Something I've been curious about and thought about be interesting to talk about.
Let's say you were in charge of a Redwall TV Show. What changes would you make to make the Tales more family friendly and streamlined. Here are some ideas I have:
General changes:
- Like Nelvana before me, make things less violent and brutal while still letting characters play for keeps.
- Make various performances, songs, games, and stuff for fun shorter or just plain cut.
- Giving minor characters bigger roles or just plain cutting them.
- Making riddles shorter and solved sooner. Book readers (and video game players) may have time and tolerance for that, but not most TV viewers.
- Make conversations less shorter & more to the point.
Mossflower:
- Change the prologue and epilogue from Bella telling the story to Gonff Jr. to Grandpa Matthias telling it to little Martin II
- Do more with the Gloomer. In fact, I think it would work better if he took Stormfin with him. Stormfin was never seen again after that, so may as well kill him off to let Gloomer live up to some of the hype.
- A reference to make Ripfang the same one from Lord Brocktree. I know Jacques himself said that they were different people, but I really don't understand why not make them one and the same. (there are
- When Argular first appears, Tsarmina and Ashleg have an expositionary conversation about him and he retreats after a couple of close shots from Tsarmina (may describe in more detail later)
- Have Fortuna shot as she makes her back to Kotir in a good mood and talking about a brighter future instead of begging for her life.
- Up the romance between Gonff and Columbine
- Show the bats rescuing Martin & Co., and maybe have them conscious when it happens.
- Have them kill the owl at Mount Batpit instead of chasing it off. Still have Dinny take out its roost, but let Martin and Lord Cayvear distract it in an action scene.
- Martin's backstory reworked to incorporate elements from Martin the Warrior and maybe the Legend of Luke
- Outcast of Redwall:
- a brief flashback explaining how Sunflash was captured by Swarrt when he left to fight the Army of a Thousand Eyes. Surely I'm not the only one curious about how he traded one goal for another like that.
- Cut the Wraith. That was just pointless.
- Replace Warpclaw with Zigu. Why have two shortlived pirates with small roles when you can have one with a decent sized one?
- Have Balefur, Shamus Damsontongue & their clan be the foxes harassing the Lingl-Dubbo family, then join Swarrt to help get revenge.
- Rework Balefur's death by having Swarrt pretend to submit to him, then lead him to the quarry. For the cherry on top, the last thing Balefur does is call out to Swarrt for help, only for the ferret to smile and leave just before the adders attack.
- On the flipside, have Balefur survive to fill in Brool & Renn's role
- Do more with poor Bluefin. I was thinking of having her first appear as her father's timid servant, have her react sadly to his death. Have her survive that harsh winter, but be weak. She'd carry Veil's litter instead of an anonymous old ratwife. Have her suffer the same fate, but barely survive. The woodlanders take her to Redwall, where she dies as Bryony is tending to her. Her last words are to take care of her baby, which would provide a stronger, more interesting motivation for Bryony to care for Veil.
- Make Veil more morally ambiguous.
- Cut Wildag and Lardtail, especially because of their deaths
- Cut Krakulat and the gang war between him and Swarrt. It just felt like busy work
- Cut that bit with the juvenile reptiles
- Cut Bryony's encounter with the robin
- Cut the annoying watervole
- Maybe cut Folrig & Ruddle
- Cut Wudbeak and have Skalrath tell the Redwallers about what's happening at Salamandastron while recruiting otters & squirrels. Might even go so far as to cut the characters who showed up to help at the battle and let Skipperjo, Redfarl, and Jodd appear among the reinforcements.
- Have Bryony cope with Veil's death in a better way besides throwing him under the bus.
- Have the Prologue and Epilogue feature Russano in place of Rilbrook
Will post more later.
What about you guys. What changes would YOU make to the Tales of Redwall to make them work for animation?
I would take out the whole circus thing they added in Redwall. It was good, but it was kind of a much used new girl comes in which makes old girl jealous.
Hmm, instead of cutting bits of the book and adding junk filler, I'd try to keep the plotlines as close to the books as I could.
I agree. The good thing is that they didn't change too much.
Quote from: JangoCoolguy on April 07, 2014, 11:47:20 PM
- A reference to make Ripfang the same one from Lord Brocktree. I know Jacques himself said that they were different people, but I really don't understand why not make them one and the same.
That would be a good idea, except for the fact that too much time has elapsed between
Lord Brocktree and
Mossflower for them to be the same rat.
But I did like the idea of Bluefen dying at Redwall and telling Bryony to take care of Veil.
Pearls of Lutra:
- An opening scene about the attack on Holt Lutra.
- In fact, some brief scenes that actually SHOW what happened with Graylunk and the pearls ending up in the abbey.
- Do more with the Monitors. Surely I'm not the only person annoyed/disappointed that Jacques constantly talked about them being fierce, ferocious flesh eaters only to have them go down like scaly chumps little better than the other lizards in the series. For example, just have Lask take "ten of his best" with him instead of having half the group die by circumstance, or not have as many captured & killed by the Wave Brethren.
- A way to visualize Ublaz hypno powers
- Make Grath a little less spiteful
- Streamline the gang war between Ublaz and the Wave Brethren
- Streamline the hunt for the pearls
- Have Barranca somehow SEE Conva's death (which would be interesting to actually watch), which would give him even more reason to revolt.
- Play up Grall's role. At the very least have him talk. Or else cut him & the other sea gulls all together.
- Either have poor Bladeribb die trying to help the Redwallers when they encounter that iceberg, or die trying to escape (which might be more appropriate).
- Give Romsca & Durral's relationship some more time/depth, and show the Monitors & corsairs squaring off just before the you-know-what hits the fans.
- Have Ublaz die a better death. Maybe have the snake go after Martin II and bite Ublaz instead?
Quote from: JangoCoolguy on April 14, 2014, 07:44:35 PM
Pearls of Lutra:
- An opening scene about the attack on Holt Lutra.
In a book, I think this works as an unseen backstory. The weight of tragedy in books is often in what you
don't see (i.e. the depiction of the massacre of Luke's tribe by showing instead the immediate aftermath of it when Luke walks on scene). But in a visual setting, absolutely; this would be a great device.
Quote- In fact, some brief scenes that actually SHOW what happened with Graylunk and the pearls ending up in the abbey.
I agree again, though I'd consider showing these scenes as memories/slowly revealed details rather than showing them in real time. In the book, the events with Graylunk are as much backstory as the attack on Holt Lutra--the book starts after both of them have taken their course. I think if you fill in the details between the attack on Holt Lutra before the beginning of the book, it might present pacing issues. Graylunk would move from plot device to main character.
