When I first finished Martin the Warrior, there was one question that kept on bugging me- why didn't Polleekin tell Martin and his friends that Rose would die at Marshank? I looked it up on the Redwall wiki. It said, and I quote, "However she did not want to share her visions with others in order not to give them false hopes or bring them unconfirmed reason for sadness." It made sense somewhat, but it just wasn't good enough. She could have saved allot of sadness for Martin and the others if she had told about Rose's death.
Now, I understand that BJ had to make Rose die to have the story of Martin fit in with Mossflower, but with everything there has to be some explanation.
That's what I intend to do here with the case about Rose's death and Polleekin not telling Martin about it.
She probably knew that Martin and Rose wouldn't believe her. Besides, she wanted them to be able to choose on their own, not be forced to choose with a bias.
Some would say if they knew of future events (a crystal ball as it were) they would do more to protect themselves, or chance their life to live up to this prophecy that could happen. That isn't living or life; that's something having total control over you. If Martin had the knowledge that Rose would die at Marshank he might have taken more risks to keep her safe, and essentially die himself, a victim of the fear of losing Rose. The fact he didn't know is likely why he survived and lived to avenge here and destroy Badrang.
It's likely that Polleekin didn't know. She saw sorrow ahead for Martin but we don't know for sure if she knew what it would be.
Quote from: Lutra on May 18, 2013, 03:20:15 AM
Some would say if they knew of future events (a crystal ball as it were) they would do more to protect themselves, or chance their life to live up to this prophecy that could happen. That isn't living or life; that's something having total control over you. If Martin had the knowledge that Rose would die at Marshank he might have taken more risks to keep her safe, and essentially die himself, a victim of the fear of losing Rose. The fact he didn't know is likely why he survived and lived to avenge here and destroy Badrang.
He could have also told Rose to wear a helmet.
-Duxwing
It'z zorto' zome future-zeein' rule. Zey cannae really actually tell zem ze actual zing, zey can only give ze cryptic talk.
Dux, you're assuming she would have worn the helmet. ;) But I think Rose would've been far more annoyed with Martin trying to protect her that there would've been more trouble for the group if he was so distracted.
Quote from: Lutra on May 20, 2013, 02:32:27 AM
I think Rose would've been far more annoyed with Martin trying to protect her that there would've been more trouble for the group if he was so distracted.
But Polleekin knew that she would die at Fortress Marshank, not anywhere else. Couldn't she have just told Martin, nobody else, about were and how Rose would die?
Quote from: Lutra on May 20, 2013, 02:32:27 AM
Dux, you're assuming she would have worn the helmet. ;)
Why couldn't Martin just say the following, then?
"Hey, Rose! I've got good news, and bad news: the bad news is that the seer says that you're going to get your head smashed against a wall and die. The good news is that wearing a helmet would probably prevent that."
Or
"Hey Rose. There are old warriors, and there are bold warriors, but there are no old, bold warriors; I've asked the troops to make themselves some armor, so you should, too. And apparently, according to the seer, especially a helmet."
Or
"Hey Rose, nothing personal, but the seer says that you're going to hit your head and die. Maybe wearing a helmet would help."
Or
"Hey Rose, here's a helmet. I've ordered the pigmy shrews that we rescued to pelt your head with rocks until we reach Marshank, so I suggest that you wear it."
Or even:
"Hey Rose, I love you, and while you probably think that I'm being overprotective in asking you to wear a helmet, I have good reason to suspect that you're going to hit your head hard on this assault and have been warning the others about other dangers that the seer foretold."
Quote
But I think Rose would've been far more annoyed with Martin trying to protect her
He could advise his entire unit to fashion themselves some crude armor, then.
Quote
that there would've been more trouble for the group if he was so distracted.
Telling Rose to wear a helmet would take... 3 seconds? Couldn't Martin reason with her?
-Duxwing
Well, you see, even if she had on a helmet, it doesn't mean she couldn't die. What if Badrang stabbed her first, or her helmet got knocked off?
Quote from: Shadowed One on May 21, 2013, 06:49:24 PM
Well, you see, even if she had on a helmet, it doesn't mean she couldn't die. What if Badrang stabbed her first, or her helmet got knocked off?
