Poll
Question:
If these two Badgers were in a fight whould would win
Option 1: Rawnblade Widestripe
votes: 9
Option 2: Lonna Bowstripe
votes: 7
I will do a new poll now
This new poll will work differently, I will always Poll the Winning Badger against a new badger, I will write down The number of rounds they lasted.
Winner,
Lonna Bowstripe2
Losers,
Orlando The Axe1
Gorath The Flame1
Sunflash The Mace1
Lord Brocktree2
Boar the Fighter2
Lady Cregga Rose Eyes2
Ill do several polls of villains, each will last about a day maybe more
Ultimate Winner
UNGATT TRUNNN, Son of King Mortspear, Lord of All Land and Sea, Shaker Of The Earth, The One who makes Stars Fall From The Sky For even they Fear His Mightiness; THESE ARE THE DAYS OF UNGATT TRUNN!
Ultimate Loser
The Amazing Princess Kurda, Master of... Turnips, and... Being a Dithering Idiot?
Winners,
Badrang the Tyrant
Ungatt Trunn
Urgan Nagru
Zwilt The Shade
Slagar the Cruel
Swartt Sixclaw
Sawney Rath
Vilu Daskar
Ripfang (Lord Brocktree)
General Ironbeak
Asmodeus Poisonteeth
Mokkan
Gabool The Wild
Ublaz Mad Eyes
Cluny The Scourge
Raga Bol
Gruven
Plugg Firetail
Ascrod
Ruggan Bor
Zerig
Losers,
Cap'n Clogg
Tsarmania
Silvamord
Vilaya
Malkariss
Ferahgo The Assassin
Princess Kurda
Gulo The Savage
Ripfang (Mossflower)
Korvus Skurr
Baliss The Slayer
Silth
Lantur
Damug Warfang
Riggu Felis
Vizka Longtooth
Razzid Wearat
Vitch
Graypatch
Predak
Gruntan Kurdley
Freeta
Fairly certain we have one of these.
Even if we don't, I suggest looking through the first few pages of the board for a similar topic. It will prevent reposts in the future. ;)
Quote from: Sagetip on August 07, 2016, 03:08:04 AM
Fairly certain we have one of these.
Even if we don't, I suggest looking through the first few pages of the board for a similar topic. It will prevent reposts in the future. ;)
There's one in Character Discussion:
http://www.loamhedgeabbey.com/index.php/topic,535.0.html (http://www.loamhedgeabbey.com/index.php/topic,535.0.html)
No poll in that though
soon as the tie is broken, new poll starts
Badrang, baby!
Quote from: Ashleg on August 07, 2016, 09:14:43 PM
Badrang, baby!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!
Ungatt Trunn.
Shouldn't this be moved to Character Discussion?
I wonder what
@Groddil thinks of Ungatt Trunn? (Groddil kills Ungatt Trunn in the books :) )
When the stars fall from the sky ,
Red the blood flows 'neath the sun,
Then let mothers wail and cry,
These are the days of Ungatt Trunn!
Hark no bird sings in the air!
The earth is shaking everywhere!
His reign of terror has begun!
For these are the days of Ungatt Trunn!'
Quote from: Fatch of Southsward on August 08, 2016, 05:34:20 PM
I wonder what @Groddil thinks of Ungatt Trunn? (Groddil kills Ungatt Trunn in the books :) )
When the stars fall from the sky ,
Red the blood flows 'neath the sun,
Then let mothers wail and cry,
These are the days of Ungatt Trunn!
Hark no bird sings in the air!
The earth is shaking everywhere!
His reign of terror has begun!
For these are the days of Ungatt Trunn!'
Trunn was actually one of my favorite villains of the whole series, and his death was pretty darn cool.
*ahem* not like I mean to brag or anything... ::)
I guess I'll go Urgan Nagru, because I liked the way he died. (That's saying a lot if the thing you like best about a person is the way they died. . .)
Urgan Nagru for me.
Silvamord is da best
Zwilt this time.
Ferahgo is my all time fav.
Vilaya was the Sable Queen right?
Yup.
Zwilt was the better character. Neither of them were spectacular, but Vilaya was a token bad guy leader. Zwilt was a little bit cooler.
MALKARISS SCORES TEN OUTTA TEN FOR BEING THE CREEPIER CHARACTER.
I dunno about that Ashes, the argument could be made that Slagar was the creepier character, he was certainly the most fleshed out. Malkariss was just Empire building, and while I do believe Slave owning is terrible I don't think it makes him inherently evil or creepy. What made Slagar so great and freaky was his willingness to go through so much, and harbor that grudge for so long before finally enacting his revenge. Not just by killing his enemies, but hurting them in the worse way he possible could.
In a way Slagar was brilliant, in a twisted way. Every bit of his plan, from killing off his crew, too kidnapping Mattimeo, to becoming Malkariss' paw above the underground kingdom, was very impressive and the work of a mastermind.
I really love Slagar just because of how he connected Redwall and Mattimeo. I did always wonder what happened to Chickenhound, and when he was announced as Slagar, it just made me really happy. Plus He was awesome in the TV show. All around a creepy, eerie, but wholesome villain, and for sure one of my favorites.
I haven't read Mattimeo in a while, but I have seen the TV show more recently. Based off of that I say Slagar.
We see Chickenhound get supposedly killed by Asmodeous in Redwall. I was sure he was dead when I was reading the books. My only complaint for Slagar was that he somehow knew what was going on in Redwall long before he sent Vitch in to spy on them.
Somehow he knew about Mattimeo, and I don't think he was invited to that baby shower.
But that has nothing to do with the poll.
I like them equally so I'm not gonna vote.
-Feragho the Swartt
Swartt Sixclaw, much craftier. ;D
I remember Ferahgo better than Swartt. So I said Ferahgo.
Since Salamadastron is my least favorite Redwall book, mostly because Ferhago seemed like a very week villain by the end, I will have to say Swartt is better. I mean, he was much more memorable.
We need a tie breaker.
Fine! I'll vote.
Most definitely Sawney Rath.
Princess Kurda was pretty mediocre. She kinda just showed off a bit, went off on some quest that inconvenienced the protagonists, and ultimately was either a complete fraud when it came to her sword skills or was victim to a Mary-Sue. (Definitely the last one, possibly the first one as well.)
Quote from: Skarzs on August 14, 2016, 04:34:59 AM
Princess Kurda was pretty mediocre. She kinda just showed off a bit, went off on some quest that inconvenienced the protagonists, and ultimately was either a complete fraud when it came to her sword skills or was victim to a Mary-Sue. (Definitely the last one, possibly the first one as well.)
Agreed.
Quote from: Skarzs on August 14, 2016, 04:34:59 AM
Princess Kurda was pretty mediocre. She kinda just showed off a bit, went off on some quest that inconvenienced the protagonists, and ultimately was either a complete fraud when it came to her sword skills or was victim to a Mary-Sue. (Definitely the last one, possibly the first one as well.)
Indeed.
As for the current poll, I pick Vilu. He's easily my favourite villain in the entire series though I do believe character assassination was performed on him at the end of the story, but that happens with all
Redwall villains. They're boring like that. Gulo just didn't interest me at all, he was a dumb, savage brute, which can be fun if done right, but not when it comes to the main antagonist.
I pick Vilu because he's one of the most important characters in the series. (Seriously.)
Vilu. He just had a cooler persona than Gulo.
You should all vote for Ripfang ::)
Quote from: alexandre on August 14, 2016, 10:40:09 PM
You should all vote for Ripfang ::)
Which one? (http://soopergrape.com/green/gwink.gif)
If I recall correctly, Mossflower's Ripfang wasn't really a character in his own right, just someone that the protagonists knew about who didn't really have any lines or do anything we knew about.
Quote from: Jet the binturong on August 15, 2016, 02:37:30 AM
If I recall correctly, Mossflower's Ripfang wasn't really a character in his own right, just someone that the protagonists knew about who didn't really have any lines or do anything we knew about.
But we do know that he must have had a great amount of strength and skill to have taken on a badger lord and fought him to the death. Not many rats could do that.
Quote from: alexandre on August 15, 2016, 04:01:03 AM
Quote from: Jet the binturong on August 15, 2016, 02:37:30 AM
If I recall correctly, Mossflower's Ripfang wasn't really a character in his own right, just someone that the protagonists knew about who didn't really have any lines or do anything we knew about.
But we do know that he must have had a great amount of strength and skill to have taken on a badger lord and fought him to the death. Not many rats could do that.
Well, that's not true; Ripfang didn't really do that. As soon as he got anywhere near Boar, the badger lord grabbed and killed him. Boar was only killed because the sheer number of pirates overwhelmed him shortly afterwards.
Quote from: Groddil on August 15, 2016, 04:04:38 AM
Quote from: alexandre on August 15, 2016, 04:01:03 AM
Quote from: Jet the binturong on August 15, 2016, 02:37:30 AM
If I recall correctly, Mossflower's Ripfang wasn't really a character in his own right, just someone that the protagonists knew about who didn't really have any lines or do anything we knew about.
But we do know that he must have had a great amount of strength and skill to have taken on a badger lord and fought him to the death. Not many rats could do that.
