Some of y'all might have noticed we've been talking about the shoutbox (on the shoutbox itself, appropriately enough).
The community seems to have taken a real shine to this feature. To say that it's "wildly popular" wouldn't be an exaggeration. I saved its extended history to my hard drive the other day, and it weighed in at something like 6 megs. That's pretty huge for anything that's mostly text.
We're always looking for ways to improve the community's experience on the forum. Part of doing that is getting a better understanding of how our work affects you.
What do y'all like most about the shoutbox?
I really like the fact that it's quick and handy to post, and it gets more exposure because everyone, no matter where they are on the forum, will see it.
Similarly to what Jukka said, you don't have to keep waiting for replies, because everyone can see it at all times.
Basically what Jukka and Groddil said. It's easy and quick to post, and everyone sees it because it's right there on the main page.
I mostly wonder why I can't see it.
Quote from: Jukka the Sling on February 07, 2016, 08:35:33 PM
I really like the fact that it's quick and handy to post, and it gets more exposure because everyone, no matter where they are on the forum, will see it.
Quote from: Groddil on February 07, 2016, 08:36:15 PM
Similarly to what Jukka said, you don't have to keep waiting for replies, because everyone can see it at all times.
Quote from: Lady Amber on February 07, 2016, 08:42:33 PM
Basically what Jukka and Groddil said. It's easy and quick to post, and everyone sees it because it's right there on the main page.
Unless you don't look at it, which I generally don't.
I dislike group chat features in general because they confuse me.
Quote from: Jet the binturong on February 07, 2016, 08:49:49 PM
I dislike group chat features in general because they confuse me.
I'm inclined to agree with this statement. While the shoutbox can be useful for getting a message across, most legitimate posts tend to quickly disappear under a torrent of meaningless spam. In my opinion, the shoutbox should be kept, but with an option to hide it for those who would prefer not to have it up there.
There actually is a way to hide the shoutbox; if you hit the "minus" on the top-right, it goes away. You also lose the display with your avatar, and the "show unread posts since last visit" and "show new replies to your posts" links.
Wow, I didn't know that. It's actually kind of helpful because the shoutbox and everything else admittedly does take up a lot of room.
LOVE the new shoutbox. I think it will really help the community grow tighter together (when people are on). I'm curious to see how it will play out for larger crowds, though
I like the shout box a lot, becuase it's easy to talk to others without having to leave the page. You're also able to keep up to date without having to search through the all the threads.
Part of the problem I have with the shout box is how much activity is used on it, instead of on the boards, especially where the series this forum is dedicated to should be discussed. Sure, we can get burnt out on it, but I feel the lightning-response immediate socializing is taking away from the series we love and making us more like the world around us, something Brian did not intend with his books.
With these forums, it was as if I could escape into a world of imagination, every board was an adventure where we could explore the different sides of people without the slang and lack of attention in real life, as well as a place where we could be crazy. (The last part certainly has no trouble here, though. . .) The shout box is like a school cafeteria, dozens of people spewing conversations loudly as they frantically get as much of their socializing done in their off time as quickly as possible, instead of quality interactions over longer periods.
In short, the shout box to me is like introducing the phone to the Middle Ages.
^^ When you put it like that anything sounds bad.
I like because it's faster than say PMs, especially on this forum when it's hard to see if you have any new ones. Plus it's kinda cool having a more real-time conversation. I've had a few awesome conversations (Yes, actual conversations) because of it. Especially when the forum's slow.
Suddenly I'm getting notifications every time someone posts. Does this have to do with my hiding the shout box on my computer?
No, although keeping the shoutbox on would have explained it.
It's a new feature I'm experimenting with. If it's any good, it might stay. If it's too annoying (which is looking likely), it'll be gone very soon.
I like the shout box because you can talk about utterly random things without creating a new topic. ;D
I like the shoutbox because you can have conversation with everybody on the forum whilst doing other things on the site without having to open another tap to check it.
I like the notifications on the PMs, how does it work with boards?
Right now, it doesn't. People thought it was way too annoying with how frequently it came up, so it's only set to notify you on PMs.
Quote from: Skarzs on February 07, 2016, 10:33:01 PM
Part of the problem I have with the shout box is how much activity is used on it, instead of on the boards, especially where the series this forum is dedicated to should be discussed. Sure, we can get burnt out on it, but I feel the lightning-response immediate socializing is taking away from the series we love and making us more like the world around us, something Brian did not intend with his books.
With these forums, it was as if I could escape into a world of imagination, every board was an adventure where we could explore the different sides of people without the slang and lack of attention in real life, as well as a place where we could be crazy. (The last part certainly has no trouble here, though. . .) The shout box is like a school cafeteria, dozens of people spewing conversations loudly as they frantically get as much of their socializing done in their off time as quickly as possible, instead of quality interactions over longer periods.
In short, the shout box to me is like introducing the phone to the Middle Ages.
I'm inclined to agree with this. Even though the shoutbox is very convenient, there isn't much activity in the forum.
No, don't kill it! The shoutbox made it really easy to get to know people and assimilate (I think that's the word I'm looking for! :P)
Jumping in and posting in other people's topics can cause some hesitation at first, because you don't want to be intrusive. Also, most of the threads are dedicated to specific topics, and you can't just jump into everything!
I can't be involved in any of the Role Plays already going, I can't post about topics I don't know anything about, and a lot of things will take me awhile to get used to. For example there's that "Secret Forum Crush thread". I don't feel quite comfortable posting in there yet, because I'm not used to everyone, and it would just be weird since a lot of the members are like a tight knit family and really used to one another. It would be like sitting at a lunch table with complete strangers and asking them about their dating lives. You could do it, but why would you?
