Poll
Question:
What kind of character was Verdauga?
Option 1: Good
votes: 0
Option 2: Bad
votes: 0
Option 3: Gray
votes: 3
I've always been fascinated by Verdauga. He strikes me as a stately, noble figure. He seemed to have a decency about him that no other vermin leader had. What do you think might have shaped his character this way?
Well, I always liked him personally. To me his father is the most important Redwall character, but his connections to Redwall in the later books is pretty great. I always saw him as one of the reasons Gingivier (dunno how to spell it) turned out the way he did. He never was too harsh, but still firm.
What it seemed like to me is that he grew soft in his old age, to the point where near the end of his lifetime you could call him "good" but he did wage war on the woodlanders at one point
Wanting to conquer land/waging war on a tribe does not automatically make one evil, you'd have to know the backstory behind it (and we don't, not really).
I think it was implied in Lord Brocktree that Verdauga as the youngest child became a conqueror to prove himself and impress his father.
That would make an amazing story tbh. The young, wide-eyed Verdauga becomes a general and eagerly leads a war against the woodlanders of Mossflower. But when he manages to conquer them, a few years later, he realises that being a conqueror or a leader is not all its cracked up to be.
Quote from: Jet the binturong on February 02, 2017, 04:27:34 PM
I think it was implied in Lord Brocktree that Verdauga as the youngest child became a conqueror to prove himself and impress his father.
That would make an amazing story tbh. The young, wide-eyed Verdauga becomes a general and eagerly leads a war against the woodlanders of Mossflower. But when he manages to conquer them, a few years later, he realises that being a conqueror or a leader is not all its cracked up to be.
So then he gets a lot of poison in stock and waits for his daughter to pull the trigger.
Verduga is interesting. He recognized Martin's spirit, and it seemed he actually admired it, and warned his daughter of him. He obviously cared enough for his children to try to help them and teach them. . .
"Gingivere! Stand up to your sister!"
I'm not sure if he took Kotir by force, since, what I understand, it was abandoned before he got there, and his main focus of attack was on the woodlanders who obviously didn't want him to rule. When he was vicotrious, he was content to let them live on the land and grow crops, as long as they gave a percentage to Kotir, much like most kings did in Europe. It was really only after he got sick and Tsarmina started having more authority that the woodlanders really decided to turn their worsening situation around and do something.
To call Verdauga 'good' is to really stretch the sense of the word. While he is A Lighter Shade of Black (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ALighterShadeOfBlack) than other villains, what mainly sets him apart is how he doesn't kill woodlanders on sight, and is among the tiny group of characters, vermin or otherwise, who keeps prisoners. That being said, he did build an army, built it out of the typical 'vicious idiots' that make up 95% of the vermin population, and used it to subjugate woodlanders. As we see in the beginning of Mossflower, he used his army to take what he needed by force, and left the woodlanders to starve. Why else would Gonff steal from the Kotir larders and bring food to the Stickles? Luke's Tribe was up on the northern shores because they had to flee when Verdauga took over, otherwise they wouldn't be able to survive. The population of Mossflower dwindled drastically before Mossflower began, because everyone had the choice, like Luke, of staying and dying, or running away.
While Verdauga is definitely smarter and less ruthless than other vermin leaders, he is not good. Good characters do not take what they need by force and leave their subjects to starve.
Quote from: Groddil on February 06, 2017, 12:25:07 AMLuke's Tribe was up on the northern shores because they had to flee when Verdauga took over, otherwise they wouldn't be able to survive. The population of Mossflower dwindled drastically before Mossflower began, because everyone had the choice, like Luke, of staying and dying, or running away.
When was that said?
Quote from: Inquisitor on February 06, 2017, 02:53:40 AM
Quote from: Groddil on February 06, 2017, 12:25:07 AMLuke's Tribe was up on the northern shores because they had to flee when Verdauga took over, otherwise they wouldn't be able to survive. The population of Mossflower dwindled drastically before Mossflower began, because everyone had the choice, like Luke, of staying and dying, or running away.
When was that said?
During a song in Legend of Luke I think, it was about the church that's there. They mentioned afterword that Martin Elder lived there, and then had to leave once Verdauga invaded.
