OK...so which one is it? Mine would have to be Luke the Warrior -
*angry fans violently kill me*
Deyna (a.k.a. The Taggerung) just seemed to perfect to me, and a bit unrealistic. He was brought up evil, and yet became good straight away, just because he was an otter, and otters are "goodies". Also, I don't care what happened to him, no otter could pick up a boulder and throw it as easily and as with little effort as he did. So, Deyna is my least favourite.
I'd have to say Lona Bowstripe from Loamhedge would be my second least favourite. He just wasn't the most interesting character, although I dislike the book Triss more then Loamhedge.
Also, Tiria Wildlough seems to perfect at everything (Sue-like). She would rank at 3rd. Also, she just isn't that interesting.
Gotta agree with you on Deyna. And Lonna Bowstripe was a bit too much like Gorath the Flame, but I have to say I like Lonna better.
Ugh all those dumb badgers in Eulalia! They were so boring and way too perfect. That book was one of my least favorites, tied with Doomwyte.
I also really didn't care for Martin II all that much. Very vanilla.
the fat dude who was Rakkety Tam's friend ::)
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on November 08, 2011, 03:35:10 AM
OK...so which one is it? Mine would have to be Luke the Warrior -
*angry fans violently kill me*
That would be me ;)
I'd have to say Uggo Wiltud
I didin't really like Tiria "Angry fans then turn on me"
Quote from: Taggerung The Otter on November 08, 2011, 08:59:09 PM
the fat dude who was Rakkety Tam's friend ::)
Tha' wid be
the Wild Doogy Plum.
Tiria for a couple of reasons.
1.No sense of character development.
2.Seems like a Sue
Let me elaborate.
1.From the beginning of the book, we know that Tiria is awesome with the sling. She hits a rat on the head and kills him from a incredible distance. She manages, with no formal training, takes out a gang of 8 water rats with the odds 2-1. She can hit a weasel two times in the eyes and head, something not even the best Guosim slinger can do. She kills Riggu Felis instantly.
2.From what we know, Tiria is taller than her dad by a head. She is said to be beautiful. She is trustworthy and everyone likes her. From Cuthbert Frunk standards, she's the best cook he ate from. And, coincidentally she is the queen of her people.
I hated Gorath.
Quote from: Muse on November 10, 2011, 01:47:53 AM
I hated Gorath.
Me too. He's just an elaborated replica of Lonna Bowstripe. ::)
I didn't dislike Deyna when I read the book the first time, but I think he could have been much more interesting than he was, and in retrospect, he does come off as Sue-ish. He seems so clean-cut -- even the original Skipper and the otters in Mossflower spoke with an accent, but if I remember right (I don't have my copy right with me) Tagg's dialect is more refined than that, even though it really shouldn't be. He was raised by vermin, and although I don't mind him not being evil, I'd like to see more of a conflict than just, "Nope, I'm not going to be evil, period" right off the bat. Even though we know he's a murderer (by proxy), Sawney Rath still was the one that raised him and he should've had more influence in Tagg's life than that. Also, he wins everything too easily; if we at least got to see him cross blades with Eefera, that would have been interesting, but we don't even see them fight, we just see the aftereffects, which is kind of cheap.
Luke, Martin, Matthias, and even Mattimeo were all cool in their own way, but Martin II was just... boring. The only time we see him do anything, he gets an easy victory. He's immune to Ublaz's hypnosis, and there is absolutely no good reason for this. I think Pearls of Lutra might've been more interesting if it was set a little bit earlier, and we saw Mattimeo go -- he could've been past his prime, which would've made it all the better, showing that age isn't a barrier to doing the right thing. It also would've been a good chance to show Tess, etc. and continue character development; Martin II could've still been young in the story, say, Tansy and Viola's age, or younger.
For that matter, although he isn't a main hero, I don't like Clecky either; he's basically the same as Tarquin, only slightly more martial (like Basil Stag Hare), and he just tears through vermin like he does food, when I don't think he ought to be that good. The same goes for Grath Longfletch; her and her husband-to-be are both too dangerous and smash the Monitors too easily.
I don't like Dotti Dillworthy because she's very young, flippant, and yet great at everything (even when it doesn't make sense for her to be).
Tiria Wildlough (the character)... I've talked about her several times before. She's great at everything, bigger and better than everyone else, outstandingly beautiful, etc, etc, and etc. She easily defeats everyone she faces without a single significant challenge in the entire book (if I remember right). Oh, and there's a prophecy about her too. She can't become Skipper just because she's a girl, but that's okay because she can become a Queen.
...
I mean, come on.
Finally, I actually like Buckler Kordyne; that is, he isn't anywhere near being my "least favourite hero", but I do think he might have been a little bit overpowered in the sword skills; I think the book would have been better if the Badger Lord described him as being as "good as his grandfather" (without the implication that he might be better), and if Zwilt wasn't losing the swordfight at the end of the book. He could've still gotten the hostage and threatened to execute him, but it would've been a time-saving thing -- just like how the readers understand that Cluny took Hugo not because Matthias was winning their duel, but because he wanted to speed things up a bit, and not have to go to as much trouble to win.
It also would be nice if his weapon wasn't built up as being an uber-weapon second only to Martin's sword; I understand that it's top-notch for what it is, but rapiers had advantages and disadvantages like any other blade, and I think a weapon with a rich history, like Blademaster Feryn Kordyne's broadsword, ought to be portrayed as equally effective. One time it describes Zwilt's blow as numbing Buck's paw, in their brief fight in the forest, and it would've been nice if that same kind of dynamic applied in their last fight.
Quote from: James Gryphon on November 10, 2011, 03:49:07 AM
I don't like Dotti Dillworthy because she's very young, flippant, and yet great at everything (even when it doesn't make sense for her to be).
I don't understand what you mean by "good at everything".
Was Dotti a good singer? Everyone knows that answer, no.
Was Dotti beautiful? This question is where people go wrong. She called herself a "fatal beauty". But Bucko disagreed. There is a difference between being beautiful and being pretty. Though towards the end of the book there was some comment from Brocktree about her being beautiful, but I think it was meant as interior beauty.
Was Dotti good at housework? Apparently not because her parents kicked her out.
Was Dotti good at preforming? I don't know, she never got the opportunity to show us.
Was Dotti good at fighting? Nope. It was only through her friend training that she beat Bucko.
And I'll go ahead and answer another question:
How did Dotti rise in the ranks of the Long Patrol so fast? Remember, it was the founding of the patrol. All the warriors Brocktree knew were good were also old. Of all the hares that had just come to the mountain, Brocktree knew Dotti best. He picked her because he trusted her.
I havent read all the books yet, but so far my least favorite would have to be martin II or Joseph.
That's a good idea, James. Mattimeo going instead of Martin II would be awesome
Quote from: Redwall Musician on November 10, 2011, 03:24:27 PM
Quote from: James Gryphon on November 10, 2011, 03:49:07 AM
I don't like Dotti Dillworthy because she's very young, flippant, and yet great at everything (even when it doesn't make sense for her to be).
I don't understand what you mean by "good at everything".
Was Dotti a good singer? Everyone knows that answer, no.
Was Dotti beautiful? This question is where people go wrong. She called herself a "fatal beauty". But Bucko disagreed. There is a difference between being beautiful and being pretty. Though towards the end of the book there was some comment from Brocktree about her being beautiful, but I think it was meant as interior beauty.
Was Dotti good at housework? Apparently not because her parents kicked her out.
Was Dotti good at preforming? I don't know, she never got the opportunity to show us.