On the other hand, the shoutbox doesn't have any rules, and anyone can post there at anytime. I got to know a lot of members on there that I haven't encountered in a single topic yet. It's easy, quick, simple and not permanently there for everyone to see, so there's no worries! (Hakuna Matata? :o ;))
#SaveTheShoutBox2016
I'm going to have to argue for the shoutbox, it's a useful tool and as long as certain guidelines are followed then it doesn't ever have a negative effect on anyone. Not to mention if the shoutbox becomes annoying at any point it can be closed with a single click. ;)
Of course, I argue in favor of the shout box. I always thought it was a good idea, especially for mobile users who don't want to constantly pinch and zoom across the forum. There's definitely some guidelines that should be put in place (restrictions on the things that are talked about, as some (myself included), have just spammed it before with no remorse, or have used it for less the stellar conversations.)
But overall, I think he shout box is exceptionally useful.
Even the CELLARS are getting less activity, and they've always been the most active next to Forum Games. Part of it has to do with people just lurking about on the forum instead of doing anything, but I still feel like more and more attention is being directed at the shout box. It's discouraging.
I'm all for the Shoutbix. Yesterday, I just went out and proclaimed my joy for the new Skyrim remaster, instead of making a while topic. Now, for things much more personal and such, I'll make a topic, but having something easy to start a conversation in, it just helps with the flow of useful and non useful things. Also, you can't have that quick easy communication on just posts. It's certainly helped me learn and talk to others instead of having to read though pages and pages of cellar lore just to understand the conversation. Please keep it James, for all the sad and lonely Introverts.
Plus, you're able to respond quickly. Otherwise, especially in the Cellars, you have to sit...wait...stare at Who's Online until you FINALLY see the posting in your topic... wait... and then the cycle stars all over again for the other person. Communication is much more fluid in the shout box, which in my opinion, is a good thing.
@Skarzs Be that as it may, it's part of the evolution of the forum I think. Popular Forum Games distracts attention away from Forum Games, because it gets much more traffic per topic. Secret Hideout have changed the way the Cellars are used. The Shout Box, in my opinion, is just another step in the evolution of the forum.
¯\_(?)_/¯
This evolution seems to be leading up to complete disregard for the forum part and instead using it as a form of Twitter or Snapchat.
Don't really see how it becomes Snapchat, but think. The forum used to be just Redwall related. Then, they had more members join and more odd and random online things, so the cellars grew. Afterwards, RPs started drifting away from the normal Redwall formula and added Magic, New species, etc. Fanfics started to do the same. Soon, by the time me and you joined, things started to become a bit off balanced with the actual Redwall part slowly being diminished. By the time it went down, hardly anyone was talking in Character Discussion. It seems as the shoutbox is extending from the Cellar craze by just giving it a new life. A community grew around Redwall, and, well, you can't keep asking and theorizing forever. Fun is to be had if you want people to stick around, so that's what the provided. The community liked and grew to it and soon slowly abandoned what started it all. So really, this is already a problem for the "Only Redwall" group of people, with the Shoutbox just fighting against them.
Quote from: Gonff the Mousethief on June 14, 2016, 05:28:26 AM
Don't really see how it becomes Snapchat, but think. The forum used to be just Redwall related. Then, they had more members join and more odd and random online things, so the cellars grew. Afterwards, RPs started drifting away from the normal Redwall formula and added Magic, New species, etc. Fanfics started to do the same. Soon, by the time me and you joined, things started to become a bit off balanced with the actual Redwall part slowly being diminished. By the time it went down, hardly anyone was talking in Character Discussion. It seems as the shoutbox is extending from the Cellar craze by just giving it a new life. A community grew around Redwall, and, well, you can't keep asking and theorizing forever. Fun is to be had if you want people to stick around, so that's what the provided. The community liked and grew to it and soon slowly abandoned what started it all. So really, this is already a problem for the "Only Redwall" group of people, with the Shoutbox just fighting against them.
That's true. The boards already had this problem, the shoutbox didn't cause them.
I agree with Skarzs. Besides, I've always hated group chat features because they're confusing and random and make no sense.
Quote from: Jet the binturong on June 14, 2016, 10:24:34 AM
I agree with Skarzs. Besides, I've always hated group chat features because they're confusing and random and make no sense.
On the right hand side, next to the date, there's a little arrow. Click it.
One problem though, is that you (and Skarz especially) never really use the shoutbox. The people who do should be the ones who help decide. A lot of conversations on the box just aren't as possible on the boards. It takes too long for a reply, and clogs up the topics.
True, but many more discussions that could have taken place in the Cellars have taken place in the Shoutbox. It's taking away waaay to much activity from the forum.
Quote from: Groddil on June 14, 2016, 10:27:58 AM
One problem though, is that you (and Skarz especially) never really use the shoutbox. The people who do should be the ones who help decide.
The problem with that is that most people who use the shoutbox will have a bias, and so we should take the feedback of all the members to see the other perspectives on the shoutbox.
Since most of what's said in the Shoutbox doesn't interest me, I tend to keep it closed. I open it on occasion to see if anything cool is happening or if I need to call James. And I'm not bothered by it.
I can see the arguments for and against. Personally, I think it's a good thing. Due to it's convenience, it gets more traffic, and that allows members to bond more than they otherwise would have.
If there's one stark disadvantage to the Shoutbox, it's that - unlike the posts - it isn't archived (at least, not for the members). This can be a bummer, and it's one reason I do prefer sticking to the old-fashioned threads.
Perhaps I'm blind, but the forum - boards and all - seems healthily active to me.
Regardless of whether or not the shout box is there, people need to make more effort to post, at least a little bit. What happens is a compound effect. I'll give a scenario.
Six out of twelve people don't post all day. That's half the activity. The last six find less of a reason to post because of lack of activity. Then there are eight people not posting. The last four get bored with only each others' company, and decide to find something else to do to take up their time. Less posts. Eventually, that leads to new people seeing that there is no activity, and drift away. Other members get discouraged, and don't post, and the situation gets worse until there are almost no posts every day.
That's what I don't want to happen.