Well, that's not true; Ripfang didn't really do that. As soon as he got anywhere near Boar, the badger lord grabbed and killed him. Boar was only killed because the sheer number of pirates overwhelmed him shortly afterwards.
Well, getting that many rats to follow you and becoming the mortal enemy of a badger lord must have taken some skill right? :-\
New poll coming up
I never cared for Korvus, or his snake sidekick. He was much like other bad guys - out to get something, in this case four gems. Madeyes waged war against the Redwallers for the exact same reason, and lots of other villains (Cluny, Slagar) went to a lot of effort to come into possession of a valuable object(s).
In the meantime, Ironbeak was the original bird villain, and he was ruthless. The General often participated in fights himself, and wasn't hiding anything or making others do his dirty work (Like Korvus did with Baliss). He wasn't a wuss, either, and proved himself quite capable of fending off Redwallers. Putting aside the normal superstitious weakness all villains have, he was a powerful leader and a great villain.
I actually change my vote to Ironbeak. I can't actually remember much about Korvus and most of his cool things can be attributed to Sicarris or however you spell her name.
Not much a fan of the crows but I can say that I liked Ironbeak a little.
Baliss.
BALISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS WILL SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSLAYY YOU ALL IF YOU DON'T CASSSSSSSSSSSSSST A VOTE FOR HISSSSSSSSSSSSSS AWESSSSSSSSSOMENESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS ;)
Asmodeus was the first snake in Redwall, and he had the creepiest sort of tension surronding him the whole time that when they finally found that he had the sword, I remember gulping because they would have to confront the creature. Plus his death was one of the most iconic things in the Redwall series with the "He stabbed for Martin, he Stabbed for Redwall!" thing being just amazing.
Quote from: Gonff the Mousethief on August 15, 2016, 08:38:01 PM
Asmodeus was the first snake in Redwall, and he had the creepiest sort of tension surronding him the whole time that when they finally found that he had the sword, I remember gulping because they would have to confront the creature. Plus his death was one of the most iconic things in the Redwall series with the "He stabbed for Martin, he Stabbed for Redwall!" thing being just amazing.
Spoiler
True, but Balisssssssss seemed to have much more stamina and strength then old Poisonteeth. He was blind and badly wounded from a hedgehog's spikes but he still managed to capture a raven and forced it to lead him to Korvus Skurr's lair with the intent of killing him. He battled a giant Catfish in the underground lake, which is no small accomplishment when you are blind, badly wounded and can't breath underwater. He slayed many birds and reptiles in the battle in the cave and was finally finished off when the cave collapsed. I remember reading Doomwhyte and thinking "wow, that is one tough snake".
Quote from: alexandre on August 15, 2016, 08:57:45 PM
Quote from: Gonff the Mousethief on August 15, 2016, 08:38:01 PM
Asmodeus was the first snake in Redwall, and he had the creepiest sort of tension surronding him the whole time that when they finally found that he had the sword, I remember gulping because they would have to confront the creature. Plus his death was one of the most iconic things in the Redwall series with the "He stabbed for Martin, he Stabbed for Redwall!" thing being just amazing.
Spoiler
True, but Balisssssssss seemed to have much more stamina and strength then old Poisonteeth. He was blind and badly wounded from a hedgehog's spikes but he still managed to capture a raven and forced it to lead him to Korvus Skurr's lair with the intent of killing him. He battled a giant Catfish in the underground lake, which is no small accomplishment when you are blind, badly wounded and can't breath underwater. He slayed many birds and reptiles in the battle in the cave and was finally finished off when the cave collapsed. I remember reading Doomwhyte and thinking "wow, that is one tough snake".
Spoiler
True, very true. I guess its just that I didn't really like Doomwyte at all, and that he was used just for the villains without even really interacting with by a few of the heroes.
Quote from: Gonff the Mousethief on August 15, 2016, 09:04:39 PM
Quote from: alexandre on August 15, 2016, 08:57:45 PM
Quote from: Gonff the Mousethief on August 15, 2016, 08:38:01 PM
Asmodeus was the first snake in Redwall, and he had the creepiest sort of tension surronding him the whole time that when they finally found that he had the sword, I remember gulping because they would have to confront the creature. Plus his death was one of the most iconic things in the Redwall series with the "He stabbed for Martin, he Stabbed for Redwall!" thing being just amazing.
Spoiler
True, but Balisssssssss seemed to have much more stamina and strength then old Poisonteeth. He was blind and badly wounded from a hedgehog's spikes but he still managed to capture a raven and forced it to lead him to Korvus Skurr's lair with the intent of killing him. He battled a giant Catfish in the underground lake, which is no small accomplishment when you are blind, badly wounded and can't breath underwater. He slayed many birds and reptiles in the battle in the cave and was finally finished off when the cave collapsed. I remember reading Doomwhyte and thinking "wow, that is one tough snake".
Spoiler
True, very true. I guess its just that I didn't really like Doomwyte at all, and that he was used just for the villains without even really interacting with by a few of the heroes.
Not entirely sure why everything is in spoilers
I don't think it's necessarily fair to rate Baliss definitively over Asmodeus just for going through circumstances that Asmodeus never faced. Asmodeus only appeared in a handful of scenes, against weak characters. Just because Asmodeus didn't do any of those feats doesn't mean he couldn't have. It isn't his fault that he never faced any serious opposition until Martin's Sword came along. I think saying that "Baliss seemed to have a lot more endurance and strength" is a little silly because we never see Asmodeus's endurance or strength tested, so we have no basis for comparing the two.
What we do have is reputation. And as far as Poisonteeth's reputation and feats go, we know he, a giant adder, reigned in terror over Mossflower, hypnotized Matthias (which I think is pretty good considering that other heroes, like Matthias' grandson, seem to be immune to that for some reason), and was recognized for countless seasons afterwards as the exemplar of giant adders -- Doomwyte makes a point of mentioning that Baliss was believed to be a descendant of said snake. That's a legacy of greatness... whereas after Baliss was gone, as far as we know, nobody ever thought about him again.
Quote from: James Gryphon on August 15, 2016, 09:40:45 PM
Quote from: Gonff the Mousethief on August 15, 2016, 09:04:39 PM
Quote from: alexandre on August 15, 2016, 08:57:45 PM
Quote from: Gonff the Mousethief on August 15, 2016, 08:38:01 PM
Asmodeus was the first snake in Redwall, and he had the creepiest sort of tension surronding him the whole time that when they finally found that he had the sword, I remember gulping because they would have to confront the creature. Plus his death was one of the most iconic things in the Redwall series with the "He stabbed for Martin, he Stabbed for Redwall!" thing being just amazing.
Spoiler
True, but Balisssssssss seemed to have much more stamina and strength then old Poisonteeth. He was blind and badly wounded from a hedgehog's spikes but he still managed to capture a raven and forced it to lead him to Korvus Skurr's lair with the intent of killing him. He battled a giant Catfish in the underground lake, which is no small accomplishment when you are blind, badly wounded and can't breath underwater. He slayed many birds and reptiles in the battle in the cave and was finally finished off when the cave collapsed. I remember reading Doomwhyte and thinking "wow, that is one tough snake".
Spoiler
True, very true. I guess its just that I didn't really like Doomwyte at all, and that he was used just for the villains without even really interacting with by a few of the heroes.
Not entirely sure why everything is in spoilers
I don't think it's necessarily fair to rate Baliss definitively over Asmodeus just for going through circumstances that Asmodeus never faced. Asmodeus only appeared in a handful of scenes, against weak characters. Just because Asmodeus didn't do any of those feats doesn't mean he couldn't have. It isn't his fault that he never faced any serious opposition until Martin's Sword came along. I think saying that "Baliss seemed to have a lot more endurance and strength" is a little silly because we never see Asmodeus's endurance or strength tested, so we have no basis for comparing the two.
What we do have is reputation. And as far as Poisonteeth's reputation and feats go, we know he, a giant adder, reigned in terror over Mossflower, hypnotized Matthias (which I think is pretty good considering that other heroes, like Matthias' grandson, seem to be immune to that for some reason), and was recognized for countless seasons afterwards as the exemplar of giant adders -- Doomwyte makes a point of mentioning that Baliss was believed to be a descendant of said snake. That's a legacy of greatness... whereas after Baliss was gone, as far as we know, nobody ever thought about him again.
Spoiler
I think it would be silly to say that Baliss does have more strength and endurance. It does seem like Baliss has more strength and endurance due to his circumstances you just don't know whether or not he actually does.
Doomwhyte was one of the last books in the chronological order so I don't think you can safely say that he didn't have legacy of greatness, I would also like to point out that Poisonteeth (I refuse to spell out his actual name, to much work) Couldn't finish of Chicenhound. Baliss also seemed to have quite a reputation a with the birds in Mossflower, and probably the other creatures to.
The birds where terrified of Baliss, and probably wouldn't have gone after him if he had stolen anything from them whereas when the sparrows thought Poisonteeth had stolen something from them they went to try and take it back.
But I am just guessing at this because I don't have any proof but it just seemed like this is how things would play out. Also, Doomwhyte is fresher in my mind since I reread it recently and I have not reread Redwall in a while so there is some bias.
Ascrod is the best Marlfox. ;)
I suppose Mokkan. Although I'd have to agree with Sand- I liked the lesser ones better.
