Redwall Abbey

I've been re-reading my Redwall collection for the first time in ages. I think High Rhulain is the most recent book that I own, and I've re-read everything apart from Redwall and Martin the Warrior, because I can't find my copies  :'(. My old favourites, like Mossflower and The Long Patrol, lived up to my memories of them, but I was quite disappointed by some of the newer books. High Rhulain, for instance, is almost definitely my least favourite of the books that I have read, and I wasn't very impressed by Loamhedge or Rakkety Tam either. Taggerung and Triss were okay, but I think that the series went downhill slightly after Lord Brocktree. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed them, but I don't think they're anywhere near as good as the earlier books in the Redwall collection. Does anyone else feel like this? I think part of the problem is that the books stop overlapping, so there is no more recurrence of familiar characters, which I find quite sad really.

I have to say that I personally feel the same way in some cases, except that my "cutoff" point is Legend of Luke, not Lord Brocktree.

In particular, I think the first three books (Redwall, Mossflower, and Mattimeo) are the best, although I still like the rest of them, especially The Long Patrol and Outcast of Redwall.

Mariel of Redwall and Pearls of Lutra both have good villains, but in my opinion, the heroes are maybe not quite as interesting as they could be in some cases, and they win out over the villains too easily for me to rank them near the top.

Martin the Warrior, I can't say where I'd rank it since it's been so long since I've read it. I suppose I ought to reread it since it's such a critical book in the saga; besides, I've already read Mossflower and Legend of Luke, so it couldn't hurt to finish rereading all of the 'Martin trilogy'. ;)

I think the earlier books are "better" in most cases because at the time, there still was no formula or overlap of situations, villains, etc.  Once you get beyond Outcast of Redwall, you get into a ton of repetition simply because unless you introduce something new, you're bound to revisit old topics, old plotlines, and stuff like that.  The Redwall series is no exception to this, and its largely the reason that I stopped reading after Loamhedge.

It seems like after Lord Brocktree Brian decided to restart the series, with the villains getting gradually more and more threatening. The farther you read in the series, the better the books will get. (after High Rhulain at least)
Taggerung: the villains were NOT a threat to Redwall (Ruggan Bor doesn't count since he only arrived at the end) also Vallug IMO is the biggest villain in the story
Triss: the villains (Kurda and Plugg) were a much greater threat to Redwall and the characters but...still completely pathetic compared to the likes of Cluny.
In Loamhedge, Raga Bol managed to besiege Redwall but was still a minor threat (he only had a crew of about 50 plus there was Lonna Bowstripe)
Rakkety Tam revived the series IMO by getting an actually threatening villain. A wolverine is a huge threat obviously but Gulo's army only numbered 100 and he wasn't the most intelligent main villain, and very impulsive (killing all those crows just for minor injuries srsly?)
In High Rhulain, Riggu Felis wasn't a threat to Redwall, however he was a pretty good strategist and a cat (altho he was fighting OTTERS) plus he had an ARMY of cats (the only one in the series) and it was a large army.
In Eulalia!, Vizka started out with a relatively large crew, and then his army got massive when the Brownrat horde fed into it but for the most part he wasn't TOO threatening (and the battle of the plateau wasn't as...epic...as the battle of the ridge in Long Patrol).
Doomwyte had Korvus Skurr who could fly and command an entire army of birds with Baliss at his employ, however he was severely weakened by the accident with Baliss, Talug and Corksnout. At the end, he still managed to be a threat to the main characters, with the huge bird army.
The Sable Quean had the sables Vilaya and Zwilt (the book implies that sables are an elite/nearly invincible vermin species. Vilaya had a pretty good plan to conquer Redwall and Zwilt was a good fighter plus they had a pretty large horde which definitely made them a threat.
Finally the Rogue Crew (which I'm still reading) has Razzid Wearat who is stated to be the biggest threat Redwall ever faced. Although I'd say that's a bit of an exaggeration (altho I might be wrong considering I haven't finished the book yet) he is certainly a huge threat to the abbey. He's a savage fighter like Gulo but he is also intelligent, plus he has a ship with wheels and a large crew.