I labeled Greeneyes as bad because he's conqueror who defeated the woodlanders in battle, taking the region and destroying any resistance they was attempted. I wont say he was evil, but he certainly wasn't good. In what little we see of him we can gleam that he was a good general, and a great leader, but that doesn't change the fact that he was still a warlord.
Quote from: LT Sandpaw on February 06, 2017, 03:02:48 AM
Quote from: Inquisitor on February 06, 2017, 02:53:40 AM
Quote from: Groddil on February 06, 2017, 12:25:07 AMLuke's Tribe was up on the northern shores because they had to flee when Verdauga took over, otherwise they wouldn't be able to survive. The population of Mossflower dwindled drastically before Mossflower began, because everyone had the choice, like Luke, of staying and dying, or running away.
When was that said?
During a song in Legend of Luke I think, it was about the church that's there. They mentioned afterword that Martin Elder lived there, and then had to leave once Verdauga invaded.
I labeled Greeneyes as bad because he's conqueror who defeated the woodlanders in battle, taking the region and destroying any resistance they was attempted. I wont say he was evil, but he certainly wasn't good. In what little we see of him we can gleam that he was a good general, and a great leader, but that doesn't change the fact that he was still a warlord.
Mmm. I voted for gray, but he is definitely the darker end of that spectrum. I wouldn't call him complete evil like some other warlords, but like Sand said, he was still a warlord.
ultimately, i don't think we know enough about Verdauga to make an informed decision on where he is on the spectrum of evil.
Definitely.
Like Jet said, this would make an epic story.
I don't think Verdauga was mentioned in that song. If he was, I never registered the connection.
Groddil: Actually, Verdauga took half of their farmed materials in exchange for letting them live on his land. It was Tsarmina who starved them.
My understanding was that the conditions under Verdauga's reign were less than ideal, in that woodlanders were not free, but not far from a standard feudal society (much better, in fact). It is reasonable to assume that Verdauga honored the feudal contract, and used his army and castle to protect the woodlanders when necessary, if only to preserve his domain. It wasn't until Verdauga sickened under the loving care of his daughter that conditions became unbearable, and the woodlanders were exploited to the level of medieval serfs and therefore rebelled. I would call him just, fair, and stern, but neither evil nor good. In short, he resembles a feudal lord of ancient mold- if not more noble than they often were.
Yeah, that sounds pretty accurate, though a lot is left up to speculation.
Pretty much repeating what some others have said, that I believe he was grey, but on the darker side of that. He gradually softened in old age but he was still somewhat the character he had been, in the way he conquered and, at least at first, treated those 'under' him. I do also take into account how warlords behaved in ye olde days.
I would say Grey because if you study history during the medieval times he wasn't much different then the warlords in our world in fact he maybe better
Verdauga was certainly not evil and even seemed like he cared about his children as he raised Gingivire, who turned out good.
Quote from: Sanddunes on September 03, 2017, 07:56:41 AM
I would say Grey because if you study history during the medieval times he wasn't much different then the warlords in our world in fact he maybe better
True. However, in our world servitude was a common thing, what with classes of lords and ladies and peasants, which doesn't seem to be the norm in the Redwall universe.
And you know, the woodlanders retaliated against him, so what creatures would make more sense to put into his service, the ones who fought against him or his own soldiers?
Quote from: The Skarzs on September 04, 2017, 12:54:55 AM
Quote from: Sanddunes on September 03, 2017, 07:56:41 AM
I would say Grey because if you study history during the medieval times he wasn't much different then the warlords in our world in fact he maybe better
True. However, in our world servitude was a common thing, what with classes of lords and ladies and peasants, which doesn't seem to be the norm in the Redwall universe.
And you know, the woodlanders retaliated against him, so what creatures would make more sense to put into his service, the ones who fought against him or his own soldiers?
Even in our world most people generally don't like being ruled by foreigners now I'm not sure but I think the deal Verdauga made with the woodlanders didn't happen until after he defeated them the first time
It still doesn't prove him evil.
Quote from: Ashleg on September 04, 2017, 09:09:12 PM
It still doesn't prove him evil.
I never said he was evil (unless you are not talking to me than sorry)
I'm talking with Skarzs.
I agree with you.
I'm not saying he was evil either. Just severe.
Mm.
Not really.