Was Dotti good at fighting? Nope. It was only through her friend training that she beat Bucko.
And I'll go ahead and answer another question:
How did Dotti rise in the ranks of the Long Patrol so fast? Remember, it was the founding of the patrol. All the warriors Brocktree knew were good were also old. Of all the hares that had just come to the mountain, Brocktree knew Dotti best. He picked her because he trusted her.
*applause* Very good, Musician. You have a point. Sometimes the Mary Sue rampage can just go too far. ;)
I think I'd actually have to go pick up the books again to determine who I really didn't like because they were just too perfect to be believable. Some of the comments here make me want to read up on Martin II or Tiria-neither of which I recall very well. Perhaps that's a sign of how uninteresting that story or its characters were....hmmm... :-\
@JG, I reckon you've just made up your mind that you don't like Tiria. Yeah, she might be a bit of a Sue, but that doesn't stop me from liking her. ;)
It's true, I don't like Tiria (the character! ;)), but that's in good part because I think she's a Sue... and one of the most blatant ones, at that. Melanda MacBurl is almost as bad, but it isn't as important because she only plays a minor role in one chapter.
If you don't think she is a Sue (or much of one), I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning why, but 'til then, that's what I'm inclined to think.
@Lutra: Pearls of Lutra (the book Martin II appears in), at least in my opinion, is definitely worth re-reading, if just for the villains and the secondary heroes, like Rasconza, Tansy, and Craklyn. The main heroes aren't awful, either, though I think they do have some flaws.
High Rhulain... well, it does have an interesting plot, on Green Isle. It's probably worth rereading -- if you don't like Wildlough, you can just skip all the parts with her in it and still get an interesting half-story, from the beginning up until near the end. ;)
for me it would have to be martin the second.
Quote from: James Gryphon on November 13, 2011, 06:07:08 AM
High Rhulain... well, it does have an interesting plot, on Green Isle. It's probably worth rereading -- if you don't like Wildlough, you can just skip all the parts with her in it and still get an interesting half-story, from the beginning up until near the end. ;)
*Gasp of horror* :o :o I
never ever skip any part of a book I'm reading, even if I don't like it. Anyway. I really don't like
Taggerung, but I still reread the parts I do like. ;)
my least fav would have to be taggerung he wasnt in any real battles the whole book was just a bit boring to me
Quote from: rakkety tam on November 22, 2011, 12:43:18 AM
my least fav would have to be taggerung he wasnt in any real battles the whole book was just a bit boring to me
I agree, he wasn't my least favorite, but deff. Not my #1 or even close
Martin II is my least favorite. I mean, come on. He stared Ublaz in the face, and asn't at least a little entranced? Plus, he seems rather like a rerun.
True. Also Gorath. He is almost exactly the same as Lonna Bowstripe, and I personally think Lonna is better.
even though pearls of lutra is one of my top five favorites, martin II is its worst element, but it doesnt degrade the story, as the focus is on the villains (who are awesome) and the riddles(also awesome)
Matthias as well. He was great in Mattimeo, but in Redwall, then it seemed a bit unrealistic. I mean, a young mouse who can barely walk properly because of hit habit and sandals is a bumbling novice throughou the book. Then as soon as he gets the sword, he somehow has all of the skills of a seasoned warrior! :o
uggo wiltud was an awfule character. He was a sop, and he did nothing, and was always getting saved by posy. :P
by hero do yemean a good beastie
Quote from: Nightfire on November 22, 2011, 01:50:52 AM
Martin II is my least favorite. I mean, come on. He stared Ublaz in the face, and asn't at least a little entranced? Plus, he seems rather like a rerun.
I know! Ublaz is my favorite villain, and he hypnotized a coral snake but can't hypnotize Martin II?! Like he could've at least hypnotized him and then Martin II is saved by someone, I mean seriously!
I have to agree with many of you... Gorath and Martin II... not the best.
Well, I better put on a suit of armor for what I'm about to say...
Basil Stag Hare.
I honestly have no idea why, other than I think the t.v show ruined him for me. As a kid, I loved the show and thought Basil was awesome, and still did after rereading Redwall! However, after taking the time to watch the show again...I dunno, it ruined him for me : /
But, if I have to go for a literal least favorite hero based solely on the books, I'm jumping on the Deyna bandwagon. For literally, all the reasons everyone has mentioned so far, I was waiting for him to die—even though I knew he would never fall to such a fate.
Hard choice, but I say Tiria, merely because she isn't one of my favourite favourites.
Would Uggo be considered the main character of the Rogue Crew? If so, I think he would be my least favorite
I always liked uggo i found him funny and I could relate... wich is bad cause that means im chubby :'(
I don' know, but i DO like the badgers. That much I can say.
Least favorite hero? A lot of people would say Deyna or Tiria or Martin jr. I personally dont loke any hero that is a youngun and is suddenly thrown into a wild situation and does an epic move to beat the bad guy. Like Bisky. I know he dodnt kill Doomwyte, but he semes like a hero that pulled off something impossible. Mattimeo is another. The development was good, but je was still just a kid!
I liked Martin jr. >:( however my least favorite hero will have to be sunflash.
True, Sunflash was not that interesting.
And for those who say Martin II had an easy victory he didn't, he was bitten on the neck remember? It was the snake that had an easy victory.
Martin II is just so boring.
Oh you naughty dibbun. ;D how many times have you read the pearls of lutra?
Quote from: Skarlath on December 24, 2011, 11:29:21 PM
Martin II is just so boring.
He isn't affected by Ublaz's eyes. ::)
Quote from: Melody on December 24, 2011, 11:49:12 PM
Oh you naughty dibbun. ;D how many times have you read the pearls of lutra?
I have read it aloud to my mum and sister, so I think I know a bit about it. ;)
last I read, unblaz didn't try to make Martin gaze into his eyes, he just started fighting.
In the part where Martin first sees Ublaz, the marten tries to hypnotize him, and is described as being frustrated because it doesn't work. ::)
True, but none of the four Ms (Martin, Matthias, Mattimeo, Martin II) could ever be defeated. Good guys must always win in the end.
Matthias was hypnotized but he snapped out of it because he had the spirit of Martin the warrior, maybe Martin II had the spirit of Martin the warrior when he gazed into Ublaz's eyes.
Quote from: Melody on December 25, 2011, 03:37:27 PM
...maybe Martin II had the spirit of Martin the warrior when he gazed into Ublaz's eyes.
It never said he did. And any of the ones you mentioned COULD have been defeated, it just doesn't talk about it. ;)
thinking that way can ruin a good imagination! But you see Martin II is a main character, and the hero in some way he has to resist the main bad guy's power. does that make sense?
I know we aren't allowed to double post but I just remembered,
I'm taking a one year novel course, and one of the hero's must haves, was that in some way he must be stronger or resistant to the villain, in this case Martin II was not affected by ublaz.
I would have liked it better if Martin had been hypnotized by Ublaz, then the marten is unconsciously stepping back, and treads on the snake. That would have been more exciting. 8)
still, I liked the whole fighting scene 8) but lets just agree to disagree.
I don't want to do that...
WHY DOES NOBODY LIKE MARTIN II?!
Sad to say, Trisscar would be my least favorite. I liked Triss, but she just never really appealed to me. She almost didn't seem like a main character to me, because she doesn't have a very interesting background and a lot of the book didn't even seem to revolve around her story. I think it would have been more accurate to name the book after Scarum, who got more "screen time" than anyone else, or off the idea that they're all runaways.
Deyna would be my second least favorite. He just seemed a little overpowered to me.