Also to people who stopped after Loamhedge: Continue reading, Rakkety Tam is (IMO) much better.
Loamhedge is my least favorite because the villain wasn't threatening as well as because the 2 main plots are COMPLETELY unrelated and the titular plot is pointless. The later books get MUCH better than that.

I thought with Triss, the series went a bit downhill (I still liked them, but the earlier ones were better). But I really liked the Sable Quean and the Rogue Crew, so I think it had a strong finish

I agree with most of what's being said. "Loamhedge" was a low point, but from "Eulalia!" onwards it looked like Brian was taking chances and shaking things up a bit. Didn't always work, but the changes were welcome, and I found "The Rogue Crew" to be the best book in years for it's surprisingly brutal scenes of death (plus Razzid being quite scary at times).

I read the books in a random order, so I found some of my earlier choices to be quite good and later ones to be too formulaic (didn't care much for Salamandastron despite the emotional impact of some of its scenes, it was the 15th book I read). A couple of them I can chalk up to not having read in published order ("The Bellmaker" doesn't introduce its characters because it assumes you read "Mariel of Redwall" beforehand, so I didn't know what was going on and decided I hated it. I always felt guilty about that). It's true that returning characters can help with nostalgia and make the sequels better, but most of the books in the series are not sequels in the returning-characters sense (long-living badgermums excepted). I can't vouch for the earlier books being better from my own reviews (what books I hated were pretty evenly distributed in early, middle, and late), but it'd make sense as there'd still be fresh ideas and it's the common opinion that the earlier books were the best.

But what I can vouch for is that some of the late books are good as well, and some of the middle books have redeeming qualities. I always said to myself that every Redwall book has at least one good thing in it (for "Loamhedge", that would be Horty and Martha), and I stand by that.

Speakin' o' the earlier bookz, I just finizhed Redwall lazt night. Finally ah can ztart readin' The Rogue Crew!

The earlier books are certainly my favourites. I agree with James, my "cutoff" point is Legend of Luke. Anything after then is "new" in my mind. It might have something to do with the fact that as I got older after Lord Brocktree came out I had to study a lot more, so I had less time for reading. Whatever the reason, even when I re-read the books today I still enjoy the earlier ones more.

One exception is Rakkety Tam. It's my favourite out of the latter half of the series. I'm not sure what it is about it, but I thought a bit of the "old magic" had been recaptured in that book.

That is not to say that I didn't enjoy the later books! They just have a different feeling to me.

For me Rakkety Tam was the book that "revived" the series.

Well now, I guess I'm rather different. I like the first three books, the next few I didn't really like that much, then came Pearls or Lutra which I love, finally followed by all the other books which I like.

I don't really have a definable structure of which ones I like and don't like. :-\

I think the earlier books are good, but some of the later ones are good too. Like the legend of Luke, high Rhulain, and the long patrol

I think that Redwall was the oddest book. Loamhedge was confusing, sometimes not interesting, but had many redeeming qualities. The Pearls of Lutra was wonderful except for the end as the main character doesn't kill the villain.

My personal favorites are the Long Patrol, High Rhulain and Rakkety Tam.  I personally didn't care for Doomwyte, Sabel Quean, and Eulalia! nearly as much as the earlier books.  I just finished reading the Rogue Crew today, and while it doesn't quite have the magic of the first few, it certainly outshines its three predecessors by a long shot.  :)