Quote from: Sagetip on August 16, 2016, 01:58:21 AM
I suppose Mokkan. Although I'd have to agree with Sand- I liked the lesser ones better.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Mokkan, because he is the only one I can remember.
Quote from: alexandre on August 15, 2016, 10:26:24 PM
Doomwhyte was one of the last books in the chronological order so I don't think you can safely say that he didn't have legacy of greatness, I would also like to point out that Poisonteeth (I refuse to spell out his actual name, to much work) Couldn't finish of Chicenhound. Baliss also seemed to have quite a reputation a with the birds in Mossflower, and probably the other creatures to.
The birds where terrified of Baliss, and probably wouldn't have gone after him if he had stolen anything from them whereas when the sparrows thought Poisonteeth had stolen something from them they went to try and take it back.
But I am just guessing at this because I don't have any proof but it just seemed like this is how things would play out. Also, Doomwhyte is fresher in my mind since I reread it recently and I have not reread Redwall in a while so there is some bias.
You see, Baliss was one of the offspring of Asmodeus, and as such he was weaker and not quite as large, the books stated that. Asmodeus was, at least the books made him sound, to be larger and more powerful than Baliss.
Surprised Lantur ranks so low.
I thought she was very cunning and had more depth to her than her brother and mother.
?*long sigh* well chaps, I guess after a long, hard fought battle, the mocho fella still wins, wot wot?
Quote from: Ashleg on August 16, 2016, 05:13:58 AM
Surprised Lantur ranks so low.
I thought she was very cunning and had more depth to her than her brother and mother.
*cough*Vadoma*cough*
Damug was a lesser villain overall. We don't see much of him throughout the story, and he dies pretty easily, while Gabool played a much more central part to the plot. I still voted Damug, though, because the Rapscallions are so darn awesome.
I voted for Gabool because I can't remember anything about Damug apart from what his sword looks like. *Shrug*
I liked Gabool better.
I felt like Damug had more success overall.
Gabool. His craziness and utter unpredictability was truly great for a villain.
but he got close to nothing done ;)
If I remember correctly, Damug didn't do much either. Gabool may have not done much in his book but before it he did. Gabool was in charge of the pirates, probably meaning that he was the best out of all of them, he had many slaves, his pirates must have been successful, and a palace.
Damug destroyed the Rapscallion fleet, marched around, and lead the horde to ruin when he could've just ruled the "sunny south."
But Damug did manage to control an army so large that if it weren't for the long patrol would have taken over Redwall. He also managed to blind one of the fiercest badgers in the series. So even though he in the end got nothing done he could have if not for the circumstances. And if I recall corectly (though I might be wrong) he did not go crazy with fear as many other villains in the series did, one of the more notable being Gabool The Wild.
Mr.Hypnotic for the win.
I don't remember either of these guys very well, but I will go ahead and choose Riggu.
Riggu was by far the more fierce villain. Ublaz just hid behind the whole hypnotized thing while getting weaker and slower and was in the end easilly defeated. Riggu was the only villain in Redwall to ever fulfill revenge, killing the bird that had ripped half his face off in a fight. Ublaz seemed very typical. A villain - with a special power I grant - discovered Redwall tried to conquer it and failed.
New poll coming up! (I'm starting to run out of ideas, I'm welcome to any villains somebeast can think of.)
Perhaps you can leave the polls up a little longer?
Since all I remember of Vizka is that he killed a couple of old badger farmers, was in Eulalia!, took a young badger prisoner, was a pirate captain, and died, I'm gonna go with Cluny.
I'm surprised Vizka ranks so low, I remember him to be skillful and cunning.
Well Cluny was one of the few villains who succeeded in conquering the abbey.
Cluny was marvelous. ;D
The fact that I can barely remember which book Vizka was in, compared to how perfectly I remember Cluny dictates my decision. ;)
I think Cluny is only more remembered because he was the first villain.
But seeing as he has clearly won this poll by a landslide I'll put a new one up soon. Any villain suggestions? I'm running low on ideas.
Have you done Gulo? He was awesome.
Quote from: alexandre on August 17, 2016, 08:59:39 PM
I think Cluny is only more remembered because he was the first villain.
But seeing as he has clearly won this poll by a landslide I'll put a new one up soon. Any villain suggestions? I'm running low on ideas.
Cluny's remembered because he was the only villain to actually take and hold Redwall Abbey, at least until Matthias-Sue decided to pop back home. Him and Trunn are the only ones to actually obtain a pretty major victory (for a short time).
And Ferahgo!
I'm not much of a Cluny fan, I just don't remember anything about Vizka.
Please, some villain suggestions :-\
Neither villain was spectacular. Raga Bol was generic and easily killed, and Razzid was killed by a fat offer with a broomstick.
Quote from: Sagetip on August 18, 2016, 02:56:59 AM
Neither villain was spectacular. Raga Bol was generic and easily killed, and Razzid was killed by a fat offer with a broomstick.
/me applauds.
Quote from: Ashleg on August 18, 2016, 03:02:49 AM
Quote from: Sagetip on August 18, 2016, 02:56:59 AM
Neither villain was spectacular. Raga Bol was generic and easily killed, and Razzid was killed by a fat offer with a broomstick.
/me applauds.
Thats why I need some villain suggestions ;)
Vitch vs Gruven ;)
Sure ;)
Ssssuper. ;D
Gruven. I hated Vitch with as much as I could give to a book character.
I don't remember Gruven, so Vitch... ;D
Quote from: Gonff the Mousethief on August 18, 2016, 06:18:57 AM
Gruven. I hated Vitch with as much as I could give to a book character.
I didn't really like Vitch much, but not with that much passion :P
Quote from: Delthion on August 18, 2016, 06:21:29 AM
I don't remember Gruven, so Vitch... ;D
Gruven was the stoat in Taggurung who thought he was the rightful Taggerung and his mom made a big fuss about it and got Sawney Rath killed and all that stuff.
Freaking. . . I didn't like either of these characters. Gruven was an absolute chump and whiner, and Vitch was just. . . like some sort of necessary afterthought.
Gruven.
But I like Vitch too. ;D ;D
I hated both of them. Not voting.
I never could stand reading Mattimeo after seeing the TV show, don't know why. I picked Gruven.
I want to poll Greypatch from Muriel of Redall against another villain, any ideas?
They're both whiny, a quality I despise. Hated both of them. I think I'll wait for the next poll.
Hmm. . . . . . Have you done Gabool yet?
Quote from: Cornflower MM on August 18, 2016, 05:46:42 PM
They're both whiny, a quality I despise. Hated both of them. I think I'll wait for the next poll.
Hmm. . . . . . Have you done Gabool yet?
Yes
Quote from: alexandre on August 18, 2016, 05:46:01 PM
I want to poll Greypatch from Muriel of Redall against another villain, any ideas?
Plugg Firetail?
I've got another one, Badrang VS Clogg. Have you done that?
I have done Badrang and Clogg, but Plugg is a great idea
Oh.
I say Plugg.
Cap'n Plugg's the Crown Prince!
Earlier Some of you said you would like a poll with lesser Marlfoxes, which two would you all want ;)
Ascrod and the P one.
P one?
Forgot xis name.
Predak, I looked it up :D ;D
Ascrod is my choice, I don't remember them but his name sounds cooler :P
Quote from: alexandre on August 20, 2016, 03:10:23 AM
Ascrod is my choice, I don't remember them but his name sounds cooler :P
This literally is my same reasoning.
Quote from: Gonff the Mousethief on August 20, 2016, 04:04:07 AM
Quote from: alexandre on August 20, 2016, 03:10:23 AM
Ascrod is my choice, I don't remember them but his name sounds cooler :P
This literally is my same reasoning.
Lol, the only name I can think of off the top of my head is Mokkan, and I remember on that sounded like lantern, Lanter? Luntar? Launter?
Lantur.
Who was Ruggan Bor?
The fox Juska leader from the end of The Taggerung.
Neither of them ended up as good characters, Bor was wasted and Kurdly was an idiot, but I chose Bor because he had a cool premise, even if the execution failed.
I thought Kurdley was hilarious and much more memorable than Bor.
Bor voters might suffer a dose of the Kurdleys ;) >:D O0
I didn't like Kurdley, Ruggan Bor gets my vote.
New poll now
;D
Who are these two, I don't remember either of them?
Gulo's subordinates in Rakkety Tam.
Zerig was the male Ermine correct?
Fairly sure he was an arctic fox and Freeta was his mate.
Ah.
Quote from: Jet the binturong on August 24, 2016, 11:51:31 PM
Fairly sure he was an arctic fox and Freeta Frito was his mate.
(http://www.fritolay.com/images/default-source/blue-bag-image/fritos-original.png?sfvrsn=2)
The Ultimate Villain Battle Has Begun O0
Riggu Felis isn't up there.
Voted Trunn.
Quote from: Sagetip on August 30, 2016, 02:12:26 AM
Riggu Felis isn't up there.
Voted Trunn.
Riggu Felis lost, I will poll all the losers after this :) :) O0
Vilu Daskar!
Slagar.
Swarrt Sixclaw.
Quote from: Skarzs on August 31, 2016, 05:12:08 PM
Slagar.
I don't really understand why so many people seem to like Slagar, I fail to see what was special about him. Can someone please enlighten me?
