Redwall Abbey

I just re-watched Season 2 for the sake of being a nerd, and I would like to talk about my past and present experience with it.

Honestly guys, when I first heard about the Redwall cartoon, I was reluctant to even give it a chance. I mean, it is no secret that I love cartoons... a lot, but at the time I was just finishing a masterpiece of animation like Watership Down and I thought that this other cartoon wasn't going to be able to live up with my -already huge- expectations because it had to follow one that absolutely delighted me. Such a hard task... and it surprisingly achieved its goal... I really liked Redwall.

At the time that I gave it its first -and only- chance I was working on two jobs and doing chores on the afternoons, WHILE playing two sports at the same time... it was a total mess, but I liked this cartoon so much that I actually "flew" thru it in less than a week (often staying up late and being unable to turn the computer off). I loved the story, the setting, the characters (and their voices)... pretty much everything was a hit with me. I liked it SO much that I was actually sad when Season 1 came to an end. Still, I remember that after watching Seasons' 1 final episode several times, I finally moved onto Season 2, being reasonably and expectantly excited about it.

Well... let's just say that, while Season 1 took me a week to watch, Season 2 took me a whole month and I'm still amazed that I even got thru it. Why? For a lot of reasons.

First of all, I think that the cartoon was overly eager to be done with itself and move onto another thing... it really tries to force everything it can down your throat and it even expects you to digest it fast. I mean, we have this kid Mattimeo, who is kind of a rebel on his own way and is very different from Matthias; that could have been a great idea, but the character is given little-to-no development at all and the results are tasteless. There's also this rat living on Redwall Abbey that is obviously a spy but nobody seem to mind it... the idea COULD have had a lot of potential, but once again the show rushes thru it and the whole situation gets resolved in one or two episodes. I'm sure that the book gives it a better treatment, but this is just the art of missing opportunities just for the heck of it.

Another thing that I don't like is the pacing... look, Season 1 had the perfect pacing, it was never too fast nor too slow and it shows, but Season 2 made me feel like if someone had stolen my remote control and was playing with the Fast Forward and Rewind buttons at will. In fact, the whole situation made me "invent" my own war-cry... and instead of "Wot,Wot", I was shouting: "Wait, What?" (:P).

I don't even know why I'm trying to find the right words to describe the rather gray experience that that cartoon delivers, when the opening sequence does it for me... let's compare Season 1 and 2, shall we?


Now, what does Season 2 have to offer?


I know that I have talked about the pacing quite a bit, but that's really a problem for me because I'm used to fast-paced, maniac cartoons (Season 1 was a lot like that, actually) and this thing was not making it easy for me to sit thru it. Most of the episodes felt like an endless cycle, with Slegar and the slaves walking thru different locations while Matthias and his allies were right after them, always two or even three steps behind and always being fooled by the first group (that is incredibly off-model and off-character for the mouse and was a little awkward the first time I saw it). There were, however, three or four episodes that really moved the story forward and were action-packed Redwall at its best... problem is, they didn't last, and we were soon back to the old routine again (which was a huge disappointment).

Honestly, the only thing that really stands out on this whole Season is General Ironbeak and even him seems rushed and he feels like if he would be more at home somewhere else. To top if off, the final battle that the whole Season was building up to felt more like a chore than anything else. And, while it really did have some memorable moments, it didn't feel exciting in the slightest because Season 3 would do the slave thing again, with far more success.

Oh yeah! There was something else I liked about "Mattimeo": even when no character is fully developed, it allowed a great amount of them to have screentime and some of them even had quite a bit of dialogue, which made the Abbey seemed a lot more populated than it was on Season 1 and it also made it feel more like a diverse community rather than a building full of mice.

But truth to be told, this was a very bland season and, while it didn't feel like a waste of time, it really got dangerously close to that definition.

For many, it seems you just summed up the general vibe of the book Mattimeo, too.