Never thought of that...oh, it just bugs me why Polleekin never told about Rose's death! As I have said before, she could explain it so that Martin would know were she would die and how she would die.
This might have been mentioned before, but Polleekin only saw sadness ahead for Martin. That could have meant anything: not getting the sword, someone he loves dying, many people dying, etc. Polleekin didn't see Rose's death, only sadness for Martin.
Yeah, it says that she could only see things vaguely. I mean, the poem/riddle/map thing was very vague.
But, when asked what bad fortune awated them she said that it wasn't for her to say. Also, the book also states that Polleekin also told Boldred about it. If she didn't have her facts straite, then why tell anybody else?
Quote from: Shadowed One on May 21, 2013, 06:49:24 PM
Well, you see, even if she had on a helmet, it doesn't mean she couldn't die. What if Badrang stabbed her first, or her helmet got knocked off?
Sure, she might die despite wearing a helmet. However, we have no guarantee that Badrang would not hurl Rose anyway, so wearing a helmet is logical given that we have evidence that she will be hurled against a wall.
On the other hand, what if Polleekin knows that she is not a seer but a crazy beast who has hallucinations.
-Duxwing
Quote from: Duxwing link=topic=4059.msg188966#msg188966quote]
On the other hand, what if Polleekin knows that she is not a seer but a crazy beast who has hallucinations.
-Duxwing
She really didn't seem to be that type.
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on May 24, 2013, 11:22:12 PM
She really didn't seem to be that type.
Why not?
-Duxwing
I still say that Polleekin didn't know exactly what was going to happen, so she couldn't tell Martin even if she wanted to.
Quote from: Duxwing on May 25, 2013, 12:32:06 AM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on May 24, 2013, 11:22:12 PM
She really didn't seem to be that type.
Why not?
-Duxwing
For one thing, they would have to be pretty elaborate hillusionations. The secand, well, she just didn't really seem to be craized at all.
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on May 25, 2013, 12:47:12 AM
For one thing, they would have to be pretty elaborate hillusionations.
Hallucinations can be quite elaborate.
Quote
The secand, well, she just didn't really seem to be craized at all.
She needn't be outwardly crazy; in fact, the inwardly crazy tend to have wilder thoughts.
-Duxwing
P.S. "Hillusionations"!? By the fur, is that the
horrible
illusion of someone having eaten your "secand" satchel of r
ations? Dreadful, simply dreadful! ;D But I thought that all the hullabaloo was about those bloody
hallucinations.
Zhe never really ztruck me az ze lunatic type.
Me neither.
Well, there goes that hypothesis.
-Duxwing
Never gathered that Polleekin would have hallucinations from the text or description of her. Usually Mr. Jacques is pretty black and white with his characters and descriptions. If she was cuckoo, you'd know (e.g. Madd the squirrel).
Quote from: Lutra on May 25, 2013, 01:48:06 AM
Never gathered that Polleekin would have hallucinations from the text or description of her. Usually Mr. Jacques is pretty black and white with his characters and descriptions. If she was cuckoo, you'd know (e.g. Madd the squirrel).
:-[ I've never had the chance to meet Madd, but I'm sure that she was as crazy as a hare after shrimp and hotroot soup.
-Duxwing
Hares eat anything; a hare after shrimp and hotroot soup doesn't sound crazy to me
Quote from: Romsca on May 25, 2013, 04:12:56 AM
Hares eat anything; a hare after shrimp and hotroot soup doesn't sound crazy to me
My point was that the hare would be 'crazy' motivated to eat it, not that
being thus motivated would be crazy.
-Duxwing
No matter from any angle you look at it, I don't think it will ever make sense completely why Polleekin didn't tell about Rose's death...
If she did, they might not have gone, and Martin wouldn't have gotten his sword, and Redwall wouldn't be built, etc. So Rose kind of HAD to die.
Quote from: Lutra on May 25, 2013, 01:48:06 AM
Never gathered that Polleekin would have hallucinations from the text or description of her. Usually Mr. Jacques is pretty black and white with his characters and descriptions. If she was cuckoo, you'd know (e.g. Madd the squirrel).