I agree, his training accounts for a lot, but all that training just seems like it would be even more likely to become vermin-like, not less vermin-like.
Third would be Tiria. She's kind and polite, which I like, but she just seems to be too easily accepted into every role.
do you like Martin II? :)
I think it was a good thing triss carried Martin's sword though, it would've been scary if scarum had it!
I do like him. He, Arven, and Rakkety Tam are my three favorite Abbey Warriors.
YES! Finally! I liked tam too. Arven, I had a crush on :D
Eek! You did?! :o :D
mattimeo was fail he was to brattish
Quote from: Cheesethief on November 10, 2011, 04:21:42 PM
I havent read all the books yet, but so far my least favorite would have to be martin II or Joseph.
I don't really agree with you on Joseph, he was actaully semi cool, Martin 2 sounds like the name of someones rowboat, Tiria is just annoying, Gorath is just a random badger who has no real part to play.
and i hate Triss and Rickety Tam, they are a squirrel version of Mariel and Dandin conveniently split into two books. Blah!
As a rule, I love every character for whatever reason. But since it just so happens I love some more than others, I'll throw my lot in this thread with Triss. Her swordplay abilities struck me as extremely unrealistic, and though she's not the only character to receive special skills from out of nowhere, Triss just grated on me a little for some reason.
Buckler and Bosie are two characters I go back and forth on. Whenever it seems like they were made to be "different for the sake of being different," I find I like them less. As if they were... I dunno, contrived to be.... ugh, dare I say it? Sues. NOT THAT I DON'T ADORE EVERY HARE IN EVERY BOOK, BUT. Just. For the record. ;)
Mariel is my least favorite hero.
Uuhhgggg. I hated Luke. He was kinda a showoff.
LUKE! Luke was a very respectable mouse, how can you name Luke as your least favorite!??!
BECAUSE he was pretty dumb to let himself get captured by all the evil vermin. I mean. If you saw two islands with a river through the middle, and you were chasing someone who would kill, what would you do?
It is only natural to go through the center sense you then have access to BOTH islands instead of just one.
I don't like Mattimeo. He was just so stuck up in the beginning. He should have been a better son for Matthias.
Quote from: Soren the Warrior on April 12, 2012, 06:56:27 PM
I don't like Mattimeo. He was just so stuck up in the beginning. He should have been a better son for Matthias.
But he learned form that which made him awesome.
He was a little Hero Brat kinda kid, yknow?
Quote from: MatthiasMan on April 12, 2012, 11:31:48 PM
He was a little Hero Brat kinda kid, yknow?
Thats a new one. But yes he was a Hero Brat.
I really didn't like Martin in MTW, he was just so hotheaded and brash that part of me wondered if it was actually the same guy who had saved Mossflower.
I didn't like Veil either, though that really depends on if you see him as a hero or not.
I don't see Veil as a hero, but if we looked at him under the heroic light, he would definitely be my least favorite.
Yeah. I can't say he was a Hero. What did he do besides be a pain and a little brat?
Uh... save his former care takers life! (although I must say she shouldn't have been following him)
See? He didn't do anything good but push someone outa the way. He isn't really a Hero, I think.
It's almost kind of funny how Veil fans will often go out of their way to explain that he was good the entire time because his sacrifice.
I wish Veil had been more gooder..... ;D (yes that was on purpose)
Me too.
Veil would have been a lot better for me had he been trying to redeem himself while he was in exile.
Yknow, Veil names? If you switch v and e you get evil. Just saying. ;D ;)
Quote from: MatthiasMan on April 14, 2012, 10:09:59 PM
Yknow, Veil names? If you switch v and e you get evil. Just saying. ;D ;)
I think that was some sort of poem recited during the book, let's see if I can remember some of it...
Let's hope there's no evil or anything vile in Veil? I'm too lazy to go and check XD
Well he was evil. No doubt.
Something about evil not dwelling in veil?
Quote from: MatthiasMan on April 14, 2012, 10:25:06 PM
Well he was evil. No doubt.
he lived evil, but died good.
Quote from: Taggerung The Otter on November 08, 2011, 08:59:09 PM
the fat dude who was Rakkety Tam's friend ::)
Dude, Wild Doogy Plumm was AWESOME
You fool, he's pure epicness in a kilt.
Quote from: Taggerung The Otter on November 08, 2011, 08:59:09 PM
the fat dude who was Rakkety Tam's friend ::)
>:( >:( >:(
I actually didn't notice your post until Shogg quoted it, that's why I didn't reply sooner.
What didn't you like about him?
I'm not much a fan of highlanders in general.
My least favorite hero is definitely Rose.
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on April 22, 2012, 01:34:51 AM
My least favorite hero is definitely Rose.
:P :P :P
Mariel is SSSOOO much more annoying! how could you not like Rose!!!???????!
Rose is soooo awesome!
I'd say Mariel was more annoying, but Rose is still up there on the Annoying Heroines list. :P
Quote from: danflorreguba on April 22, 2012, 03:28:41 AM
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on April 22, 2012, 01:34:51 AM
My least favorite hero is definitely Rose.
:P :P :P
Mariel is SSSOOO much more annoying! how could you not like Rose!!!???????!
Rose is soooo awesome!
We've had this argument before, I liked Mariel, let's not get into that again.
I personally think that Rose is a Mary-Sue. She has no big flaws.
Not getting into the mariel discussion again... Just defending Rose.
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on April 22, 2012, 01:34:51 AM
My least favorite hero is definitely Rose.
:o :o :o :o :o You insult me by liking Rose! (not really just surprised you don't like rose) ;D
Quote from: MatthiasMan on April 24, 2012, 01:49:07 AM
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on April 22, 2012, 01:34:51 AM
My least favorite hero is definitely Rose.
:o :o :o :o :o You insult me by liking Rose! (not really just surprised you don't like rose) ;D
I thought she was too perfect and designed as Martin's perfect love interest.
I thought Rose was awesome!
I agree
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on April 24, 2012, 07:48:27 PM
Quote from: MatthiasMan on April 24, 2012, 01:49:07 AM
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on April 22, 2012, 01:34:51 AM
My least favorite hero is definitely Rose.
:o :o :o :o :o You insult me by liking Rose! (not really just surprised you don't like rose) ;D
I thought she was too perfect and designed as Martin's perfect love interest.
And that's halfway to Suedom already. :P
I know this really doesn't count because I DO (kind of) like him, but I am subconsciously terrified of Felldoh.
Quote from: KaiTheDog on April 26, 2012, 12:16:29 AM
I know this really doesn't count because I DO (kind of) like him, but I am subconsciously terrified of Felldoh.
What do you mean?
Quote from: KaiTheDog on April 26, 2012, 12:16:29 AM
I know this really doesn't count because I DO (kind of) like him, but I am subconsciously terrified of Felldoh.
:D
I'm terrified of Gulo.
I also didn't like Dandin. I just thought he was kinda far-fetched, y'know?
I liked Dandin. "Right away marm, just like you say!" *jumps off belltower*
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on April 26, 2012, 10:07:03 AM
Quote from: KaiTheDog on April 26, 2012, 12:16:29 AM
I know this really doesn't count because I DO (kind of) like him, but I am subconsciously terrified of Felldoh.
What do you mean?
I had a nightmare about him once! It was that battle where he beat the snot out of Badrang, only there was none of that there.
Let's just say, Badrang died a unpleasant and very gory death O_O
Quote from: KaiTheDog on April 28, 2012, 12:18:04 AM
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on April 26, 2012, 10:07:03 AM
Quote from: KaiTheDog on April 26, 2012, 12:16:29 AM
I know this really doesn't count because I DO (kind of) like him, but I am subconsciously terrified of Felldoh.