I don't like using the shout box, so I keep it closed. Others are of like mind. So if we have that choice, do we need to force ourselves to find that activity when all it would take to have some is a little more posts by other members? The shout box can be accessed on every board, even when you're in the middle of posting. I feel there's no need to give it your full attention.
There's a lot of commentary here, and it'd be tricky to quote and reply to each and every one. I will make some points, though, that I hope will respond to a lot of what's been said.
Fatch's point, that the forum is hard to get into, or Soren's statement that the shoutbox is better for mobile users, do highlight weaknesses in the existing format. Ideally, though, that shouldn't have anything to do with the shoutbox. If there are problems with the forum, like the interface, they should and can be addressed for themselves. In this case, the box seems more like a band-aid covering up the real problems of the forum.
I'm not sure why the argument that the shoutbox is much easier to post to than the other threads has so much endurance. Maybe it's because it's at the top of every single page. It could have something to do with being AJAX (meaning that it constantly refreshes and shows new content without user input). Objectively, I can't see why it is that these features should have so much appeal. That said, I do understand. I use the shoutbox as much or more than any member on the forum, and it does feel 'easier'. Rather than being evolutionary, though, I'd suggest that this might just as well be a form of devolution, degenerating from the ordered structure of the regular forum > board > topic format to the chaotic, freewheeling shout box.
That leads in to another point. From a moderator's perspective, the shout box has not been a good thing. Of all the content on the board that must trigger a staff response, the vast majority (say, 80% of problematic or controversial things) of it has been on the shout box. Some people would say that this is because the box is cannibalizing, or to put it more gently, "taking over" the other boards' regular activity. That's probably true to some extent. However, I have extensive experience with what the chat environment can do to people, and my opinion on this is that a good part of this activity is probably being generated by the shout box itself (or more accurately, how people react to it). More respected members (some even past or present Season Namers) have gone berserk on the box in the few months we've had it up than ever did in the entire four-year period before it was introduced. Is that a coincidence? I doubt it. This certainly goes hand-in-hand with the idea that the box is contributing to a degeneration of the community.
The forum's decreased activity in terms of posting isn't just a matter of opinion or an abstract feeling. It's an incontrovertible fact that, by that standard, the forum has experienced a profound lull these past few months. Comparing this forum's activity to the old forum (which is possible because I happen to have statistics showing forum activity from 6/2011 to 12/2014), we see that this past May was the quietest full month on record, with the next-quietest full month having been December 2011 (comparatively booming with 101 new topics and 3837 new posts). June seems on course for another historically low performance, with less new posts than any full summer month ever (the next-worst would be June 2014, with 125 new topics and 7310 new posts, or almost twice as many as we're set to get right now). Now, is all of that because of the shoutbox? Maybe not... but the fact is that I've got more than 50 megs worth of shout box material sitting on the server. (Edit: Now, it occurred to me since I made this post that a lot of that is from the code involved with the shout box posts, not the actual conversations. However, the general point still stands.) I think it's safe to say there is at least a correlation between the activity on the shoutbox and the lack of it everywhere else.
When we first brought up the idea of trying the shoutbox, I'll be upfront: it was intended to leech off from the Cellars. A respected staff member said, and I quote, "it may be able to fill the role of most of the Cellar's weird chat threads." What it wasn't intended to do was to take over everything else: discussion about people's private lives, chitchat about up and coming real-life news, or OOC chat for RPs. However, I don't think anybody who's spent any amount of time on the box can deny that it has, in fact, taken over all of those roles. And I don't think that's a positive development.
When this issue comes up next with the staff, I intend to strongly recommend (probably with a post making some or many of the same points above) that we dismantle it. That said, I will do my best to find new ways to address the problems we have, and contribute to the ease of use of the regular board, so that none of you will go into shock if this happens. ;)
Is there a way to put a time zone on the shout box? Like an open for chat for two hours three or four times a day to accommodate time zones? That way, there would still be a chat box, but it wouldn't be open 24-7, and would potentially give people more reason to post.
Of course, that may also lead to people holding out until the times the chat box is open, but there's a possibility for everything.
I guess I just didn't open my eyes wide enough to notice the decreasing activity :P (Or maybe I'm so used to Fiver's; we don't have as many posts there, so anything that happens here is staggering).
Nothin' wrong with getting rid of the Shoutbox. I'm a bit sad to see it go, and I just hope this brings discussion to the boards rather than make it disappear completely. My only concern is how members were able to so easily bond using this mechanism. But at least the forum is more organized without it.
If the shoutbox was supposed to "leech" of the Cellars, can it be placed
only in the Cellars? That way it won't distract away from the Redwall boards, but still be available like it is now?
I think there is certainly something wrong with getting rid of it. We wouldn't be able to understand one another in the same way without it. I would hate if the staff got rid of it.
QuoteMore respected members (some even past or present Season Namers) have gone berserk on the box in the few months we've had it up than ever did in the entire four-year period before it was introduced.
/me thinks he is at fault a bit
Yeah, sorry. If you're referring to anything that I've contributed to that, I do apologize, when I posted anything "edgy" by forum standards, is because I felt comfortable with the users on at the time, and thought it would be taken in a more jovial sense.
My bad.
That's an interesting idea.
We can certainly consider that, along with other options.
This isn't permanent, guys. It's only until James and I can figure out where to go from here.
Darn it.
Honestly, please keep it down. My opinions are in the Shoutbox Funeral topic if you care to see them.
*Aimless Gallivanter is very upset
I am really, really late on this, but oh well my opinions are goin' up anyway. *Rolls neck in preparation* Let's see how quick Corny can do this, eh people? Because I do wanna practice today.
I liked the shoutbox because it was fun, yeah, I could have more real-time conversations and I could have reasonable, nice conversations without them turning into/being influenced by "universe-ending death battles" (As Kit so nicely put it). I liked it because I could talk to people without all that endless GMing and PPing coming into play. . . And because most of the activity these days is in the Cellars (Probably because we were all in the shoutbox, hah) and in those tiring repetitive stupid silly battles. Which I hate. (A little of it is fine, but all the time, guys? Why? Just why?)
