So as we all know, badgers are pretty much the strongest creatures in the Redwall universe, only mat he'd by Wildcats. Plus, when they get bloodrage (or bloodwrath, forgot what it was called :P), they become pretty much invinsable.
But really, don't you think badgers are a bit too OP? It just seems like the bad guys don't stand a chance when one badgers can kill like 50 vermin before they go down (if the b the even lasts that long): it's almost seems like an assured victory when a male badger is on the good side. I personally think that BJ should have made them a bit more realistic: I mean, in the sense that they aren't so darn powerful. Yes, they are the strongest creatures in Redwall: but they shouldn't be so strong that not one vermin can do a proper 1 1 without getting crushed in under a second.
Thoughts?
Well, they are powerful and awesome when they have the blood wrath. But they were mortal. We saw many badgers die throughout the series. So we know that though they may be a tad bit overly powered, they can still be killed one way or another.
It depends which theory you agree with: the size equality theory or the size difference theory. Many Redwall fans say that all of the animals are roughly the same size, with small differences, and others say that they are in the correct proportions for animals. If you go with the first theory, then yes. Badgers are way to overpowered. It is very unrealistic for them to take out major sections of an army, if not the whole army, just because they are angry. However, if you go with the second theory, then this aspect to badgers is more realistic. The question is, if this is true for badgers, then why do we not see other larger animals capable of doing the same thing, like foxes or wildcats? Of course, they probably would not have the Bloodwrath, but they would still be able to cause a lot of damage.
Quote from: Soren the Warrior on December 21, 2014, 12:38:11 PM
Well, they are powerful and awesome when they have the blood wrath. But they were mortal. We saw many badgers die throughout the series. So we know that though they may be a tad bit overly powered, they can still be killed one way or another.
Yes, but consider that they can take several dozen enimys down before they finally die...
Quote from: PluggFiretail on December 21, 2014, 05:09:15 PM
It depends which theory you agree with: the size equality theory or the size difference theory. Many Redwall fans say that all of the animals are roughly the same size, with small differences, and others say that they are in the correct proportions for animals. If you go with the first theory, then yes. Badgers are way to overpowered. It is very unrealistic for them to take out major sections of an army, if not the whole army, just because they are angry. However, if you go with the second theory, then this aspect to badgers is more realistic. The question is, if this is true for badgers, then why do we not see other larger animals capable of doing the same thing, like foxes or wildcats? Of course, they probably would not have the Bloodwrath, but they would still be able to cause a lot of damage.
That is actually an intresting theory: the first one seems like it can be logical (I mean, just look at the battle between Gulo and Tam: If Gulo was reallythe size that he is in real life, and Tam is also, then Tam shouldn't have had any chance); but the second one seems like it can also be plausible (for example, the horse in
Redwall seemed to have the same size proportions as to all the other creatures). But either way, I'm still sure that even if the second idea was true, that badgers could still be killed quicker.
Actually we never do find out what is the strongest creature in the series, a badger never fought a wolverine.
Quote from: Delthion on December 22, 2014, 03:43:27 AM
Actually we never do find out what is the strongest creature in the series, a badger never fought a wolverine.
But we still know that badgers are pretty darn OP.
Yes, but a duel between the two would be pretty cool...
Quote from: Delthion on December 22, 2014, 04:23:47 PM
Yes, but a duel between the two would be pretty cool...
Yes: I personally would like to see that...
Prepare yourselves for when that happens in my fanfic. . .
That's true about the wolverine, however badgers are normally trained warriors and wolverines are just brute force
Badgers are brute force as well. . . Take Sunflash and Gorath: They never really trained. They just tanked the battles and learned fighting through experience rather than training.
Though on average, yes badgers are trained.
Of course badgers are extremely powerful! They're like the cave trolls in The Lord of the Rings, but smart! I think that Mr. Jacques helped balance out the overpowered quality of badgers by making them very rare in the redwall world. It appears that only a couple of badgers exist at a single point in the Redwall timeline. So overpowered? Perhaps in some areas, but Mr. Jacques knew how to keep the balance, too :)
They are, but badgers are a pretty rare entity like Tammo said and the Bloodwrath is a bit of a disadvantage, as whoever has Bloodwrath cannot distinguish between friend and foe, and in the case of badgers they might just end up taking out a good chunk of their own army.
I think I'm all right with the badgers being that bit stronger than other animals; makes the species stand out even more.