You could add to that Mad Maudie, from
Lord Brocktree
Quote from: GeminyaTome on May 28, 2013, 11:47:14 PM
Quote from: Lutra on May 25, 2013, 01:48:06 AM
Never gathered that Polleekin would have hallucinations from the text or description of her. Usually Mr. Jacques is pretty black and white with his characters and descriptions. If she was cuckoo, you'd know (e.g. Madd the squirrel).
You could add to that Mad Maudie, from Lord Brocktree
Mad Maudie was NOT mad!! She was an awesome boxing hare!
And she was from the book
Eulalia!. :)
Quote from: Shadowed One on May 27, 2013, 01:44:38 PM
If she did, they might not have gone, and Martin wouldn't have gotten his sword, and Redwall wouldn't be built, etc. So Rose kind of HAD to die.
But it could have been handled better. That's the point of the thread.
-Duxwing
Yes, Rose could have stayed, and not gone to the battle.
Quote from: Leatho Shellhound on May 29, 2013, 12:59:03 AM
Quote from: GeminyaTome on May 28, 2013, 11:47:14 PM
Quote from: Lutra on May 25, 2013, 01:48:06 AM
Never gathered that Polleekin would have hallucinations from the text or description of her. Usually Mr. Jacques is pretty black and white with his characters and descriptions. If she was cuckoo, you'd know (e.g. Madd the squirrel).
You could add to that Mad Maudie, from Lord Brocktree
Mad Maudie was NOT mad!! She was an awesome boxing hare!
Her name implies that she wasn't all together...
Quote from: Leatho Shellhound on May 29, 2013, 12:59:03 AM
And she was from the book Eulalia!. :)
oops.... This is sad. I need to re-read some more Redwalls!! It's been too long! Now that summer has started maybe I can get some more in!
Quote from: Duxwing on May 29, 2013, 02:50:03 AM
Quote from: Shadowed One on May 27, 2013, 01:44:38 PM
If she did, they might not have gone, and Martin wouldn't have gotten his sword, and Redwall wouldn't be built, etc. So Rose kind of HAD to die.
But it could have been handled better. That's the point of the thread.
-Duxwing
Yes, Polleekin could of explained to Martin that Rose would die, and Martin could tell Rose, and she might of actually lived.
Also, if Polleekin did tell Martin about it, couldn't have Rose just stayed at Noonvale, completely out of harms way?
Even if Polleekin 'ad told zem, zomezin' elze vould ztill 'ave 'appened. Unfortunately, zat'z ze vay ztuff like ziz vorkz.
Quote from: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on May 31, 2013, 11:12:10 PM
Even if Polleekin 'ad told zem, zomezin' elze vould ztill 'ave 'appened. Unfortunately, zat'z ze vay ztuff like ziz vorkz.
How do we know Rose would have died if she had sterred clear of Marshank?
Like ah zaid, zat'z ze vay ztuff like ziz vorkz.
Reminds me of a video game called fable where the blind seeress called theresa tells the hero only that the path to save the world will result in sacrifices,these sacrifices reveal themselves later and they are not nice.
If pollekin had told martin would he have gone on his misson?would he change his mind at the thought of his love being harmed?
I think it was best of pollekin to keep that secret otherwise mossflower would have become compleatly different.
I agree with phoenixfoden, but I will put my (basically same) reasons in different words.
I believe that Polleekin couldn't tell Martin because, well, the space-time continuum. (Not that she would have any knowledge of that, necessarily, but mucking about with time is a serious business. There can be some major repercussions.) Even though they would not be time-traveling, I think that even knowing too much (like what Doc says in Back To The Future) can affect EVERYTHING. Seriously, having an excess of knowledge about the future can really mess stuff up. Time is a wonderful but terrifying thing.
Agreed.
Unfortunately, Rose had to die for the sake of the Redwall Series. I mean, if Polleekin had told Martin (that is to say she saw the vision clear enough) that Rose was going to die, Martin would have found a way to protect her. Then Rose would have survived and Martin would have gone back to Noonvale. Her death was essential for him to leave the north and wander into Mossflower, as unfortunate and sad is circumstances may be.
Just an observation here... Does anyone else find that the whole Martin/Rose thing seems to be the most questioned, debated and possibly loved topic about the Redwall series?