Half the time there were people on the shoutbox that never posted anymore.
I didn't like the shoutbox because we're no where near as active as we used to be in the first place, and when it went up, whoosh! I could sit for hours and no one would post. This place became BoredomVille. Also, when five people are on it at once? It becomes chaos really quick. Especially when one or more is spewing nonsense.
Any other opinions I have were nicely summed up by Kit in the Shoutbox Funeral.
Maybe a shoutbox with rules would be nice. You know, rules like no spamming.
My thoughts have fallen apart now. Dang. Oh well, I'm off to enjoy some pain.
Fatch was saying that he liked the shout box because it allowed him to get to know members more easily. That may be true, like having a real life conversation, but if others want to know about him (as an example), most of what he would have said is now lost to the histories of the shout box, instead of in a board where anyone can go back and read about him.
Just sharing that I've read some replies here, and I have gone and shared my opinion with Matthias and James on the future of the shoutbox. I think shoutboxes are detrimental to forum activity and are unnecessary (to put it kindly).
I like this forum much, much more now than I did when the shout box existed.
I may have been against the Shoutbox's death initially, but I've changed my mind after it's been done. Now, people are more encouraged to post in the Cellars - where things are less hectic, easy to moderate, and can be archived for future enjoyment :) In all honesty, I don't even think an alternative to the Shoutbox may be necessary. If people want to engage in friendly conversation about certain topics, we always have PM.
I've been for the shoutbox since before it was even created. Usage of it is purely by choice, even seeing it is by choice. PM's aren't as fluid, inclusive, or as fast. Topics take way longer for even a chance at a reply (the shoutbox has been utilized on many occasions as a way to get someone else to post a response in topic ****).
On placing it in the Cellars: I'm against that, because I spend the vast majority of my time in the Role-Play section, and not being able to participate in a conversation simply because I'm in a different board bugs me. I also hate having multiple tabs open (of the same site), because the switching back and forth is unnecessary.
On getting to know people: The argument was made that things to know about someone would be lost in the history... Isn't that how it should be? Say someone posts a topic about themselves, and 7 months later, a greenie comes along and reads it. Now their perspective/understanding of that person is 7 months out-of-date. People change, their favorite color could be different, their opinion of Sue's could have changed, maybe they moved, changed interests, dislike something they formerly loved. I personally feel like you should get to know someone's present self, not who they were back when they posted God-knows how long ago. [Case in point being that I've been a part of the forums for years, and if someone made assumptions/speculations/etc. about me based on how I introduced myself all those years ago, I'd be a bit ticked off.
On Cellars traffic: I view this as a good thing, I never really got to know any of the cellar-exclusive people (being a Role-Player that dabbles in real-world or Redwall universe opinions and conversations). So the addition helped to bridge a gap that I've had issues with.
On traffic in general: Blaming loss of traffic based on activity compared between old & new forum is just blatantly unfair. We lost members the day the old forum went down, I myself was lucky to find out that this even existed. Also, getting new members is exceedingly more difficult now (because who's going to type soopergrape.RAF in as their URL/search?). People look for Redwall Abbey, and now they'll draw a blank when it comes to the forum. Also, their's a point to be made about how the more serious boards were never as popular as the goofing off ones (hence why I like cellar traffic going down), and my reason for not using them much anymore is because I've already stated my opinions.... many times. I don't have as much to add to those boards anymore, hence why I Role-Play (and because Role-Playing is awesome). On the topic of Role-Play OOC: Is it really wrong for a quick point to be sorted out in the shoutbox? If I've got a minor note or two for someone I want taken care of without wasting someone's time checking that "NEW!" mark that turns out to be a 2-liner in the topic, then why should I when a quick comment can be made instead? When compared to the shoutbox, PM'ing is a hassle outside of specifically personal conversation.
On "where do we draw the line?": Here is a pretty good spot. I would be against personal chat rooms, or even group chat rooms, because THAT is when the forum would ACTUALLY start looking like other forms of social media. Thing is that, as it stands, the forum is not like social media despite the fact that socializing really is one of the primary functions it serves. Have you even seen a shoutbox on Facebook? No! Because you couldn't have that, that's why they have private chat rooms. We have things like this because our community is small, and generally gracious. I've personally yet to see any major explosions on the shoutbox, and I know what an explosion looks like better than almost anyone. Why? Because I HAVE exploded, on the old forum, and many times. I argued dawn-to-dusk with AbbotAlf, we couldn't find anything to agree on. We didn't need a shoutbox to argue in, it happened anyway, and far worse I might add. Over time, we managed to become friends, but the fact remains the fault was in us. Same thing goes here, the thought that keeps coming back to my mind when I see people complaining about the shoutbox is that they're always trying to pin the blame for this that and the other thing on the shoutbox feature. The forum as a WHOLE is entirely unnecessary, so why does it exist? Purely convenience, it is for enjoyment, a way to connect. The shoutbox is the same way, it's for convenience, enjoyment, connection. Just because it's not for you doesn't mean you should destroy it.
@danflorreguba: Amen. Couldn't agree more.
Here's my new book! No chapters or page numbers yet, but maybe I can add those in later. ;)
Quote from: danflorreguba on June 19, 2016, 11:00:55 PMUsage of [the shoutbox] is purely by choice, even seeing it is by choice.
I have to disagree.
It's not a matter of debate that the shoutbox had become extremely popular, or that it had taken on all of the varied roles I described in my previous post. That is obvious for everyone to see. The trouble is that it did this to the exclusion of the regular forum. If you wanted to know what was going on in a large segment of the community's lives, you were now forced to either use the shoutbox or hope that some of the info from the conversations there trickled down to grace the rest of the forum. I'm not sure it's fair to say something is a "choice" if
not using it inevitably results in getting a subpar experience.