Well, we always saw heroic, courageous, selfless, and hard-working badgers, I think having lazy, greedy, cowardly, and villainous badgers would flesh 'em up gurtly indeed.
It seems as though neither the size difference or size equality theory are correct; the proportions between creatures are weird and seem to lie somewhere in between the two theories. At the end of Taggerung Deyna, a huge otter, is holding Martin's sword. The sword is described as being only a little small. If the size difference theory were applied, the sword would be more accurately described as a toothpick rather than a large knife as mice are tiny compared to otters in real life. However, if size equality applied then it wouldn't make sense that Mhera, who was probably about average height for an otter, is later described as barely coming up to the height of Russano's waist when both were standing. So I think a better guess would be that size differences do apply but aren't as exaggerated as in real life.
Well, here's the size comparison (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/images/13/apr/redwall.jpg) used for the Redwall game, for what that's worth. I think it's pretty good for most of them, although I think badgers should probably be taller than they are.
As for your post: I think it is somewhere in between, but how much in between depends on the race. There's a pronounced bias towards badgers and wildcats that skew their size much greater in comparison to other species than it actually is. All the other ones seem to be on a pretty linear scale -- shrews, mice/voles, squirrels, then hares/otters for the good guys; rats, then weasels/stoats/ferrets, and finally foxes for the bad guys. Each "tier" of races is a little bigger than the last, but just a little more so -- not proportionate to real life. The 'bad' races are, on average, a little bigger than the good guys (a weasel, for instance is a close match for an otter).
Badgers, and thus wildcats, are both much larger than life. An adult badger isn't much larger than an otter, certainly not as much larger as an otter is to a mouse or squirrel. They're actually very similar in size, but Redwall portrays badgers as much bigger than everything else. Wildcats in real life are about the same as house cats (a little more muscular, given their lifestyle), but are portrayed as being a force capable of contesting a badger one-on-one. Finally, foxes are typically smaller than, or at the most as large as wildcats, which, while it is possible, very much understates their average size.
Overall, though, the last time I posted about this subject, I said that the only consistent rule was that badgers were bigger than everybody else. I still think that's pretty much the case. To figure out how it works, someone would have to go through each and every book and take notes on size whenever it's mentioned in the story.
As far as the personality traits thing goes, Mr. Jacques said something to the effect that the personality trait doesn't come from the race -- rather, the race comes from the personality trait. Epic leader-types that are 'larger than life' (in this case, literally) are often portrayed as badgers. With that in mind, having one be cowardly or lazy doesn't make sense.
Quote: Badgers, and thus wildcats, are both much larger than life. An adult badger isn't much larger than an otter, certainly not as much larger as an otter is to a mouse or squirrel. They're actually very similar in size, but Redwall portrays badgers as much bigger than everything else. Wildcats in real life are about the same as house cats (a little more muscular, given their lifestyle), but are portrayed as being a force capable of contesting a badger one-on-one. /quote
That all sounds about right, except for the above quote about wildcats. Where are they portrayed as being able to take on a badger alone? In High Rhulain, for example, they seem no more capable than any other vermin, and certainly not super-powerful.
There's only one wildcat in High Rhulain. All the others are feral cats, which are considerably weaker.
As far as High Rhulain goes, remember that most of those were feral cats, not wildcats. ;) Riggu Felis makes this distinction himself. In real life, it isn't as big of a deal as he makes it out to be, but in the story there is apparently supposed to be a difference. Also, their primary enemies are otters, who were on the bigger end of the spectrum -- I don't think we see them get whupped up on by a bunch of mice or shrews.
Ungatt Trunn, Lord Greeneyes' older brother, fights Lord Brocktree at the end of the book of that name. While Lord Brocktree is portrayed as being definitely stronger than Ungatt Trunn by the end of it, there's enough of a build-up to the fight and enough of a tussle that it's clear they're expected to be a good match. In Salamandastron both Ferahgo and Klitch fight Lord Urthstripe and start to lose before their archers bail them out, so it's evident that an individual wildcat is definitely stronger and more dangerous than weasels/other 'lesser' races.
Okay, thanks! That clears things up a bit.
Also, to answer the original question: No, I don't think badgers are too overpowered. I see them as a sort of equalizer. Vermin usually have relatively large armies when compared to the woodlanders, so to even things out woodlanders have badgers.