This is an awesome and in-depth post, Sierra.  I'd love to contribute more to the discussion of it when I've re-watched the show.

Is it all on YouTube? I would like to watch Season 1 :)

Quote from: rrrrr on May 10, 2015, 05:14:40 PM
Is it all on YouTube? I would like to watch Season 1 :)

Yep, all three seasons are on YouTube.

Anyway...

I think Mattimeo (the book) is kinda boring. This may or may not be partly due to the fact that I watched the show before reading the book, but yeah.

Quote from: Jukka the Sling on May 10, 2015, 05:46:00 PM

Quote from: rrrrr on May 10, 2015, 05:14:40 PM
Is it all on YouTube? I would like to watch Season 1 :)

Yep, all three seasons are on YouTube.

Anyway...

I think Mattimeo (the book) is kinda boring. This may or may not be partly due to the fact that I watched the show before reading the book, but yeah.

You know? Mattimeo is one book I'm not looking forward to read and that's precisely because of the TV Series. I have found "Redwall" to be hard to read, but it was delicious in its own, personal way, and that's because of the TV Series too. I wonder how Season 3 holds up against its written counterpart.

Which book is Season 3 about?

Quote from: rrrrr on May 10, 2015, 10:51:22 PM
Which book is Season 3 about?

Martin the Warrior.

What do you think of Season 3 compared to the other two? I'm kinda curious.

Quote from: SoranMBane on May 10, 2015, 11:34:37 PM
What do you think of Season 3 compared to the other two? I'm kinda curious.

This is what I think of Season 3:

*I'm still working on the grammar for this one, though*.

Ok, Season 3 was everything Season 2 tried so hard to accomplish, but couldn't quite do it. It really brought the series back to the right path and allowed a lot of changes that made it one of the most memorable ones on the show's history... which only adds to the frustration to know that there weren't any more seasons after this one, because one can only wonder what would have come out of this now that the writers, animators and directors finally understood what Redwall was all about. In fact, I think that Season 3 was the best season on the show, because it took everything that made the first one so good and it multiplied it multiple times over.

Let's go back to the intro one last time, shall we?


I guess that it is obvious to say that Season 3 was a breath of fresh air for me. Once again, I flew thru it in less than a week and I enjoyed the experience very much. The show used some silly tricks that I didn't really appreciate (those guys trying to play a deadly game with the group were a bit pathetic in my opinion, but the show would do something amazing with them later on, so it was not that much of a big deal now that I think about it) but it kept it quality above average during its entire run time. I like how, for the first time in a LONG time, we actually got to met the characters on a more personal level (being able to actually met Rose's hometown and relatives was a amazing detail that I didn't actually expect) and thus, I really cared about them more than I did with anyone from either Redwall or Mattimeo. I also love the idea of having multiple foes to fight this time, instead of either Cluny or Slegar with Ironbeak... the idea works this time because the group fights these new enemies at the same time, instead of having one group taking charge of each of the "bad guys" (seriously, how many times am I going to have to go back to "Mattiemeo"?).

Another thing I really liked about this whole situation is that our two main villains actually interact on this, making for some great sub-plots. Not only Badrang and Clogg give their absolute best every time they have to share a common location, but it is also incredibly hilarious to see how they always try to sabotage or back-stab each other, usually creating ridiculously complicated and highly ineffective plots to get rid of the other one and rule Marshank at will. It is pretty cool to know that, when the action is not focused on our main characters, the show has something to offer... in fact, when everybody converges at said fort the results of the combined idiocy of these two would make for a strangely epic series finale.

There are some things that I don't like, though. The character of Martin starts off really strong on the show, but, as the series progress, the attention is put almost exclusively on Rose. That wouldn't be bad if played smoothly, but that sadly isn't the case. Granted, Rose is a really interesting character (one of the most interesting ones to appear on this show) but the action and screentime should have been split a little more in between the main protagonists of this cartoon. I also find it kind of annoying that both Grumm and Pallum seem to be written out of some of the episodes (specially during the second part of the Season)... they do get some lines here and there, but their contribution seems less and less important as the series goes (this is especially true on Pallum's side).