Quote from: danflorreguba on June 19, 2016, 11:00:55 PMPM's aren't as fluid, inclusive, or as fast...Topics take way longer for even a chance at a reply...
Comments on the speed of one method versus another come off to me sounding as much like a complaint about the presentation of the forum>board>topic system than they do praise for the shoutbox. There are things that could conceivably be done to make it faster and easier to go from post to post. If that's what you all want, then we'll try to find a way to get it done. For an example, one somewhat wack idea I've had is to have every board's contents (or at least the most recent topics and posts) on one page. What would you think about that? Do you have some other way of redesigning the index/board pages in mind?
(I do have to admit that doing something with these ideas could take a while, as time and programming skill are both resources in great demand among the Staff's ranks, a detail you might have been able to ascertain by me doing the coding work ;).)Quote from: danflorreguba on June 19, 2016, 11:00:55 PMOn getting to know people: The argument was made that things to know about someone would be lost in the history... Isn't that how it should be? ...
Not the way I see it, though I suppose this is somewhat a matter of personal perception.
I feel that knowledge is cumulative, building on itself. Suppose that we went and burned every book as soon as it became 'outdated'. Imagine how many of the details and nuances of history would be lost to time! I'm interested in knowing about the entire fabric of someone's life, not just how things are at this very moment. Not only is there far more material to appreciate, I think it gives me a better understanding of someone to know both their past
and the present, rather than just the present. Sure, it takes more time, but what is the use of time if it isn't spent gaining a deeper appreciation of the nuances of life? We can flit from one new experience to another, and many do, but I prefer a relationship with some history. (That is why I prefer cats to kittens, a very unpopular stance in this day and age. ;) ) Even if we accept that someone from, say, a year ago is a different person than how they are now, that means that with the board-and-thread system, we effectively have
two people interacting with and communicating a message for our present-day reader to appreciate, not just one. But all of those details are lost in the chaotic mill of the shoutbox.
Quote from: danflorreguba on June 19, 2016, 11:00:55 PMOn traffic in general: Blaming loss of traffic based on activity compared between old & new forum is just blatantly unfair. We lost members the day the old forum went down.
Of course we did. But the fact is that we still have (what I estimated the other day, when I made my "Theme Poll") close to 50 reasonably active members. The list I posted up on "Getting Back Up", which details the regular members we've lost contact with, is not that long now, and it's worth noting that some of those members weren't very active as it is. When we count in the members that have become a bigger, more active part of the community since the old forum went down, I think this effect is a little (
not entirely) overstated.
I grant the point about not getting new members playing a role in the decline. The staff had identified this as a problem even on the old forum, and moving from the Official Redwall Abbey Page That Is Linked To In Every Book to a backwater personal website that no Redwall fan had ever heard of before December 2015 is obviously a step down.
(Incidentally, I do want to comment that if you look specifically for a "Redwall Abbey Forum" in a Google or Bing search, we don't do as badly there. Bing even helpfully suggests that searchers also search for "Loamhedge Abbey Forum", which, given our site's name, has got to help our odds of getting noticed.)The fact is, though, that for May and June, after many of these members have returned, activity should not be down by a full 50%. The fact that it was made me wonder if something else was going on. The few days since we've shut down the shoutbox is too small a sample size to definitively tell anything by, but even so I think it's interesting that since that time we've averaged something like half again as many posts per day as we did before. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the shoutbox had something to do with the decline, especially when we know that if people are having conversations about something on the box, they're probably not making new threads about the same subject.
Quote from: danflorreguba on June 19, 2016, 11:00:55 PM... because THAT is when the forum would ACTUALLY start looking like other forms of social media.
As far as what is or isn't like Facebook, I think the front page of Facebook is recognizably identifiable with the shoutbox -- a "bottomless page" consisting of text dumps from people's stream of consciousness onto the page, with little organization and very little ability to conveniently access old information. Of course, it's more cluttered, but I'd argue that's just because everybody on Facebook has 100+ "friends" using it 24/7. If we set up a RAF Facebook group with 50 people in it, and they used it the same way as they used the shoutbox, I honestly don't expect things would be very much different than how it was here.
Quote from: danflorreguba on June 19, 2016, 11:00:55 PMI've personally yet to see any major explosions on the shoutbox, and I know what an explosion looks like better than almost anyone.
I'll own you the ability to identify explosions based on your previous record, but I do have experience with the shoutbox myself. Since 2014, I've spent more time on the forum than anyone else has, and after it was installed, I used the shoutbox more than anyone else did. Whenever I came on (after a night's sleep, or few hours' absence from the house), I would go back through the history and
extended history to see everything that happened on the box while I was away. I've even gone back through months-old logs to dig out bits of history. I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude that nobody on the forum has spent more time staring at that box's output than I have.
So, I don't feel like I should have to defend myself when I say that after observing the shoutbox and its atmosphere, I saw it had major downsides. Maybe we didn't have so many explosive back-and-forth arguments (although I think that has as much to do with the changes to the community's memberbase as anything else), but I'm not just making things up when I say that more of our Staff discussions about member activity over the past few months, since the new forum was made, have been about things that happened on the shoutbox than the rest of the forum combined (if you don't believe me, ask Matthias, or Lutra, or Dan, or Leatho). We probably could have put a few
more things on the roll if I (the main shoutbox monitor) hadn't felt forgiving and/or hopeful that it wouldn't be repeated.
I have been in instant chat environments. Anybody that has spent some time near a public IRC channel knows exactly what I'm talking about and what environment those places tend to trend towards, namely, that a lot of that discussion isn't fit for human consideration. This is a children's book forum. I personally consider a violation of the serious rules of the community to be a catastrophic failure event, because we must assume that whatever is posted, preteens are reading it and absorbing it. The fact is that I would rather be caught dead wearing a pink suit, shirt and trousers than to let my (or for that matter, anybody I know's) parents read some of what was posted on the shoutbox.