What do you mean?
I had a nightmare about him once! It was that battle where he beat the snot out of Badrang, only there was none of that there.
Let's just say, Badrang died a unpleasant and very gory death O_O
Oh, okay... :-\
Quote from: KaiTheDog on April 28, 2012, 12:18:04 AM
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on April 26, 2012, 10:07:03 AM
Quote from: KaiTheDog on April 26, 2012, 12:16:29 AM
I know this really doesn't count because I DO (kind of) like him, but I am subconsciously terrified of Felldoh.
What do you mean?
I had a nightmare about him once! It was that battle where he beat the snot out of Badrang, only there was none of that there.
Let's just say, Badrang died a unpleasant and very gory death O_O
:D :D :D
Well, Badrang deserved it.
Ditto. It would be kinda cool if he was a good guy, but he would definately be my least favorite hero then.
Sir Harry the muse
My least favourite one would have to be Mattimeo.
I wasn't a huge fan of Triss
I didn't like the hedgehogs in Triss. They were too boring!
I think Matthias, sorry
Also, Mattimeo, Tess, and Cynthia. Those three kind of were... UN cool in my opinion. I don't hate them completely though. In the tv. Show, I thought the relationship between Matti and Tess was super adorable
Mattimeo
Lonna is probably my (Martin) least favorite. Tam's least favorite is Arven he wasn't mentioned to much.
Deyna is my favorite hero in red wall.
Shogg, the otter prisoner of course.
(http://images.wikia.com/redwall/images/3/35/Shogg_(by_Dawnrose).jpg)
Triss wasn't that intresting.
Quote from: Evangeline on October 17, 2012, 08:02:27 AM
Shogg, the otter prisoner of course.
Why don't you like him?
Skorr Axehound and Sunflash. I'm sorry to all the Sunflash fans out there, but I just wasn't very fond of him.
Quote from: Skipper on October 17, 2012, 03:21:56 PM
Triss wasn't that intresting.
Agreed. Neither was Martha from Loamhedge.
Quote from: Redwallfan7 on October 18, 2012, 09:00:11 PM
Quote from: Skipper on October 17, 2012, 03:21:56 PM
Triss wasn't that intresting.
Agreed. Neither was Martha from Loamhedge.
What I thought Martha was a great character.
Martha was a Sue. She was always good and perfect and she didn't even talk like a hare!
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on October 19, 2012, 12:20:26 AM
Martha was a Sue. She was always good and perfect and she didn't even talk like a hare!
I agree. I like characters who are Mischevious.
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on October 19, 2012, 12:20:26 AM
Martha was a Sue. She was always good and perfect and she didn't even talk like a hare!
Well if you put it that way.....she isn't the best character.
Egburt the Scholer
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on October 19, 2012, 12:20:26 AM
Martha was a Sue. She was always good and perfect and she didn't even talk like a hare!
I liked Martha, but I agree that she was a total Sue. I roll my eyes whenever I read the description of her in the book.
What's the description? I forgot.
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on October 22, 2012, 09:53:15 PM
What's the description? I forgot.
"Martha Braebuck grew up an extremely bright young creature with a thirst for knowledge. She was a formidable reader and scholar, the equal even of the venerated mouse, Sister Portula, Redwall's Abbey Recorder. Martha could solve riddles and equations, write poems, ballads and even sing. According to popular opinion, she had the sweetest singing voice ever heard within the Abbey walls. She never complained about being chairbound, and was invariably cheerful and willing to help others. The maid was a welcome and useful member of the Redwall Abbey community." ~
Loamhedge, page 17
Blergh. What a Sue. :P :P
Samkim, I just don't like how he had no trouble killing vermin when hare's from the long patrol would be shocked, but apart from that he was okay.
slagar
Just saying, there are 2,036 specific Redwall characters.
Hmm...maybe the High Rhulain...to be honest, High Rhulain was one of my least favourite Redwall books...it was still great, but not as good as, say, Mariel of Redwall.
I also agree with folks who said Martha - she was kind of a boring character, and as people ahve been saying, a Sue.
Quote from: U.N.K.N.O.W.N. on November 27, 2012, 09:54:16 PM
slagar
opps sorry, least favorite HERO
I would have to go with Rollo, I didn't care for him that much
I guess Mariel is my least favourite Redwall hero.
Yep, I'm definitely in for a flame with this one...
My least favourite hero.... Matthias of Redwall.
Mattimeo or Triss
Quote from: Free Thought on April 05, 2013, 08:51:49 PM
Yep, I'm definitely in for a flame with this one...
My least favourite hero.... Matthias of Redwall.
What was wrong with Matthias? He was a great hero!
He was way too young and too nice :-X
Quote from: Romsca on April 05, 2013, 11:56:23 PM
He was way too young and too nice :-X
There is no such thing as too young or too nice, Rollo was an infant, so was the mousebabe.
As far as least favorite hero.... Probably what's her face the boxing hare, the one from Eulalia. I hated her, only actual "bad" thing about her was her temper, and she is always portrayed as justified in that. Made me mad... Mad Maudie! That was it!
I liked her...sort of
Quote from: Taggerung The Otter on November 08, 2011, 08:59:09 PM
the fat dude who was Rakkety Tam's friend ::)
SERIOUSLY?????
Wild Doogy Plum was pretty funny, as well as being a good fighter.
Matthias and Basil Stag Hare
WHAT!? HOW DARE YOU!!!!
JK, but Matthias and Basil were awesome!
Quote from: Redwaller on April 11, 2013, 08:47:31 PM
WHAT!? HOW DARE YOU!!!!
JK, but Matthias and Basil were awesome!
I believe the same! They were some of the best hero's in the Redwall series!
Yeah, Basil was probably the best hare in the series. Well, maybe not, not but he was still great!
I just don't like them.
Quote from: Vilu Daskar on April 12, 2013, 11:39:21 PM
I just don't like them.
Well, we all have our own opinions, even if we tend to disagree with each others alot.
Buckler and Tammo are the but Hares
Quote from: Vilu Daskar on April 12, 2013, 11:58:46 PM
Buckler and Tammo are the but Hares
Yea, they are probubly my favourite Hares as well.
Yes the hares are one of my favorite species, my favorite being otters.
Those are my favorites too! ;)
I didn't like Mattimeo he was "weak" in my opinion and he was some what of a brat.
The same with me
Hey, guys you should be more nicer! I know a few people named Sue...
I must say my least favorite hero was probably Trisscar Swordmaid. She actually used to be my favorite but then I reread Triss. I think she was something of a Sue. ;D :D
Quote from: Martin the warrior on April 30, 2013, 01:11:16 AM
I didn't like Mattimeo he was "weak" in my opinion and he was some what of a brat.
I've got to agree with you on that.
I knew I shouldn't have read this thread. It hurts to think about why you don't like particular aspects of stories that you know you like as complete units...
And I think I'm basically with Osu on this:
Quote from: Osu on March 31, 2012, 10:57:13 PM
As a rule, I love every character for whatever reason.
Well, o.k. I don't love every character, but I don't really have a profound dislike for any of them, either. With that said, so long as I'm here... yeah... Tiria Wildlough. Hmm. A lot of it isn't even so much her fault as a character; she just doesn't seem to get to be the initiator of a lot of things.
"Hey, dad, I need to get to an island."
"Yep. Let me take you to Log-a-log."