I'm also a little annoyed at the lack of care that is given to the character of Luke the Warrior. He appears on the intro (heck, he does it a few times during the entire sequence) and is directly responsible of the plot, by giving Martin his sword, but he's never seen nor heard of again right after his job is done. I understand that the writers needed to cram a lot of stuff on a relatively short time-slot, but this was just lazy. Because, when we get down to it, what do we really know about that character? Not enough to fill up a napkin, that's how much we know about him.

Now, I gotta admit that the "Fur and Freedom fighters" idea is one of the most clever, well-executed and even kind of epic that I have seen on this show. It is really obvious at first glance that a lot of love and care went into this particular part of the series. I like how for the first -and probably only- time on the program different people working towards a common goal have different approaches and even differences of opinions regarding how to achieve said goal. There's no more "let's all defend Redwall" or "do what Cluny says", but instead we have people trying to attack and destroy Marshank to prevent more slavery from happening and the other group of slaves just trying to move on and leave the fort behind as a bad memory. The idea works so well because, as would later be implied, no side has the right angle nor the perfect solution... taking too much risks and being moved by sheer anger would only lead to tragedy, but avoid everything in its entirely would also lead to more unpleasant results. Heck, at the end only those who refused to take out the blindfold were the ones that ended up being killed or losing someone close to them. I find the message strong and the execution brilliant (and even a little moving).

All in all, I can't really say that I liked every trick that this cartoon pulled off (the "recycled" models on Ballaw and Rowanoak were an unpleasant surprise) but it at least TRIED to do things right and, in that regard, Season 3 was a HUGE step in the right direction. It is a tremendous shame that the show had to die right after this new incarnation was done, but it at least went on a high note... and that's something that not every cartoon can accomplish (http://redwallabbey.com/forum/index.php?topic=7786.0).

I pretty much agree with all of that; Martin the Warrior is what I'd personally consider one of the best books in the Redwall series, so it stands to reason that the season based on it would be the strongest of the bunch. The show was still visibly held back by its limited resources, and they sometimes went a bit too far in toning down the violence (I mean... Tickle-torture? Really?), but I think they did a significantly better job of working with what they had for Season 3. It is a shame they couldn't at least do one more season based on Mossflower; I would have loved to see what they would have done with Gonff, plus then we would have gotten to meet the bats. Bats.

Quote from: SoranMBane on May 11, 2015, 05:42:19 AM
I pretty much agree with all of that; Martin the Warrior is what I'd personally consider one of the best books in the Redwall series, so it stands to reason that the season based on it would be the strongest of the bunch. The show was still visibly held back by its limited resources, and they sometimes went a bit too far in toning down the violence (I mean... Tickle-torture? Really?), but I think they did a significantly better job of working with what they had for Season 3. It is a shame they couldn't at least do one more season based on Mossflower; I would have loved to see what they would have done with Gonff, plus then we would have gotten to meet the bats. Bats.

YES! The freaking tickle-torture was one of the very few things that I most strongly disliked about Season 3 and the cartoon in general (so strongly that I actually forgot of its existence... guess that my brain was doing me a favor there). And you know what I find actually aggravating? The Watership Down cartoon was made a few years earlier by different people BUT for the same public, and they didn't have much trouble with the violence there (heck, we see a character getting crushed under a rock, being presumed dead, and being mauled as a result... and I mean MAULED).

By "limited results" you mean the animation, right? Because I would have to agree with you there... most of the time it is ok, but something it gets incredibly rubbery and even a little slow (there's a particular shot on the first opening in which a swath of arrows "rains" over the incoming army and the perspective was SO messed up that it was incredible). And of course... we have Season's 2 "blending" with characters getting lost on the background when their clothes are too dark.