Of course, one might say that the issue was a lack of discipline, and that we should have banned those people from the box. Well, you know, maybe we should have. Of course, we would have heard just as many complaints as we're hearing now about the box going down, but at least that would have taken care of that. But I figure -- why do that when we can just get rid of the box, and -- *poof* -- see all of that behavior (as well as our other box-related problems) magically disappear?
Nobody who knows me and my record can seriously say that I am against adding to and changing the forum. This can't be statistically proven, but I don't think I'd be too far off by saying that we've changed and added more things since I've returned in '14 than since at any other time after the forum's founding and formative months in 2011. A lot of those changes were even my ideas. Trust me when I say it is
not just about what I feel is "necessary" or "unnecessary". I'm passionate about this forum and want to make things as good as possible, and very frequently I've suggested adding things to bring that about.
It just so happens that after observing how people have used the box over the past few months, I'm having a hard time seeing a brighter, better future that has a shoutbox in it.
I greatly prefer the forum without the shoutbox and don't see a need for an alternative. Things have gotten back to the way they were in the Golden Age! ;D
QuoteIt's not a matter of debate that the shoutbox had become extremely popular
And it was popular for a reason, reason being that people liked and used it. I've yet to see this fact even be considered, there's clearly a desire for a chat system from a large block of the community. If I had anything important to say with lasting meaning, I'd put it in a place where it would last, this is basic logic. Thing is, a lot of us are here to hang out with each other, I know I've stayed for the relationships and Role-Plays. The shoutbox let you share the current, little things, without confusing someone that comes along 2 weeks later that tries to respond.
QuoteComments on the speed of one method versus another
Fact of the matter is that you simply can't compete with a live-updating system seeing as that's as fast as it gets. I know I personally have no complaints with the layout, it's understandable, and allows decently quick navigation for pages of text. Is that to say improvements can't be made? Of course not! And if someone gets a good idea, then change things, I'm totally for trying to make the forum better.
QuoteI feel that knowledge is cumulative, building on itself.
This is certainly true, but going back on what I said earlier: "If I had anything important to say with lasting meaning, I'd put it in a place where it would last, this is basic logic." I feel it applies here as well, the posts we do make will carry our personality whether we like it or not. A relationship with history will always be better, but if misconceptions are easy to make when all you have to go on are old blocks of text. On the "two people," example: that's the problem. It may be that things they said at that point had relevance, but what if they don't? I know there I things from my past that I'm glad are off the pages.
QuoteOf course we did. But the fact is that we still have
Even so, the disparity shouldn't be entirely blamed on one thing, and from what I've seen of this topic (and everyone who's against the box), I can't get past the fact that every problem we may be having is subsequently placing the blame on one change, and this seems a bit drastic, all things considered. Admittedly, the Loamhedge Abbey key word helps, but as previously stated, it's just not going to do nearly as much for us.
QuoteAs far as what is or isn't like Facebook
I have to disagree. While it is easily cluttered, and previous information can be tricky to ascertain, the fact remains that it is compact (assuming people are respectfully using spoiler tags for images, I can admit that non-spoiler images in the box are obnoxious), and doesn't demand nearly as much time or effort as a Facebook scroll.
QuoteI'll own you the ability to identify explosions based on your previous record
^ I'm almost insulted ::) :)
I'd be interested in examples, though I can understand confidentiality and things of the like. I'm not (nor will I ever) argue that the box exhibits issues, and I can certainly agree that guidelines, rules, changes, active moderation, etc. would be healthy. My point in all of this is that destruction of the chat feature is too drastic. I can know and appreciate all of your points (which I do), but that simply can't change the fact that my experience with it has been for the better. I've had a sum total of MAYBE 6 really good friends on the forum. Now that the shoutbox came in, I've felt far more connected with people that I formerly never spoke with, some of whom I didn't even know were previous members! Also, what do you plan on doing for those of us who actually did like and use the shoutbox for it's merits? You can take things down and pretend the problem is gone, but we're going to remember. I'm not saying I condone resentment, but you're taking away something of value from a sizable portion of your community.
The shoutbox has its' faults, I have no plan to ever argue against that point as everything (especially online) has issues that will inevitably come up. But the shoutbox has its' advantages as well, and I don't see those being appreciated or, "entertained," (as in entertaining an idea) as much as the downsides, and this makes everything feel biased to me. When a person is in a leadership position, and I've got any reason to think they're acting out of their own interests without as much consideration of those under them, I worry. And I hate to think it, no disrespect meant, but I can't help but think that very thing sometimes.
As far as ideas for modifications go, you could put an age-restriction on the box (so those who don't enter their birthdate can't access it) Yes, they can lie about their age, but it does put up one more safety barrier. Shoutbox bans, posts per minute limits, moderator access to edit shoutbox messages (especially for those non-spoiler images -_-), etc. could all be things considered to protect kids, encourage activity elsewhere, etc.
Quote from: Delthion on June 20, 2016, 05:33:14 AM
I greatly prefer the forum without the shoutbox and don't see a need for an alternative. Things have gotten back to the way they were in the Golden Age! ;D
We shouldn't sacrifice the future to re-create the past. The old forum worked back then, but change is necessary for any good thing. Trying to fit everyone into the same mold simply does not work, and will not make for a new golden age. The golden age is also perspective based, for me, it was when RP's were active, and completed... it's been years since I've seen a golden age.
Giving a peoples everything they want doesn't make it better, that's what I'll say.
Dan, you mentioned something about it being useful for letting people know immediately of posts you want them to see (maybe I read it wrong). An alternative to that is using the @ plug in that allows you to mention people in post, and they get a notification in the Mentions part at the top of the page.
