In my opinion outcast is the best book because of the unique plot two Redwallers Barony and Toggert chasing after a vermin Veil who had tried to poison "Germin gift" one of their own, but they chase him not for revenge but to live with him in his banishment. Also unique is a badger lord with a sidekick Sunflash the mace and Skarlath the hawk, as well as telling the story of how Swartt Sixclaw acquired his army and of his son's mission to find his dad and to gain control of his dad's army. Tell me what you think about this great book. Plus it has some of the best songs of the series home returning and gates of spring ;D
Outcast of Redwall is an interesting paradox for me. On the one hand, I enjoy the story and characters (Swartt being one of my favourite villains of the series), but on the other, it exemplifies everything I don't like about the Redwall series. While Veil's character is handled much better than his counterpart, Tagg, it's still a really poorly developed and nonsensical idea. I have never been okay with series that feature species that are just evil by nature, and Redwall is one of the worst offenders, which is one of the many reasons I've fallen out of love with the series over the years. Outcast's discussion of the nature vs. nurture debate is childish at best, and it is not something I'm willing to suspend my disbelief for. Although if it weren't for the final conclusion of the book, then I might have considered it a decent exploration of the idea of the self-fulfilling prophecy (i.e. Veil was expected to be evil by the woodlanders, so through their treatment and expectations, that is what he becomes) but as is, it's just poorly handled. Though Veil himself, despite Jacques' logistical flaws, is still an interesting character. Skarlath is also one of my favourites.
In Mariel of Redwall there was a searat who killed his captain and then surrendered to the Redwallers he then lived at Redwall and built boats for dibbuns to use on the pond.
I'm aware. This doesn't change the fact that 99% of "vermin" in the series are just evil by nature.
And actually, that was The Bellmaker, not Mariel.
Quote from: Nadaz, voice of the host on November 26, 2017, 12:38:28 PM
In Mariel of Redwall there was a searat who killed his captain and then surrendered to the Redwallers he then lived at Redwall and built boats for dibbuns to use on the pond.
I think that was Blaggut, right?
Outcast had a really cool spin on things. I'd never seen a character be formally banished from the Abbey and it was pretty cool to see it happen. It gives you a glimpse at the culture they had. The idea that Veil just couldn't get it right, one event after another, kept me on my toes and
hoping that he would have some change of heart or prove himself. You never really do know what goes on in his head.
Skarlath and Sunflash were one of my very favorite pairs in the whole series (second maybe to Sarobando and Bragoon from
Loamhedge). I mean how cool is it to see a golden badger and a hawk taking on some baddies and coming out on top! As I recall, Skarlath does not live. How did that happen again? I don't quite remember.
Swartt's vixen seer shoots him with a poisoned arrow when Sunflash is chasing Swartt
I've already given my thoughts on Outcast way back (http://www.redwallabbey.com/forum/index.php?topic=7445.msg411829#msg411829), but to repeat, even reading this book as a kid, I remember finding it somewhat... Disappointing. The title, cover, and plot summary it gave me all implied a much more interesting story than what I got. Veil just didn't have the kind of moral struggle or arc that I'd hoped he'd have, and he ultimately wasn't even all that important; the book is named for him, but he ends up feeling more like the B-plot.
That said, I did still enjoy Sunflash and Skarlath (the actual main characters). If I get around to rereading this one, I'll try my best to think of it as purely Sunflash's story, because that's what it really is.
I somewhat agree but I like the fact it breaks some stereotypes a not completely evil vermin and intolerant Redwallers. Also I'm not sure what cover your copy has but I know of at least 2 different covers one shows Veil peeking out between the leaves of a bush, the other shows Sunflash with Skarlath on his arm and his mace in his other hand. I prefer the Sunflash cover because although Veil is the book's namesake it is really Sunflash's story. Even if it did not live up to its name the book is a nice change of pace from the other books with their repetitive plots.
Quote from: SoranMBane on November 26, 2017, 04:31:05 PM
the book is named for him, but he ends up feeling more like the B-plot.
What a great way of putting it.
Honestly, I'm pretty sure 90% of the time I think of the book, in terms of its place in the series, it's about Sunflash and Skarlath, and I think of it as a more Salamanastron-centered book, like Eulalia or Salamandastron, than in terms of the Abbey. Maybe that's just selective memory, though.
Okay so Veil was featured in only the last two-thirds of the book and I prefer to think of it as a book about Sunflash but the parts that talk about Veil are very unique and fun to read. I do wish he had been in the early part of the book so we could have seen him growing up at the abbey, it would have probably given us more insight into who Veil was and what caused him to do what he did.