But when you think about it, badgers are no more good and noble than any of the Redwallers. If some were made bad then it would make them worse than all of the other goodbeasts in the Redwall series.
Possibly.
If you read the books carefully, all badgers have a weakness, usually during the bloodwrath. Thus, that weakness makes them to underpowered, hence the Bloodwrath usually saves them from this (not in the case of Gorath, though). Bloodwrath is like the avatar state (if you've seen the show), it is more of a defense mechanism designed to, well, help the Badger... soldier his way though anything. Anything! Hence, the real answer is... it depends.
I don't really think badgers are over-powered. Though I still kinda wonder if a wolverine would kill a badger or not...
Depends on the wolverine, depends on the badger.
Bork for example would get his tail handed to him by any badger (even hotheaded Urthblaze and definitely ones like Umber and Rockfur- don't even get me started on the canon Badgerlord's)
But somebeast like, say , Baro, while not guaranteed to beat all of them could probably take down a younger badger or the inexperienced Urthblaze. So it depends.
Quote from: The Grey Coincidence on May 04, 2019, 04:27:56 AM
Depends on the wolverine, depends on the badger.
Bork for example would get his tail handed to him by any badger (even hotheaded Urthblaze and definitely ones like Umber and Rockfur- don't even get me started on the canon Badgerlord's)
But somebeast like, say , Baro, while not guaranteed to beat all of them could probably take down a younger badger or the inexperienced Urthblaze. So it depends.
Slightly off topic but do you think you'll have a badger vs wolverine fight in your fanfic?
Nah... but the sequel.
Basically when Bork get's older...
Well... I have a planned drabble of Umber and Bork...
But yeah. *If* he grows older. Haven't decided yet.
Quote from: Sebias of Redwall on May 04, 2019, 04:29:56 AM
Slightly off topic but do you think you'll have a badger vs wolverine fight in your fanfic?
We don't do that in my fics.
Sure, you have Taggerungs wrecking entire armies, battles in the centre of the mind, and weapons that can enhance seer powers tenfold, but a badger fighting a wolverine? *shakes head fervently* Nope!
Really missing out Math.
Quote from: MathLuk on May 04, 2019, 04:43:14 AM
We don't do that in my fics.
Sure, you have Taggerungs wrecking entire armies, battles in the centre of the mind, and weapons that can enhance seer powers tenfold, but a badger fighting a wolverine? *shakes head fervently* Nope!
Hmm...I'm trying to figure out if you're sarcastic... But even if you're not, your description of your battles sound cool. :D
Well, we've had smaller vermin kill badgers. For example, I'm pretty sure Ferahgo killed Urthhound single handedly in Salamandastron
Quote from: Jack the Quick on May 16, 2019, 06:54:35 PM
Well, we've had smaller vermin kill badgers. For example, I'm pretty sure Ferahgo killed Urthhound single handedly in Salamandastron
That's true. He even killed his wife as well though I think it said it was by trickery, but still impressive.
Yes, but I think Badger Vs Wolverine is a match that depends on the specific badger... have I said this before? Strange sense of deja-vu.
Quote from: The Grey Coincidence on May 16, 2019, 07:07:45 PM
Yes, but I think Badger Vs Wolverine is a match that depends on the specific badger... have I said this before? Strange sense of deja-vu.
Brian Jacques should have had a duel between a Badger and a Wolverine. That would have epic fight.
Brain didn't do 'epic fights' for the sake of epic fights to be honest. I think that, if a badger had a more prominent role in a book with wolverines then yes, something like that was inevitable. But when you think about it- when have his fights been made *just* for sheer epicness?
Quote from: The Grey Coincidence on May 16, 2019, 07:12:07 PM
Brain didn't do 'epic fights' for the sake of epic fights to be honest. I think that, if a badger had a more prominent role in a book with wolverines then yes, something like that was inevitable. But when you think about it- when have his fights been made *just* for sheer epicness?
Hmm...Good point.
Indeed. Also, poison should probably be used whenever fighting badger.
Quote from: The Grey Coincidence on May 16, 2019, 07:17:47 PM
Indeed. Also, poison should probably be used whenever fighting badger.
That's probably what Feragho used to kill Urthhound.
I haven't read the book sooo...
Quote from: The Grey Coincidence on May 16, 2019, 07:20:18 PM
I haven't read the book sooo...
Whoops! Yikes! I should use Spoiler Tags...
*Shrugs* Although their large size means you'd need more than a little poison to do a badger in...