Don't get me wrong; that in and of itself would be awesome. Graylunk's stories is one of the most tragic in the series, I feel. But if you give him too much focus, it's almost like two main stories instead of one.
But... arrgh. I don't know. It could work shown in real time if we want the movie/show to take on more of an "classical epic" feel than an "adventure yarn" feel.
Quote- Do more with the Monitors. Surely I'm not the only person annoyed that Jacques constantly talked about them being fierce, ferocious flesh eaters only to have them go down like scaly chumps just as often. For example, just have Flask take "ten of his best" with him instead of having half the group die by circumstance.
Yes. I can't remember being annoyed the last time I read the book, but any chance to turn one of the more unusual set of villains in the series into Ringwaith-level monsters--cool.
Quote- A way to visualize Ublaz hypno powers
Yeah. Though again, in the book, I think what happened works.
Quote- Make Grath a little less spiteful
This one I'm not sure about. I don't necessarily condone Grath's being so harshly bent on revenge, but I think her personality kind of walks hand-in-hand with her ability to hunt down vermin in general. In a sense, if she becomes too soft, it might be hard to buy her transformation from Holt member to unstoppable avenger. Beyond that, giving a character like hers a hard edge can make her stand out--maybe even make her
more believable than having those edges softened. I think the way to show what's morally wrong with what she's doing is to have more of the character's around her take issue with it (like in
The Count of Monte Cristo and/or present some of the results of her actions in a less vindicating way.
With that said, if I'm remembering correctly--and it has been a while since I read the book--her spitefulness can make her hard to like, and that's certainly a
huge problem for the main character.
This is why I say I'm not sure. Maybe there's simply no choice. We do
have to be able to invest in Grath. Period. But maybe the hard edge can be kept, and it's all in the presentation of those edges.
Quote- Streamline the gang war between Ublaz and the Wave Brethren
In a movie or book, yeah--probably.
Quote- Streamline the hunt for the pearls
What do you mean, exactly?
EDIT: Oh, right. I see what you're saying. And, yeah, this makes sense. I suppose I don't feel very strongly about it one way or the other right now.
Quote- Have Barrac somehow SEE Conva's death (which would be interesting to actually watch), which would give him even more reason to revolt.
Absolutely! It would add dimension to his character.
Quote- Play up Grall's role. At the very least have him talk. Or else cut him & the other sea gulls all together.
- Either have poor Bladeribb die trying to help the Redwallers when they encounter that iceberg, or die trying to escape (which might be more appropriate).
To my shame, I don't remember either of these characters well enough to comment, except to say that both of these suggestions seem very good on first impression.
Quote- Give Romsca & Durral's relationship some more time/depth,
Deepen the effects of Romsca's eventual change. Yeah.
Quoteand show the Monitors & corsairs squaring off
Certainly makes sense.
Quote- Have Ublaz die a better death. Maybe have the snake go after Martin II and bite Ublaz instead?
If you mean that the snake bites Ulbaz by accident, then here's one I disagree with. Ulbaz's death is a case of ironic retribution. He spent the whole book trying to control everyone, but in the end, he was still dealing with a force whose threat to him he should have given more respect--free will. A bit more literally, he should have given the danger of the snake more respect. And, personally, I think that if the snake went after Martin and then bit Ulbaz accidentally, it would take away some of the significance of Ulbaz's controlling the snake earlier in the story. Apparently, even when the snake isn't controlled, it chooses to be on Ulbaz's side.
If you mean that the snake intentionally bites Ulbaz and just looks as though it's going to bite Martin, then, yeah, the ironic retribution is certainly still saved. I still personally like the "chance" involved in Ulbaz's death when the snake bites him because it thinks its life is threatened--the snake remains more a force of nature and less a character. But then, conversely, having it be deliberate and planned does turn the snake into more of a character, and that obviously has merit.
Rakkety Tam
-Make Araltum and Idga less whiny and incompetent. I mean, if they are so weak, why does anyone obey them anyway?
-Show the scenes where Gulo and his troops kill the hares with the drum and the squirrels. It would make them much scarier then just hearing that they are cannibals.
-Streamline the scenes where Doogy and Yoofus go off together.
You know what, I really don't want to make any changes. Myself, knowing that Bryan thought of everything and he being the one that wrote the books makes me not think of changing anything. I think it's perfect how it is :).
Quote from: Tam and Martin on April 16, 2014, 07:57:29 PM
You know what, I really don't want to make any changes. Myself, knowing that Bryan thought of everything and he being the one that wrote the books makes me not think of changing anything. I think it's perfect how it is :).
Yeah, but you could always show scenes that were only mentioned in the book.
Quote from: Shadowed One on April 16, 2014, 10:31:29 PM
Quote from: Tam and Martin on April 16, 2014, 07:57:29 PM
You know what, I really don't want to make any changes. Myself, knowing that Bryan thought of everything and he being the one that wrote the books makes me not think of changing anything. I think it's perfect how it is :).
Yeah, but you could always show scenes that were only mentioned in the book.
I know but there has never been a desire in me to change anything. Just me I guess.
Quote from: Tam and Martin on April 16, 2014, 07:57:29 PM
You know what, I really don't want to make any changes. Myself, knowing that Bryan thought of everything and he being the one that wrote the books makes me not think of changing anything. I think it's perfect how it is :).
I'm sorry, but changes to the Tales are necessary and nigh-unavoidable. Reading a story and watching it are different things in general. What works in a book doesn't work on film. There are things that would HAVE to be changed to make them more kid/family friendly, more streamlined, and more cinematic.
The TV Show had a LOT of changes from big to small to medium (http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Redwall_TV_Series#Differences_From_The_Books (http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Redwall_TV_Series#Differences_From_The_Books)), so adaptations to other Tales are needed as well.
I saw it and thought that was it, but then I scrolled down. Some were minor like 15 mi. and 10 mi.
Quote from: JangoCoolguy on April 17, 2014, 01:13:25 AM
Quote from: Tam and Martin on April 16, 2014, 07:57:29 PM
You know what, I really don't want to make any changes. Myself, knowing that Bryan thought of everything and he being the one that wrote the books makes me not think of changing anything. I think it's perfect how it is :).
I'm sorry, but changes to the Tales are necessary and nigh-unavoidable. Reading a story and watching it are different things in general. What works in a book doesn't work on film. There are things that would HAVE to be changed to make them more kid/family friendly, more streamlined, and more cinematic.