What do you disagree with the article, Soran? :)!

I have to disagree with you on one point. (well, only if you've already read Martin the Warrior)

Luke is mostly mentioned by name in the book. He gets a sort of cameo at the beginning as you said, but mostly stays as a complete backround character. I mean, Martin never mentions his father to Rose, or Grumm or Pallum, right?

Otherwise, I haven't seen Season 2 in a long time, so yeah.

QuoteI have to disagree with you on one point. (well, only if you've already read Martin the Warrior)

I haven't read it, but I appreciate the input :)

QuoteLuke is mostly mentioned by name in the book. He gets a sort of cameo at the beginning as you said, but mostly stays as a complete backround character. I mean, Martin never mentions his father to Rose, or Grumm or Pallum, right?

You know? I think that he never does it. He mentions him because of the sword, but I don't think that he ever went into the trouble of explaining who his father was to the others (I can be wrong, though, it's been a while).

Quote from: TheTaleOfSierra on May 11, 2015, 04:45:03 PM
By "limited results" you mean the animation, right? Because I would have to agree with you there... most of the time it is ok, but something it gets incredibly rubbery and even a little slow (there's a particular shot on the first opening in which a swath of arrows "rains" over the incoming army and the perspective was SO messed up that it was incredible). And of course... we have Season's 2 "blending" with characters getting lost on the background when their clothes are too dark.

What do you disagree with the article, Soran? :)!

Yeah, this series was clearly made on a tiny budget, and it shows with some clumsy animation, stilted action, and painfully-obvious character model recycling. Plus we occasionally get weird little animation hiccups like this:
(http://i.imgur.com/sNJUIdN.png)
In case you can't tell, that character at the bottom right there appears to have some sort of duplicate eye floating in front of the character behind her. Just a few moments after this, she bends forward and the eye on her face just sort of converges with the eye floating in front of her. It's kind of unsettling.

But, again, considering the restraints they must have been working under, they did a far better job of making it work in Season 3 than they did with the first two seasons; the animation missteps aren't quite as noticeable here.

As for things I disagreed with, well... I assume that when you say "those guys trying to play a deadly game with the group were a bit pathetic," you're talking about the Gawtrybe squirrels, right? I would disagree with you there if we were talking about their book counterparts, but, yeah, they are a bit pointless in the animated version, aren't they? You see, in the book, while the Gawtrybe themselves aren't particularly complex, their section of the story does actually serve to provide Martin with some character depth. There's a bit where Martin very nearly takes things too far after he defeats the Gawtrybe's leader during their big fight. It's a scene that shows that our hero is "fighting with anger" (or "letting his heart rule his mind," as the line goes in the book) just as his father warned him not to do when he passed on the sword, something Martin continues to do through the rest of the story until it ultimately leads to tragedy. But, of course, we don't get that in the animated version; he just sort of beats the Gawtrybe leader with little fuss. It's not nearly as interesting.

What I also didn;t like in the first season was how they recycled scenes. Everytime Cluny's army was in the ditch, they used the exact same scene: the two sides exchanging arrows.

QuoteYeah, this series was clearly made on a tiny budget, and it shows with some clumsy animation, stilted action, and painfully-obvious character model recycling. Plus we occasionally get weird little animation hiccups like this:
(http://i.imgur.com/sNJUIdN.png)

In case you can't tell, that character at the bottom right there appears to have some sort of duplicate eye floating in front of the character behind her. Just a few moments after this, she bends forward and the eye on her face just sort of converges with the eye floating in front of her. It's kind of unsettling.

But, again, considering the restraints they must have been working under, they did a far better job of making it work in Season 3 than they did with the first two seasons; the animation missteps aren't quite as noticeable here.

Well yeah, that's a pretty big animation mistake (if the scene isn't quick enough to actually notice the change, then it would distract me from pretty much everything else. And, on my case at least, it would only make me go "hunting" for more errors).