Quote from: Delthion on June 20, 2016, 05:33:14 AM
I greatly prefer the forum without the shoutbox and don't see a need for an alternative. Things have gotten back to the way they were in the Golden Age! ;D
I clearly remember their being two Golden Ages. One when James was first active in 2011-ish when there was that small close knit community who started the forum, and when I first joined and RPs like the Hidden Within the Walls and that Winter one was going on. Also with that, it's when we all had fun doing things in each board, having the DDBs in the Cellars, those fun Forum Games which always got a good laugh, and when everybody felt like a family. I've elaborated on this before, but soon after that, let's say mid to late 2014, it seemed that Age ended. Everybody had an Ask thread, fanfics and RPs were dying, the cellars was just a bunch of literal spam, and the community was slowly drifting away. It got so bad that I didn't post for a good two months, simply because it felt a waste of my time to be here. In 2015 though, I decided to come back and saw many people trying to fix this problem of why all of these things were beginning to happen. Of course, this kept going for the rest of the year, with a few success here and there. Finally, before the forum shut down, it seemed we were on our way to maybe another Golden Age like the last two. But disaster struck, and here we are now. Somewhere where we now have all conjoined once again, having to start from scratch. Those who remembers those types of days brought back real forum staples and topics that we all enjoyed. RPs got a little boost, and the Cellars even looked bright. Then the whole fiasco with the start and now end of the shoutbox happened, with mixed results. Now, I'm not here to start something, but the Shoutbox seemed to have shown us what could happen with these changes. They can of course always be good, but some can be bad. You can decide what what you felt the Shoutbox as, but now, as Del said, things seem to be turning back into a Golden Age. Hopefully, it can really be a good one.
In terms of the "Golden Age" (that I witnessed the downfall of, right when I joined), any reasonable member would assume that the process of recovering from the destruction of the old forum would bring us closer together than ever. However, it has culminated in us being more like social media friends than actual friends. Which, technically we are, but it's my opinion that we're more than just forum friends.
Many people put down this lack of activity to less members and even smaller numbers of incoming members. I disagree. As shown in above posts it's not the number of members, it's the members themselves. For example, I take little to no regret in crediting Ashleg, Sandpaw, Groddil, Skarz, and yours truly for keeping the RP board alive. Writers like Gonff and Leonardo and artists like Leatho and Ashleg fill the Fan Works board with content. Needless to say we have exhausted the topics of Redwall itself and have retreated into overly-thought out posts and discreet polls with a low post rate, leaving the General and Character discussion boards drab and boring. While boards like the Front Lawns/Orchard, Cellars, and Forum Games are a content-consuming black hole, so was the shout box.
The shout box brought the Cellars, Front Lawns, Cavern Hole, and the RP boards into a massive conglomerate of material that essentially recycled discarded posts into a common area of talk. Common areas are meant for many things, you might say. Indeed they are, but the shout box (unintentionally) catered to a specific: spam. As many social media aficionados know well, chat boxes full of different people is best used by those who can type faster than normal. It's a competition of who-can-respond-faster, resulting in a mass of text that is incredibly hard to understand even if you were directly involved.
Thank you and good night!
Also the shoutbox was full of people having different conversations at the same time and interrupting each other, which, to me, demonstrates a lack of basic courtesy.
Angry, typical post of mine is being edited out. Because of course everyone gets on my case for speaking my feelings. It's getting old, guys, find someone else to pick on.
I wasn't paying much attention to this thread, but on the whole I thought everyone was conducting themselves rather well. No one was getting really mad or anything. I think.
Squabbling and arguing is squabbling and arguing, shouting or no. Plus that was my general output on all the shoutbox feedback.
@Corn: I haven't really read through this topic, but what I can see from glancing at some of the posts, I don't think they were exactly squabbling. Or arguing. They were simply debating/discussing whether the shoutbox was needed. Your storming in here and yelling at everyone was slightly rude; the whole point of the topic is to say what you think about the shoutbox.
I'm still a little new here, kinda, and I want to just point out really quick this doesn't leave the best of impressions for people that are just getting here. All these long posts and arguments kinda makes the shoutbox seem like more of a mess/issue than it is.
And I'm not pointing names or naming fingers ( :P ) I'm just suggesting that maybe we should let the staff deal with it, and PM them if you are truly concerned. That's what they're there for, unless I'm much mistaken. ;)
I don't care much about the shoutbox being there or being gone, but I do care about feelings being hurt.
Thank you for that, Fatch. That's all I can say to appreciate that post there.
Well, as one of the most prolific users (and abusers ;D) of the shoutbox, I can certainly say that I miss it. However, it is not an integral part of the forum and time will tell if it was positive or negative.
Just curious, though: Have there been signs of increased activity since the shoutbox removal?
Post output seems to have increased roughly by 50% per day, compared to earlier days in June before the box was removed.
There is one major flaw in this metric, in that I believe the Statistics post count counts all posts equally, which includes those in the Cellars, which were intended to suffer from the box being present, and, of course, all the posts arguing for or against the shoutbox ;), which wouldn't be here if it wasn't gone.
Time and a greater sample size will tell whether or not the box's removal helped the rest of the board in that manner.
Is there a metric for total time spent on the forum? Because I have a hypothesis about that.
I'm just coming back here to say a few things.
A while ago I posted an unofficial poll requesting the feedback from members about the shoutbox being axed, and the results tallied highest in "I didn't know I cared for it so much" and "meh, minor loss" with a few obvious votes from obvious members going to the extremes of "good riddance to bad rubbish" and "it's like I've lost a limb".
Basically, it averages out to forum life going on. However, the exit of the shoutbox has left me thinking. Looking through Funny Post Collection (and some other Cellars threads) it came to my attention that I miss it significantly, and in a way that it's a greater loss then it was originally. We did have some good times with the shoutbox, with memorable quotes like "MY AUTOMATEEK KALISHNOKOV WILL KEEL YOUR FACE" and characters like Rainshadow's Sister being a staple of shoutbox activity. Albeit, that fun came at a price - in for a penny, in for a pound - the amount of spam present surrounding those golden moments took the sheen away.
