So, we know there are wolves in Redwall. We've heard of them more than once, but we haven't really seen anything of a wolf in the series except for Urgan Nagru, who wore the wolf pelt.
Who were they? Are there any left? Do they only reside in the Far North? How big are they? Would they be able to beat a badger lord or a wolverine?
We have no real way of gauging the comparison of size between foxes, wolverines, and badgers. . . Or really, much of any of the other species, so finding the size is difficult.
The wolf was defininitely bigger than Urgan Nagru. It wouldn't have been very impressive to kill the wolf if he wasn't. But if Urgan had to have cut down the pelt to make it fit him without swimming in it, then we really have no idea how much bigger.
We can assume badgers are bigger than foxes, as described in Taggerung. "Russano the wise was twice as broad and half as tall again than any creature present" (to paraphrase). This included the Juskabor with its leader, Ruggan Bor, a fully grown fox and a good fighter.
Gulo the Savage was also very large. I can't find an exact description of his size in the book, but he was easily as big, if not bigger, than a badger.
In real life, wolves would be much bigger than either of these. Then again, otters can get pretty large too, but they usually seem smaller than most badgers. Assuming wolves are, perhaps, half as tall again as badgers/wolverines (to be conservative), then that would make them a little less than twice as big as a fox.
No wonder Urgan could use the fox skull as a helmet.
What are your thoughts?
In real life, foxes and badgers are about the same size, whereas a fox would stand up to about the height of a wolf's chest. Sizes in Redwall are very wonky.
Everyone wants wolves to be huge, but they as a species are not bulky like badgers and wolverines.
Therefore, these two reasons combined, I would make them a head or so taller than foxes.
In theory the wolves would be about two foxes on top of eachother or 1 1/2 badgers. They would be monstrous and scary. Would they eat other animals like Gulo or would they eat regular stuff like redwallers? We don't know and Mr.Jacques probably didn't want us to know.
I think they might be appropriated to being a head taller than the badgers at most? I don't think Brian would want creatures to get much bigger than the badgers.
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/redwall/images/8/8c/Urgan.gif/revision/latest?cb=20051015154634)
The skull is about the same size as Urgan's.
The body is a bit but not too much larger than Urgan's.
Keep in mind that is just an artist's depiction, and may not be as Brian intended it to be.
All official art of Urgan is like that, not just that specific one. And we all know that different artists did different things, such as foreign covers and the poster, so I'm sure Brian had some input into it.
If a wolf were so comparable in size to a fox, why would it be at all impressive for Urgan to kill the wolf in the first place?
Rare and strong.
Imagine, this dude killed an animal that pretty much nobody has ever seen and nobody knows how they are like. It's not like foxes are tiny.
QuoteWe can assume badgers are bigger than foxes, as described in Taggerung. "Russano the wise was twice as broad and half as tall again than any creature present" (to paraphrase). This included the Juskabor with its leader, Ruggan Bor, a fully grown fox and a good fighter.
Just bringing this back to show what I'm imagining.
But if we go off the size of the skull on Urgan, then a wolf would likely be the same height as a badger, like Russano. And Russano was not the biggest badger.
Perhaps, but doubtfully bigger. Even the size of a wildcat would make more sense.
Who, Russano or the wolves?
Wolves. Haha. :P
Why would that make more sense?
European wildcat- about 65 cm (26in), half of which is a tail, and a weight of about 8 kg/18 pounds.
European badger- about 90 cm (35 in), including the tail, and a weight of 13 kg (29 lb) to 17 kg (37 lb) depending on the season.
SMALL Eurasian wolf- about 105cm (41 in) and a weight of around 32 kg (71 lb)
I chose large examples of wildcats and badgers to show the difference and put it into perspective.
Regardless of the manipulation of sizes in the series to make it more realistic, I still am not sure a wolf should be scaled down to the size of a wildcat. :P
Also, upon researching the sizes, it looks like the UK used to have wolves, but they were trapped to extinction. This may be why Brian never had more in the series.
Because badgers and wildcats are roughly the same size in the series.
the wolves are the biggest animals in redwall. ed of discussion
Lol. That works. ;D
Look at all the official media of Urgan Nagru. ::)
The scaling of creatures in redwall has always been rather wonky, if we were going by more realistic sizes then the biggest creatures--note I'm specifically talking about height not bulk--should be as follows:
Wolverine: 65–107 cm length, 30-45 cm and 5.5–25 kg weight
Badger: 60–90 cm length, 25–30 cm height and 15–17 kg weight
Red Fox: 45–90 cm length, 35–50 cm height and 2.2–14 kg
and just for fun, here's the Giant Otter:
Giant Otter: 1.5-1.7 m length and 26-32 kg weight (They're about the size of alligators)
Interestingly enough, the largest creatures in redwall wouldn't be a very clear cut winner. Wolverines have the longest length and weight, whereas foxes have the greatest height at the shoulder, If you were taking these numbers and transplanting them to redwall, they'd actually all be pretty similar in height, with the foxes having occasional smaller members and the wolverines having the largest.
Then we come to the next bit of the equation, bulk. Foxes tend to be rather spry creatures, they don't have a lot of mass, compared to badgers and wolverines the foxes are puny in the mass category. Although you'll notice that wolverine weight can also go below ten kilos, meaning they--like foxes--would have a greater range of sizes, whereas badgers are pretty consistent with their sizes.
But wait, Steelinghades! I hear you cry, what does that have to do with wolves? Well not much, I generally tend to ignore wolves when thinking of redwall since they were mentioned once and then never mentioned again--AFAIK--so I tend to ignore it, but just for completions sake, let's look at the sizes of the gray wolf.