He was strong-willed, extremely intelligent and had a nearly flawless plan. He also had an interesting backstory and a personal grudge against the main characters rather than being a random, uninteresting horde leader.
Quote from: alexandre on August 31, 2016, 07:32:55 PM
Quote from: Skarzs on August 31, 2016, 05:12:08 PM
Slagar.
I don't really understand why so many people seem to like Slagar, I fail to see what was special about him. Can someone please enlighten me?
Finally, another with the same opinion! High five!
O0
Quote from: Ashleg on August 31, 2016, 09:27:58 PM
Quote from: alexandre on August 31, 2016, 07:32:55 PM
Quote from: Skarzs on August 31, 2016, 05:12:08 PM
Slagar.
I don't really understand why so many people seem to like Slagar, I fail to see what was special about him. Can someone please enlighten me?
Finally, another with the same opinion! High five!
O0
Quote from: alexandre on August 31, 2016, 10:12:04 PM
O0Quote from: Ashleg on August 31, 2016, 09:27:58 PM
Quote from: alexandre on August 31, 2016, 07:32:55 PM
Quote from: Skarzs on August 31, 2016, 05:12:08 PM
Slagar.
I don't really understand why so many people seem to like Slagar, I fail to see what was special about him. Can someone please enlighten me?
Finally, another with the same opinion! High five!
O0
I guess Afro icons will do. XD
Quote from: Ashleg on September 01, 2016, 02:34:12 AM
Quote from: alexandre on August 31, 2016, 10:12:04 PM
O0Quote from: Ashleg on August 31, 2016, 09:27:58 PM
Quote from: alexandre on August 31, 2016, 07:32:55 PM
Quote from: Skarzs on August 31, 2016, 05:12:08 PM
Slagar.
I don't really understand why so many people seem to like Slagar, I fail to see what was special about him. Can someone please enlighten me?
Finally, another with the same opinion! High five!
O0
I guess Afro icons will do. XD
I suppose, they are my fav. ;) O0 O0 O0 º-)
why isnt dear old crazy cloggo am option??
While I greatly like the character Plugg Firetail, I'm not sure if he constitutes as a villain or a grey character. Regardless, I voted for him. :P
Quote from: Aimless Gallivanter on September 01, 2016, 03:51:06 AM
why isnt dear old crazy cloggo am option??
He lost to Badrang, :'( I voted for Clogg but he sadly lost :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Right now I'm only polling the winners of all the previous polls, then I will poll the losers, after that I'm thinking of changing this topic to a completely different poll. Also, it would be nice if someone moved this topic into Character discussion.
Nobody else thinks Swartt Sixclaw was a good villain? His only mistake (That I remember.) was to fight on unfavorable terrain in the final battle.
He was a good villain and that's about it.
Besides being a flunk husband and father, there was really nothing that stood out about his personality besides his strength.
Quote from: Ashleg on September 01, 2016, 04:12:34 AM
He was a good villain and that's about it.
Besides being a flunk husband and father, there was really nothing that stood out about his personality besides his strength.
Isn't that what we're voting about? ;D
He was also very clever, more clever than most of the villains in the books, mainly with the poisoning of that Warlord using the goblet.
Redwall's villains are one of it's weak points. They are mostly uninteresting with no motivation or reason and are just evil because of the inherent nature of their species. They rarely ever have personal histories with the protagonists and are mainly just a menacing force off in the distance.
Swartt was a good villain. By Redwall standards. However, nothing much about his personality stands out.
I voted for Ungatt Trunn because I've realised I honestly don't care about most of Redwall's villains, but in retrospect I should have voted Slagar.
Quote from: Delthion on September 01, 2016, 04:14:13 AM
Quote from: Ashleg on September 01, 2016, 04:12:34 AM
He was a good villain and that's about it.
Besides being a flunk husband and father, there was really nothing that stood out about his personality besides his strength.
Isn't that what we're voting about? ;D
He was also very clever, more clever than most of the villains in the books, mainly with the poisoning of that Warlord using the goblet.
By that I meant he was good at being evil and that's it.
They were all clever for the most part. ;)
I voted Vilu because he's classy and awesome.
Good at being evil is what a villain is supposed to be. But I understand what you are saying.
Quote from: Ashleg on September 01, 2016, 04:27:53 AM
Quote from: Delthion on September 01, 2016, 04:14:13 AM
Quote from: Ashleg on September 01, 2016, 04:12:34 AM
He was a good villain and that's about it.
Besides being a flunk husband and father, there was really nothing that stood out about his personality besides his strength.
Isn't that what we're voting about? ;D
He was also very clever, more clever than most of the villains in the books, mainly with the poisoning of that Warlord using the goblet.
By that I meant he was good at being evil and that's it.
They were all clever for the most part. ;)
I voted Vilu because he's classy and awesome.
The spoiler is of Lord Brocktree and The Legend of Luke. I don't know how to say what the spoiler is of inside the little spoiler icon :-\, if someone could inform me that would be great.
Spoiler
I picked Trunn, I feel like Trunn and Vilu were the most important villains in the books. They are the reason Redwall and Salamandastron became so strong. Salamandastron is more obvious, Ungatt was the reason that eventually the long patrol was founded and has been protecting the shores since. Without Vilu, Luke never would have left Martin, Martin would have never met Rose (although that would save me a lot of tears :) :'( :'( :'(), and Redwall might never have been (though eventually I'm sure someone would save the woodlanders), but it wouldn't be the same. I ultimately chose Ungatt who seemed to have more success, though Vilu might have if Luke hadn't made his final sacrifice.
Where is Gulo the Savage?
He was a loser.
Be that as it may, I liked him. He brought a, dare I say, savagery to the position. That and he ate some people.
No no, I mean he lost the poll. Not that I think he was a loser. ;D
Oh, didn't catch that. :P In that case, my vote goes Asmodeus.
Gulo would have had my vote, and he did have my vote in the poll in which he participated. ;D
I will now poll the losers
Princess Kurda.
I couldn't understand her accent, she wasn't scary, and she didn't do anything but go on a boat with her little brother and a fox she didn't like--and that was when she wasn't busy cutting up fruit. ::)
I was hoping that since Triss was the Queen of Marysuedom that at least something the villains did would save the book (as Brian had such a knack for writing them) but no, it didn't.
Sigh.
I initially voted Ferahgo because I didn't read the poll title and he was my favourite. I've since changed my vote to Kurda.
Brian Jacques had a knack for writing villains? I disagree. Quite strongly.
Personally, I don't see the value of going on about Redwall in particular being one-dimensional in its character portrayals, or trying to condemn it on that premise. For one thing, nobody complains about Morgoth, Sauron and the Orcs. There are plenty of other books featuring worlds that consist of gray characters, antiheroes, and antivillains, but that's not the kind of story that Mr. Jacques was inclined to tell. If you think that's the stuff that all good fiction is made of, then more power to you, I guess, but there are a lot of other people that disagree with that premise just as strongly.
I voted for Kurda, because she was pretty much useless, and died in a manner fitting that role. I was honestly baffled when three-quarters of the way through the book everybody started acting like she was some great swordsbeast. She was a pretty decent turnip-slicer; that's about it. She was an okay bully character, but a terrible major villain (getting outshone by both the snakes and Plugg Firetail).
Also, moved this topic to Character Discussion, since it is about characters and what people think of them.
I don't have a problem with some villains just being evil for the sake of being evil - I love the Joker, I love Skulduggery Pleasant's Darquesse and other characters in the same vein, providing they're done well, and providing they're not every single villain in the series. Redwall's villains usually don't take the gleeful abandon in doing horrible things that you'd expect or want of a villain of that kind, they just want to be rich and feared. And most of them are carbon copies of one another.
My two favourite villains are Ungatt Trunn, the forgotten son of a warlord with something to prove, and Slagar, the vengeful maniac with a mind to rival James Moriarty. Slagar's plan was flawless, and if he weren't a character in a book he would have gotten exactly what he wanted.
Dunno who voted for Graypatch, he was a great villain.
I myself voted for Korvus Skurr. As far as bird villains go, he wasn't particularly memorable and (as I'eve stated before) easily outshone by exemplary villains like General Ironbeak. Korvus didn't have anything memorable to his name, really - he ruled a subterranean kingdom of reptiles and carrion birds. Meanwhile, Ironbeak was known for his viciousness in the North and he conquered most, if not all of Redwall Abbey.
As far as the other villains on the poll go, Kurda was a letdown, and the rest were okay. (Except for Razzid. Nobody likes Razzid)
Rosie, why the Grepatch vote ???
Oops, I thought we were doing favorite villan still. ;D
I voted, but without putting as much thought into it as I could have. This is my full opinion.
At first glance, it's hard to say. Both badgers are large and strong creatures, so the room for difference can be found mainly in their armament, defenses, and mentality. Sunflash is known for carrying his mace (a large war club), and Brocktree has been alternately depicted with a sword in his story, and an axe from his appearance after death.
If the badgers are fully armored, a mace pretty clearly wins against a sword, by virtue of the steel being presumed equally good, and the club's impact damage being more useful in such a case. Against an axe, it's a case of short vs. medium-range, and the potential for the axe to possibly break the mace (which is not primarily made from metal, and seems potentially vulnerable to a bloodwrath-fueled swing with a badger battle axe). It's hard to say who would win that matchup, but I would give a slight edge to Brocktree, as he now has a range advantage and it seems the axe could at least potentially damage Sunflash's armor.
