I had been wondering "how big was the rat army in malkariss" when I realized that there are quite a few books where they don't say how big the vermin army is specifically. like the one in Lord Brocktree, so here we are. Based off your analysis, how big are the largest of the vermin armies.
P.S. This is the first topic that I've started so it'll be interesting seeing where it goes.
This was put together by James Gryphon a while ago,
Cluny The Scourge's Horde
Commander: Cluny the Scourge
Numbers: About 500
Species: Mostly rats; some weasels, ferrets and stoats
Accomplishments: Tore across the continent and killed countless numbers of creatures prior to Redwall. The only force to ever completely succeed in conquering, and briefly holding Redwall Abbey. Met its final defeat after a surprise attack from five hundred Guosim, a thousand Sparra warriors, the surviving Redwallers, Squire Gingivere, and Captain Snow.
The Thousand Eyes Army
Commander: Originally Lord Verdauga Greeneyes; during Mossflower, Tsarmina Greeneyes
Numbers: My memory's poor, but probably 2-3 hundred
Species: Rats, weasels, ferrets, stoats; some foxes after Bane's mercenaries arrived
Accomplishments: Ruled over Mossflower for many seasons, and under Lord Greeneyes, crushed a woodlander rebellion led by the badger Barkstripe. Under Tsarmina, fought and was eventually defeated by a revived Corim, who used a catapult and an artificial flood to destroy Kotir.
The Corpsemakers
Commander: Usually Ferahgo the Assassin; very occasionally his son Klitch
Numbers: Numbered at about 4,000
Species: Rats, weasels, ferrets, stoats, and foxes
Accomplishments: Conquered the Northlands, and killed and plundered untold numbers of creatures in Ferahgo's extremely long career. Besieged Salamandastron, poisoned their food supply, and nearly killed Lord Urthstripe. Broke apart after the Assassin's death and was defeated by an alliance of the remaining Long Patrol hares, the Guosssom (not to be confused with the similar Guosim), and some assorted allies.
Gabool's Corsairs
Commander: Gabool the Wild, King of Searats
Numbers: Probably 4-5 hundred
Species: Rats
Accomplishments: Ruled the oceans for many seasons, capturing ships such as Periwinkle in the process. Finally defeated by a slave rebellion, assisted by Badger Lord Rawnblade, Mariel, and company.
The Rapscallions
Commander: Originally Gormad Tunn, during The Long Patrol, Damug Warfang
Numbers: 1,000
Species: Rats, weasels, ferrets, stoats, foxes
Accomplishments: Attempted to conquer Salamandastron, but was defeated by the massive Long Patrol stationed there. Finally destroyed at the Battle of the Ridge, despite early success, after Long Patrol reinforcements arrived and surrounded them.
The Blue Hordes
Commander: Ungatt Trunn
Numbers: About 7,500
Species: Rats, weasels, ferrets, stoats, foxes
Accomplishments: Defeated an anemic Long Patrol and conquered Salamandastron, becoming the only force to ever succeed in doing so. Starved from lack of food supplies; the survivors were narrowly defeated by a reformed Long Patrol and their allies.
Quote from: Tungro on February 27, 2019, 08:37:49 PM
This was put together by James Gryphon a while ago,
Cluny The Scourge's Horde
Commander: Cluny the Scourge
Numbers: About 500
Species: Mostly rats; some weasels, ferrets and stoats
Accomplishments: Tore across the continent and killed countless numbers of creatures prior to Redwall. The only force to ever completely succeed in conquering, and briefly holding Redwall Abbey. Met its final defeat after a surprise attack from five hundred Guosim, a thousand Sparra warriors, the surviving Redwallers, Squire Gingivere, and Captain Snow.
The Thousand Eyes Army
Commander: Originally Lord Verdauga Greeneyes; during Mossflower, Tsarmina Greeneyes
Numbers: My memory's poor, but probably 2-3 hundred
Species: Rats, weasels, ferrets, stoats; some foxes after Bane's mercenaries arrived
Accomplishments: Ruled over Mossflower for many seasons, and under Lord Greeneyes, crushed a woodlander rebellion led by the badger Barkstripe. Under Tsarmina, fought and was eventually defeated by a revived Corim, who used a catapult and an artificial flood to destroy Kotir.