The TV Show had a LOT of changes from big to small to medium (http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Redwall_TV_Series#Differences_From_The_Books (http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Redwall_TV_Series#Differences_From_The_Books)), so adaptations to other Tales are needed as well.
Of course you would have to change some things if you were to make it for different audiences but I just never wanted to change anything really.
Quote from: Shadowed One on April 15, 2014, 01:06:06 PM
Rakkety Tam
-Make Araltum and Idga less whiny and incompetent. I mean, if they are so weak, why does anyone obey them anyway?
Ya know, you've got something there. That's a good point :)
Quote-Show the scenes where Gulo and his troops kill the hares with the drum and the squirrels. It would make them much scarier then just hearing that they are cannibals.
I don't know...almost no one wants to see cartoon animals being butchered and eaten alive XP
However, they could hint it better. For example, they could have the squirrels parading and singing, then the white vermin appear to chant "Gulo", then a giant, roaring silhouette covers the screen for it to go black to the sounds of screams (:<
Quote-Streamline the scenes where Doogy and Yoofus go off together.
Oh yes. For starters, cut that bit with the random vermin gang and dormouse family. It was too late in the story to be throwing in new characters and situations!
No hair (human hair on the head). It just looks weird. :P ;)
^ I'd agree with that! That wasn't intended in the books, as they were still meant to look pretty natural as animals, so it's a bit odd for the series.
Quote from: PluggFiretail on April 26, 2014, 01:44:52 AM
No hair (human hair on the head). It just looks weird. :P ;)
How so??? Examples, please
Quote from: JangoCoolguy on April 28, 2014, 09:42:15 PMHow so??? Examples, please
I think it happens mostly in
Martin the Warrior:
(http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081204001229/redwall/images/d/d9/RoseOfNoonvale.jpg)
(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/rowanoak_4385.JPG)
Personally, I'll admit that the
idea of animating animals with head-hair sounds like a bad one to me, too. But somehow, the way the artists managed it in the show actually doesn't bother me too badly.
^ Not to mention Clogg's dreadlocks ;)
Quote from: Blazemane on April 29, 2014, 12:37:55 AM
Personally, I'll admit that the idea of animating animals with head-hair sounds like a bad one to me, too. But somehow, the way the artists managed it in the show actually doesn't bother me too badly.
I think it works. Helps them stand out and tell them apart.
The badger looks okay with long hair in that picture, but Rose doesn't. Maybe because the hair colour is the same as her fur so it's like a weird random growth of fur behind the head. :P
Loamhedge
- A brief opening scene or flashback about Lonna's initial encounter with Raga Bol
- Imply that Bragoon & Saro were back at Redwall for a few days. I know I wouldn't come home only to almost immediately head out on a dangerous journey. Plus, this would give their relationship with Martha more depth
- When old Phredd talks about the events of Mattimeo, a mini-flashback is in order!
- Cut one of the weasel archers. One could do the job just fine
- Have said weasel archer killed by the sea rats for killing Junty. It amazes me that Jacques let vermin get away with murder, especially of an Abbey dweller! :o Plus, it would be a good way to make Badredd's gang bow before a superior pimp!
- Make Horty a little less obnoxious
- Maybe cut Toobledum
- Cut the bit with the vulture and riddles.
- Maybe cut the Guoraf, who may just be the most pointless shrew group ever
- An otter who's an anagram of Arbruc, Shoredog and Garfo
- Have the returning questers break the news about Bragoon & Saro to the Abbey beasts, which would be more emotional, appropriate and sensible than it being reported by shrews who weren't even there
- Cut the encounter with the adder, or have Bragoon & Saro kill it instead of a random vulture (which would be cool)
- Somehow SHOW Martin telling Lonna that the sea rats are at Redwall
- Let the returning questers bring Cosbro back to Redwall with them. The poor old fellow kinda deserves it, ya know? Especially since almost everybeast else who's had a hard life get to live happily ever after in the abbey (Man, Jacques must've really *bleep* hated rabbits)
- When the heroes first cross the Abyss, have the later mentioned 3 guards actually attack them and be killed to better introduce Kharanjul & his horde. Speaking of which, have Kharanjul have that sweet "double voice" he had in the audiobook
- Have one rat go after Flinky's gang instead of two to make Lonna look like less of a jerk. Would even use it to give the gang a different send off
- Have Kharanjul deliver the fatal blow. It could go like this: just as Bragoon & Saro send the bridge tumbling down, Kharanjul swipes at them with his trident as he goes down (maybe in slow motion)
- Cut having Martha save Abbot Carrul and have her walk much later after hearing the verse Bragoon & Saro wrote. Never liked how she just randomly started walking because the plot "needed" it, and I know I'm not alone. And I feel it would be more appropriate she walk because of the cure that was promised to her.
Taggerung
- Make Tagg more ambiguous/rough around the edges. He'd been raised by vermin most of his life, so he needs to act like it. Heck, he was more goody-goody than most of the otters in this series!
- Cut Madd and Botarus
- By extension, cut Fwirl's backstory. Or at least simplify it
- Shorten and streamline the hunt for those cloth stripes around the abbey. Maybe even cut it altogether..
- Cut Ruskem
- Have Antigra lead the search party. She killed Sawney, so it's only fitting she take his place as main villain. Especially since she was so ambitious and vengeful. Shoot, it could even work to have her nudge Gruven into being smarter, meaner and more ambitious.
- Have Ribrow killed while trying to escape
- Cut Grobait
- Cut Ruggan Bor & the Juskabor. It was too late in the story to introduce major characters and he left as suddenly as he entered...and was defeated by a deus ex machine to boot! Maybe have Gruven lead an attack on Redwall instead?
- Maybe cut the bankvoles
- Likely cut Broggle's stutter
-SHOW the Dillypins vending off the vermin
- Have Deyna come back from Rukky Garge sooner. Or just cut her all together and let the Redwallers fix him up. Seemed dumb to me to call in a specialist--especially so late in the story--when Redwall could've had some beasts in its population who could likely do the same job.
Quote from: 321tumbler on April 07, 2014, 11:50:51 PM
I would take out the whole circus thing they added in Redwall. It was good, but it was kind of a much used new girl comes in which makes old girl jealous.
Yeah, so would I...I mean, there was NEVER a circus in the book!
Dude, Jango, what you're saying is EXACTLY WHY I don't WANT to see any other Redwall Tales turned into TV.