With no armor, it looks good for Brocktree. Badgers are notoriously tough, but given that their steel is famous for its durability and cutting power, I would trust that it can still hurt Sunflash to some degree. Badgers are obviously vulnerable to impact damage, though (as shown numerous times in Outcast), so neither combatant has a clear advantage in durability here.
I think the big difference in unarmored combat is in potential finesse. Sunflash never really had a mentor or training, and it shows; his strategy is basically "Get really mad and use my strength to break things". It's an all-out attack with no room for thought. I don't mean to knock his experience too much, because his fighting style usually worked for him against smaller creatures, but an equally powerful, more experienced and better trained fighter should be able to make quick work of his lack of defenses. Brocktree at least knew his father and the hares, so there's reason to suppose he had a few seasons to pick things up before he went off to do his own thing. That gives him the advantage in this fight.
So, Brocktree should have an edge in 3 out of 4 potential bouts.
Weapon reach is a huge advantage in battle, and as long as Brocktree can keep his distance, even with only Sunflash in the Bloodwrath I think Lord Brocktree would defeat him, especially in unarmored combat.
If they were armored, Brocktree's reach advantage may still give him the win because, while it doesn't have the bludgeoning power of a mace, his sword can still cause some serious concussive damage through armor. And if we are to have them wear the armor that they were described as wearing in the books, Sunflash's chain mail would be rather inferior to Brocktree's plate armor.
It is highly dependent, really. When are we talking about? Sunflash at the beginning of Outcast? At the end? In armor? Without? Fighting with characteristic weapons, or equal weapons?
Overall, I'd say Brocktree has the advantage, simply because he appears to be highly familiar with his weapon and generally well versed in combat. Sunflash is, I think, stronger, but that strength can be turned against him by a skilled opponent.
And the sword is highly effective, because it has a greater reach, high weight and is sharp. Additionally, it can be used for lunging, which a mace is highly ineffective at. Thrusting is a major component of swordsmanship which is difficult to counter with a mace.
@Skarzs: I actually hadn't thought about the possibility of there being any difference in armor quality. I'd have to reread it to know for sure, but I seemed to vaguely remember a picture of Sunflash in armor, and just assumed it was plate mail, same as the other badger lords I remember seeing. If it's only chainmail, then that
is a big weakness.
I was thinking about questioning the sword's reach advantage, just based on the weapons' respective length (and admittedly not taking into consideration that the mace must be swung a greater distance for greatest effect), but without reading the books, and just going by their covers, I think I've already changed my mind... that sword is
huge. If you go by the UK cover, it's about as long as Trunn's trident!
Sunflash wears chainmail with a cast helmet and shoulders. Still incredibly cumbersome.
Actually Sunflash might have the advantage if it comes to armor. Chainmail was created to stop thrusts and cuts from sword blades which negates some of the potential of Brocktree's massive sword. In fact if Brocktree was in full plate and Sunflash in chain it would turn into a slugging match, whose got the better speed, strength, and precision to provide enough impact damage to kill or maim the other badger. Sunflash's very name promotes the idea of his aggressive speed, and once he's in full bloodwrath one well placed blow from his mace and the battle is over.
As for skill levels we hardly know if Brocktree had proper swordsbeast training. Maybe he learned from his father, but that's hardly the same as years of serious battle training. On the other hand there is Sunflash who literally grew up fighting for survival, learning the tricks of battle through experience. He's naturally stronger, faster, and he's had rough paws on training from basically surviving, which is a far better trainer then any father-son bouts and tutoring.
If it was a up and at em fight I'd put my money on the big one.
We know he had battle training. Didn't you read about his fight with Ungatt Trunn?
In any case, plate armor is still better than chain, otherwise nobleman would have worn chain instead of plate. Plate was developed specifically to remedy certain defects in chainmail, such as its tendency to split and its uselessness against blunt force weapons.
Furthermore, being skewered on a swordpoint is prohibitive to victory.
Wasn't chain intended for use against arrows?
No, arrows could pierce chainmail and snap the links, at a decent range, English longbowmen could also pierce plate, but it is more resistant to arrows than chainmail. Chainmail was simply the form of armor that was a step up from scaled armor.
Actuallly, it's more effective against slices, since the rings are more likely to deform from a thrust- a lot of force over a small area of contact- rather than a cut- a lot of force over a larger area of contact. Against broad heads, sure, it would work fine, but bodkin arrows can still penetrate the mail, and if they get through, they're the same thickness all the way down the shaft so there's little friction left to stop it moving through.
Quote from: LT Sandpaw on September 21, 2016, 06:12:45 PM
Actually Sunflash might have the advantage if it comes to armor. Chainmail was created to stop thrusts and cuts from sword blades which negates some of the potential of Brocktree's massive sword. In fact if Brocktree was in full plate and Sunflash in chain it would turn into a slugging match, whose got the better speed, strength, and precision to provide enough impact damage to kill or maim the other badger. Sunflash's very name promotes the idea of his aggressive speed, and once he's in full bloodwrath one well placed blow from his mace and the battle is over.
If it was a up and at em fight I'd put my money on the big one.
While chain mail may stop the sword from cutting through completely (although they will fail eventually), it does little to stop the force of the hit itself, meaning that bones can and will break from a blow. Since plate armor is solid rather than interlinked rings, it's going to transfer the force of a blow over a much greater area, thus effectively cutting the force of blows to about half; though, as Sunflash's mace is described as having bits of metal stuck in it, it's possible he could still penetrate it.
Boar was portrayed as a more skilled swordsbeast so I voted for him.
Brocktree was still in his prime, and Boar was old when they both appeared, meaning Brock'd be stronger and faster than his son. On that line, Boar is only ever seen fighting searats, and Brocktree is more than capable of taking on wildcats.
My vote goes for Brock.
The idea in the polls is that the badgers are both in there prime, sorry I didn't mention that before. Otherwise there is way to much bias if everyone just applies the badgers skills to the age they choose.
Quote from: Groddil on September 25, 2016, 05:31:02 AM
Brocktree was still in his prime, and Boar was old when they both appeared, meaning Brock'd be stronger and faster than his son. On that line, Boar is only ever seen fighting searats, and Brocktree is more than capable of taking on wildcats.
My vote goes for Brock.
My vote goes to Brocktree too, but I do have to chime in here.
(SPOILERS)
Damung was a rat and he blinded Cregga, whereas Ungatt the wildcat wound up begging for mercy and then had his back snapped.
This is about Ripfang, a seasoned Pirate, not some pirate's son who didn't really earn anything. Also, it is worth noting that yes, Trunn was a great general, but didn't practice fighting like Brocktree did, and Boar apeared to have much more skill with a sword, we only saw that in his old age so I can only imagine what it was like in his prime.
Quote from: alexandre on September 25, 2016, 06:04:36 AM
This is about Ripfang, a seasoned Pirate, not some pirate's son who didn't really earn anything. Also, it is worth noting that yes, Trunn was a great general, but didn't practice fighting like Brocktree did, and Boar apeared to have much more skill with a sword, we only saw that in his old age so I can only imagine what it was like in his prime.
Ripfang who, mind, is just as old as Boar, is just a normal rat (not extra large like Cluny), and would be outmatched by pretty much every major villain ever, especially wildcats like Trunn and Tsarmina.
Quote from: Groddil on September 25, 2016, 06:10:39 AM
Quote from: alexandre on September 25, 2016, 06:04:36 AM
This is about Ripfang, a seasoned Pirate, not some pirate's son who didn't really earn anything. Also, it is worth noting that yes, Trunn was a great general, but didn't practice fighting like Brocktree did, and Boar apeared to have much more skill with a sword, we only saw that in his old age so I can only imagine what it was like in his prime.
Ripfang who, mind, is just as old as Boar, is just a normal rat (not extra large like Cluny), and would be outmatched by pretty much every major villain ever, especially wildcats like Trunn and Tsarmina.
Dude, They are all in there prime in my imaginary world, also I still think that you can't really say anything about Trunn's Battle skills since they aren't seen much in the book.
Ungatt was obviously skilled enough to avoid any rebellions of diobedience in the Blue Hordes. Any wildcat villain is known as a great fighter - Verdauga, Felis, Tsarmina. Wildcats are known as powerful, and Ungatt wasn't the exception.
We have seen throughout the series that skill isn't always the way of stoping rebellion, also just because boar didn't fight a wildcat in his prime,doesn't mean he couldn't
But we see that he was overcome by rats, which leads us to believe that he is weaker than Brocktree. Who fought off a wildcat, and based on his skill probably could have decapitated everybeast present at the duel with a single blow. ;D
Its hard to take two characters, that are practically the same, and figure out which one was better. However we do get to see some of Boar's personal skill when he's training Martin. Whereas we don't really see Brocktree do much fighting overall. He did slaughter some of the blue horde, but they were trapped, and outnumbered.
I dunno which one would win for certain, but I'll say Boar, because we see him fight far worse odds then Brocktree ever faced, when he was old. And he still managed to destroy an entire crew of searats, even though he did die in the process.