The Corpsemakers
Commander: Usually Ferahgo the Assassin; very occasionally his son Klitch
Numbers: Numbered at about 4,000
Species: Rats, weasels, ferrets, stoats, and foxes
Accomplishments: Conquered the Northlands, and killed and plundered untold numbers of creatures in Ferahgo's extremely long career. Besieged Salamandastron, poisoned their food supply, and nearly killed Lord Urthstripe. Broke apart after the Assassin's death and was defeated by an alliance of the remaining Long Patrol hares, the Guosssom (not to be confused with the similar Guosim), and some assorted allies.
Gabool's Corsairs
Commander: Gabool the Wild, King of Searats
Numbers: Probably 4-5 hundred
Species: Rats
Accomplishments: Ruled the oceans for many seasons, capturing ships such as Periwinkle in the process. Finally defeated by a slave rebellion, assisted by Badger Lord Rawnblade, Mariel, and company.
The Rapscallions
Commander: Originally Gormad Tunn, during The Long Patrol, Damug Warfang
Numbers: 1,000
Species: Rats, weasels, ferrets, stoats, foxes
Accomplishments: Attempted to conquer Salamandastron, but was defeated by the massive Long Patrol stationed there. Finally destroyed at the Battle of the Ridge, despite early success, after Long Patrol reinforcements arrived and surrounded them.
The Blue Hordes
Commander: Ungatt Trunn
Numbers: About 7,500
Species: Rats, weasels, ferrets, stoats, foxes
Accomplishments: Defeated an anemic Long Patrol and conquered Salamandastron, becoming the only force to ever succeed in doing so. Starved from lack of food supplies; the survivors were narrowly defeated by a reformed Long Patrol and their allies.
Okay thanks. Does anyone know how big the rat armies from Mattimeo are?"
The 7500 estimate for Ungatt's horde is based on shoddy reasoning and is not canon. It's based on the idea that Ungatt probably had around 300 soldiers per ship, but it says the ships in his fleet ranged in size from galleons to small fishing boats, so there's no way to get an average number for the crews of each.
Where was the estimate or number of 4000 for Ferahgo's army derived from ?? Was it ever mentioned in the book or? I always imagined his army numbered a couple hundred...
You would have to ask James, this was just copy and paste
Quote from: Grond on February 27, 2019, 10:15:37 PM
Where was the estimate or number of 4000 for Ferahgo's army derived from ?? Was it ever mentioned in the book or? I always imagined his army numbered a couple hundred...
On the Redwall Wiki it says that Ferahgo had claimed to have more than 4,000 under his command.
Quote from: Sebias of Redwall on February 27, 2019, 08:43:19 PM
Okay thanks. Does anyone know how big the rat armies from Mattimeo are?"
I'd say probably five to ten score. In addition, the numbers above for the blue hordes are out of wack, you need way more then seventy five hundred to do what they did, though I'd say it is close. Personally I'd put their numbers at ten thousand to fifteen thousand.
Quote from: Steelinghades on March 08, 2019, 12:52:10 AM
I'd say probably five to ten score. In addition, the numbers above for the blue hordes are out of wack, you need way more then seventy five hundred to do what they did, though I'd say it is close. Personally I'd put their numbers at ten thousand to fifteen thousand.
That sounds kinda like what I thought.
Quote from: Sebias of Redwall on February 27, 2019, 08:43:19 PM
Okay thanks. Does anyone know how big the rat armies from Mattimeo are?"
I'd say about 2,000 to 5,000, considering how large Malkariss's underground city was and how the hordes were described as being endless.
Quote from: Jack the Quick on May 27, 2019, 11:31:44 PM
Quote from: Sebias of Redwall on February 27, 2019, 08:43:19 PM
Okay thanks. Does anyone know how big the rat armies from Mattimeo are?"
I'd say about 2,000 to 5,000, considering how large Malkariss's underground city was and how the hordes were described as being endless.
Sounds accurate.
Yeah, I kinda wish that BJ had given a few numbers in the books. But I guess that means us fans have more to speculate on. So that's good. :D
I think the rat hordes in Mattimeo are described as "hundreds upon hundreds". . . however you want to interpret that.
I suppose it would depend upon how many waves were sent, at about 200 a wave
That's still a lot of rats.
It is, I was just expanding my earlier post. How do you think these armies got recruited so fast? Its insane!
People are attracted to their own kind
Some were bullied in. Press-ganged and stuff.