I read them in a weird order, starting chronologically from the Matthias era and skipping back and forth from Pre-Matthias to After Martin II.  I found all the books quite entertaining.  I found the first four books published (Redwall, Mossflower, Mattimeo, Mariel of Redwall) to be among my favorites.  I then found the next four published were also good, but I didn't find Salamandastrom and Martin the Warrior as memorable.  The following four, Pearls of Lutra, The Long Patrol, Marlfox, and Legend of Luke were all sound, with Legend of Luke and The Long Patrol being my favorites.  Lord Brocktree and the Taggerung were sound, but after that the series in my opinion, took a dip.  When I read Triss, I really hated Kurda and her brother for just being so pathetic and I found Triss rather lacking in character.  Loamhedge was good, but I also found the villain lacking and Lonna Bowstripe a rather bland hero.  Rakkety Tam was awesome, I reread it constantly.  Then, came the letdown of High Rhulain.  I found Tiria's journey totally flat without much challenges to her.  It was too Cinderella like.  I shed a tear after Brinty died and for Cuthbert, but besides the half of the book that was interesting, I found the other half slightly boring.  Eullalia's hero Gorath was too reminiscent of Lonna Bowstripe and I was quite disappointed with the plateau battle.  I found the following books, Doomwyte and The Sable Quean to be very good books, with The Sable Quean having one of my favorite villains.  So, while I did find the earlier books to be better in general, I did enjoy some of the more recent books.  I still have yet to read The Rogue Crew.

There are always books we like more, and books we like less. I must say, Triss was a little dull. But I still enjoyed it very much. The older books were great. But I love the newer ones too. Loamhegde in my opinion was wonderful. High Rhulain was good too, but not as exciting. Sable Queen, Doomwyte, and Rogue Crew, I loved! They are the most recent, but I think I like them better then Salamandostron, and Outcast of Redwall. You must remember that we all have different taste, so we must not judge because someone likes the newer ones. As I have stated before, Lord Brocktree is my favorite. I don't care if the older ones are better or not, I still love Brocktree.

I genuinely enjoyed all of the books, but I did notice a change - or something - that seemed to occur with Triss onward. When I was younger, I preferred the older books; now I'm old, I prefer the later books. Totally know where the OP's coming from, though!

Thinking over it, I think I understand a little better why I don't like Lord Brocktree enough to make it (and not Legend of Luke) the last "original" book. Don't read if you don't want to see some criticism of it (from my perspective).

Firstly, in Mossflower, Salamandastron is almost a mythical place. Sure, we see it become a much more habited and "down to earth" place in Outcast of Redwall and Salamandastron, but both of these take place quite a while after Mossflower and the change is understandable, something that might've come from a combination of the last surviving Long Patrol hares working to keep the mountain alive (by bringing in more hares to make up for the lack of their Badger Lord, who most of the mystical aspect comes from in the first place), and Sunflash's reign over the mountain.

Boar's Long Patrol is the smallest one we ever see in the series, consisting of exactly ten hares, all of which are known by name, and two of which are too young to fight. Because of this numeric disadvantage, the great Badger Lord influenced the seascum through fear and a kind of trickery, instead of just brute force. When you hear about the chamber Boar built, and the dragon head, and the echoing cave, and everything else, one would logically assume that previous Badger Lords like Boar ruled in much a similar way, or by using other, similar small-scale methods to enforce their rule.

Lord Brocktree, though, turns all of these reasonable assumptions upside down by showing us that actually Boar's Long Patrol was a freak exception to the rule, as every other Long Patrol in history -- from his grandfather to his father to his grandson and all the way down -- have been run about the same. The Long Patrol as a large, active military force has apparently usually been the case, to the extent that forty hares (several times Boar's force) was considered a weak patrol at the end of Stonepaw's time.

There's no reason I can see why the Long Patrol, a large, active force at the beginning of Lord Brocktree's reign, should be down to less than a skeleton crew all the way through his son, Lord Boar's reign (unless of course Boar was so bloodthirsty that he wanted to reserve all of the vermin-killing solely to himself, and so sent all the spare hares away ;)).

So the entire thing of having a massive Long Patrol, and Salamandastron a regularly-visited part of the world, before Boar's time strikes me as an anachronism -- from reading Mossflower, Salamandastron strikes me as being an almost magical place. Outcast of Redwall and Salamandastron made it more approachable, but I'd expect, from going back to Lord Brocktree's time, that it would be just as remote and removed a place as it was in Mossflower. Instead, when the book came out, it was revealed that it was basically the same bustling community we see during Sunflash's time, and that seems a bit backwards to me.