Quote from: Delthion on September 25, 2016, 05:25:29 PM
But we see that he was overcome by rats...
I've heard this argument against Boar before, on the old forum. It's no less goofy now than it was then.
We're not talking about one stupid little rat here. We're talking a
horde.
Quote from: MossflowerFrom both sides of the mountain they filtered out in a swift pincer movement. Trubb's estimate was right: there were hordes of them. Martin watched in silence as they formed a semicircle. He had never seen so many sea rats.
...
The roiling mass of enemies seemed endless. Martin and his comrades wiped sweat and blood from their eyes as they battered heroically away at the tide of sea rats which threatened to engulf them. The warrior mouse found himself back to back with Boar. "Boar, we're hard-pressed and outnumbered," he yelled over the noise of war. "It'd take us all season to slay this pack, even if they stood in line and waited."
Fighting
one wildcat is in no way comparable to taking on an army of rats.
Also, from what we know in
Mossflower, y'all are incredibly underrating Ripfang. Rather than him being "an ordinary rat captain" we know that he is "half again as large" as his rats, he has an innumerable horde on a massive pirate ship, and that he's personally enslaved all of the other pirates that used to sail near Salamandastron in that time period. Ripfang isn't some punk hanging outside the drug store; as I again said on the old forum, I think it's fair to say that he's what Gabool might have been, if he had stayed at sea instead of holing up in a castle.
Quote from: James Gryphon on September 25, 2016, 07:20:40 PM
Rather than him being "an ordinary rat captain" we know that he is "half again as large" as his rats,
/me didn't know that.
Cheers, James.
Brocktree is sort of my favorite, but I'm gonna go with Boar. I mean, he's literally called "the Fighter". (And he's my second favorite. Third is Russano.)
Quote from: Groddil on September 25, 2016, 11:27:37 PM
Quote from: James Gryphon on September 25, 2016, 07:20:40 PM
Rather than him being "an ordinary rat captain" we know that he is "half again as large" as his rats,
/me didn't know that.
Cheers, James.
Does that mean he was half as large as them, or half taller than them? :3
I think half as large, if my memory of the book is correct
I read it earlier today.
"Half again" means 1.5 times as large, or the midway point between 1 (no difference in size) and 2 (twice the size). So, take an ordinary rat, and add half their size onto another rat, and that's about the size we're looking at here.
Really? I always thought it was that he was very clever in battle based on what I remember and that his size could lead enimies to underestimate him. Also, I believe that an ongoing theme in the series is that the little guy becomes powerful. But if you read it earlier today you are probably right.
I remember him not being very well-developed, and his purpose was more of to take down Boar.
The next poll should be someone vs. Lady Cregga.
Winner = Lady Cregga. ;D
Quote from: Skarzs on August 17, 2016, 02:54:08 PM
Perhaps you can leave the polls up a little longer?
It has been awhile, but I finally obliged to your request :P ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :o :o :o :o :o :o ;) ;) ;) ;) :D :) :) :P :P :P ::) O:-) O:-) O:-) O:-) O:-) O:-) O0
Male European badgers are heavier than females, but only slightly larger overall. Both badgers are large and powerful creatures; Boar is probably more so, but Cregga is known for extreme Bloodwrathiness. All in all, strength and reach are probably not decisive factors here.
In armament, we're comparing a very large battle sword versus Cregga's halberd. The latter might have a little more range, but after seeing how hideously big Brocktree's was, and reasonably assuming that Boar's (which is described, albeit probably hyperbolically, as so big that the hares couldn't carry it) is similar, I'm not entirely sure about that. The sword is more maneuverable, too.
On defenses: Boar, like Brocktree, is heavily armored, in what his illustration depicts plainly as plate mail. Without rereading the book, to my knowledge, Cregga isn't known for wearing armor in Long Patrol (probably, given the circumstances, because bringing it along would have slowed her traveling). In my opinion, it's not unlikely that she wore it other times not depicted, as a lack of protection obviously doesn't mesh well with her preferred berserker fighting style, given the minor wounds she suffered in the fight with the blackbirds, and her being so readily blinded in the final clash with the Rapscallions.
If we assume neither badger is armored, this plainly gives Boar a big advantage, as the halberd's greater armor penetration is moot and he can go to work with his sword's greater maneuverability and good all-around cutting, slashing and stabbing power. With armor, the halberd is more useful, as it can be presumed to have more armor penetration than any sword.
The biggest, and in my opinion, deciding factors are experience and temperament. While Boar definitely had Bloodwrath at his side (Mariel outright stating that no badger lord, since Boar, had suffered it as heavily as Rawnblade Widestripe), we also see that he retains the ability to think during battle. He has great wisdom, knowledge and experience on his side that was unmatched by anyone else in the world at the time that he was alive (Martin wasn't even close). Cregga's Bloodwrath is her biggest weakness; she loses her head and charges blindly and directly into all of her attacks. If she kept her cool, as in sparring matches, she's clearly still a capable fighter, but I see no reason to suppose she is even with Boar in skill or that she could outthink him.
If neither have armor, I think it's a clear win for Boar. With armor is harder to say. I would still prefer Boar for the skill factor, but it isn't impossible that Cregga could eke out a win.
Quote from: Ashleg on September 27, 2016, 03:34:08 AM
Quote from: Delthion on September 27, 2016, 03:08:04 AM
Winner = Lady Cregga. ;D
Obviously!
Not if the one going up against Cregga is a certain creature by the name of...
Spoiler
Vallug Bowbeast (:P)
That was a totally different circumstance.
Quote from: Sagetip on September 29, 2016, 11:53:34 AM
That was a totally different circumstance.
Hence the (:P)
My vote goes to Cregga, I feel she had more determination :P O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0
None can compete with her Bloodwrath! ;D
Quote from: Delthion on September 30, 2016, 05:06:41 AM
None can compete with her Bloodwrath! ;D
@Delthion: Except apparently for a greatrat...
Cregga's Bloodwrath is, overall, a
disadvantage for her. Boar, who also had the condition, but was able to use it wisely, and is otherwise physically just as or more powerful as Cregga, slaughtered countless rats and crushed Ripfang (also a large, dangerous rat, who was much more experienced than Damug) to death while he led a party of ten beasts against a vast horde.
We didn't see Cregga accomplish anything even close with her uncontrolled fury.
I would (albeit, as an unashamed Boar fanboy) remind voters to remember this isn't the "which badger do I like better" poll, it's the "which badger would win" poll. Reasoned arguments should win the day here.
I was extremely disappointed by Boar in the books, so my vote would be with Cregga.
Quote from: Delthion on October 01, 2016, 03:48:17 AM
I was extremely disappointed by Boar in the books, so my vote would be with Cregga.
I voted for Cregga too, but why were you disappointed in Boar. I thought he was awesome.
I read Mossflower after most of the other books, and in Lord Brocktree when Stonepaw is in that chamber of dreams, "Boar the Fighter" was the best sounding name to me, and I really wanted to learn more about him. To find that his only mention in the book was forging Martin's Sword and dying terribly disappointed me.
Quote from: Delthion on October 01, 2016, 06:22:53 AM
I read Mossflower after most of the other books, and in Lord Brocktree when Stonepaw is in that chamber of dreams, "Boar the Fighter" was the best sounding name to me, and I really wanted to learn more about him. To find that his only mention in the book was forging Martin's Sword and dying terribly disappointed me.
I sort of understand, though from the sound of things, he had quite a few adventures before Martin. Sounds like a good idea for a fanfic...
- The Redwall Rat
Quote from: Delthion on October 01, 2016, 06:22:53 AM
I read Mossflower after most of the other books, and in Lord Brocktree when Stonepaw is in that chamber of dreams, "Boar the Fighter" was the best sounding name to me, and I really wanted to learn more about him. To find that his only mention in the book was forging Martin's Sword and dying terribly disappointed me.
I'm sorry that you didn't like his role in the story. But, that doesn't mean that Cregga would win in a fight. Do you have any arguments for her besides the one I responded to earlier?
I voted for Cregga based entirely on her halberd and legend, and the first battle that the Long Patrol fought against Rapscallions. She was said to have sank ships with that thing. A basic spear has a massive advantage over a sword simply due to length, and if Cregga can put speed and power behind her halberd she'd have a large advantage over Boar, not to mention the armor crushing abilities a halberd has over a simple sword.
I think like all these duels it could easily go either way, but I'd give Cregga the edge. I don't think Boar's strength and power would be enough to massively outdo Cregga's, so based on weapons Cregga wins.
This is just my preference, but I've always pictured Boar as a sort of legendary hero, like in the old Greek myths, come to life. I have a very hard time imagining anything that exists in the Redwall world beating him one-on-one.
I think you're underestimating the sword a bit. I appreciate the halberd's antiarmor effect, but the sword is also a massive weapon -- assuming it's like Brocktree and Rawnblade's, which seems fair, it's as big as Trunn's trident, and described by Gabool, not apparently jokingly, as a "great doorcleaver".
All in all, I think the skill, experience and mental factor is bigger than the weapon factor, especially if the two are fighting unarmored. (That said, I do confess a bias.)
Wasn't Gorath the Flame supposed to have even worse Bloodwrath than even Cregga if he didn't learn to control it. . . ?
Anyhow. . .