Quote from: The Grey Coincidence on May 16, 2019, 07:22:41 PM
*Shrugs* Although their large size means you'd need more than a little poison to do a badger in...
And some badgers are resistant to venom.
Poison and venom are different things...
Quote from: The Grey Coincidence on May 16, 2019, 07:25:21 PM
Poison and venom are different things...
I know, but if someone was to try to kill them with a blade covered in venom or something...
Hmmm...
I cant say more on this subject. But that person would likely wind up in a mutual kill spot- because the badger won't die instantly, and it sure as chocolate will take whoever stabbed it down first.
Quote from: Sebias of Redwall on May 16, 2019, 07:24:42 PM
Quote from: The Grey Coincidence on May 16, 2019, 07:22:41 PM
*Shrugs* Although their large size means you'd need more than a little poison to do a badger in...
And some badgers are resistant to venom.
I don't recall this in the series?
Quote from: The Grey Coincidence on May 16, 2019, 07:31:40 PM
Hmmm...
I cant say more on this subject. But that person would likely wind up in a mutual kill spot- because the badger won't die instantly, and it sure as chocolate will take whoever stabbed it down first.
Depends on the side effects and how much of what is used.
It depends on the type of toxin used, that is correct. And I don't know if it happened in the series I'm just saying what *could* happen *if* etc etc
They never mentioned it in the series I don't think. I just looked it up.
Quote from: Cornflower MM on May 16, 2019, 07:34:31 PM
Quote from: Sebias of Redwall on May 16, 2019, 07:24:42 PM
Quote from: The Grey Coincidence on May 16, 2019, 07:22:41 PM
*Shrugs* Although their large size means you'd need more than a little poison to do a badger in...
And some badgers are resistant to venom.
I don't recall this in the series?
Yeah, I don't either, the only badger I recall having poison resistance in redwall is from a Redwall fabric.
Also, we truly don't know how overpowered a badger is because not only have we not seen a Badger vs a Wolverine, we've also not seen a Wolf throw down.
Sunflash is bitten multiple times by a pair of adders, but still manages to kill them both, and survives their poisoning afterwards.
Quote from: LT Sandpaw on December 22, 2014, 08:26:57 PM
That's true about the wolverine, however badgers are normally trained warriors and wolverines are just brute force
You have to remember wolverines have only been in one book and we mostly only know about one
Quote from: Sanddunes on July 30, 2019, 08:09:35 AM
Quote from: LT Sandpaw on December 22, 2014, 08:26:57 PM
That's true about the wolverine, however badgers are normally trained warriors and wolverines are just brute force
You have to remember wolverines have only been in one book and we mostly only know about one
And from what we hear about the other ones, they seemed slightly more civilized than Gulo
Quote from: Tungro on July 30, 2019, 03:31:17 PM
Quote from: Sanddunes on July 30, 2019, 08:09:35 AM
Quote from: LT Sandpaw on December 22, 2014, 08:26:57 PM
That's true about the wolverine, however badgers are normally trained warriors and wolverines are just brute force
You have to remember wolverines have only been in one book and we mostly only know about one
And from what we hear about the other ones, they seemed slightly more civilized than Gulo
True. Because if I remember right, the ermine and foxes had said that things hadn't been quite as bad under Gulo's father's rule.
And they said Gulo was wilder than any other one
Also true.
That was probably one of the reason why he was called "The Savage" because he was more ruthless and crazy then your average wolverine.
Quote from: Jetthebinturong on July 29, 2019, 03:50:19 PM
Sunflash is bitten multiple times by a pair of adders, but still manages to kill them both, and survives their poisoning afterwards.
Its not unusual. Generally speaking the bigger an animal is the more venom it takes to kill it. An elephant could survive higher venomous doses than a human for example.
Quote from: Tungro on July 30, 2019, 03:31:17 PM
Quote from: Sanddunes on July 30, 2019, 08:09:35 AM
Quote from: LT Sandpaw on December 22, 2014, 08:26:57 PM
That's true about the wolverine, however badgers are normally trained warriors and wolverines are just brute force
You have to remember wolverines have only been in one book and we mostly only know about one
And from what we hear about the other ones, they seemed slightly more civilized than Gulo
Well we really only see one family of wolverines- a father and his 2 sons. The father Dramz was a pretty good father as far as vermin standards go in that he wanted his sons to share power after his death- hence why Gulo killed him. Gulo wasn't much more "savage", rather unlike the other two he was insane. There is an example in the book of Gulo talking to bushes and his dead brother before falling asleep. With Gulo's horde which was his father's horde before, it seemed to be an established practice of theirs to eat their enemies or engage in "cannibalism". You could say it was a cultural thing for that group. Even Askor told those 2 travellers who found him pinned under an oak, the hedgehog and mole I think they where, that when he dies they should eat him before he goes bad. And the other white vermin horde-beasts regularly engaged in "cannibalism".
