Pretty sure someone probably made a forum about him. I just want to ask if it's possible he still alive during the time of the outcast of Redwall because I did some research and wildcats lifespan is about the same as a badger maybe more on average. What do you guys think
That's an interesting idea; it's never mentioned, but I don't see any reason why it couldn't have been true.
It is an interesting idea.
The best way I could think of evaluating it would be Mortspear's family. Ungatt Trunn is the antagonist in Lord Brocktree opposing the book's eponymous character. His brother is dying (I believe while very old?) at the beginning of Mossflower.
According to the Redwall wiki, Brocktree died of old age, and I always assumed he journeyed while young to the mountain.
Then, Boar is Lord at Salamandastron as Verdauga dies. Bella, Boar's daughter, is active in the struggle against Tsarmina, which means (and I never thought this through before, even though it's really cool) Brocktree's grand-daughter is at war with the niece of his own great foe.
That's...not unfavorable to the idea of on-par lifespans of wildcats.
Quote from: a crumb on September 03, 2017, 10:38:02 PM
It is an interesting idea.
The best way I could think of evaluating it would be Mortspear's family. Ungatt Trunn is the antagonist in Lord Brocktree opposing the book's eponymous character. His brother is dying (I believe while very old?) at the beginning of Mossflower.
According to the Redwall wiki, Brocktree died of old age, and I always assumed he journeyed while young to the mountain.
Then, Boar is Lord at Salamandastron as Verdauga dies. Bella, Boar's daughter, is active in the struggle against Tsarmina, which means (and I never thought this through before, even though it's really cool) Brocktree's grand-daughter is at war with the niece of his own great foe.
That's...not unfavorable to the idea of on-par lifespans of wildcats.
I don't think Brocktree was young because somewhere in the book he said he left his son encharge of Mossflower and you would think Boar would be an adult during that time
True. Also there's Stonepaw being quite old to imply Brocktree isn't a young badger.
Conceptually, the impression I always had was that young badgers, generally male, start feeling the call and go questing for the mountain. If Brocktree wasn't that young, though, then Mossflower might be quite a bit closer in time to Lord Brocktree than perhaps generally assumed.
I think it was mentioned that Brocktree was "in his prime". I don't know what age exactly that's supposed to be--but to me it always seemed like late 30s early 40s.
Like to add something ever notice Julian being the last cat in Mossflower and the ones in High Rhulein don't count because wasn't in Mossflower
Indeed.
Do you have any theories why that is?
Quote from: The Skarzs on September 27, 2017, 02:40:03 AM
Do you have any theories why that is?
[/quote
Personally I don't know because we know they were other cats in Mossflower besides wildcats and plus Julian said he was the last of the Gingivere. So my two theories are
1. They're still around just not in the stories.
2. They left
Hmm.
Well, from what I saw the cats in Mossflower were always few in number and solitary by nature. Because of this I think it's possible that they just all died off. I mean, they couldn't have had very good mating prospects in Mossflower. I do think that because of this it's probable that they left, too.
Good points. Probably went searching for others and left.
There were never that many to begin with.
I say they did a mix of leaving an' dying.
I believe they went off to live elsewhere (mainly north) in their dwindling numbers.
All of you have a good point of not being many and there was a pretty large gap between Mossflower and Redwall history wise
True.
I wonder if the cats in High Rhulain had any connection to Ungatt Trunn and Verduga.
I don't know if color has to do with anything, but Julius was orange and was related to Tsarmina.
Riggu was gray, and Trunn was brown.
Quote from: The Skarzs on September 27, 2017, 05:48:36 PM
True.
I wonder if the cats in High Rhulain had any connection to Ungatt Trunn and Verduga.
They could be like their ancestors use to be part of their father's king at least the wildcats I think the feral cats were from farther south
Quote from: Ashleg on September 04, 2017, 09:10:25 PM
I think it was mentioned that Brocktree was "in his prime". I don't know what age exactly that's supposed to be--but to me it always seemed like late 30s early 40s.
This would make sense. As at this age Brocktree could still be "in his prime", albeit at the later stages of it, but at the same time still have an adult son to leave in charge of Mossflower- as it is conceivable that he could have fathered Boar when he was like 20 or thereabouts. It could also explain why Stonepaw was an extremely old badger, as he might have fathered Brocktree in his late 30s or maybe even around 40. Which would mean he was in his late 70s or 80 at the time of the novel Lord Brocktree. Since Ungatt Trunn was about the same age as Lord Brocktree and Verduga was his younger brother- it would make sense that Verduga was around 10 years younger than Brocktree/Trunn and 10 years older than Boar. This would fit with Mossflower as in that book Verduga had atrophied and was in pretty poor shape (although it is unclear if this was due to old age or illness or being poisoned by Fortuna or a combination of all the above). It is probable that he was in his 70s in Mossflower while Boar was in his 60s. Boar was described in Mossflower as an old badger but he hadn't yet gotten to the stage of being infirm and could still physically function just fine so him being in his 60s would fit pretty well.