From the picture in the book, Cregga's halberd is little more than a glorified pickaxe, but assuming it's of historical length and build, it's a pretty good weapon. (Of course, every weapon has its advantages and disadvantages. Otherwise there would only be a few styles of weapons to have been used throughout history.) Not sure where I'm going with that.
I agree with James on his points, because even if they were both unarmored and, for the sake of leveling the playing field, of equal strength, what it would come down to is skill and control.
Somebody.. PLEASE :'( break the tie
Nay!
Tie broken, it seems.
Maybe, but the wrong way. :-\
The majority of us don't agree with you. 8)
Cregga's DA BEAST!
Cregga may well be a beast, but she wouldn't be able to beat Boar. For one thing, female badgers are generally smaller than males, if only slightly. Plus Cregga can't control her bloodwrath but Boar can. And he has a more manoeuvrable weapon.
All of two people, one of whom defected to break a tie, is hardly a decisive majority.
If Cregga is such an amazing warrior, why did she charge madly into battle and get blinded by a greatrat? A greatrat whose reach and range would have been significantly smaller than a badger wielding a halberd, I must say.
To put it bluntly, Cregga's Bloodwrath made her stupid. When gripped with it, she's no better a fighter than Gulo. Gulo's a good villain and all, but I don't see anybody claiming he could take a badger lord.
Actually, lots of people on this forum have said Gulo should have fought a badger.
From the story we read, he couldn't beat Rakkety Tam, a squirrel. There's no way that, given that record, he would have outfought a badger lord.
Actually, he did kinda beat Tam, it was the shield that killed him.
:-\
I'll go to the end on this forum saying that's not the way the poll should have gone down, but I guess it is what it is. At least this way we get to see a greater variety of characters?
As neither character used armor in the books that we see, this would seem to be by default an unarmored fight.
In a straight-up fight, unarmored, a giant bow beats a halberd. There's no other way to cut it. Some characters have been seen to take arrow hits, but not when they're giant arrows being shot by an adult badger. Lonna is an elite archer as well, so there's not much of a chance of him repeatedly missing Cregga's weak points, which is what it would take for him to not kill her. Given how Bloodwrath seems to work, I wouldn't be completely surprised if Cregga survived being shot long enough to get in a good swing at Lonna, but given how her, Mellus, and other badgers have died, I don't think that's very likely. Anyway, she would still die, so it can't be counted as a "win" for her.
If it isn't a straight-up fight, that is, we allow both characters room for maneuver in an environment with lots of cover, say, Mossflower forest, it isn't as bad a deal for Cregga. She could at least conceivably get the drop on Lonna. That said, though, given her brash, direct way of dealing with enemies, and Lonna's experience as a tracker, I don't give her great odds.
If we're nice to Cregga and give her a full set of top-notch plate armor, like I guessed she might have worn in battles near Salamandastron, the balance could swing the other way. Skarzs would probably have a better idea about the effects of arrows on maximum-quality armor than me, and is better-suited to answer that hypothetical.
Full plate armor of later Medieval times was pretty much invulnerable to arrows; it was like the Abrams tank of that age.
However, lesser armor is not so indestructible. In earlier times, good metal was hard to get, and even then, it was often of varying carbon content throughout a single piece. (Carbon is what makes steel strong.) So it could be relatively tough in one area, but in another be soft iron. Often it was of varying thickness as well, since they had no way of making uniform sheets of metal back then.
Assuming the armor is of badger make, and thus top quality from the examples in the books, then it should be able to stop an arrow from penetrating all the way through. However, it's not reasonable to think that it's full plate armor she would be wearing. Why? Because the armor that covered every part of the body and would stop arrows from all angles was meant to be worn on horseback. The most they could do off the horse was walk. And since no badger in the books ever rode some animal into battle, they would dress in armor that would allow for more speed and movement, meaning there would be considerable gaps in the armor at the joints. Even if those areas were protected by chain mail, arrows would find their mark if the bowman was a good shot.
There's a lot that goes unsaid in the books about wounds. It doesn't matter how determined you are or how little you feel the pain, if something has cut a tendon, then there is no moving that part. If Lonna was using a broadhead arrow, which is meant to slice its way through all types of tissue, this would be a serious problem for Cregga. Bodkin arrows would cause wounds that would be hard to heal because of the shape of it, but aren't as likely to sever tendons or nerves.
So, if Cregga was dressed in armor that didn't constrict her speed, Lonna may be able to take her down just by immobilizing her by shooting through the gaps in her armor.
That is, however, provided that Cregga was quite a ways away.
It's taught in self defense that the average person running to attack you can cover twenty feet in around 1.5 seconds. If the two confronted in close proximity, Lonna, great bowbeast that he is, would not be able to sling off a clean shot before Cregga would be upon him. If it were twice that distance, about forty feet, Lonna would have a better chance to shoot her, but would probably still not be able to immobilize her if she was wearing armor, since I think it would take at least three good arrows to do so. At sixty feet he might get two arrows in, and at one hundred he will have a pretty good chance. (This is all assuming Cregga has armor on.)
If she doesn't have armor, the chances of Lonna killing her is much more likely. Two well-placed arrows would probably be enough to take Cregga down, let's say one through the neck and another near the heart. (Or maybe straight through the eye. That'd do it.)
It's hard for this fight because it really depends on the distance the two begin fighting at. In other matches it's fairly easy to assume the setting of the fights because they're pretty close quarters. In this, however, we're talking about two entirely different distances. In close range, Cregga would win with or without armor, paws down. At longer range, Lonna would definitely kill Cregga without armor, but would likely only be able to immobilize her with armor, and then he can go in for the kill.
Have I ever mentioned that I like this topic?
You wrote more than James.
Quote from: James Gryphon on October 15, 2016, 05:49:50 AM
:-\
I'll go to the end on this forum saying that's not the way the poll should have gone down,
Sorry, all the regular voters had already put forth their votes, so their was no telling how long it would be till someone else came along and I was getting frustrated with the lack of discussion in General and Character Discussion, which are my two favorite boards, although, I agree it was hardly a decisive majority. :-\ .
Quote from: Skarzs on October 15, 2016, 06:51:42 PM
Full plate armor of later Medieval times was pretty much invulnerable to arrows; it was like the Abrams tank of that age.
However, lesser armor is not so indestructible. In earlier times, good metal was hard to get, and even then, it was often of varying carbon content throughout a single piece. (Carbon is what makes steel strong.) So it could be relatively tough in one area, but in another be soft iron. Often it was of varying thickness as well, since they had no way of making uniform sheets of metal back then.
Assuming the armor is of badger make, and thus top quality from the examples in the books, then it should be able to stop an arrow from penetrating all the way through. However, it's not reasonable to think that it's full plate armor she would be wearing. Why? Because the armor that covered every part of the body and would stop arrows from all angles was meant to be worn on horseback. The most they could do off the horse was walk. And since no badger in the books ever rode some animal into battle, they would dress in armor that would allow for more speed and movement, meaning there would be considerable gaps in the armor at the joints. Even if those areas were protected by chain mail, arrows would find their mark if the bowman was a good shot.
There's a lot that goes unsaid in the books about wounds. It doesn't matter how determined you are or how little you feel the pain, if something has cut a tendon, then there is no moving that part. If Lonna was using a broadhead arrow, which is meant to slice its way through all types of tissue, this would be a serious problem for Cregga. Bodkin arrows would cause wounds that would be hard to heal because of the shape of it, but aren't as likely to sever tendons or nerves.
So, if Cregga was dressed in armor that didn't constrict her speed, Lonna may be able to take her down just by immobilizing her by shooting through the gaps in her armor.
That is, however, provided that Cregga was quite a ways away.
It's taught in self defense that the average person running to attack you can cover twenty feet in around 1.5 seconds. If the two confronted in close proximity, Lonna, great bowbeast that he is, would not be able to sling off a clean shot before Cregga would be upon him. If it were twice that distance, about forty feet, Lonna would have a better chance to shoot her, but would probably still not be able to immobilize her if she was wearing armor, since I think it would take at least three good arrows to do so. At sixty feet he might get two arrows in, and at one hundred he will have a pretty good chance. (This is all assuming Cregga has armor on.)
If she doesn't have armor, the chances of Lonna killing her is much more likely. Two well-placed arrows would probably be enough to take Cregga down, let's say one through the neck and another near the heart. (Or maybe straight through the eye. That'd do it.)
It's hard for this fight because it really depends on the distance the two begin fighting at. In other matches it's fairly easy to assume the setting of the fights because they're pretty close quarters. In this, however, we're talking about two entirely different distances. In close range, Cregga would win with or without armor, paws down. At longer range, Lonna would definitely kill Cregga without armor, but would likely only be able to immobilize her with armor, and then he can go in for the kill.
Have I ever mentioned that I like this topic?
Wow, you and James always have useful input on the polls, also I would like to remind y'all that in the hypothetical battles, we assume the badgers are in their prime with their armor and weapon of choice in the book, we should also have a chosen battlefield for all the fights, for this one, given the abnormal weapon choice, I think the battle should take place in Mossflower woods, to base it solely on skill, without the obvious advantage of a bow out in the open.
In the most even setting, I think it could go either way, but I don't remember much about Lonna's skill, so my inclination is more towards Cregga in that situation.