Cut even a little out, and you're killing the book itself, killing all the emotion, the suspense, the beauty, the sights and tastes and smells, and replacing it with washed-out, TV-beloved garbage. Especially the "Cut the Riddles and Poems" one, and only because some viewers might get a little bored waiting TWO FRIGGIN MINUTES to hear it? Redwall lives and breathes riddles and poems, mate-You'd be one heck of a good, if not cutthroat screenwriter, but IF YOU EVER GET THE RIGHTS TO THIS SERIES AND YOU'RE IN THAT POSITION, DON'T TEAR APART THE SERIES, no matter how "popular" and "kiddie-friendly" they'll be.
Leave them as books, or as very lengthy HBO-style episodes, or as audio-recordings, BUT NOT LIKE THIS.
Don't go Nelvana on this, brother...
the problem with turning books into movies is that it is impossible to make a good movie and leave the storyline intact- it happens with every adaption: Harry Potter, *shudder* Eragon, etc.
Also, a movie will never be as pure as the story in the readers' imagination, just as the book will never be as pure in words as it is in the writer's mind.
Quote from: Jewel Thief on June 11, 2014, 07:22:23 AM
Dude, Jango, what you're saying is EXACTLY WHY I don't WANT to see any other Redwall Tales turned into TV.
Cut even a little out, and you're killing the book itself, killing all the emotion, the suspense, the beauty, the sights and tastes and smells, and replacing it with washed-out, TV-beloved garbage. Especially the "Cut the Riddles and Poems" one, and only because some viewers might get a little bored waiting TWO FRIGGIN MINUTES to hear it? Redwall lives and breathes riddles and poems, mate-You'd be one heck of a good, if not cutthroat screenwriter, but IF YOU EVER GET THE RIGHTS TO THIS SERIES AND YOU'RE IN THAT POSITION, DON'T TEAR APART THE SERIES, no matter how "popular" and "kiddie-friendly" they'll be.
Leave them as books, or as very lengthy HBO-style episodes, or as audio-recordings, BUT NOT LIKE THIS.
Don't go Nelvana on this, brother...
I'm sorry you feel that way, but that's just the way it is. What works in a novel does not work on screen. Like, oh...how Jacques would put key information in the very prose, which ONLY works in a book.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: the Tales of Redwall are about cute & cuddly (and not so cute and cuddly) animals literally going medieval on each other with a lot of death and violence...which only got worse as the series went on (in the end even the Redwallers were borderline dicks who didn't mind killing in the least :'( ). That's a big part of the keeps the series from being more popular and that needs to be fixed for other media. I actually LIKE how the TV Show made the stories less barbarous and bloody than the books, but still had characters play for keeps.
You bring up all the poems & riddles taking "two friggin' minutes"? That's two minutes that could be moving the plot forward or giving someone development. Plus, it would be a LOT more than 2 minutes because there are ton of those things and those minutes would REALLY add up. Heck, I get annoyed with some of those in the books/audiobooks.
You don't like my ideas? Then stick to the source material. These specially are made with people who haven't read the books in mind.
Every book MUST go through such changes to be more streamlined and cinematic...though some changes go better than others.
You mention "lengthy HBO-style episodes", but there are many differences--however small & subtle--between
Game of Thrones and
A Song of Ice and Fire...
(GoT will soon end up becoming a different story from the books,
Fullmetal Alchemist style!)
I personally would NOT want a kiddie Redwall show like Nelvana did, I'd want it as violent and heartbreaking as the books, like the British Watership Down movie
Quote- Like Nelvana before me, make things less violent and brutal while still letting characters play for keeps.
Already addressed this one
Quote- Make various performances, songs, games, and stuff for fun shorter or just plain cut.
For some I agree, others I don't
Quote- Giving minor characters bigger roles or just plain cutting them.
If you cut the minor characters it'll remove all the worldbuilding, minor characters make it seem like the world actually could exist
Quote- Making riddles shorter and solved sooner. Book readers (and video game players) may have time and tolerance for that, but not most TV viewers.
Then TV viewers need some darn patience! Riddles and puzzles are the very soul of Redwall and are usually the thing that drives the plot
Quote- Make conversations less shorter & more to the point.
First of all "less shorter" means longer and to which point exactly? Exposition? Plot drive? Cutting everything that makes the books what they are?
Mossflower, let's see
Quote- Change the prologue and epilogue from Bella telling the story to Gonff Jr. to Grandpa Matthias telling it to little Martin II
No, I don't want a continuation of the Nelvana series, the way they handled prologues and epilogues was terrible
Quote- Do more with the Gloomer. In fact, I think it would work better if he took Stormfin with him. Stormfin was never seen again after that, so may as well kill him off to let Gloomer live up to some of the hype.
I disagree but I think they should actually show us the fight and possibly make it longer
Quote- A reference to make Ripfang the same one from Lord Brocktree. I know Jacques himself said that they were different people, but I really don't understand why not make them one and the same.
Not really possible unless a Lord Brocktree is made before it
Quote- When Argular first appears, Tsarmina and Ashleg have an expositionary conversation about him and he retreats after a couple of close shots from Tsarmina (may describe in more detail later)
First off *Argulor, secondly this is one of the few things I agree with you on
Quote- Have Fortuna shot as she makes her back to Kotir in a good mood and talking about a brighter future instead of begging for her life.
No, the begging for her life scene shows how weak-willed and ready to betray she is
Quote- Up the romance between Gonff and Columbine
Why? It's not primarily going to be tween girls who love romance watching these, I'll tell you that now
Quote- Show the bats rescuing Martin & Co., and maybe have them conscious when it happens.
Yes to the first, no to the second
Quote- Have them kill the owl at Mount Batpit instead of chasing it off. Still have Dinny take out its roost, but let Martin and Lord Cayvear distract it in an action scene.
Supremely OOC
Quote- Martin's backstory reworked to incorporate elements from Martin the Warrior and maybe the Legend of Luke
Reworked? No, the whole point of that was that "Martin is lying to these people because the past is too painful"
Outcast
Quote- a brief flashback explaining how Sunflash was captured by Swarrt when he left to fight the Army of a Thousand Eyes. Surely I'm not the only one curious about how he traded one goal for another like that.
Yeah, that makes sense
Quote- Cut the Wraith. That was just pointless.
Nah, I like the Wraith, he's an interesting character
Quote- Replace Warpclaw with Zigu. Why have two shortlived pirates with small roles when you can have one with a decent sized one?
I can't remember who Warpclaw is so I don't really care
Quote- Have Balefur, Shamus Damsontongue & their clan be the foxes harassing the Lingl-Dubbo family, then join Swarrt to help get revenge.