Secondly, Dotti Dillworthy. In human terms, she's basically like a seventeen-year-old girl, maybe a bit older. Having her achieve all the things she does, and work up her way to easily become General, doesn't seem quite realistic to me; even Tammo was only a Captain years after the events of The Long Patrol, and I don't think he can realistically be much less qualified than her.

Specifically, beating Bucko Bigbones seems kind of a stretch to me. It's been a while since I heard the story, so my memory might be a bit foggy on this, but it strikes me as like the aforementioned teenage girl fighting a champion heavyweight boxer. I don't care how good the girl is, and how much the boxer's been slacking off in his training; realistically she isn't going to win.

Finally, although I guess this is more personal taste, the "Blue Hordes" were kind of overkill. It's easily the largest horde in Redwall-series history; larger than Cluny the Scourge's, larger than Damug Warfang's, even larger than the previously largest horde, Ferahgo the Assassin's 4,000 Corpsemakers. Compared to the size of Verdauga Greeneyes' contemporary Thousand Eyes Army (which was several hundred vermin, at most), it seems a bit much.

What's worse than that, though, is that after making them be the biggest horde ever, the plot doesn't do much with it. They beat an anemic Long Patrol (but the other hordes I mentioned could've probably done that too), and then proceeded to slowly starve to death, until Lord Brocktree's army came along to finish them off.

Ungatt Trunn may think himself to be a great warlord and conqueror, but he's actually not particularly competent; from the little I've seen and heard about him in Mossflower and Legend of Luke, Verdauga could've done ten times as much with a tenth of Trunn's force... which is disappointing. Ungatt Trunn, as the first villainous, adult, healthy wildcat male in the series, is the best chance the plot ever had to show us what Verdauga might've been like in his younger days, but it clearly doesn't do that.

So that's probably why I feel how I do about Lord Brocktree -- I'm not saying it's an awful book, just that it wasn't what I expected from a book about that time period, and it's kind of disappointing to me.

They are all absolutely epic, but most of the early books are my favourites (Redwall, Mossflower, Mattmieo etc). However, Rakkety Tam also rank very high, which are a lot later. I'm almost finished the Rogue Crew, and that is an epic book!

I think the older books are the VERY best. I love all the books (I'm working on Triss) but my absolute favorites would have to be Redwall, Mattimeo, and Mossflower.

I liked the blue hordes for their size, but their defeat was probably the biggest disappointment in the series. I expected a HUGE battle not...

Yeah. Big blow to cats every where. :'(

Quote from: daskar666 on August 01, 2011, 06:26:39 PM
I liked the blue hordes for their size, but their defeat was probably the biggest disappointment in the series. I expected a HUGE battle not...

I have to agree with that.  Though I think it would have been pretty hard for Brocktree's army to go head to head with Ungatt and win...

Yes Jacques' earlier work is better in my opinion, however
The Sable Quean is one of my favorites.

I'm not quite sure. I think that Mr. Jacques actually got a clearer idea of where the storyline was going after the first three books. Like how in Redwall, there were horses and pigs and a beaver. Those animals just seemed kind of out of place. But in the later books, I loved High Rhulain, Rakkety Tam, and Taggerung. Mossflower if my favorite out of the first three books though.

I thought the Taggerung's "war" scene was disappointing...

James, I wish you were around in the Terrouge days! Your analyses are very thorough and interesting to read.

For me the "cutoff" point is between Taggerung and Triss. I loved Taggerung because of the concept of the Juska tribe and the plot was interesting to me (a goodbeast being raised by vermin). Most importantly, it was the last book (that I read) that had characters I already knew (Cregga was still alive). Every book after that took place seasons and seasons after the previous book, and it just felt like I was reading random fanfiction, not a book series. It made me feel like he wasn't familiar enough with his own series to include the same characters in multiple books, and instead had to make up completely new characters each time.