I don't know about you, but I feel that the animation drops entirely during night time... every time we are facing the dark, we can clearly see that what they did was to just "obscure" the models a little bit, instead of drawing them on night colors. It is a pretty effective technique to save costs, but it shows.

QuoteAs for things I disagreed with, well... I assume that when you say "those guys trying to play a deadly game with the group were a bit pathetic," you're talking about the Gawtrybe squirrels, right?

Yes, I was never too good with names :P

QuoteI would disagree with you there if we were talking about their book counterparts, but, yeah, they are a bit pointless in the animated version, aren't they? You see, in the book, while the Gawtrybe themselves aren't particularly complex, their section of the story does actually serve to provide Martin with some character depth. There's a bit where Martin very nearly takes things too far after he defeats the Gawtrybe's leader during their big fight. It's a scene that shows that our hero is "fighting with anger" (or "letting his heart rule his mind," as the line goes in the book) just as his father warned him not to do when he passed on the sword, something Martin continues to do through the rest of the story until it ultimately leads to tragedy. But, of course, we don't get that in the animated version; he just sort of beats the Gawtrybe leader with little fuss. It's not nearly as interesting.

Well, it is not like if I think that the scene was a complete waste of time or anything, it is just that it kind of came out of nowhere and it didn't add up to the story in my opinion (it was actually kind of annoying). I also don't get why they couldn't do what they did on the book here... I don't think that it would have been considered "too violent" if it wasn't violent at all.

Then again, those guys do something kind of epic at the end of the series, but I feel like we could have done fine without the fight (even worse, if I remember correctly, the fight was cliffhanger that "connected" two episodes... grrr). But yeah, I agree with you; if it had done like the book, it could have been awesome.

personally, i feel the TV show never really held its own against the books(probably because i prefer more blood and gore in animation  :P) but i was actually sad when i found out there was only three seasons

another glitch where constance is standing next to the prisoners of slagar in season 2

I was never a fan of the tv show. I didn't like how they changed a lot of things. Though, I honestly like season 2 better then the others.

I think the thing we tend to forget is that the TV show was aimed at the 7-10 years old demographic. The violence that is portrayed in the books had to be toned down to ever have a chance at being on the air at all, and even more so, nowadays. When I go back to watch the show, I try to put on the eyes of the kid I was when I first watched the show. I find that I can forgive many on the story conceits when I do that.

All this being said, I think season 2 holds up fairly well, considering Mattimeo is the second book in the series that Brian originally intended to be a single story for blind kids he read to. It may have flaws, but Mattimeo is a decent story that I still revisit because it stands on its own merit. Don't discount it until you have read it.

Quote from: Matthias720 on May 17, 2015, 04:18:59 PM
I think the thing we tend to forget is that the TV show was aimed at the 7-10 years old demographic. The violence that is portrayed in the books had to be toned down to ever have a chance at being on the air at all, and even more so, nowadays. When I go back to watch the show, I try to put on the eyes of the kid I was when I first watched the show. I find that I can forgive many on the story conceits when I do that.

But the problem isn't that they toned down the violence, it's that they went so far with it that they often wound up crippling the emotional chords of certain scenes and talking down to their audience. It's entirely possible to make an animated action-adventure series of this sort be both dramatic and child-friendly (take Avatar: The Last Airbender, for example), all it would have taken is some clever editing and a bit more respect for their young audience.