Quote from: James Gryphon on October 15, 2016, 04:17:34 AM
From the story we read, he couldn't beat Rakkety Tam, a squirrel. There's no way that, given that record, he would have outfought a badger lord.
Gulo lost to Rakkety Tam out of really bad luck and to a lesser extent because of the supernatural help Tam received from Martin. Prior to Gulo jumping onto Tam in the ditch and getting thrown/pushed by Tam's legs onto the sharpened edge of the shield and subsequently beheaded by it he had basically won the fight. Tam was extremely lucky in this scenario. First of all, he managed to throw/push Gulo exactly where the shield had landed. Further to this point the shield landed in the ditch quite close to where Tam did. Secondly when Gulo flung the shield out of Tam's hands it got stuck in the ground so that the sharpened edge was pointing upwards. It did not, for example, fall flat on the ground which would have rendered the sharpened edges useless.
Prior to this Tam was not able to inflict any life threatening injuries on Gulo. He managed to cut off one of the wolverine's claws and also to pierce his foot paw with Martin's sword. Yet Gulo managed to rip Tam's leg and I believe arm open. And he also managed to force him into the ditch- with Tam being helpless to do anything. Furthermore, after throwing Gulo, Tam passed out for an unspecified amount of time. But it was clearly longer than a few seconds or minutes since he woke up with his leg in a spline. This would have taken even an expert healer longer than a few seconds or minutes to do. It is probably safe to assume that the blood loss resulting from the injury to his leg was the cause of this. Given this I think it is safe to assume that Tam's injuries were life threatening and that he could have very well died if he had not gotten immediate medical care from the highly skilled Abbey healers.
He also sharpened his shield jus because Martin's spirit told him to do so. Because he/it "knew" Gulo would get thrown onto the shield. Otherwise I have never heard of a shield with sharpened edges either in real life/history or in the Redwall series. I imagine a shield with such edges would be more of a liability, or at the very least not particularly useful, than an asset.
I would argue that if the fight between Gulo and Tam was run say a 1000 times, like they did in the show deadliest warrior, Gulo would probably win significantly more times than Tam. Since a lucky blow isn't going to make much difference over so many fights/simulations. And its unlikely that a repeat of the above scenario which killed Gulo would happen often. He dominated the fight prior to this.
Finally, if Gulo had a weapon that capitalized on brute strength, like say Cregga's halberd, Sunflash's mace or even a large badge sword- Tam's odds would get much worse. Such a weapon would have been much more dangerous in his hands than the squirrel sized claymore than he used.
Now why I say this in regards to Badger Lords is that even a badger lord could get killed by Tam, a squirrel, from a "single lucky blow". Even the most skilled warrior can lose to an inexperienced one, however it isn't very likely- the odds are obviously on the side of the more skilled combatant but its no guarantee of victory. Hence who wins a fight more times and not every time would be the winner. Which in this case would be a Badger Lord.
I agree though that a berserk badger lord like say Cregga, who never demonstrated much skill with their weapon would lose to a highly skilled one like Boar who had learned to be more level headed and composed during battle. Simply because they would not be able to overwhelm with brute strength like Gulo could Tam. Or like Cregga could other lesser/weaker foes. Neither of them fought a foe that was close to their level of strength. This is also why I think Gulo could fair fairly well against Badger Lords that fought more with brute strength than skill. Assuming Gulo also had a weapon suited to this as well. There is also no indication that Cregga, a female badger, would be stronger than a male badger like Boar. Assuming both are in their prime. So I also like you do not see any advantage that Cregga would have over Boar.
Very good post on the subject, Grond!
I agree with your post in general, Grond. Gulo is one of- indeed, I think it no stretch of the imagination to say he was definitively- the most dangerous villain in all the Redwall series. His strength was unparalleled, and while he was not intelligent, he was very cunning (even in insanity). Furthermore, he was terrifically vicious and bloodthirsty by nature, and so was not afflicted by the bloodwrath which badger Lords almost inevitably carry. In fact, I can think of no warrior hero in the series who could reasonably best him a majority of the time- including badger Lords/Ladies and the legendary Martin the Warrior. Simply, as a wolverine his combat capabilities quite exceed those of other species. So let us not judge Tam too harshly- it should be remembered that he was a highly skilled and seasoned warrior, no Triss. He is shown dispatching competent vermin and even his withstanding and minor harming of Gulo is highly impressive, seeing as even seasoned Long Patrol warriors succumbed to Gulo's fury without harming him.
In a supposed "fair fight", my money would be on Gulo over any other beast, including badgers. Gulo has been around for long enough to know a proper enemy when he sees one (he has fought other wolverines), and while his intelligence may be low, his combat cunning is high. He would prepare, fight dirty, overbear, and use any and every advantage that he could. Not having bloodwrath, he would be more perceptive than an enemy with it, yet any enemy without it would be hopelessly outmatched by his strength. Armor in this case ought to be discounted. Allowing Gulo any weapon of choice to counter a badger weapon would simply add more in his favor. Even the size advantage would be his, as he is described as larger than a badger. Strategy would be the only real way to defeat him, but these sorts of battles do not really allow for the implementation of large or intricate strategies, enough to totally outclass Gulo's thinking.
Cregga all the way!
Cregga! CREGGA!
Is that just because you like Cregga better? ;)
Plus, I mean, she survived through more books and any other character I can recall.
She wouldn't have died from paw-to-paw combat if it wasn't for that arrow.
Quote from: Ashleg on October 27, 2016, 08:47:57 PM
Plus, I mean, she survived through more books and any other character I can recall.
She wouldn't have died from paw-to-paw combat if it wasn't for that arrow.
Bella's lifespan was similar to Cregga's, she appears in 3 books and never any serious injuries. Yet I don't see anyone claiming that Bella was the greatest badger warrior due to her longevity.
Cregga never demonstrated any particularly impressive feat for a badger lord. While she wielded a pike that took 4 non-badger beasts to lift- it is unclear even maybe unlikely that this is an impressive feat of strength for other badgers. In the book Long Patrol- Tammo witnesses beasts flying in the air as Cregga was charging through the Rapscallion army to get to Damung. However, all of the beasts in the Rapscallion army where significantly smaller and weaker than her. And it is a feat that other badgers could accomplish. Muta- a completely untrained female badger killed around a score of the Foxwolf's horde and I believe he mentions that some of the rats were flying through the air...
There is also the matter that Cregga threw away her weapon and grabbed Damung with her bare hands in the middle of a battle. She subsequently jumped off the ridge with him. He inflicted serious injuries to her face as a result. Having gouged or slashed both her eyes out- rendering her blind for life. She was rather fortunate to survive such injuries. Now Damung was not a particularly formidable opponent. Even though he was a great rat, and larger than a normal rat, he was still physically smaller than Lugworm. Who by all descriptions was a fairly average stoat. Furthermore, Damung also never demonstrated any great skill with his sword. Such a reckless act would have likely proven fatal against a significantly stronger opponent.
Shifting gears, Raga Bol's crew killed Lonna's older companion and nearly killed Lonna himself. If not for the otters he would have died to. Raga Bol's crew after the fight with Lonna numbered, from what I recall, around 50 or so searats. I do not remember if it is mentioned how many of them died fighting in the cave against Lonna. But this example demonstrates the short comings of Lonna's primary weapon- a bow in such a small and confined area as a cave. It is obviously much more effective at greater distances and combat in the open.
Now for comparison, Rawnblade on his own managed to kill the entire crew of the Waveblade. Which was a 100 searats strong. He only suffered minor injuries in the process. Boar succumbed while fighting with Ripfang's crew- although how many searats Ripfang had under his command is unclear. But Rawnblade's killing of the Waveblade's entire crew is, from what I can recall, the largest number of foe beasts killed by a single combatant over the course of a single battle. Badger or otherwise. Rawnblade also gauged solid rock walls with his claws in his forge room when the Bloodwrath came upon him. Indicating his Bloodwrath would have probably been as bad as Cregga's. He also demonstrated the ability to somewhat control it prior to attacking the crew of the Waveblade. But he had no control over it during his fight with Gabool- nearly dying twice as a result.
Gabool first managed to stick a dagger in Rawnblade's chest or breastplate. This would have been a fatal or at the very least a serious injury had Rawnblade not been wearing his breastplate or had the weapon been longer and of a better quality of steel. He also got lured into the scorpion's pit by Gabool and was nearly killed by it as well. Only the intervention of the spirit of Martin the Warrior saved him.
Quote from: Sagetip on October 15, 2016, 07:14:51 PM
You wrote more than James.
lol, Your profile pic goes perfectly with that
Should I call it a bowstripe win or leave it longer?
Well, according to the poll, yeah. Besides, Cregga's been in one before.
New Poll
Mm. Well, it's kind of the same as with against Cregga, a close-range weapon versus long range. Except that with Orlando, he doesn't have a very noteworthy case of the Bloodwrath, which he was only described to have during the fight in the underground kingdom. The fight would be very similar to the previous one, though with the potential for Orlando to be a little more intelligent than Cregga with her ever-present Bloodwrath.
So because of that, I honestly want to vote for Orlando because I like his story more than Lonna's.
*revive*
Honestly i'd recast my vote for Rawnblade at this point.