Gray wolf: 105–160 cm length, 80–85 cm height and 43–45 kg weight.
^
Hmm...I'm thinking about putting wolves in my fanfic "The Grey Warlord" and i was wondering, do you think a tribe of wolves would crush the long patrol or not?
Probably, wolves are about the same size as (if not bigger) badgers, and just as ferocious (though not as smart). It all depends on how big the patrol is and how smart the leaders are
I guess it might also depend on the warriors in the long patrol too, because Cuthbert fought like a badgerlord in one of the books.
You can make them however you want, since they're not seen and we don't know what they're like. I've always imagined them like the Rangers from LotR.
Whatever I want eh. *rubs hands together while chuckling*
Quote from: The Skarzs on March 25, 2019, 07:06:11 PM
You can make them however you want, since they're not seen and we don't know what they're like. I've always imagined them like the Rangers from LotR.
Interesting comparison, in my option that would make the wolves Fell Beasts or Nazgul :P
I always kinda thought of Ravens to be like Fell Beasts.
Wolves in the Grey Warlord hmmm.... I'm not going to comment on this beyond 'that sounds interesting'.
Redwall sizes are wonky, but I tend to imagine them as more in-line with their natural heights than say, the TV show depicted. I think the easiest way to explain it is like this: mice, shrews, voles are scaled up (but shrews are still tiny) to a bit bellow the average vermin, who I tend to imagine as squirel-sized-a head lower if you will- heights obviously vary from character to character is, Mathias is shorter than Martin imho.
Then hares and hedgehog's (who are a bit shorter than hares) are next, being taller than the average stoat, ferret, rat, weasel etc (although rats go somewhere in the middle. Can be big like the Gloomer or small like Vitch)
Then otters, foxes and felines at about double the height of the average stoat, ferret, pine marten etc
Then about a head taller than that you get the badgers and wolverines. Obviously it depends on the character; children and old beasts will be smaller than someone in their prime.
Wolves I'd imagine as bigger than badgers- about twice the average height of foxes, cats and otters. So yeah, pretty big.
That's just me of course. Although now I'm more interested in seeing a giant otter in Redwall (one that is huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge, ya know alligator-sized).
Giant Amazon river otter?
See, it's hard to really put a size on creatures when there really is no hard visual of how Jacques wanted them, akin to the maps. (Contrast that with LotR, where we are spoiled by Tolkien actually drawing the maps. . .) But that's kind of the point of the series, to have you use your imagination.
Quote from: Sebias of Redwall on March 25, 2019, 06:56:06 PM
Hmm...I'm thinking about putting wolves in my fanfic "The Grey Warlord" and i was wondering, do you think a tribe of wolves would crush the long patrol or not?
I recall two fanfics with wolves in them.
One had the wolves only being a bit bigger then foxes, and thus smaller then badgers, but they operated as a pack and were far more vicious and skilled then any other vermin and that was why they were feared.
The other, the blood between us, had them being much bigger, A giant fox to quote a woodlander from the story and they were dangerous because of raw strength and size.
In essence what I'm try into convey is it doesn't matter exactly how you put them in just that they're well thought and well written in. You do that and people will be happy.
Quote from: The Skarzs on March 26, 2019, 04:56:35 PM
Giant Amazon river otter?
See, it's hard to really put a size on creatures when there really is no hard visual of how Jacques wanted them, akin to the maps. (Contrast that with LotR, where we are spoiled by Tolkien actually drawing the maps. . .) But that's kind of the point of the series, to have you use your imagination.
Yup, by my logic they'd be a teeny tiny bit bigger than wolves, so rather gigantic next to a shrew (an alligator wouldn't be bad either- kind of like a dragon)
Official media is also a bit confusing (because not every artist is the same obviously but still, I think there's a stoat called Scummy in Triss who has to hold up Plugg Firetail's tail and the Redwall wiki picture makes him look tiny- shrew-sized. Compare this to Badrang- who would look ridiculous bullying that one one-eared yellow-cloaked fox in Martin the Warrior if he were that small.)
Also wasn't Auma bigger than Matimeo and company? Coz the TV Show makes her just as small which is not what you'd expect from a badger.
Also due to the wonky sizes stairs should be impossible in this world. Are the steps made for mouse-feetpaws? If so how does a badger put their foot on it? Or if it's the inverse, mice climbing a staircase has just earned a whole new meaning (picture of mountain climbers)
That's all a bit off-topic, apologies, let me rectify this by proposing a new kind of discussion. What accent/verbal tics (if any) would the wolves of the Redwall-verse (irrespective of size) have?
I'm not sure if it's entirely off topic; it is a good question. Sizes make a huge difference when trying to make a works where so much variety is supposed to interact.
I would guess the wolves would have a "northern" accent. Maybe Swedish or Scottish, or Greenland-ish.
Quote from: The Skarzs on March 27, 2019, 05:39:56 PM
I'm not sure if it's entirely off topic; it is a good question. Sizes make a huge difference when trying to make a works where so much variety is supposed to interact.
I would guess the wolves would have a "northern" accent. Maybe Swedish or Scottish, or Greenland-ish.
Regarding the size differences, that's why I feel people who say mice are human sized are making a rather large mistake, because then you have ridiculous circumstances such as twenty to thirty feet badgers and twelve foot hares.
I personally don't consider a mouse the same size as a human, consider it. Mice are supposed to be small and weak by brave, what does that remind you of? Hobbits and halflings. I consider foxes and hares as human sized, thus mice are around three to four feet and badgers are eight to ten, which while large isn't as ridiculous as Kaijuu sized badgers.
^^^ Agreed.