"Hey, Tiria; nice sling!"
"Thanks, Log-a-log!"
"Let me take you to Blandale Frunk..."
"Sure!"
"Who are you, miss otter?"
"Well, to be fair... who are you... at least, at the moment?"
"I'm, uh... Heh. I guess I'll be an otter, too."
"Nifty."
"Let me take you to Mandoral High Peak."
"Sweet!"
"Oh. It's you."
"What do you mean, lord Mandoral?"
"Well, you see, seasons ago, Urthwyte finished this set of armor for an otter queen, and it's been waiting for her successor to come take it."
"Oh, o.k."
"Blanedale, will you take her to her ancestrial Holt?"
"Who's Blanedale? Er... Yes!"
"Hey! Our queen's here! And look, our enemy's wife is burning down the castle for us!"
"YYYAAAAAAAY!"
"Er... what about that sea monster who lives here?"
"Don't worry, Tiria; I've got this! But first, let me feed the rest of the cat's army to him..."
"That's really not neces... oh, poor Blanedale."
I enjoyed High Rhulian, as I've enjoyed every Redwall book. And I distinctly remember after I finished with it feeling bummed because the story was over and there was nothing more for me to do with it. And I've noticed that a great number of users on here
love the book and its central character. I'm a bit jealous, because I prefer to enjoy things than to not. But for all of that, I feel like I was picking up on the things I wasn't sure about with Tiria even while I was reading the story.
And... partially to assure everyone that I think they have the right to enjoy whichever characters they choose, and partly because my jaw drops a little lower every time I read somebody bringing him up in here--
I am a
huge fan of Deyna the Taggerung. I understand he has a lot of the same qualities that people knock Tiria for, but for me, a lot of Deyna's awesomeness comes from the context of the story he's in, much like a lot of my problems with Tiria come from the context of her story.
Brian Jacques sets up in
Taggerung something unusual for his books. The central (in a sense) villain gets exactly what he wants from the very beginning of the story. Sawney Rath comes by Redwall with only one, small purpose: to steal Deyna. And he gets Deyna.
The entire rest of the story is focused on fixing what got broken when he did that. And, from Jacques' exploration of Filorn and Mhera (and Cregga, guiding them through), I think he shows that what Sawney Rath did wasn't actually "small" at all. So the entire book is incredibly intimate, small-scale, personal. A family gets hurt--deeply hurt. Now, how do they move on?
So, I think the fact that Deyna knows right from wrong in spite of where he grew up was not meant to make Jacques' storytelling job easier ("How do I get Deyna out of the vermin band?... oh... he's just... born that way...") but was meant to stress something about the nature of good itself. Jacques believed profoundly that good was always set to win.
It can be argued quite reasonably, of course, that good could have won
later, after Deyna struggled for chapters and chapters with it. But from my perspective, a lot of it comes down to the fact that Sawney Rath wanted Deyna to commit something as pitch black as murder--if Deyna had gone down that path, good might have still won in him eventually, but it would have been so... tarnished. And that would have been fine and could have been written into wonderful explorations of good vs. evil in other stories, but I really don't think that was Jacques' style, ever. I feel like... he would have seen Deyna committing murder as a huge loss.
And yet again, it could seem incredibly convenient, then, that Jacques chose to put the choice of "murder or no murder" in his character's path. So it's not too swift for Deyna to choose not to commit murder, but his being presented with that choice happens far too early in the story. I would say to this that Brian Jacques had already been a bit lenient in the other direction. What I mean is, he writes that Deyna grew up with Sawney's vermin band for an entire 15 seasons, and within his story, he already delays the choice of murder in those 15 seasons when he explicitly writes out that "the seasons had been good and relatively peaceful, with hardly any killing raids or tribal strife." I think the indication is (probably) that whatever few killing raids did happen, Deyna must have been too young to kill in them anyways.
If the seasons had not been so peaceful (uncharacteristically peaceful?), then Deyna would have been forced to make that choice even sooner.
I should also point out that Brian Jacques' choice to write Deyna as, in a sense, inherently good does show him to be consistent with his own philosophy of character. Deyna is an opposite version of Veil--where Deyna was born to Redwallers and raised by vermin, Veil was born to vermin and raised by Redwallers. And Veil ends up choosing a very dark path. In fact, it's the crossroads of murder again. Deyna throws himself out of the Juskarath when he won't kill. Veil gets kicked out Redwall when he tries to kill.
As for the rest... Deyna's incredible strength, fighting ability and reflexes... it is all very much a matter of opinion, and I understand where readers think that he is overpowered. I see it like this:
Deyna is taught from birth how to fight and to track--and not just like a regular vermin, but as the clan's specialized warrior. Deyna's fighting ability was given to him very deliberately.
As for strength and reflexes, there are explanations for these. He may be the inheritor of a very strong genetic line. I can imagine he had the desire to work at building his strength and his reflexes much like he would have had to have practiced anything else (like the fighting abilities). And it might also have been really important that he was told what he was going to be capable of growing up. Deyna never really had any reason to doubt himself.
But approaching this from a character-writing perspective, Deyna's capabilities seem to me to be in line with the same sort of ideas that put Martin the mouse drowning Tsarmina the cat or Rakkety Tam the squirrel beheading Gulo the wolverine. It's... the power of "good" again, I think. Deyna's father was murdered, he was ripped from his family, and his sister and mother were left alone wondering if he and Rillflag weren't
both dead. So, if the whole drive of the novel from that point on is to fix that one tragedy, then there wasn't going to be a thing in all of Mossflower that could stop Deyna from getting back to where he belonged.
Which also means that, for me, Deyna's admittedly incredible talents come off as a triumph rather than poor writing. If he and his family were going to be so badly hurt, then there does seem to have been something very good that came out of it. Deyna came out stronger than he probably ever would have if grew up at the Abbey; he becomes a powerful warrior through the experience of tragedy. And that works for me. That's partly why I love that Brian Jacques almost hyper-extended the novel with the introduction of Ruggan Bor. As soon as Deyna is restored to his family, he is called to lead Redwall Abbey against another, powerful threat. ...Not that I mind Russano coming up with the Long Patrol just as things are about to get ugly.
And it's not just Deyna who comes out of tragedy better! Mhera leans on Cregga, and Cregga's first piece of advice for getting through her sorrow is to help her mother. It's also really interesting that Filorn totally picks up on the fact that Mhera's trying to be strong for her, and she tries to stay strong back by joining her in setting up a massive feast for everyone. And it works for everyone else--they love the feast. But Mhera and Filorn were the ones who were actually hurting, and they both break down soon enough, and Cregga comes to them again, and from that point on, they seem to live with their burden. How much of the personality we see in Mhera from that point on was born in her and how much she learns instead by standing through suffering I can't say for sure. But whatever the case, she does eventually grow up to be the Abbess that Redwall was missing before she was ever even born. Meanwhile, Filorn becomes a subtle leader in her own right. She eases tensions in the Abbey, especially where Boorab is concerned, and she puts herself in a position where she could probably take over the kitchens if she needed to. And, near the end, when Deyna finally comes back to the Abbey wounded, it is
she who sees him for who he actually is.
If it isn't obvious, I flipping
love this book. I think it was one of Brian Jacques' most powerful statements on his belief in the absolute, unstoppable... well, power, of good over evil. Deyna could
not be kept from his family. As such, I can't really dislike Deyna.
Comparing my "assessment" of Tiria with my opinion on Deyna, yes--I think this is all somewhat subjective. And I don't want to detract from those who enjoy Tiria's character--like I said, I envy you all, because I prefer to enjoy things. And I'm betting someone could defend her the same way I've defended Deyna.