Quote from: Captain Tammo on November 26, 2017, 02:13:53 PM
Quote from: Nadaz, voice of the host on November 26, 2017, 12:38:28 PM
In Mariel of Redwall there was a searat who killed his captain and then surrendered to the Redwallers he then lived at Redwall and built boats for dibbuns to use on the pond.
I think that was Blaggut, right?
Outcast had a really cool spin on things. I'd never seen a character be formally banished from the Abbey and it was pretty cool to see it happen. It gives you a glimpse at the culture they had. The idea that Veil just couldn't get it right, one event after another, kept me on my toes and hoping that he would have some change of heart or prove himself. You never really do know what goes on in his head.
Skarlath and Sunflash were one of my very favorite pairs in the whole series (second maybe to Sarobando and Bragoon from Loamhedge). I mean how cool is it to see a golden badger and a hawk taking on some baddies and coming out on top! As I recall, Skarlath does not live. How did that happen again? I don't quite remember.
I believe Blaggut was in the Bellmaker
I haven't read all the books. I read Mossflower, Taggerung, Redwall, Mattimeo, Martin the Warrior, Outcast of Redwall and Marlfox. Out of those Outcast is my 2nd-3rd? favorite. Don't get me wrong-I loved it.
So my opinion about it:
I came in wanting to read about a conflicted ferret banished from Redwall, oh yeah!
Then I read about Sunflash and Skarlath, they were cool and all-but I wanted the grey ferret!
Then Veil himself was a disappointment. Morally complex? Jacques went out of his way to make him dislike able even by vermin standards. In not one scene until his death, did I get the feeling he was confused/grey/having an identity crisis ironic considering that's what I came in expecting. Another thing that bugs me: why is Byrony so adamant about Veil having good in him, considering he did absolutely nothing good? He came out as singularly bad, but Byrony kept going on about him having some good in him.
And then when he finally does do something good- she writes him off as evil?
I have spent countless hours reading that book, and I loved it, but as refreshing as it was the Veil plot didn't live up to the simpleness of the world. I'm also disappointed Brian didn't try to expand on the moral ambiguity he developed here -if it can be called such. It was great and refreshing and I loved it- buuut it didn't live up to my expectations, so probably just shy of top billing.
No I hated it. I would say that the first one was the best.
First why do you hate it, second when you say first book do you mean Redwall or lord Brocktree, and if the book is so bad why did you choose the book's main character for your username? ???
yes it is I was wrong
on rereading outcast I must say that it is the best book in the series second best would be redwall. Sorry friends for saying something about a book that I have not read much about yet :(
Flash on
Please don't double post if you forgot to say something than please hit the modify button please.🙂
Honestly, Outcast has been one of my least favorite from the first time I've read it. Jaques attempted too many different things at once (such as Veil being raised at Redwall, the villain not really attacking a specific group, that one hare.... you know who I'm talking about -_-). Bryony annoyed me from the moment she showed up even though her style of character shouldn't elicit such a response. As the story continued, she felt like a ditz chasing after a fools passion with no solid reason to do so. The end was also terrible, there's no finality to it at all! The entire book is based around the concepts of vermin morality, and Veil didn't give any solid indication one way or another what he had become which really leaves the entire fan base stuck as to what they should think about the vermin vs. woodlander morality situation. It's so bad that anytime Outcast comes up, you're sure to see a debate about Veil's final act at the end, with no real conclusion being able to be drawn responsibly from the text because it's all based on interpretation.
Outcast left me wanting, and sad (especially considering one of the most interesting characters in the entire book just dies out of the blue, and no, it's not Veil), and I have yet to forgive it for making me feel this way.
Yeah, to quote something i once read, it feels like Jacques started deconstructing his world, but never quite put it back together. I too was dissapointed by Skarlath's death.
I would disagree, too, that this is the best book in the series. I've given reasons in some other threads; one being the somewhat one-dimensional character of Bryony and a few other characters.
Agree to disagree that Marlfox is the best book in the series.
Wasn't my favorite
Agreed.
Don't get me wrong I liked it, but I have to agree with Soran here, it felt a little crammed. The entire Veil plot (while my favourite part of the book) felt rushed. What would have been better, perhaps, was if the book had been split in two. Like the first book (by book I mean novel) is all about Sunflash and Skarlath and Swartt, and it ends with Veil being taken into the abbey.
Then you get another book (novel) that is direct a sequel to the first story, and you know... centers around the titular character.* That would have given us a lot more time to get to know Veil, I mean we saw him in what 10-ish chapters? I personally would have liked to see more of his childhood and stuff and then after he gets banished (the poisoning wouldn't have been a random occurrence if the Mr Jacques had enough time to build up to it) he can still go searching for his warlord father and stuff-but wouldn't it have been wonderfully ironic if Swartt was dead the entire time?
Food for thought, but I think it was a bit too much for one book.