First of all, her name is just Sham, second, no their story was good. One thing I would change would be to show the Gorge Foxes fighting the crows
Quote- Rework Balefur's death by having Swarrt pretend to submit to him, then lead him to the quarry. For the cherry on top, the last thing Balefur does is call out to Swarrt for help, only for the ferret to smile and leave just before the adders attack.
No, it was fine as it was, the "he dies a coward" thing was the point
Quote- On the flipside, have Balefur survive to fill in Brool & Renn's role
Nah, Balefur has to die
Quote- Do more with poor Bluefin. I was thinking of having her first appear as her father's timid servant, have her react sadly to his death. Have her survive that harsh winter, but be weak. She'd carry Veil's litter instead of an anonymous old ratwife. Have her suffer the same fate, but barely survive. The woodlanders take her to Redwall, where she dies as Bryony is tending to her. Her last words are to take care of her baby, which would provide a stronger, more interesting motivation for Bryony to care for Veil.
Yeah, I like this one
Quote- Make Veil more morally ambiguous.
What do you mean? He seemed pretty ambiguous to me
Quote- Cut Wildag and Lardtail, especially because of their deaths
Since I want a darker, grittier tone to the TV series, I'd leave this in
Quote- Cut Krakulat and the gang war between him and Swarrt. It just felt like busy work
No, that bit was fun
Quote- Cut that bit with the juvenile reptiles
No, that was important to actually establish Sunflash as strong and powerful
Quote- Cut Bryony's encounter with the robin
Don't remember that bit
Quote- Cut the annoying watervole
Is that the "Smashed to ferrety bits" one? If so, I'd keep him, he's insane and cruel
Quote- Maybe cut Folrig & Ruddle
No I love those two
Quote- Cut Wudbeak and have Skalrath tell the Redwallers about what's happening at Salamandastron while recruiting otters & squirrels. Might even go so far as to cut the characters who showed up to help at the battle and let Skipperjo, Redfarl, and Jodd appear among the reinforcements.
Don't really care about this one but I'd rather keep as close to the books as possible
Quote- Have Bryony cope with Veil's death in a better way besides throwing him under the bus.
Meh
Quote- Have the Prologue and Epilogue feature Russano in place of Rilbrook
No, Rilbrook's cool
Quote from: Jetthebinturong on June 26, 2014, 05:43:07 PM
I personally would NOT want a kiddie Redwall show like Nelvana did, I'd want it as violent and heartbreaking as the books, like the British Watership Down movie
You realize that plenty of adults don't want violent and heartbreaking, let alone kids, right?
And you realize that the WSD movie is very different from the book, right?
QuoteQuote- Giving minor characters bigger roles or just plain cutting them.
If you cut the minor characters it'll remove all the worldbuilding, minor characters make it seem like the world actually could exist
One can easily build the world without a lot of nigh-pointless, forgettable characters cluttering up the place
QuoteQuote- Making riddles shorter and solved sooner. Book readers (and video game players) may have time and tolerance for that, but not most TV viewers.
Then TV viewers need some darn patience! Riddles and puzzles are the very soul of Redwall and are usually the thing that drives the plot
Redwall's very soul is its characters & stories, not puzzle game nonsense that would be in danger of being a chore to watch. And it's the characters and their actions that drive the plot.
QuoteQuote- Make conversations less shorter & more to the point.
First of all "less shorter" means longer and to which point exactly? Exposition? Plot drive? Cutting everything that makes the books what they are?
To keep the action going. The previous TV show did us the favor of making characters a little less chatty. More talk, less rock! You say cutting everything that makes the books what they are? Well, I say the books would be better without whole paragraphs--sometimes the better part of a chapter--of people standing around chatting.
QuoteQuote- Change the prologue and epilogue from Bella telling the story to Gonff Jr. to Grandpa Matthias telling it to little Martin II
No, I don't want a continuation of the Nelvana series, the way they handled prologues and epilogues was terrible
Who ever said anything about a continuation ??? That's ship's sailed, sunk and become a coral reef. I'm just really wanted to throw in a cameo by beloved character (not to mention help set up Pearls of Lutra)
QuoteQuote- A reference to make Ripfang the same one from Lord Brocktree. I know Jacques himself said that they were different people, but I really don't understand why not make them one and the same.
Not really possible unless a Lord Brocktree is made before it
Oh, it could come later like the book ;). Besides, it would only be a line or two the viewers/non-fans wouldn't get anyways
QuoteQuote- Have Fortuna shot as she makes her back to Kotir in a good mood and talking about a brighter future instead of begging for her life.
No, the begging for her life scene shows how weak-willed and ready to betray she is
There are plenty of scenes that can do that--as well her talking about being rewarded for selling CORIM out--without the woodlanders murdering an unarmed, pleading old lady
QuoteQuote- Martin's backstory reworked to incorporate elements from Martin the Warrior and maybe the Legend of Luke
Reworked? No, the whole point of that was that "Martin is lying to these people because the past is too painful"
Really ??? I hadn't heard that. I thought it was Jacques inability to ties tales together better...
QuoteQuote- Cut the Wraith. That was just pointless.
Nah, I like the Wraith, he's an interesting character
Interesting yes, significant no. Take out that scene the story would still be the same. Not to mention there's something awkward about having a supposedly [cool person] stealth assassin go down like Wile E. Coyote -_-
QuoteQuote- Have Balefur, Shamus Damsontongue & their clan be the foxes harassing the Lingl-Dubbo family, then join Swarrt to help get revenge.
First of all, her name is just Sham, second, no their story was good. One thing I would change would be to show the Gorge Foxes fighting the crows
How did I ever imply their story was bad ???
I'm just trying to give them a bigger role in more depth. For example, they probably wish they'd had some metal weapons to have dealt with Sunflash. Plus, Swarrt encountering other vermin who'd encountered Sunflash could hopefully help beef up his role. (This is why I think Warpclaw should be replaced by Zigu)
QuoteQuote- Rework Balefur's death by having Swarrt pretend to submit to him, then lead him to the quarry. For the cherry on top, the last thing Balefur does is call out to Swarrt for help, only for the ferret to smile and leave just before the adders attack.
No, it was fine as it was, the "he dies a coward" thing was the point
Oh, he'd still die a coward all right. Whatever made you think I suggested otherwise? It's just he'd help make Swarrt a better villain while he's at it.
QuoteQuote- Make Veil more morally ambiguous.
What do you mean? He seemed pretty ambiguous to me
He acted more like a like a thieving, murderous punk who had it coming than the conflicted character the description hinted at. I'm very glad you saw him as ambiguous, but most of the time I saw just another vermin...