Some probably only were in it for the loot an adventure as well.
Yeah.
Quote from: The Grey Coincidence on May 30, 2019, 04:08:16 AM
Some were bullied in. Press-ganged and stuff.
Cluny did that in
Redwall if I remember correctly.
He did, but only to those that showed resistance.
Quote from: Jack the Quick on May 30, 2019, 07:23:57 PM
He did, but only to those that showed resistance.
I kinda wonder how many did...
Probably not many, considering how vermin always seem ready to join a new horde and also, Cluny's rats must've looked pretty terrifying.
Quote from: Jack the Quick on May 30, 2019, 07:36:59 PM
Probably not many, considering how vermin always seem ready to join a new horde and also, Cluny's rats must've looked pretty terrifying.
True.
That doesn't mean they liked being in the horde...
"Once you try to separate one from the other, you are a dead man." ~Stoic the Vast; Dragons: Race to the Edge~
This is probably what most of the woodlanders would have been thinking when they fought vermin....
I doubt they were thinking much. The woodlanders are basically always the victim and are fighting defensively 6/10- when you're dealing with a sudden ambush there isn't much thought given to 'this beast is a nice guy'. Staying alive becomes the priority.
Quote from: The Grey Coincidence on June 03, 2019, 04:37:50 AM
I doubt they were thinking much. The woodlanders are basically always the victim and are fighting defensively 6/10- when you're dealing with a sudden ambush there isn't much thought given to 'this beast is a nice guy'. Staying alive becomes the priority.
That... was the point I was trying to make, but you explained it beautifully. ;D
Quote from: Sebias of Redwall on June 02, 2019, 11:45:27 PM
"Once you try to separate one from the other, you are a dead man." ~Stoic the Vast; Dragons: Race to the Edge~
This is probably what most of the woodlanders would have been thinking when they fought vermin....
You just said what the woodlanders were thinking. My point is that they weren't thinking.
Quote from: The Grey Coincidence on June 03, 2019, 04:40:58 AM
Quote from: Sebias of Redwall on June 02, 2019, 11:45:27 PM
"Once you try to separate one from the other, you are a dead man." ~Stoic the Vast; Dragons: Race to the Edge~
This is probably what most of the woodlanders would have been thinking when they fought vermin....
You just said what the woodlanders were thinking. My point is that they weren't thinking.
Ah, I see. :)
Quote from: Jack the Quick on May 30, 2019, 07:36:59 PM
Probably not many, considering how vermin always seem ready to join a new horde and also, Cluny's rats must've looked pretty terrifying.
Not quite, that was back when Redwall wasn't so clear cut black and white in terms of morality. Other examples from that book include how the abbot said he's spoken with travelling foxes or when constance wants to bar Cluny's group just because they're rats, a number of mice jump to their defence. That occasionally pops up later, like the rats from marlfox or the painted ones from....doomwyte, I believe.
I suppose it depends on past experiences
Ungatt Trunn's hordes. They covered the beach.
Quote:
The Thousand Eyes Army
Commander: Originally Lord Verdauga Greeneyes; during Mossflower, Tsarmina Greeneyes
Numbers: My memory's poor, but probably 2-3 hundred
Species: Rats, weasels, ferrets, stoats; some foxes after Bane's mercenaries arrived
Accomplishments: Ruled over Mossflower for many seasons, and under Lord Greeneyes, crushed a woodlander rebellion led by the badger Barkstripe. Under Tsarmina, fought and was eventually defeated by a revived Corim, who used a catapult and an artificial flood to destroy Kotir.
Didn't The Thousand Eye Army have 1000 vermin? It was all stoats, weasels and ferrets and only introduced foxes and rats when bane's band joined.
(Psst! We have a quote tag[quote][/quote]that'll instantly tell anyone it's a quote :))
Anyway, the Thousand Eyes Army probably (at least at the time it was named) had around five hundred soldiers, given the math. Whether it had that many at the time of the books is anyone's guess, unless Jacques numbered them.
Quote from: Verdauga on March 28, 2020, 07:35:43 PM
(Psst! We have a quote tag[quote][/quote]that'll instantly tell anyone it's a quote :))
Anyway, the Thousand Eyes Army probably (at least at the time it was named) had around five hundred soldiers, given the math. Whether it had that many at the time of the books is anyone's guess, unless Jacques numbered them.
Psst! Thanks!