*That was another thing that bothered me. Imagine if you read a Harry Potter book, and suddenly most of the story is about Dumbledore and Voldermort and then Harry comes out of nowhere and kills him. That would be pretty dull, right? Or if Percy Jackson was actually about Greek Mythology and didn't even have a character called Percy for most of the book...
I haven't read this one in a while, but I do recall liking the fact that perhaps there is more to just having "good species" and "bad species" in Redwall to basically determine your lot in life. I'd have to find my really old post on Redwall's gray characters. I thought Veil was something unique. A character that shows that nurturing might actually matter! In the end, I think Brian Jacques showed that nurturing could exist in Redwall and make a difference. He tried the same thing again in Taggerung. I wish he had done more of this. The whole Redwall series would've been far more interesting with more gray characters. ;)
Here is my very old post that spawned a lot of messages about gray characters. It fits in with why I felt Outcast was one of the better books in the series.
http://www.redwallabbey.com/forum/index.php?topic=430.0
Thanks Lutra! In the future please edit your first post instead of double posting. :)
(Lol, Lutra's a mod.)
Ha!
You tell 'im, Nadaz. ;)
Wha?? The regulars boss me around?? :P You guys are brave bossing an otter mod around these parts. We don't even speak of what is at the bottom of the Abbey pond when beasts around here don't behave.....you'll never see some things again! >:D
Nadaz, I am totally in agreement though that Redwall needed gray characters and it made Outcast amazing.
Quote from: The Skarzs on June 06, 2018, 01:57:29 PM
(Lol, Lutra's a mod.)
And?
The law must be applied equally to all people.
On topic, I always liked outcast, despite it's fairly simplistic examination of morality. It has cool characters.
There is an interesting discrepancy between Outcast of Redwall and Legend of Luke. It has to do with the death of Timballisto relative to MTW. In the Legend of Luke, Timballisto had died a season or two before the book began hence MTW has to go on the quest to learn his family history. However, in Outcast of Redwall the abbey recorder Barlom says that his grandfather Timballisto told him stories about Martin but that he regrettably never got to know him (Martin). This would imply that MTW died before Timballisto did, yet in the Legend of Luke its clearly the opposite. Martin was still in good health and shape and still relatively young by the time of Timballisto's died even going on a long quest to their birth place a season or two after it...
I know, it's strange. One possibility is that Barlom was very young at the time someone told him stories of Martin, so he later got confused and *thought* the person who'd told him stories about Martin was his grandfather, when in fact it was somebeast else. I dunno. XP
Unless Timballisto and his family lived outside of Redwall, and they never visited there until it was too late.
I thought Outcast was a bit dissapointing, but I'd say it's a bit worse then Mattimeo, but FAR ahead of Mariel of Redwall.
Quote from: Grond on June 17, 2018, 05:12:57 AM
There is an interesting discrepancy between Outcast of Redwall and Legend of Luke. It has to do with the death of Timballisto relative to MTW. In the Legend of Luke, Timballisto had died a season or two before the book began hence MTW has to go on the quest to learn his family history. However, in Outcast of Redwall the abbey recorder Barlom says that his grandfather Timballisto told him stories about Martin but that he regrettably never got to know him (Martin). This would imply that MTW died before Timballisto did, yet in the Legend of Luke its clearly the opposite. Martin was still in good health and shape and still relatively young by the time of Timballisto's died even going on a long quest to their birth place a season or two after it...
Maybe Brian sometimes forgets what he puts in his books
Quote from: Sanddunes on September 16, 2018, 12:33:23 AM
Maybe Brian sometimes forgets what he puts in his books
Perfectly understandable
Something I just realized today because I was writing my fanfic and was thinking of Veil. Ahem. Not sure if this is the best thread to put this in but...
Jodd the Squirrelhare is a hare raised by squirrels who thinks he's a squirrel despite being a hare.
Yet Veil does not end up thinking for a moment that he is another type of animal?
Is this perhaps a parallel made by Brian Jacques? What is the point of Jodd the Squirrelhare?
MAYBE I'm overthinking, but...
It just hammers home how hard I feel like Outcast was a missed opportunity.
Perfectly understandable
Something I just realized today because I was writing my fanfic and was thinking of Veil. Ahem. Not sure if this is the best thread to put this in but...
Jodd the Squirrelhare is a hare raised by squirrels who thinks he's a squirrel despite being a hare.
Yet Veil does not end up thinking for a moment that he is another type of animal?
Is this perhaps a parallel made by Brian Jacques? What is the point of Jodd the Squirrelhare?
MAYBE I'm overthinking, but...
It just hammers home how hard I feel like Outcast was a missed opportunity
Indeed.
I hated how the Krakulat storyline ended. 😢