But I did want to get my opinion out there.
Now... somebody mentioned not liking Sunflash the Mace, either. That's your right, that's your right. But maybe that's a discussion for another day...
Quote from: Martin the warrior on April 30, 2013, 01:11:16 AM
I didn't like Mattimeo he was "weak" in my opinion and he was some what of a brat.
Agreed. I didn't care for him in the t.v series. In the book, he's just ok to me, but I don't pay attention to him in the book.
I liked Matti but he didn't deserve it until he grew up. I think Tess, Cheek, and Jess were the best characters in Mattimeo.
Orlando the Axe was my personal favorite, but I also liked Tim the mouse.
Quote from: Mask on May 06, 2013, 01:43:33 PM
I liked Matti but he didn't deserve it until he grew up. I think Tess, Cheek, and Jess were the best characters in Mattimeo.
Great choices. I really like them too
I don't really like a character that much if they're a Mary Sue.
From the books I've read;
Triss
When you're title character feels more like a supporting character, that's a problem...
Tiria
When the main character isn't as likable or interesting as everyone else in the story that's also a problem!
Gorath
I swear, the starring Badgers seemed to get worse... :-\
And while I've yet to read "Pearls of Lutra" (though I SO intend to), Martin 2 doesn't sound very good.
Quote from: PluggFiretail on May 13, 2013, 02:13:35 AM
I don't really like a character that much if they're a Mary Sue.
Please, NOEBODY say that Laterose was Mary Sue...
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on October 30, 2013, 02:40:09 AM
Quote from: PluggFiretail on May 13, 2013, 02:13:35 AM
I don't really like a character that much if they're a Mary Sue.
Please, NOEBODY say that Laterose was Mary Sue...
Amen!
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on October 30, 2013, 02:40:09 AM
Quote from: PluggFiretail on May 13, 2013, 02:13:35 AM
I don't really like a character that much if they're a Mary Sue.
Please, NOEBODY say that Laterose was Mary Sue...
But she was!
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on October 31, 2013, 01:08:25 AM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on October 30, 2013, 02:40:09 AM
Quote from: PluggFiretail on May 13, 2013, 02:13:35 AM
I don't really like a character that much if they're a Mary Sue.
Please, NOEBODY say that Laterose was Mary Sue...
But she was!
The term for Mary Sue has broadened until virtually any strong, independent female character is a Sue. I've met people in real life who were a lot like Rose and have yet to be accused of Suedom. XD In any case, Laterose wasn't a Sue. She wasn't very powerful, nor did it ever say she was a great fighter. She ran at Badrang in the Battle of Marshank and lost. A real Sue wouldn't have lost against Badrang. She would've used her awesome beauty and rainbow powers to convert him into the light!!
Ahem. With that being said, I can't really say I've ever particularly disliked a hero in Redwall but if I HAD to choose a least favorite, I would have to go with Tiria.
My least favorite heroes has too be...
Mariel- I didn't really like her much, I thought she was kind of annoying.
Taria- Even though I don't like throwing the word Mary Sue around, I have to say she was one. Just like what everyone else has said, Taria was too perfect.
Lonna Bowstripe- I don't remember much of him from Loamhedge because I never really paid attention to his story. I just found him arrogant and uninteresting.
Quote from: Starla1431 on October 31, 2013, 12:14:12 PM
My least favorite heroes has too be...
Mariel- I didn't really like her much, I thought she was kind of annoying.
Taria- Even though I don't like throwing the word Mary Sue around, I have to say she was one. Just like what everyone else has said, Taria was too perfect.
Lonna Bowstripe- I don't remember much of him from Loamhedge because I never really paid attention to his story. I just found him arrogant and uninteresting.
I liked Lomhedge
Quote from: Vilu Daskar on April 11, 2013, 06:04:19 PM
Matthias and Basil Stag Hare
preach it my brother! ... well apart from basil. i loved basil.
but matthias! man! what an unpleasant individual. the shrews followed him, clothed him, protected him while he slept and how did he thank them? ... he ate the food they made and left without so much as a good morning.
Quote from: naima on October 31, 2013, 11:48:48 PM
Quote from: Vilu Daskar on April 11, 2013, 06:04:19 PM
Matthias and Basil Stag Hare
preach it my brother! ... well apart from basil. i loved basil.
but matthias! man! what an unpleasant individual. the shrews followed him, clothed him, protected him while he slept and how did he thank them? ... he ate the food they made and left without so much as a good morning.
what a *****
Naima, please no cussing.
Quote from: Aldeneg on October 31, 2013, 05:29:27 AM
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on October 31, 2013, 01:08:25 AM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on October 30, 2013, 02:40:09 AM
Quote from: PluggFiretail on May 13, 2013, 02:13:35 AM
I don't really like a character that much if they're a Mary Sue.
Please, NOEBODY say that Laterose was Mary Sue...
But she was!
The term for Mary Sue has broadened until virtually any strong, independent female character is a Sue. I've met people in real life who were a lot like Rose and have yet to be accused of Suedom. XD In any case, Laterose wasn't a Sue. She wasn't very powerful, nor did it ever say she was a great fighter. She ran at Badrang in the Battle of Marshank and lost. A real Sue wouldn't have lost against Badrang. She would've used her awesome beauty and rainbow powers to convert him into the light!!
Ahem. With that being said, I can't really say I've ever particularly disliked a hero in Redwall but if I HAD to choose a least favorite, I would have to go with Tiria.
If you like Rose, I have no problem with that. I just have a problem with Rose in general. As you can see, I
really don't like her.
I guess it's just that she came across (to me) as way too typical. She was your typical love-interest character, with nothing too exciting outside of this stereotype.
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on November 04, 2013, 01:44:16 AM
Quote from: Aldeneg on October 31, 2013, 05:29:27 AM
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on October 31, 2013, 01:08:25 AM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on October 30, 2013, 02:40:09 AM
Quote from: PluggFiretail on May 13, 2013, 02:13:35 AM
I don't really like a character that much if they're a Mary Sue.
Please, NOEBODY say that Laterose was Mary Sue...
But she was!
The term for Mary Sue has broadened until virtually any strong, independent female character is a Sue. I've met people in real life who were a lot like Rose and have yet to be accused of Suedom. XD In any case, Laterose wasn't a Sue. She wasn't very powerful, nor did it ever say she was a great fighter. She ran at Badrang in the Battle of Marshank and lost. A real Sue wouldn't have lost against Badrang. She would've used her awesome beauty and rainbow powers to convert him into the light!!
Ahem. With that being said, I can't really say I've ever particularly disliked a hero in Redwall but if I HAD to choose a least favorite, I would have to go with Tiria.
If you like Rose, I have no problem with that. I just have a problem with Rose in general. As you can see, I really don't like her.
I guess it's just that she came across (to me) as way too typical. She was your typical love-interest character, with nothing too exciting outside of this stereotype.
Likewise, I have no problem if people don't like Rose. I just prefer them not to band her as a Mary Sue. But I can see your point. She is rather stereotypical. :)
Quote from: naima on October 31, 2013, 11:48:48 PM
Quote from: Vilu Daskar on April 11, 2013, 06:04:19 PM
Matthias and Basil Stag Hare
preach it my brother! ... well apart from basil. i loved basil.
but matthias! man! what an unpleasant individual. the shrews followed him, clothed him, protected him while he slept and how did he thank them? ... he ate the food they made and left without so much as a good morning.