I haven't read the more recent books though. I don't even think I finished reading Rakkety Tam. :(

Quote from: sabretache5611 on August 01, 2011, 08:51:29 PM

Quote from: daskar666 on August 01, 2011, 06:26:39 PM
I liked the blue hordes for their size, but their defeat was probably the biggest disappointment in the series. I expected a HUGE battle not...

I have to agree with that.  Though I think it would have been pretty hard for Brocktree's army to go head to head with Ungatt and win...

Helm's deep much?

Quote from: DanielofRedwall on August 02, 2011, 09:17:12 AM
I thought the Taggerung's "war" scene was disappointing...

Yay! I'm not the only one!! ;D It would have been a lot more interesting for him to go one-on-one with Sawney Rath, like Matthias' battle with Cluny.

Quote from: DanielofRedwall on August 02, 2011, 09:17:12 AM
I thought the Taggerung's "war" scene was disappointing...

There was a war scene?

The part where he killed Vallug.

I didn't really think of it as a war scene (but now that I think about it it could be classified as such considering Vallug fired arrows).

That's why we put war in quotation marks.

i think the first books wernt that good

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Well, Jacques was kind of trying to get the big idea of the series in the first few, so they might not be AS good. I love the first three.

I've only read the first book and it was great so.............

I personally think the earlier books are better, but I can't figure out why. I guess I just like them better. I still like the later ones though

Me, too.

Quote from: The Lady Shael on August 02, 2011, 02:04:35 PM
Most importantly, it was the last book (that I read) that had characters I already knew (Cregga was still alive). Every book after that took place seasons and seasons after the previous book, and it just felt like I was reading random fanfiction, not a book series. It made me feel like he wasn't familiar enough with his own series to include the same characters in multiple books, and instead had to make up completely new characters each time.

I feel very much the same way. I have read all the new books except for Rogue Crew and thought they were at least entertaining if somewhat flat and predictable, very much lacking the luster of previous stories. My cut off is after Loamhedge, though Triss was not one of the best in my opinion. I still read the ones afterwards, but I just seemed to plod through them for the lingering sense of nostalgia and dedication to the series. I missed seeing and hearing from characters I knew.

With recurring characters, one feels more connection to the story. When the books just kept pushing forward, I felt as though the series lost a bit of that depth to it that it once had. Character types were repeated, as were major plot points and structures. I felt like I was reading skeleton of the same book, just with different parts making up the "meat" of the story, if that makes any sense.

I also think it may have something to do with my age as the series went on. I haven't gone back and read any of the old books in a while, though I'm tempted to re-read the series before I get to Rogue Crew to see what I think of the oldest of the books. Perhaps in chronological order this time...

Quote from: yeswonderful on August 04, 2011, 11:48:48 PM
I also think it may have something to do with my age as the series went on. I haven't gone back and read any of the old books in a while, though I'm tempted to re-read the series before I get to Rogue Crew to see what I think of the oldest of the books. Perhaps in chronological order this time...

I agree with you, yeswonderful. I think the fact that I like the earlier books more has a lot to do with my age as the series went on.

I'm doing just what you're tempted to do, re-reading the series in chronological order before I read Rogue Crew. I highly recommend it, it's wonderful re-reading my old favourites.

Quote from: Lily on August 05, 2011, 01:09:35 AM
I'm doing just what you're tempted to do, re-reading the series in chronological order before I read Rogue Crew. I highly recommend it, it's wonderful re-reading my old favourites.