Makes you wonder if Jacques had a larger plan in mind before his untimely death... possibly an answer to the questions... I mean we know Martin goes on a secret quest from Gonff's journal, yes we are told Grumm planted a rose bush on Rose's grave, but we aren't told when, we never 'see' Rose buried or an actual 'grave'... just things that make you go hmmmmmm.....
Quote from: Free Thought on June 03, 2013, 05:05:37 AM
Just an observation here... Does anyone else find that the whole Martin/Rose thing seems to be the most questioned, debated and possibly loved topic about the Redwall series?
Makes you wonder if Jacques had a larger plan in mind before his untimely death... possibly an answer to the questions... I mean we know Martin goes on a secret quest from Gonff's journal, yes we are told Grumm planted a rose bush on Rose's grave, but we aren't told when, we never 'see' Rose buried or an actual 'grave'... just things that make you go hmmmmmm.....
Yea, it does seem to be... when I first finished
Martin The Warrior, I though that BJ wouldn't let things slip like that that easily. Perhaps he was working on a work about them before he died...
Also, I think that
Martin The Warrior might be the central book in the Redwall series. It is that book that makes every other Redwall book (With the exception of
Lord Brocktree) what they are. Without that book, the other Redwall just wouldn't be the same...
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on June 03, 2013, 07:47:34 PM
Quote from: Free Thought on June 03, 2013, 05:05:37 AM
Just an observation here... Does anyone else find that the whole Martin/Rose thing seems to be the most questioned, debated and possibly loved topic about the Redwall series?
Makes you wonder if Jacques had a larger plan in mind before his untimely death... possibly an answer to the questions... I mean we know Martin goes on a secret quest from Gonff's journal, yes we are told Grumm planted a rose bush on Rose's grave, but we aren't told when, we never 'see' Rose buried or an actual 'grave'... just things that make you go hmmmmmm.....
Yea, it does seem to be... when I first finished Martin The Warrior, I though that BJ wouldn't let things slip like that that easily. Perhaps he was working on a work about them before he died...
Also, I think that Martin The Warrior might be the central book in the Redwall series. It is that book that makes every other Redwall book (With the exception of Lord Brocktree) what they are. Without that book, the other Redwall just wouldn't be the same...
Aye, it tellz a bit aboot vhere Martin comez from (vhich iz then furzered by Ze Legend O' Luke) an' ov' 'e came tae be travellin', az vell az talkin' aboot 'iz zvord.
It vaz alzae ze firzt Redwall book zat ah read, zae it iz zorta ze central book in ze zeriez for me taae.
Quote from: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on June 04, 2013, 05:23:21 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on June 03, 2013, 07:47:34 PM
Quote from: Free Thought on June 03, 2013, 05:05:37 AM
Just an observation here... Does anyone else find that the whole Martin/Rose thing seems to be the most questioned, debated and possibly loved topic about the Redwall series?
Makes you wonder if Jacques had a larger plan in mind before his untimely death... possibly an answer to the questions... I mean we know Martin goes on a secret quest from Gonff's journal, yes we are told Grumm planted a rose bush on Rose's grave, but we aren't told when, we never 'see' Rose buried or an actual 'grave'... just things that make you go hmmmmmm.....
Yea, it does seem to be... when I first finished Martin The Warrior, I though that BJ wouldn't let things slip like that that easily. Perhaps he was working on a work about them before he died...
Also, I think that Martin The Warrior might be the central book in the Redwall series. It is that book that makes every other Redwall book (With the exception of Lord Brocktree) what they are. Without that book, the other Redwall just wouldn't be the same...
Aye, it tellz a bit aboot vhere Martin comez from (vhich iz then furzered by Ze Legend O' Luke) an' ov' 'e came tae be travellin', az vell az talkin' aboot 'iz zvord.
It vaz alzae ze firzt Redwall book zat ah read, zae it iz zorta ze central book in ze zeriez for me taae.
Yep :) In a way, it might be a good book for a starter of the Redwall series, though I still do think that Lord Brocktree should be the first book for a starter.
This is a really good point. I never really thought of it like that, but if Martin had warned Rose, and she had listened, things might have seriously changed. :o Someone should write a fanfiction about that...
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on June 04, 2013, 10:34:54 PM
This is a really good point. I never really thought of it like that, but if Martin had warned Rose, and she had listened, things might have seriously changed :o
In what way do you think?