Of course we're taking into account that this WAS Brian's first book riiiiiight? ;) I think that we should give him some leeway on the first couple because he didn't have much experience in the field at the time.
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on October 31, 2013, 01:08:25 AM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on October 30, 2013, 02:40:09 AM
Quote from: PluggFiretail on May 13, 2013, 02:13:35 AM
I don't really like a character that much if they're a Mary Sue.
Please, NOEBODY say that Laterose was Mary Sue...
But she was!
But she SO HECKN' wasn't! What was one fact about Rose that made her a Mary Sue?
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on November 04, 2013, 03:31:59 AM
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on October 31, 2013, 01:08:25 AM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on October 30, 2013, 02:40:09 AM
Quote from: PluggFiretail on May 13, 2013, 02:13:35 AM
I don't really like a character that much if they're a Mary Sue.
Please, NOEBODY say that Laterose was Mary Sue...
But she was!
But she SO HECKN' wasn't! What was one fact about Rose that made her a Mary Sue?
-Overly beautiful.
-Typical tragic death of the beautiful love interest.
-Can charm bees (of all creatures!) with her perfect singing.
-Can talk to birds when nobody else can and they automatically obey her.
Seriously, though, that thing with the bees has always bothered me. Really, Brian?!
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on November 04, 2013, 10:15:25 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on November 04, 2013, 03:31:59 AM
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on October 31, 2013, 01:08:25 AM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on October 30, 2013, 02:40:09 AM
Quote from: PluggFiretail on May 13, 2013, 02:13:35 AM
I don't really like a character that much if they're a Mary Sue.
Please, NOEBODY say that Laterose was Mary Sue...
But she was!
But she SO HECKN' wasn't! What was one fact about Rose that made her a Mary Sue?
-Overly beautiful.
-Typical tragic death of the beautiful love interest.
-Can charm bees (of all creatures!) with her perfect singing.
-Can talk to birds when nobody else can and they automatically obey her.
Seriously, though, that thing with the bees has always bothered me. Really, Brian?!
It never said that Rose was overly beautiful. Here death wasn't intended for a "beautiful love intrest" because BJ would never put something that mature in a Redwall storie. Sure, the whole thing about Rose singing to the bees was pretty ridiculous, but the section were Rose started talking to that bird never stated the Rose was the only person who could talk to birds and make them obey her.
I think that our dear friend Doogy is taking a few too many, "facts," from the TV version. The book doesn't mention Rose's appearance very much, her death was frighteningly sudden and unpredictable (though I still don't believe in her, "death." :P) more than typical. The bee thing is a little far fetched, but bees ARE calmed by smoke, so why not singing? When did Rose talk to a bird?
Quote from: danflorreguba on November 05, 2013, 12:13:07 AM
I think that our dear friend Doogy is taking a few too many, "facts," from the TV version. The book doesn't mention Rose's appearance very much, her death was frighteningly sudden and unpredictable (though I still don't believe in her, "death." :P) more than typical. The bee thing is a little far fetched, but bees ARE calmed by smoke, so why not singing? When did Rose talk to a bird?
When they [Martin and Co] were captured by those lizards, Rose talked to a Wren (?) to go get help from the warden.
In the book, it is true that Rose is never mentioned as "beautiful". Even in the TV series, she dosn't look that nice.
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on November 05, 2013, 12:56:49 AM
Quote from: danflorreguba on November 05, 2013, 12:13:07 AM
I think that our dear friend Doogy is taking a few too many, "facts," from the TV version. The book doesn't mention Rose's appearance very much, her death was frighteningly sudden and unpredictable (though I still don't believe in her, "death." :P) more than typical. The bee thing is a little far fetched, but bees ARE calmed by smoke, so why not singing? When did Rose talk to a bird?
When they [Martin and Co] were captured by those lizards, Rose talked to a Wren (?) to go get help from the warden.
In the book, it is true that Rose is never mentioned as "beautiful". Even in the TV series, she dosn't look that nice.
"[Martin] stared silently into the most gentle hazel eyes that ever reflected starlight, lost for words as a quiet smile spread over the mousemaid's serene features." (Chpt 7)
I will admit that maybe I'm taking this too far - I just really don't like Rose. And I'll also admit that the above passage is a bit biased because it's through Martin's lovestruck eyes.
Actually, the bird is a dipper. But same difference. :)
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on November 05, 2013, 01:05:20 AM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on November 05, 2013, 12:56:49 AM
Quote from: danflorreguba on November 05, 2013, 12:13:07 AM
I think that our dear friend Doogy is taking a few too many, "facts," from the TV version. The book doesn't mention Rose's appearance very much, her death was frighteningly sudden and unpredictable (though I still don't believe in her, "death." :P) more than typical. The bee thing is a little far fetched, but bees ARE calmed by smoke, so why not singing? When did Rose talk to a bird?
When they [Martin and Co] were captured by those lizards, Rose talked to a Wren (?) to go get help from the warden.
In the book, it is true that Rose is never mentioned as "beautiful". Even in the TV series, she dosn't look that nice.
"[Martin] stared silently into the most gentle hazel eyes that ever reflected starlight, lost for words as a quiet smile spread over the mousemaid's serene features." (Chpt 7)
I will admit that maybe I'm taking this too far - I just really don't like Rose. And I'll also admit that the above passage is a bit biased because it's through Martin's lovestruck eyes.
Actually, the bird is a dipper. But same difference. :)
Well, feelings for a certain person change from person to person. It is sorta obviouse that Martin liked Rose, but that passage is probably just one person's feelings.
Wow, for the life of me I just can't remember her talking to a bird. ::) Besides, pretty much every bird in the series was able to be talked to and even talk back anyway, so why should Rose not be allowed to talk to one?
Also, take notice of the adjectives, and just what they are describing. First he goes for the eyes, not that big of a deal, eyes are pretty awesome by nature anyway. ::) And secondly, the describing word used with features is, "serene." Serene means something more along the lines of peaceful or graceful than they do Beautiful or pretty. Granted, they do imply a certain since of beauty, but its not the, "Oh my gosh she's gorgeous!" Kind of thing. IN CONCLUSION ( so you can skip the gigantic explanation if you don't like reading that stuff :D): The book doesn't truly mention whether or not Rose is pretty, it just gives some basis to believe that she's lovable, the rest is filled in by the imagination.
Side Note: And we only wishing the best for Martin tend to fill in the gap with something that we view as Beautiful. ;)
The weird thing with this bird was, Rose pretty much translated its speech to everyone else, and Martin had to ask her if she could understand it. Implying that he and the others couldn't. It's in chapter 21, just so you know.
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on November 05, 2013, 08:28:49 PM
The weird thing with this bird was, Rose pretty much translated its speech to everyone else, and Martin had to ask her if she could understand it. Implying that he and the others couldn't. It's in chapter 21, just so you know.
I'll check that chapter next time I go to the library, just to make sure...
Read it.
It's just because Rose was the only one that could here him. She literally told them that he was saying, "Ganna aitcha." (gonna eat you) And then she was the one that guessed at what he was saying first.
That's not at all a case of Mary Sueism, it's just a matter of proximity. ;)
Quote from: danflorreguba on November 06, 2013, 12:58:55 AM
Read it.
It's just because Rose was the only one that could here him. She literally told them that he was saying, "Ganna aitcha." (gonna eat you) And then she was the one that guessed at what he was saying first.
That's not at all a case of Mary Sueism, it's just a matter of proximity. ;)
My point exactly. It can be considered just as Mary-Suish as some of Cornflower's actions were, and Cornflower wasn't a Mary Sue at all!
