Vermin aren't cowards! (at least most of them)

Started by Hickory, April 06, 2015, 09:33:40 PM

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Izeroth

 
Quote from: danflorreguba on April 18, 2015, 10:32:43 PM
Quote from: Lord_Ashenwyte on April 18, 2015, 09:43:52 AM
Quote from: Wot, wot! on April 12, 2015, 05:17:17 PM
Good points Sage :) I personally think Slagar  is a coward because he ran from the abbey after killing Methuselah. That was so sad. Also, he just always seemed to be running from danger instead of facing it head on.

That was what any sane person would do in real life. And if your opponents were more skilled than you and could and would kill you, anyone in the real world would do the same.

Quote from: danflorreguba on April 14, 2015, 10:54:17 PM


     The vermin possess little reason to push, they don't have anything really worth living for, but the woodlanders have each other, they have friends and family, a home, things they NEED to protect...

Vermin have friends and family, they have each other, the only reason they are bad are because they are supposed to be so, and as they are perceived as evil by the rest of the world, and for the fact that woodlanders are arguably more evil than than vermin.

       They hardly ever care about their friends, you trying to pin this on the woodlanders is absolutely outrageous and unfair. The vermin stereotype was developed based off of their actions, and their actions were terrible. The woodlanders had all the right to perceive them the way the do. The vermin caused their own problems, they need to fix it themselves.

The thing about woodlanders is that they're often unnecessarily violent with vermin. Case in point: The Long Patrol Hares. In numerous books, the hares go after vermin and wipe them out, even when the vermin are so scattered and weak that they pose little threat.

rrrrr

That's because the vermin might ambush someone unexpectedly. That's why Frunk became mad.
rrrrr.....

Ho arr, mateys, swimming is fun!

I had shrimp 'n' hotroot soup today.


Starla1431

While it's true that there are a lot of vermin who kill the Innocent, I think it's unfair to say that all of them do, or want to do it. Some vermin are forced. And there are times when woodlanders become too blood-thirsty.

Starla1431

Quote from: danflorreguba on April 18, 2015, 10:32:43 PM
Quote from: Lord_Ashenwyte on April 18, 2015, 09:43:52 AM
Quote from: Wot, wot! on April 12, 2015, 05:17:17 PM
Good points Sage :) I personally think Slagar  is a coward because he ran from the abbey after killing Methuselah. That was so sad. Also, he just always seemed to be running from danger instead of facing it head on.

That was what any sane person would do in real life. And if your opponents were more skilled than you and could and would kill you, anyone in the real world would do the same.

Quote from: danflorreguba on April 14, 2015, 10:54:17 PM


     The vermin possess little reason to push, they don't have anything really worth living for, but the woodlanders have each other, they have friends and family, a home, things they NEED to protect...

Vermin have friends and family, they have each other, the only reason they are bad are because they are supposed to be so, and as they are perceived as evil by the rest of the world, and for the fact that woodlanders are arguably more evil than than vermin.

       They hardly ever care about their friends, you trying to pin this on the woodlanders is absolutely outrageous and unfair. The vermin stereotype was developed based off of their actions, and their actions were terrible. The woodlanders had all the right to perceive them the way the do. The vermin caused their own problems, they need to fix it themselves.

There ARE vermin who do care about their friends, while it may be uncommon, it's there.

Dannflower Reguba

       When the vermin surrender, they stop dying. If the vermin don't surrender, they keep dying. The Long Patrol is fully inline, they show no mercy to the merciless (this is not actually true, they almost always, if not always, let the survivors go free), they bring cold, hard judgement to beasts who would disturb the peace. When you see one of the woodlanders getting brutal, it's generally personal, or a flaw, singular to that character. Woodlanders, and the Long Patrol, are NOT brutal (that would be the Rogue Crew).

       "Hardly ever," Blaggut and what's his face the stoat from Loamhedge are the two most easily identified breakers of the general rule for vermin behavior.

       I'm going to end with the wise words of Dippler the shrew, "A dead enemy, ain't an enemy no more."
"Remember, sometimes is best to be like boomerang and come back." ~ Griffen

Experience is simply the name we give our mistakes. ~ Oscar Wilde

Mistakes can make you grow - That doesn't mean you're friends. ~NF - Remember This

Wylder Treejumper

#20
Aye. As an example for hares, take their chant from Long Patrol:

O vermin if you dare, come and visit us someday,
Bring all your friends and weapons with you too.
We'll give a nice warm welcome, let nobeast living say
Cold steel was never good enough for you.

You won't find poor helpless beasts all undefended,
Like the old ones, babes and mothers that you've slain,
And you'll find that when your pleasant visit's ended,
You won't ever ever leave our shores again.

All you cowards of the land and you flotsam of the sea,
Who murder, pillage, loot when'er you please,
There's a Long Patrol a waitin', and we'll greet you cheerfully,
You'll hear us cry "Eulalia" on the breeze.

'Tis a welcome to the bullies who slay without a care
All those good and peaceful creatures who can't fight,
But perilous and dangerous the beast they call the hare,
Who stands for nought but honor and the right.

Eulalia! Eulalia! Come bring your vermin horde!
The Long Patrol awaits you, led by a Badger Lord!

Can you hardly blame hares, or woodlanders for that matter, for despising and not trusting vermin? Vermin are the personification of evil in the Redwall series. They murder, plunder, steal, and on and on. Those woodlanders who are "unnecessarily violent" really are dealing justice, though in a more heated way then, perhaps, we are used to. If you would take the tally of these vermins' lives, you would find the evidence neccessary to take them to court, convict them, and execute them all. Is this really any different? Perhaps, to come across a vermin band which you see no evidence of them ever having harmed anyone nor having attempted to harm you, and to kill them, would be unecessarily violent. But to kill vermin which have attacked you, killed many others?