QuoteQuote- Cut that bit with the juvenile reptiles
No, that was important to actually establish Sunflash as strong and powerful
Dude, almost EVERY scene with Sunflash establishes that he's strong and powerful...
Jango....I'm getting the feeling that I don't like your perspective on the Redwall books and TV series AT. ALL. PERIOD.
...
:-[
There's no reason to turn this into a personal battle. Attack arguments or ideas, but not the man.
At any rate, watching this discussion is fascinating just because of the juxtaposition of the debaters' arguments.
I want to hit on something before I get into my own thoughts on this post: it's true that Martin's background in Mossflower appears to be different from what is described in Martin the Warrior. That doesn't mean, though, that Brian Jacques is "unable to tie tales together better". All we know is that he chose to make Martin's actual background story inconsistent with what the character said about his past in a different story. Implying that this must indicate incompetence on the part of the author is more than a little insulting.
With that out of the way, my ideal for a Redwall series has always been to make a long animation and synchronize it with the audiobooks. The graphics themselves would be based on the style of the illustrations in the book -- black and white.
That said, though, my ideal is very far from anything that might actually be made. The reason for this is because my objectives are different from the objectives of a company that might take on a Redwall animation project. I'm interested primarily in creating an animated, unabridged version of the books. They're interested in entertaining their fans, and don't much care about their product being true to the source material.
I agree that for such a series to actually be produced, two things have to happen: the violence has to be toned down, and the puzzles, riddles, feasting, etc. (really most of the extra stuff in the books) have got to go.
The violence part is pretty obvious. For an example: in the very first part of Mariel of Redwall, Gabool literally lops the head off of one of his captains. I don't think there's any way you can put that incident on-screen and get away with anything less than the equivalent to a PG-13 rating, and that's being very generous. What's more is that that sort of thing happens all the time in the books. There's no need to actually show all the nitty-gritty details on screen and elevate the rating to way above what children would be allowed to watch if the story can be told just as well without it.
I understand getting rid of the puzzle/etc. material is not a popular idea. The thing is, though, that the puzzles are not made to fit a 25-minute episode of "Redwall On Screen". The assumption when Brian Jacques was writing the book is that you're supposed to try to figure it out at your own pace, as you read it. But if it's being told to you, that pretty much ruins that aspect of the story. And the riddles, etc. are pretty forgettable if you haven't the time or inclination to try to figure them out for yourself.
The feasting and everything is good in the context of the book, when you have your imagination to aid you, but a TV show is not conducive to using your imagination. It would be filler material in that setting. It would be okay to show it a couple of times, to establish to the viewers that this is what Redwallers tend to do, but after that it doesn't make sense to keep bringing it up. This is, after all, an adventure series, not the cooking channel. ;)
As it is, you're going to be hard-pressed to fit all of the necessary plot and character development into the short span of TV episodes. It doesn't make sense to add material that might take away from your already-condensed plot, especially when that material (riddles, etc.) isn't the best-suited for the audiovisual format to begin with.
Television series and movies based on books invariably are built on a foundation of compromises. That's the only way they get made. Things are going to be changed and removed, and a lot of the time, if you were a fan of the original book, you're not going to like those changes. I'm afraid that the closest you'll ever get to a 100% authentic Redwall film is if you listen to an audiobook, close your eyes, and picture it in your mind.
P.S.: I thought about this earlier, forgot about it while I was making my post, and then remembered it when I was rereading the discussion.
Veil's story as it is is all about the evil life that he lived, versus his final deed -- and whether or not he was redeemed at the end of the story. I don't see how you can, ultimately, get much more ambiguous than that. However, if you want to make Veil less clear-cut evil throughout the story, try it like this.
Veil decides to get back at the Friar by slipping him something to make him ill (not to kill him; more like a laxative or something). Unfortunately, Veil is clueless at identifying plants and accidentally picks out a fatal poison. Myrtle drinks it and dies. He still gets the red paws and hides them for a while, but he gets discovered. In the aftermath of Myrtle's death the Abbeydwellers aren't in the mood to listen to his claim that "it was an accident".
After that, just tone some of the things Veil does down a notch. He doesn't wound the old dormouse, he just steals his stuff. When he locks Bryony and Togget in with the rock, his intent would be to just leave them there for a bit, to scare them, before letting them out -- but when Swartt and his band come along, he goes with Swartt and they're left in there. Tone the disrespect to his father down big-time. Veil might do the customary vermin trash-talk, but he wouldn't act as if there was some question about who the boss was. The idea here is that Veil would watch Swartt and follow after him, reluctantly, but he'd be wondering all along if he made the right decision, and if his father is really someone that he wants to imitate. (Swartt, for his part, would be exactly the same as he is in the book.)
All this leads up to Veil saving Bryony at the end of the story. Finally, when Bella says what she says at the end of the book, Bryony doesn't respond.
If anything, this proposal probably makes Veil a little too good, but he'd be doing enough bad stuff to balance that out, I guess.
urgh....I tried to read that....But failed.....
The Long Patrol:
- Open with Tammo's imaginary battle as an actual fight scene/fantasy that's interrupted by his siblings ;)
- Show the tree crashing down on the south wall during that big storm
- A narrated flashback--or some small ones here and there--about the Rapscallions' attack on Salamandastron.
- Have Rubbadub voiced by an actual drum, Gerald McBoing-Boing style! :D
- Change something about that with the toads and fish. That was nasty >_<. At very least don't have the toads eating fish as they're being eaten.
I would copy the books exactly...
Triss (oh boy -_-):
- Do whatever I could make Triss less of a Mary Sue. Like showing her train with Martin's sword, literally learning the ropes a sailing, and having her find that passage-way on her own instead of Martin holding her paw.
- Make Scarum a little less obnoxious. Even a tiny bit would do!
- Cut Welfo. All she was whine & cower, get sick, then leave with no effect on the plot whatsoever.
- Maybe cut Raura and Slippo (that coming from someone who like seals!)
- Cut the Migooch trive
- Give Bladd an undercurrent of menace; that is, hint at something darker under his goofy exterior (and accent). He didn't feel like a bad guy and I felt sad when he died. He needs to act just a little more like a bad guy
- A flashback about the origin of the Hydra Siblings, most likely narrated by Mokug.
- Do more with Bluddbeak or just cut him.
- Cut Sleeve, or at least her narration. That part of the story will work better actually being shown.
- I know I'll get in trouble for this one, but...we might have to cut Grubbage. I like him. I really do. But he played no role other than being purely comic relief. And Comic Relief characters are nigh-useless...