Right before I read your post I started Lord Brocktree  ;)  Already remembering how much I loved that book. So far the Prologue and first chapter are just as I remember them.  :)

Once I finish the series, I'm probably gonna do that, too.

ah donae ken 8)

i believe that the eirlier ones are better. all the way to Triss. after that it jsut went downhill fast for me and it was dull in the last book. i think that the first 5 books were the best of the entire series

Quote from: yeswonderful on August 05, 2011, 01:57:20 AM
[Right before I read your post I started Lord Brocktree  ;)  Already remembering how much I loved that book. So far the Prologue and first chapter are just as I remember them.  :)

Lord Brocktree is one of my favorite books (see my username ;) )!  The characters are just awesome.  I like that Lord Brocktree is much more.....oh what's a good word for it.....well, I like that he's less distant than Urthstripe and some of the others.  And Dotti...well, she's just epic! :D  That being said, I do agree with Sir James's post a while back about the flaws of the book: It is true that Dotti winning over Bucko is a bit of a stretch, however, I didn't think it overly impossible.   It is fiction after all.

I guess the biggest thing for me is the uselessness of the blue hordes.  It's kind of like a giant that never gets to use his great strength because he keeps tripping over his own feet.  So by the time the heroes get to him, he's flat out on his back and and really can't put up much of a fight.
Having said that, I love the characters so much, that it's still one of my favorite books! 
For me, the series really died off with Loamhedge.  Loamhedge, Eulalia!, Doomwhyte, and The Sable Quean were my least favorites.  The Rogue Crew revived the series to a great finish!  So I guess the later books aren't as good as the early ones, but it's the very last ones that I don't like as much.

I started with Mossflower, and it is still the best in my opinion.

I really think they are all really good but I should not get a say as I have not read all of them  :)

I never read them in order, so I don't know about earlier vs. later books.  Sure, there were books I liked and books I didn't, but whether that has any connection to the order of the books I don't know.

All of them are the best!

I agree they are all brill

The early ones until Pearls of Lutra are the best! After that, it's pretty much the same(I'm now reading Lord Brocktree, so i'm talking of the books between this one and Pearls of Lutra)

Brian's strongest book is Mossflower, in my opinion. After I read it when I got it from the library, I immediately loved the plot, character development, and the final battle in the third book. I own a soft cover edition of Mossflower. I love all of them, but Mossflower is what really got me started on the series.

We think the middle ones are best.

I liked all the books, but the earlier ones are special. There isn't as much heavy stereotyping. For example, in Mossflower, Martin was ready to help that old searat, who was already dead on the shore. I can't really recall any other instances where a goodbeast was so willing to help a vermin. Also, the characters seem to act more animal-like.

Stereotyping... Remember in Redwall when Constance says that she thinks that Cluny's horde are especially bad and evil rats and the Redwallers get all indignant? I always thought that part was funny.

Quote from: AxeHound on November 17, 2012, 06:17:50 PM
Stereotyping... Remember in Redwall when Constance says that she thinks that Cluny's horde are especially bad and evil rats and the Redwallers get all indignant? I always thought that part was funny.

I smile at that part every time. If only they could have stayed that way throughout the whole series.

I think The Taggerung could have been improved by some Juska tribe (like Ruggan Bors) attacking Redwall, I think it would have been more intresting since the juska tribe are new it would have been a good oppertunity to introduce new weapons or tactics.

 ;D   I think some of the older books, such as Lord Brocktree , The Long Patrol , and Martin The Warrior
really are a lot better. Course, I've only read 8 Redwall books.

Really I can't rank the books in order from the greatest to the least greatest, because to me they all have their strengths.

I actully think that he inproved on his Redwall books as time passed.

Me too!

I think that the storylines just got better and better over time. I don' see why some people think they got worse and worse.

me and my friend were talking about this too. we are both on marlfox, and it seems like redwall, mossflower, and the rest are good exept until you get to the long patrol. I love that book don't get me wrong, but it seems like the storyline strays a lot from the other books

I think the best titles are 1 through 9.

Quote from: brookeloveslotr on December 23, 2013, 11:40:38 PM
I think the best titles are 1 through 9.

In the original publication order?

Yes.