You may think it cold-hearted to kill a creature pathetically whining for mercy before you... But how many times have these vermin killed honest, innocent woodlanders begging for their mercy? How many times will they should you let them go? This is the point I think you miss. It is only just that they pay for their crimes. And a mis-execution of justice will cause the executor, in such a case, to be guilty of crimes the executee commits
"'Tis the business of small minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death."
-Thomas Paine

"Integrity and firmness is all I can promise; these, be the voyage long or short, shall never forsake me although I may be deserted by all men."
-George Washington

Courage: Not only the willingness to die manfully, but also the determination to live decently.

Feles

today i shall tell the story of some squirrel (forgot the name, of course  :P) and Greypatch. So once the vermin are defeated at redwall, Greypatch, seeing defeat, retreats into the wilderness, having learned his lesson and having left Redwall for good, The squirrel goes into the wilderness, tracks him down, and kills Greypatch. There was absolutely no vendetta against Greypatch and hunting him down to kill him went against all the woodlanders stand for
I am the harbinger of the spicy rooster apocalypse,
I am the hydrogen bomb in a necktie,
I hold the flames of a thousand collapsed stars,
I am Bobracha!

Dannflower Reguba

       Greypatch the pirate, he would've gone on to do many more horrible things. Killing him was completely just (which would make it very much the woodlanders duty), not to mention his assault resulted in the deaths of Clary, Thyme, and Treefleet, so there's revenge to be considered as well (so yes, there absolutely was a vendetta). Details sir, include them please.

       Oh, and his name was Oak Tom, so you've got little to stand on if you're trying to make him out as evil because Tom is most certainly not.

       "Learned his lesson." Oh please, let's be serious for a second, when do vermin ever learn their lesson?  ::) Blaggut and Swinky (pretty sure that's the wrong name, but it's close) were the only good vermin in the series, and they always were. The only valid argument here would be Veil, and that's a very sketchy situation to go off of.

       
"Remember, sometimes is best to be like boomerang and come back." ~ Griffen

Experience is simply the name we give our mistakes. ~ Oscar Wilde

Mistakes can make you grow - That doesn't mean you're friends. ~NF - Remember This

Jetthebinturong

For the last time Dan, Flinky. I feel like I correct you on that more than I correct anyone on anything.
"In the meantime, no one should roam the camp alone. Use the buddy system."
"Understood." Will looked at Nico. "Will you be my buddy?"
"You're a dork," Nico announced.
~ The Hidden Oracle, Rick Riordan

Izeroth

 You could make an argument that Crumdun (the stoat from The Rogue Crew) did "learn his lesson."

Dannflower Reguba

       Heaven forbid that I can't remember one character's name in a series about several hundred. ::) Is Crumdun the one that ended up in a cave somewhere and we never found out what happened with him? I wasn't counting him because he was just sort of... Neutral.

       
"Remember, sometimes is best to be like boomerang and come back." ~ Griffen

Experience is simply the name we give our mistakes. ~ Oscar Wilde

Mistakes can make you grow - That doesn't mean you're friends. ~NF - Remember This

Jetthebinturong

Three times. Three. The same character, misspelled the same way three times with three a correction after each.
"In the meantime, no one should roam the camp alone. Use the buddy system."
"Understood." Will looked at Nico. "Will you be my buddy?"
"You're a dork," Nico announced.
~ The Hidden Oracle, Rick Riordan

Izeroth

Quote from: danflorreguba on May 17, 2015, 09:16:59 PM
       Heaven forbid that I can't remember one character's name in a series about several hundred. ::) Is Crumdun the one that ended up in a cave somewhere and we never found out what happened with him? I wasn't counting him because he was just sort of... Neutral.

       

Crumdun was the corsair who got captured by the long patrol. He never really does anything evil in the book, but we can assume that, being a corsair, he has done evil things in the past.

Feles

so youre telling me that just because his name is tom, that makes him good  :P

Lets remember that Greypatch was on the run from Gabool and attacked Redwall mostly out of desperation to fight somewhere to hold Gabool off.also, Greypatch was definitely not on the top of the "evil vermin" list, in fact, compared to most any captain,chief etc., he was just about as evil as any random vermin, which have been spared before, (by long Patrol hares i might add) so what exactly makes him on the "must kill" list, seeing as in any fight, causalities are sustained
also, i honestly thought him to turn out like the small vermin gang did in loamhenge, once his army had died
Lastly, i never said Oak Tom was evil, just bloodthirsty a bit
I am the harbinger of the spicy rooster apocalypse,
I am the hydrogen bomb in a necktie,
I hold the flames of a thousand collapsed stars,
I am Bobracha!

Dannflower Reguba

       Greypatch is still a pirate. He still did absolutely horrible things, of this, we can be pretty certain. Also, you're trying to use the "he wasn't as bad as the others," argument. That doesn't really stick seeing just how horrible the average vermin really is. Also, you didn't address the fact that there was indeed a revenge factor involved.

       I wasn't saying Oak Tom isn't evil because of his name. I was saying that because he's a woodlander that's very dedicated to Redwall and the protection of the innocent.
"Remember, sometimes is best to be like boomerang and come back." ~ Griffen

Experience is simply the name we give our mistakes. ~ Oscar Wilde

Mistakes can make you grow - That doesn't mean you're friends. ~NF - Remember This