- Not sure how it could work, but have Triss & Shogg meet up with Sagaxus & friends sooner to streamline and speed up the story.
Why is it bad to make you feel for a bad guy? I felt bad for Barranca and Romsca which I considered a welcome breath of fresh air from the general black and whiteness of the Redwall stories. Redwall is one of very few where the lines are so clearly defined, in most places they try to give you motivation and reasoning for the bad guys so that you understand their point of view. The "this is the bad guy and they're completely unreasonable" POV was one of the few things I disliked about Redwall.
^ Okay, okay, you're right. I should've phrased that better. (Edit time!)
It's just that they talked about him like he was so bad when I saw the opposite. He seemed like the best of the pure ferrets, but the hear the slaves talk he was just as bad as his dad and sister. I just thought he should match it a little.
At the very least make it sound like he had it coming instead of being so "Awww man!"
*Is wondering if it's worth my time defending Triss from a very blatant, in-your-face accusation of Mary-Sue-ness*
Quote from: Delthion on August 07, 2014, 11:28:07 PM
I would copy the books exactly...
So would I, actually.
Quote from: JangoCoolguy on April 07, 2014, 11:47:20 PM
- Cut Krakulat and the gang war between him and Swarrt. It just felt like busy work
Really? No one likes Krakulat. 😢
Quote from: James Gryphon on March 06, 2019, 12:40:00 AM
Veil's story as it is is all about the evil life that he lived, versus his final deed -- and whether or not he was redeemed at the end of the story. I don't see how you can, ultimately, get much more ambiguous than that. However, if you want to make Veil less clear-cut evil throughout the story, try it like this.
Veil decides to get back at the Friar by slipping him something to make him ill (not to kill him; more like a laxative or something). Unfortunately, Veil is clueless at identifying plants and accidentally picks out a fatal poison. Myrtle drinks it and dies. He still gets the red paws and hides them for a while, but he gets discovered. In the aftermath of Myrtle's death the Abbeydwellers aren't in the mood to listen to his claim that "it was an accident".
After that, just tone some of the things Veil does down a notch. He doesn't wound the old dormouse, he just steals his stuff. When he locks Bryony and Togget in with the rock, his intent would be to just leave them there for a bit, to scare them, before letting them out -- but when Swartt and his band come along, he goes with Swartt and they're left in there. Tone the disrespect to his father down big-time. Veil might do the customary vermin trash-talk, but he wouldn't act as if there was some question about who the boss was. The idea here is that Veil would watch Swartt and follow after him, reluctantly, but he'd be wondering all along if he made the right decision, and if his father is really someone that he wants to imitate. (Swartt, for his part, would be exactly the same as he is in the book.)
All this leads up to Veil saving Bryony at the end of the story. Finally, when Bella says what she says at the end of the book, Bryony doesn't respond.
If anything, this proposal probably makes Veil a little too good, but he'd be doing enough bad stuff to balance that out, I guess.
Hmm, while I do like this proposal, I have to agree with your own thoughts that this makes Veil a little to good (accidental murder aside, if it's clear to the audience that the murder is accidental than he might get too many pity points)
So perhaps at the time have it be ambiguous as to whether or not it was an accident and leave Bryrony confused by that point too. At the same time I think ambiguity and Redwall don't really go together.
I would want more characters like Romsca, from Pearls. Comparing that character to Veil as far as "gray" characters go, Romsca leaves a more bittersweet taste when her story is over. While the black and white lines of good and evil make it easy for storytelling, I personally appreciate nurture over nature.
I would like to imagine Taggerung rewritten in a way that he was little more than a vermin because he had no other role models. His temperament might be the same, but he would probably not be averse to killing, and would be pretty savage, as was his calling as the Taggerung. Instead of leaving of his own will, he would almost be chased off (somehow), and come into contact with more of his kind: otters.
He wouldn't know why they would act differently, because from what we know he wasn't really exposed to anyone but vermin. Eventually, because he was intelligent, he would figure out his origin, and his tendencies would change as he stuck around other otters and Redwallers. The ending would be pretty much the same.
Quote from: JangoCoolguy on April 17, 2014, 01:13:25 AM
Quote from: Tam and Martin on April 16, 2014, 07:57:29 PM
You know what, I really don't want to make any changes. Myself, knowing that Bryan thought of everything and he being the one that wrote the books makes me not think of changing anything. I think it's perfect how it is :).
I'm sorry, but changes to the Tales are necessary and nigh-unavoidable. Reading a story and watching it are different things in general. What works in a book doesn't work on film. There are things that would HAVE to be changed to make them more kid/family friendly, more streamlined, and more cinematic.
The TV Show had a LOT of changes from big to small to medium (http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Redwall_TV_Series#Differences_From_The_Books (http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Redwall_TV_Series#Differences_From_The_Books)), so adaptations to other Tales are needed as well.
You know that people can enjoy things right? If people don't want to change anything, THEN THEY DON'T HAVE TO CHANGE ANYTHING.
Quote from: Cornflower MM on June 27, 2014, 05:52:31 PM
Jango....I'm getting the feeling that I don't like your perspective on the Redwall books and TV series AT. ALL. PERIOD.
Is it okay to say that I hate it? I still respect your opinion though. I just hate it. Once again, I respect your opinion, you are probably a nice person, I just really really really don't like that one opinion. Don't attack me. Please.
I think the point is that making the books into a TV show and using the exact script of the books would be literally impossible; the nature of the medium requires that many things be cut. You can just fit more material into a 350-page book than you can in a season of TV show, and what entertains in text will not necessarily do so visually. So saying that you want a movie or TV show to be "just like the books" is merely wishful thinking. I understand why, I too love all those aspects of the books, but it's simply not feasible to implement them in a visual format. That's why they are books.
If it's all right with everybeast, I feel like reviving this topic in honor of the upcoming Netflix Movie & Show. :)
Absolutely fine, and apologies if this is too long!
Since the series is to focus on Martin's life, there is a good chance that the bulk of Luke's hunt for Vilu Daskar won't be shown, due to time constraints and pacing. However I believe it will be shown in broad strokes. Also, as I've read Mossflower more recently than the others, I'll comment moreso on changes that should be made with it's storyline, especially re: retconning so that it fits the narrative of the other two better.