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on November 06, 2013, 01:01:53 AM
Quote from: danflorreguba on November 06, 2013, 12:58:55 AM
Read it.
It's just because Rose was the only one that could here him. She literally told them that he was saying, "Ganna aitcha." (gonna eat you) And then she was the one that guessed at what he was saying first.
That's not at all a case of Mary Sueism, it's just a matter of proximity. ;)
My point exactly. It can be considered just as Mary-Suish as some of Cornflower's actions were, and Cornflower wasn't a Mary Sue at all!
*Realizes own post was actually about Tess* ::) oops, sorry.
I kind of confused Cornflower with Tess.
Quote from: danflorreguba on November 06, 2013, 01:05:15 AM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on November 06, 2013, 01:01:53 AM
Quote from: danflorreguba on November 06, 2013, 12:58:55 AM
Read it.
It's just because Rose was the only one that could here him. She literally told them that he was saying, "Ganna aitcha." (gonna eat you) And then she was the one that guessed at what he was saying first.
That's not at all a case of Mary Sueism, it's just a matter of proximity. ;)
My point exactly. It can be considered just as Mary-Suish as some of Cornflower's actions were, and Cornflower wasn't a Mary Sue at all!
*Realizes own post was actually about Tess* ::) oops, sorry.
I kind of confused Cornflower with Tess.
Ach... ;D
I never liked Tammo. I'm sorry, I just didn't. I guess hares weren't made to be protagonists.
for me, it was tansy. SHE WAS SOOOO ANNOYING :P
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on November 04, 2013, 11:01:22 PM
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on November 04, 2013, 10:15:25 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on November 04, 2013, 03:31:59 AM
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on October 31, 2013, 01:08:25 AM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on October 30, 2013, 02:40:09 AM
Quote from: PluggFiretail on May 13, 2013, 02:13:35 AM
I don't really like a character that much if they're a Mary Sue.
Please, NOEBODY say that Laterose was Mary Sue...
But she was!
But she SO HECKN' wasn't! What was one fact about Rose that made her a Mary Sue?
-Overly beautiful.
-Typical tragic death of the beautiful love interest.
-Can charm bees (of all creatures!) with her perfect singing.
-Can talk to birds when nobody else can and they automatically obey her.
Seriously, though, that thing with the bees has always bothered me. Really, Brian?!
It never said that Rose was overly beautiful. Here death wasn't intended for a "beautiful love intrest" because BJ would never put something that mature in a Redwall storie. Sure, the whole thing about Rose singing to the bees was pretty ridiculous, but the section were Rose started talking to that bird never stated the Rose was the only person who could talk to birds and make them obey her.
I don't usually post when I see these least favorite topics because I don't understand the point of complaining about things I like, but I saw this and just wanted to point out that singing creatures to sleep is pretty common in fiction. Think about Fluffy from
Harry Potter (which is a reference itself to Orpheus and Cerberus), Tom Bombadil sings Old Man Willow to sleep in
The Lord of the Rings, and I just got into
Doctor Who and the
Christmas Carol episode featured a girl whose voice was the right pitch to resonate with the ice crystals in the air to calm the Fish.
Quote from: Gonff the Mousethief on December 31, 2013, 05:58:07 AM
for me, it was tansy. SHE WAS SOOOO ANNOYING :P
IKR!!! She was a whiner and just plain annoying all the time!
When she was abbess, while being trapped in the kotir cave, she just laied down and made everyone do the work
Well there she was also caring for Craklyn so that wasn't all her fault.
Probably Silent Sam even though he wasn't much of a hero I never heard him talk. (I've only read Redwall so I don't know if he talks later in the series or not. So far in Mattimeo he has not talked)
Quote from: i am that is (Matthias) on January 02, 2014, 01:31:06 AM
Probably Silent Sam even though he wasn't much of a hero I never heard him talk. (I've only read Redwall so I don't know if he talks later in the series or not. So far in Mattimeo he has not talked)
He talks plenty in Mattimeo actually...he is a lot older by then too.
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on January 02, 2014, 01:32:24 AM
Quote from: i am that is (Matthias) on January 02, 2014, 01:31:06 AM
Probably Silent Sam even though he wasn't much of a hero I never heard him talk. (I've only read Redwall so I don't know if he talks later in the series or not. So far in Mattimeo he has not talked)
He talks plenty in Mattimeo actually...he is a lot older by then too.
He becomes Motormouth in
Mattimeo JK ;D
I have to say, I didn't really like Dandin much. Basically a rerun of Gnoff, who was so much better.
Although I don't dislike Deyna, I was a little disappointed when I read The Taggerung. I had heard a little about it before I had read it, this amazing otter warrior, who was on the bad side! It was gonna be such a good story. And it kinda fell flat, how he converted so unnaturally to the "good side". I mean, couldn't there at least be conflict within him? Seriously?
I have to say Tarquin and Arven. I actually like Martin the second.
Mattimeo, probably. He improved (slightly) by the end, but for most of the book, I really didn't like him.
Quote from: Booklover on March 27, 2020, 03:33:46 PM
Mattimeo, probably. He improved (slightly) by the end, but for most of the book, I really didn't like him.
Oh yah! I hated Mattimeo, he was a jerk.
Quote from: Orinoco on October 22, 2012, 10:01:15 PM
"Martha Braebuck grew up an extremely bright young creature with a thirst for knowledge. She was a formidable reader and scholar, the equal even of the venerated mouse, Sister Portula, Redwall's Abbey Recorder. Martha could solve riddles and equations, write poems, ballads and even sing. According to popular opinion, she had the sweetest singing voice ever heard within the Abbey walls. She never complained about being chairbound, and was invariably cheerful and willing to help others. The maid was a welcome and useful member of the Redwall Abbey community." ~ Loamhedge, page 17
Ugh, Martha. She was definitely a Sue. Everyone is falling over each other to help her with everything since the day she arrived, like that ottercook (what was his name?) who made a wheelchair for her, and she acts very gracious to them the whole time. Although she's only twelve, she's allowed to participate in the elders's discussions, and a lot of decisions aren't carried through without her permission, she comes up with most of the ideas, she's allowed to talk down to Springald for being rude to the Abbot (who probably didn't hear the mouse's remark anyways), and everyone likes her. And throughout the book, she never does anything wrong, nor is she scolded for anything. Ever.
Another character I don't like is Grath Longfletch. Sure, her family was murdered by corsairs, but does that mean she can hunt them all down, one by one, endangering her friends's lives, and (most likely) killing some creatures who never took part in the Holt Lutra massacre? Seriously. Killing others to get revenge doesn't fix anything. And the other goodbeasts don't see anything wrong with that- to them, the only good vermin is a dead vermin. She could have gone and killed Ublaz instead of wasting her time running after Romsca's ship, or she could have gone to the Abbey to help them search for the Pearls, or she could have made a plan to rescue Durral and Viola. There are plenty of other things she could have done, that were more useful. I don't like it when a hero's family and/or friends are murdered by a band of vermin, and then they go after that band, and then make it their life's ambition to kill every last vermin they see, for that murder. I know they're upset and all, but it would be simpler to kill the main warlord or captain, because they were the ones who ordered their army to kill those woodlanders. After that, the army would disband, and the surviving woodlander could move on with their life.
Mattimeo and Triss.
Yeah, I said Arven and Tarquin last time, but looking back I really kind of despise Trisscar Swordmaid. She was just so very uninteresting.
Not sure why she gets so much hate - maybe she wasn't super interesting, but just 'average' i'd say is better than some I can think of