Though I credit Jacques for sticking to something many authors would have quit after maybe eight books, he just kept going. But sometime after Lord Brocktree, it really became clear that the series had become redundant and pointless. Jacques would just introduce new casts with every novel---which almost never had anything to do with the one before it. This was frustrating and I kept hoping it would pick up again. But then he died, and...well, I don't really know what happened in the last 4 books, but I can tell from the fact that each was a stand alone story that Jacques was apparently either mistakenly believing that that was what the public wanted, or loved doing that sort of thing.

I'm posting in this old topic because I have something to say and because it's old enough that hopefully newer members have something to contribute here as well.

The "earlier books" are, to me, all books from Redwall to Triss, in publication order.  Triss is the turning point in the series for me because it is the last book that has a chronological connection to another (Skipper was named as being a descendant of the Taggerung), and because the next book, Loamhedge, was where I caught up with the series and had to wait for each book from then on to be released.  Until then, they were read in whatever order they were available at the library, and it was neither publication nor chronological order.  What I like most about the earlier books is that each has a connection to the other; some characters, such as Arven, Tansy, Starbuck, Breeze, and Cregga were alive in more than one book.  Many others were in multiple books by name, and numerous characters were named as descendants of beloved characters from previous books.  Taggerung was strong in naming former Abbesses and villians of times passed.  This is something I miss in the later books, which seem to hang in time.  This has been said before, but the greatest strength of the earlier books were the large armies present on both sides, notably in Lord Brocktree and The Long Patrol.  That was epic, medieval warfare.  Later books mostly showed small bands of untrained youth going on adventures and encountering small but vicious bands of vermin, and they lack the memorable villains and heroes of previous stories.  Exceptions are made on both sides, but this is the overall trend, and it's why I greatly prefer the earlier fifteen books to the later seven.  Two points: The High Rhulain was phenomenal, and the series had a strong finish in The Rogue Crew.
Even the earlier books can be divided.  I think of them as the first six, in which the Redwall world was coming together, and a history and sense of time were being created; and the next nine, in which the Redwall world is strong and exciting, villains are memorable and fierce, battle claims the lives of good and bad alike, many different places and species are seen, and there are sea otters.  If there's anything the first six books lack, it's the reliability and roughness of sea otters.  The middle nine books are, to me, where the heart of the series is found.

I wouldn't say that there's a clear "yes" or "no" answer to this; I think the series got, overall, both better and worse in different respects. For example, I think the quality of the writing actually got better as the series went on (as in, some of the very early books tended to have spots of awkward or clumsy prose, but these seemed to become less and less noticeable with each installment, probably due to Brian gaining more experience as a writer). But on the other hand, even if the prose was more competent, the much later Redwall books (namely, from Triss onward) were more likely to have phoned-in, dull, or ill-thought-out plots (the only two Redwall books that I actually dislike come from this period). I'd say that the middle books (say, from Martin the Warrior to Taggerung) marked the most consistently good period of the series, with those books for the most part sporting a healthy balance of both competent writing, and original, functional plots.

Meh, I honestly don't like Redwall that much.  There are some newer books that I like a lot more then the older ones. I do love the Rogue Crew.

Generally, yes.

At some point, somewhere in the teens, Jacques became something of a hack. It pains me to say that, but it's about the most appropriate to put it.

The stories still had their good qualities, but by and large it was like he kept cranking them out for no particular reason. To be fair, some ideas would pop into his head and he'd try to work with them (heck, that's how writing works in the first place)...its just that some of those ideas didn't work out in the long run, or he's mix and match story ideas that kinda got in each other's way. Other times, well...it was like he was making some stories just cash in on the Redwall name.

The saddest part was that he was starting to turn things around and get his old spark back when he died  :'(

I dunno. . . The Rogue Crew was really one of my least favorites. I personally did enjoy most of the earlier books (except Triss and perhaps others), but the last ones weren't too bad.

TBH I felt Mossflower was no where near as good as Martin The Warrior

 

Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on April 01, 2013, 04:50:38 AM
I think that the storylines just got better and better over time. I don' see why some people think they got worse and worse.