Its interesting to note here there is an example of a single vermin singlehandedly killing a full grown badger. In the Bellmaker Mellus is killed by the searat captain Slipp. She was trying to protect the dibbuns from him when he stabbed her in the heart and she died. A lucky blow or by catching a badger by surprise they can be killed. Another example is Rawnblade- Gabool stabbed him in the chest with a knife but he survived thanks to his armour. he was also lured into the scorpion pit but Martin's spirit saved him. Their rage it seems can be a liability. Wolverines when they are in combat or in a precarious situation they tend to stay pretty levelheaded (at least what we see from Gulo and Askor). Gulo was far from careless in his fight with Tam- he didn't blindly charge at him like a bloodwrath badger would against their foes despite the fact that he was insane at that point. And Askor remained calm even though he knew he was dying when pinned by the tree with a broken back.
Badgers are way too op.
Did you not read what Grond had to say? He made a good point
I suddenly want to write a one-shot about Askor.
You should!
Askor's great.
Badgers are the right kind of overpowered, in my opinion. But then again, I also tend to like isekai's, so I guess that just makes me a scrub. -_-
Quote from: Kade Rivok on October 21, 2019, 10:06:57 PM
Badgers are the right kind of overpowered, in my opinion.
Agreed. I feel like every fantasy series needs to have at least one branch of extra mighty warriors.
Quote from: Sebias of Redwall on October 22, 2019, 08:11:58 PM
Quote from: Kade Rivok on October 21, 2019, 10:06:57 PM
Badgers are the right kind of overpowered, in my opinion.
Agreed. I feel like every fantasy series needs to have at least one branch of extra mighty warriors.
I do to at times but I would also like an opponent to match them
Wolverine vs. Badger. That's what we need.
Quote from: Kade Rivok on October 21, 2019, 10:06:57 PM
But then again, I also tend to like isekai's, so I guess that just makes me a scrub. -_-
*Hacks.* *Spits.* DISGUSTEN!
I agree ;D
Arrrgg! Everyone is spoiling everything! Mellus dies?! *looks around for something to shred with claws* I must destroy something! *can't find anything suitable to destroy so satisfies self by growling at Grond* And my local library doesn't have the Bellmaker so I can't even read the jolly book! *sighs* Oh well.
Quote from: Ebantu the Kararehe on November 23, 2019, 07:55:24 AM
Arrrgg! Everyone is spoiling everything! Mellus dies?! *looks around for something to shred with claws* I must destroy something! *can't find anything suitable to destroy so satisfies self by growling at Grond* And my local library doesn't have the Bellmaker so I can't even read the jolly book! *sighs* Oh well.
Doesn't it say on your description: I haven't read all the Redwall books, but I won't kill you if you give me a spoiler. I'll just go and read the book you spoiled.
Spoiler
Shhh, nobody tell them about the aliens
Spoiler
The ones from Betelgeuse Five?
I never said I was going to kill someone. I said I was going to destroy something. There's a difference. Also, I just realised it does say 'Spoilers' in the thingy at the top of the page. So it's my fault for reading it.
Aliens? Yeah, right. :P
Spoiler
Ok good, she doesn't believe me. She's gonna be REAL surprised later.
Spoiler
Btw, your friend Ford Prefect is an alien from Betelgeuse Five.
Real mature guys, real mature. *rolls eyes, trying not to smile*
Maybe, but why not leave that up to B.J.?
I think it's more an interesting subject to argue over, rather than a complaint against the overlord's (author's) decisions.
The simple fact is that the three biggest, and thus most powerful, species In redwall--at least going by their book descriptions, because Sea Otters are bloody enormous, much bigger then badgers--the Badger, the Wolverine and the Wolf have never fought, nor do we even know much about the latter two; so, which is the strongest is a bit up in the air.
Well, yall are using real-world comparisons for size, don't forget that foxes are the same height as mice.