- Luke the Warrior's tribe arrives on the northwestern shores, and finds the caves that they will make home. In passing, they can make reference to the arrival of Verdauga Greeneyes, and his conquest of Mossflower. Verdauga's conditions of surrender were refusing to execute anymore of the Corim members, so long as Luke the Warrior left Mossflower never to return, for taking such an active role against him. Luke could admit in vulnerability to Sayna, his remorse over not being able to drive off the wildcats, lamenting that he could not do more for the creatures of Mossflower.
- Vilu Daskar arrives and meets with Luke the Warrior. I like the idea of Daskar being associated with Badrang and Clogg, as they were all stoat corsairs active in the same time and place. My idea is that the three of them are in league to take the remains of King Mortspear's Empire for themselves, with Verdauga gone south and Ungatt Trunn now dead. Daskar can say as such to Luke, proclaiming himself lord of the western coast, and that Luke must swear fealty. Luke of course, rejects this offer, and this initiates the conflict.
- at the start of Martin the Warrior while he is lashed to the walltops, he slips in and out of conciousness, and moments from his childhood take place, and the show could use the same format. Learning the rudimentary basics of swordplay, and of the art of war, much to his grandmother's chagrin. Their lessons can be shown alongside scenes of Luke capturing the Greenhawk, maybe some flashbacks to the start of the Great Mossflower War, with Luke fighting with Barkstripe as brothers-in-arms. When Luke finally departs to hunt down Daskar, scenes from his journey can go alongside Martin's capture by Badrang, and the long march to Marshank during which Windred dies. For all of his enthusiasm under his father's tutelage, and his aspirations of becoming a warrior, we can see Martin for what he is at the time; a small child under the cruel paws of slavers, having lost the only family he had left, and now alone and vulnerable in a brutal and savage existence. All he has left is the stone that belonged to Sayna
- frightened and weakened, huddled alone in the slave compound, Barkstripe sees Martin and embraces him as a fatherly figure, protecting and caring for him when Marshank soldiers torment the small mouse. Many seasons on, this transitions to an older and more frail Barkstripe struggling with his workload, and being set upon by guards. Martin, now grown and toughened by his life as a slave, and a natural leader amongst the prison population, comes to Barkstripe's defense
- When Martin is lashed to the walltops of Marshank in the midst of the storm, and he gives his big "I am Martin, son of Luke the Warrior" speech, have this happen concurrently with Luke lashed to the helm of the Bloodwake, bearing down upon the tall rocks. The battle for the Bloodwake takes place, as Martin is battered by the torrential storm. Luke's last warcry, and Martin's first, blend into one, as Luke dies and Martin swears his oath to take back his father's sword.
in Mossflower
- Martin's appearance and character feels strangely familiar to Verdauga, as does the sword which he inspects and remarks positively upon the weapon. Ultimately, whether his suspicions are to be true or not, his principles lead him not to act upon it, and makes his decision. He passes the sword to Tsarmina to return to Martin, whereupon she destroys the blade.
- In his first night in the cells, Martin stares up into the sky through the small prison window. The stars wink back at him, from a constellation framed perfectly by the window. In-universe, and maybe a bit too on the nose, let's just call it "The Swordmouse" (or "The Broken Sword", or "The Hammer and the Anvil")
- discussions between Martin, Bella, and Abbess Germaine on what to do in the event of Corim's victory. This can spearhead talks of building Redwall
- A nighttime scene on the beaches, where Martin and co. are camped. They aren't in total darkness however, as in the distance, a great fire is bellowing from Salamandastron, and a meteor shower takes place in the skies. It's radiant point hails from the constellation of The Swordmouse
- On the second night of the Swordmouse meteor shower, Martin and co. now watch from the upper levels of Salamandastron. Boar waxes poetically on badgers, and their affinity for the celestial and of prophecy. One meteor breaks the atmosphere, and crashes some distance away along the beach
- In the secret rooms of Salamandastron, Boar delves deeper into the importance (or at least presence) of prophecy. Carvings and reliefs can allude to later books regarding the badgers of Salamandastron, in particular is Lord Brocktree's prophecy of tragedy and an absence of a badger ruler- until a golden striped lord returns to take his rightful role. Allusions to Martin and his quest to Salamandastron are present as well of course
- Timbalisto builds trebuchets, because trebuchets are hot right now
- During their total liberation of Mossflower, they come across St Ninian's church, a place that Martin feels a strong connection towards. Gonff comments favourably upon the building, before discovering a great tapestry upon the walls- The Tapestry, featuring Martin the Elder. Gonff points out the similarities between the two mice, with their relation unknown. In an alcove, Martin finds a set of armour that belonged to his grandfather, and his shield emblazoned with the letter M
- After the fall of Kotir, have Martin present and accept the terms of surrender of the soldiers who escaped the sinking, showing a surprising amount of empathy and concern for the well-being of Corim's prisoners, ensuring that they all receive proper food and care, before going after Tsarmina. This can contrast with say, earlier at the Battle of Marshank, reeling from the death of Rose he attempts to attack Badrang's surrendered forces before being stopped and told the importance of knowing when to put away down your sword
- Following his battle with Tsarmina, we see Martin in an OBE where he finds himself at the Gates of the Dark Forest (just because I'm a sucker for surreal, spirit world visuals)
- The Legend of Luke (Books 1+3) can easily be condensed to an epilogue of sorts, a montage of Martin and co. venturing northwards, a moment of reflection at the caves where Luke's tribe lived (maybe in terms of staging, mirroring the moment when Martin watched Luke departing on the Sayna), finding the wreck of the Arfship and Vurg and co., where they can have a brief conversation, and present "In the Wake of the Red Ship" to Martin (show, don't tell- we all know the story). Martin walks out to the prow of the Arfship and drops Sayna's stone into the depths below
- Martin stops and looks back to the caves one last time, then shifts his gaze eastwards. Distantly on the horizon, he can see the mountains of the northeastern forest, where Noonvale is hidden. After a moment he turns southwards, and continues his journey home, where we find the Abbey's construction is well underway
- In the final scene, we see a slightly older and greyed Martin clad in a plain green habit, I like to imagine tending to the lawns and the orchards with the gardeners or perhaps writing poetry (or riddles...) before being waylaid by dibbuns playing their games. He joins them, finally showing contentment and happiness after such a long and hard life. Eventually he must rest, as this is now a luxury he can afford. He lays down in the gardens and drifts peacefully off to sleep, dreaming of roses in bloom all across Redwall, and a young mouse in armour emerging from the Abbey, announced by a chorus of bells.
- in a post-credits scene, Sunflash the Mace arrives at Salamandastron, fulfilling Lord Brocktree's prophecy
^ Now that's what I'm talkin' about! :hearteyes:
I like the way you think! ;D