I know, right?

It seems I stand almost alone in that I not only don't care about reading the books in any order, and that I don't think that any of the Redwall books are any better or worse than others. Sure, there are a few I don't like as much as others (Triss, for example. When I first read it, I really didn't like the book and didn't even finish it! But I've started liking it more as time goes by.) but to go as far as saying that some Redwall books are worse than others? That seems to be going a little far to me, but then that's me.
We all have favorite books, and I'm sure we all have books that we don't like as much in Redwall. I think that all the Redwall books are equal - It's just what we think of them. For example, this post:

Quote from: Speedbird on June 29, 2015, 07:21:50 AM
TBH I felt Mossflower was no where near as good as Martin The Warrior

And yet - I feel exactly the opposite. Don't get me wrong - I love them both! Yet I don't feel that Martin the Warrior is in the same class as Mossflower, my favorite book.

There are staples of the series, chief of which are Long Patrol, Triss, Mossflower and Taggerung. Taggerung is awesome. It is Jaques at his full strength. It shows that he made the best villain (although Bor was a little pitch perfect, he got what was coming) and at the end the cameo of Russano was perfect. The link of Boorab and the long patrol was fascinating and added a fun little side point. What really made Taggerun for me is Cregga's death. Brain managed to kill her off with some action withy the arrow, but she actually died in a way that made it heartwarming. Normal deaths, with a sword, are more of a shocker, but long deaths are a tearjerker. Taggerung, to me, is the pivotal point.

Although the "early' books are easily classified, maybe we'd like them more if we read them in a different order, similar to the Machete Order (the Machete order is a specific way of viewing the Star Wars movies that makes the prequels marginally more acceptable).

That would mean writing several books as a flashback, i.e. after finished Long Patrol that would be an awesome time to read Brocktree because it could be a way of showing the history of the long Patrol, after reading Long Patrol readers would finally say "What is the long patrol?" and reading Brocktree after that would fill them in and show what Russano did after becoming Lord of the Mountain. I'll post the order later on tomorrow.

I never really liked Taggerung...

Quote from: Delthion on July 20, 2015, 04:17:51 AM
I never really liked Taggerung...

Taggerung is one of the best.

I agree. It's my second favorite next to High Rhulain.

My favorite is The Long Patrol.

My favorite is Mattimeo, then Rakkety Tam.

Taggerung was boring. No battle, no real villain. Actually, it seemed as if Taggerung himself was the main villain, and the main hero in the same instant.

I can't stand Mattimeo.

Mattimeo is on my shelf for my Redwall re-read, and I'm vaguely annoyed I have to re-read all the parts where Mattimeo is a whiny brat before he steps up and becomes a hero. It was such a letdown to have the son of such a great character and warrior start out as such a punk.

He didn't seem to be a whiny brat in the beginning to me, sure he had some rather large flaws, but he fixed that and then helped everyone out of the mess that they were in.

I know it'll get better once Mattimeo "grows up" in the book, but establishing his initial character in those first few chapters can be a slog to read through.

But it's encouraging to see how much he changes. . .

And so quickly.

I personally think its not a matter of earlier books and newer books, But just a matter of everyone's preference.

I mean, High Rhulain is my third favorite redwall book. But I haven't read Triss, Loamhedge, Rakkety Tam, Eulalia, Doomwyte, The Sable Quean or The Rogue Crew but I have read All the books up to Marlfox (which I adore). And I say that because I haven't finished The Legend of Luke but I've also read Lord Brocktree and Taggerung and I absoflippinlutely love both of them so If you call Lord Brocktree or Taggerung as "later" books than no. But like I said, I haven't read Triss, Loamhedge, Rakkety Tam, Eulalia, Doomwyte, The Sable Quean or The Rogue Crew which are the really later books. High Rhulain is later and as said in the beginning, it's my third favorite. Keep in mind that my top 2 favorites are Mossflower and Redwall. Wow I made this long!