The only thing with Bella and also Cregga was that they were the 2 longest lived creatures in Redwall. So its not inconceivable that she was over a 100 by the time of Outcast of Redwall. Given the fact that she was in middle aged during the time of Mossflower and Gingivere was a young adult it could go both ways I guess as to Gingivere being alive at the time of Outcast of Redwall.
But it is strange how between Mossflower and Redwall there is no mention of wildcats in Mossflower despite the Gingivere line being alive and present in Mossflower during this time. Another factor is Gingivere and Sandoval, and even Tsarmina, were not "cannibals" or they did not eat mice or other woodlanders. While Julian at one point, earlier in his life, did eat mice. While he is never described as a cannibal, going by Redwall criteria he was- as the criteria for being a cannibal seems to be eating other "sentient" species. Hence why Gulo and his horde were described as cannibals. A wolverine of fox eating a hare, water rate, squirrel etc.. is not more "cannibalistic" than a cat eating a mouse would be. Julian was also not depicted as a wild cat but probably more akin to a feral cat so interbreeding between the two in Mossflower probably did take place at a pretty extensive scale. Furthermore, given all this it is also probable that Gingivere's descendants may not have been as benign as he was- hence why Redwallers might come to avoid them or even alternatively view them as a threat even.
Take the cannibalism with the cat thing as a grain of salt, that was before Brian decided to make his world how it was for the rest of the series.
But why should we? Redwall was still a part of the series and just as canon as the other books. Why shouldn't Julian actually be a cannibal? ;D
There are many reasons we should, mainly because of the out-of-place barn, the uncanny size difference, and oh, I don't know, because it wasn't treated like cannibalism as it would have been in one of the more developed books.
The most major one of all, though, is how the rest of the series disproves it by never having a similar sequence again. I believe there is a thread about this--many people feel the original is not canon as it was not originally intended to produce a series.
All of that, yes.
Whenever cannibalism re-emerges in the series after the first book, it is seen as a particularly villainous, evil, and horrifying behavior. Even vermin who don't engage in it are shocked by it -it is very uncommon. In the first book, it is just an offhanded thing. The way things are. Nothing special. Just the nature of things for a cat. Very different from its conception when it re-emerges as a concept in its own right (which happens in Rakkety Tam, unless I'm forgetting something prior to that).
I've thought many times that it would be cool to have a rewritten version of the first book, removing all the out-of-place elements. The ones that really annoy me are the horse and cart and, yeah, the giant cannibal cat who lives out in Mossflower.
The cat thing annoyed me before I even read the other books. >:(
The horse thing, ehhh, not until I realized that it was out of place. But in the first book itself it did not annoy me. But I can see how it would be annoying.
Quote from: Jukka the Sling on October 01, 2017, 02:38:30 AM
I've thought many times that it would be cool to have a rewritten version of the first book, removing all the out-of-place elements. The ones that really annoy me are the horse and cart and, yeah, the giant cannibal cat who lives out in Mossflower.
The random beaver is even better than the cannibal cat, imo. Like, that guy would've been useful in the fight against Cluny besides just producing a crossbow.
Though, having this conversation makes me realize how much I enjoyed Redwall's unique dynamics. There's something cool about the logistics, specifically. Where everyone was, about how hundreds of vermin could just somehow be found, beavers out nearby...the world was very alive. More full.
I'm the only one who does not remember a beaver.
The Beaver (http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Beaver)
And the wiki actually notes he was described as "equally well-built beast" as Constance.
What the bloody heck.
What page was he on?
I wander if Brian forgets or changes thinks for the sake of the story because in Redwall and cat and owl takes out a large number of vermin but in Mossflower and mouse takes out a cat
Pretty much. The good guys are as strong as they need to be.
Quote from: The Skarzs on October 01, 2017, 04:48:59 AM
Pretty much. The good guys are as strong as they need to be.
It seems that sometimes the good guys get too strong.
Ditto.
Quote from: The Skarzs on October 01, 2017, 04:48:59 AM
Pretty much. The good guys are as strong as they need to be.
I hate it when someone does that