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on June 04, 2013, 10:34:54 PM
Someone should write a fanfiction about that...
And several people have!
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on June 04, 2013, 10:37:21 PM
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on June 04, 2013, 10:34:54 PM
This is a really good point. I never really thought of it like that, but if Martin had warned Rose, and she had listened, things might have seriously changed :o
In what way do you think?
I dunno, but the book
Mossflower definitely wouldn't be the same. :(
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on June 04, 2013, 10:40:16 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on June 04, 2013, 10:37:21 PM
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on June 04, 2013, 10:34:54 PM
This is a really good point. I never really thought of it like that, but if Martin had warned Rose, and she had listened, things might have seriously changed :o
In what way do you think?
I dunno, but the book Mossflower definitely wouldn't be the same. :(
Thats pretty much the only reason BJ had Rose die; Mossflower was written first, so he had to make Martin The Warrior fit in with it :-\
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on June 04, 2013, 10:34:54 PM
This is a really good point. I never really thought of it like that, but if Martin had warned Rose, and she had listened, things might have seriously changed. :o
Not necessarily. Anybody here seen Pirates of the Caribean 4? Blackbeard knew what would happen, but he couldn't change it.
Yes, in this regard, fate is fate and there is no use running from it, so to speak. I mean, even if Martin had left Rose at Noonvale or miraculously saved her during the Battle of Marshank, whose to say she would not have died anyway by some other cause, such as a fever or even childbirth (should Martin and her relationship have progressed that far)?
In the grand scheme of Redwall, Rose had to die (unfortunately). There is an old saying that 'to fear nothing is to love nothing' and perhaps that is what needed to happen to Martin in order for him to stare down Tsarmina. Battling a wildcat when you are only a mouse would be a pretty fearful thing, whether you were fighting for a cause or not, it would no doubt chill the blood of any creature except those who had nothing to lose, but all to gain by death. By Rose dying, Martin was able to more or less sacrifice himself for Mossflower, because he loved nothing he would leave behind by his death.
I suppose in this regard, whether or not Polleekin told Martin about Rose's death directly or not would have little effect on the outcome: Martin's fate was decided that he would liberate Mossflower and in order for him to be fearless enough to do it, he had to lose the love of his life, fighting for the idea of peace that she held so dear.
Quote from: PluggFiretail on June 05, 2013, 03:28:08 PM
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on June 04, 2013, 10:34:54 PM
This is a really good point. I never really thought of it like that, but if Martin had warned Rose, and she had listened, things might have seriously changed. :o
Not necessarily. Anybody here seen Pirates of the Caribean 4? Blackbeard knew what would happen, but he couldn't change it.
Ve must alzae nae forget zat ze future iz nae zet in ztone. Often people 'ave fulfilled zere fate zimply becauze zey didnae believe zat zey could change it. Fortune tellin' predictz vot vill 'appen, but it doeznae zet it in ztone. (Of courze zince ziz iz ze Redwall zeriez, an' Mozzflover vaz vritten before Martin Ze Varrior, zomezin' ad tae 'appen. Zae ye could zay it
vaz zet in ztone, or at least zet in paper.)
someone wrote a fanfiction on what would have happened if Rose lived ;) it's a good Fanfic but I don't know why Polleekin didn't tell them that Rose would die maybe she didn't want to interfere with fate :-\
Quote from: rachel25 on June 05, 2013, 04:55:56 PM
someone wrote a fanfiction on what would have happened if Rose lived ;) it's a good Fanfic but I don't know why Polleekin didn't tell them that Rose would die maybe she didn't want to interfere with fate :-\
An intresting though on the hole Polleekin thing. By the way, which Fanfiction are you talking about?
Because then she wouldn't have died.
Quote from: Vilu Daskar on June 16, 2013, 08:11:28 PM
Because then she wouldn't have died.
What do you mean?
Like all of you have been saying it would change all their fate, Martin wouldn't have left and then Mossfower wouldn't have been freed and it all just wouldn't work. That is why Polleekin didn't tell them, it might have seemed good on the top; but it would destroy everything.That's why you don't tell people(or creatures) their fate. It will mess up equilibrium.