I don't disagree with your points. ATLA did all of those things masterfully. However, keep in mind that the company that created the Redwall TV series, Nelvana, is known for educational programming geared towards a youth/pre-teen audience. Nickelodeon, however, makes content for all ages, and their experience covers a wider scope of entertainment, across multiple platforms. Basically, while Nelvana certainly could have ramped up the drama, it's not the kind of entertainment they are know for, and things could have ended up quite differently. Also, if Redwall had been made more dramatic, the show might not have ended up on certain TV stations, like PBS.

simply, the TV show suffers from the same problems that the Hobbit movies did, replace the good scenes for new ones that ultimately made it worse

I saw Season 1 (at least the first few episodes)

It was pretty good :)

I didn't get it at first though when they were doing Matthias's history :P

It was all good after ;D

Season 2 looks interesting, though, I haven't read Mattimeo :P

Quote from: CpnRake335 on May 17, 2015, 07:48:01 PM
simply, the TV show suffers from the same problems that the Hobbit movies did, replace the good scenes for new ones that ultimately made it worse

I could go on and on about defending the Hobbit movies, but I'll hold it back. Just PM me if you want to hear my rant.

Desolation is objectively terrible, do not even try to defend it. The other two are alright though.

Quote from: Jetthebinturong on May 20, 2015, 08:23:47 AM
Desolation is objectively terrible, do not even try to defend it. The other two are alright though.

Wasn't the plot the company getting to Laketown and Bilbo talks to Smaug?

Back on topic, I think Season 2 wasn't such a huge letdown, but one must wonder how they managed to fop up a nice book like that.

Quote from: Lord_Ashenwyte on May 20, 2015, 01:16:07 PM

Quote from: Jetthebinturong on May 20, 2015, 08:23:47 AM
Desolation is objectively terrible, do not even try to defend it. The other two are alright though.

Wasn't the plot the company getting to Laketown and Bilbo talks to Smaug?

Back on topic, I think Season 2 wasn't such a huge letdown, but one must wonder how they managed to fop up a nice book like that.

In all fairness, I think that I might have been a little harsher on this case than I probably should have been. But coming from Season 1 (where almost every episode was a highlight), this was incredibly weak.

Heck, I kid you not when I say that the only memorable character on this season -aside from General Ironbeak, that is- was that archer rat wearing camouflage whose name I keep forgetting... woah, what a perfect analogy :P 

Greyfleck.

Quote from: Sagetip, the hare on May 21, 2015, 02:57:01 PM
Greyfleck.

Thanks man, I keep forgetting those darn names... he was pretty cool, though.

I watched the series when I was around 6-8 after having read some of the books and from what I remember I enjoyed it as a kid but I went through and rewatched the series again and I cringe at some points because some of it feels so forced. I still enjoy it though and think it has it's good points. I know it's a kids show but even for that it's lacking. I will say it's better then today's kid shows.
My favorite female character from the series is probably Constance.

Yay!

I love when Constance picks up the table and is about to throw it at Cluny and co.

Quote from: Sagetip, the hare on May 21, 2015, 02:57:01 PM
Greyfleck.

*Stonefleck

Quote from: rrrrr on May 21, 2015, 06:12:33 PM
Yay!

I love when Constance picks up the table and is about to throw it at Cluny and co.

Constance is a very interesting character indeed... probably one of the highlights of Season 1, and definitely a shinning example of what a good voice-actor can do for a character. Seriously, before I got to hear her voice, I had zero confidence on the character (hey! Why's the MAID beating everyone up?) but her voice-actor really brought a lot of passion to the role and her performances were incredibly delicious to listen to. Whatever else I could say about the character, the "voice-acting" box would remain checked.

It's funny that in the audiobooks they almost always cast Beth Cassady as the badger females.

Quote from: Sagetip, the hare on May 21, 2015, 11:30:45 PM
It's funny that in the audiobooks they almost always cast Beth Cassady as the badger females.

That kind of disappointing, Janet Wright's voice is my favorite on the entire series (with Lindsey Connell's Rose coming as a close second).

I guess that Beth Cassady is even better, then.

;-; I always loved the second series, but I guess I'm too young and cant see the bad stuff.  ;D

I am the absolute reverse of your opinion. I think that Mattimeo was the best, followed closely by Martin the Warrior. Also, I actually loved the reuses of scenes because of how old fashioned it looks.