I know that we can now appreciate those moments in their full glory, in a proper topic, but I do find myself lacking the shout box significantly from time to time. So, yeah, I do actually want it back. A little.
Anyway, that's all I have to say for now.
Can we perhaps do a trial reinstatement of the shoutbox? I kind of miss it- it was fun and made communicating a lot easier. Maybe if you could do a general shoutbox and a shoutbox that was only for spam stuff in the Cellars that would cut the junk. Of course, I don't actually know if that's possible, but its a thought.
I could talk to Matthias about it, but personally I'm reluctant to bring it back to the public use, because I think that it interferes with posting activity in some of the regular forums, and also because I'm still concerned it promotes an atmosphere where people feel like they can say anything, without being bound by rules of order or decorum. I would rather look into new ways to make the normal board>topic>post system faster, more efficient and more accessible.
That would be nice, but so far I've seen no real improvement in the way posts flow. The advantage of the shoutbox (and disadvantage, I suppose) was that it was instantaneous and omnipresent; it was very easy for people to see and reply without the post being "covered" by other activity. The disadvantage being it favors absolute rapid-response and spam, but it was effective at its purpose, and I see no suitable replacement.
Pardon the double post, but I actually have come up with a good idea (for once). What about having something like the shoutbox up top, only it displays the first ___ characters of whatever the 10 most recent posts are? That way, activity is instant, omnipresent, still posted to topics encouraging propriety and diminishing spam.
Or, perhaps, something similar: whatever is posted in one topic (like "The Shoutbox Topic") would instantly appear up top? Then everything would be instant, omnipresent, confined to one topic, and have all the advantages of posting and the shoutbox.
Again, I don't know if these are actually workable, but I am trying to come up with possible improvements.
Quote from: Wylder Treejumper on September 03, 2016, 08:22:22 AMThe advantage of the shoutbox (and disadvantage, I suppose) was that it was instantaneous and omnipresent; it was very easy for people to see and reply without the post being "covered" by other activity.
It seems a little odd to me to say that the posts aren't being covered by other activity, because by its very nature the shoutbox's content is constantly scrolling upwards and getting covered up by new material. I don't clearly see how the standard system is inferior in that respect,
provided that you know what topic the discussion is taking place in and are there keeping up with it.
Quote from: Wylder Treejumper on September 03, 2016, 08:29:29 AM
Pardon the double post, but I actually have come up with a good idea (for once). What about having something like the shoutbox up top, only it displays the first ___ characters of whatever the 10 most recent posts are? That way, activity is instant, omnipresent, still posted to topics encouraging propriety and diminishing spam.
Or, perhaps, something similar: whatever is posted in one topic (like "The Shoutbox Topic") would instantly appear up top? Then everything would be instant, omnipresent, confined to one topic, and have all the advantages of posting and the shoutbox.
Again, I don't know if these are actually workable, but I am trying to come up with possible improvements.
I appreciate that.
The idea of having some sort of "recent posts" with visible text in a prominent place has crossed my mind. I'll look through the forum's feature set to see whether it has anything like this already that's just turned off; if not, then I can begin searching for a new modification to achieve this purpose.
I would like to note that this isn't unlike the "Recent Posts"' individual page that already exists; it's just ubiquitous instead of split off into its own thing.
Quote from: James Gryphon on September 03, 2016, 08:38:39 AM
Quote from: Wylder Treejumper on September 03, 2016, 08:22:22 AMThe advantage of the shoutbox (and disadvantage, I suppose) was that it was instantaneous and omnipresent; it was very easy for people to see and reply without the post being "covered" by other activity.
It seems a little odd to me to say that the posts aren't being covered by other activity, because by its very nature the shoutbox's content is constantly scrolling upwards and getting covered up by new material. I don't clearly see how the standard system is inferior in that respect, provided that you know what topic the discussion is taking place in and are there keeping up with it.
What I was thinking of is this situation: You go into, say, the Cellars. You make a new post. The posts shows up on the index. Then, 2 seconds later, something else is posted in the Cellars. Your post is no longer easily seen, and people may not reply quickly because they don't notice the post. An additional advantage is the presence of some/all of the content of the posts, so that others can easily see what you are posting about.
And yes, my first idea was basically just updating the "Recent Posts" page with the characteristics of the shoutbox: instant, and omnipresent.
I feel like both ideas would be good, but the first idea would be easier to implement and be a better overall forum improvement, while the second would be most like the shoutbox, simply modifying the posting method to slow it down slightly and encourage propriety but keeping the single conversation flow pattern.
Quote from: Wylder Treejumper on September 03, 2016, 08:49:11 AM
Quote from: James Gryphon on September 03, 2016, 08:38:39 AM
Quote from: Wylder Treejumper on September 03, 2016, 08:22:22 AMThe advantage of the shoutbox (and disadvantage, I suppose) was that it was instantaneous and omnipresent; it was very easy for people to see and reply without the post being "covered" by other activity.
It seems a little odd to me to say that the posts aren't being covered by other activity, because by its very nature the shoutbox's content is constantly scrolling upwards and getting covered up by new material. I don't clearly see how the standard system is inferior in that respect, provided that you know what topic the discussion is taking place in and are there keeping up with it.
What I was thinking of is this situation: You go into, say, the Cellars. You make a new post. The posts shows up on the index. Then, 2 seconds later, something else is posted in the Cellars. Your post is no longer easily seen, and people may not reply quickly because they don't notice the post. An additional advantage is the presence of some/all of the content of the posts, so that others can easily see what you are posting about.
But the "NEW" button takes you to the latest post you haven't seen, meaning that it shouldn't really be possible to miss a post.
^I didn't know that. . . Some things are making sense now. :P
I have an idea. Why not have the shoutbox but have rules and a mod just for it? That would cut down on some of the junk at least. If I remember correctly there weren't any rules just for the shoutbox - you were just expected to be a good member. Well, some of us bowed down to temptation and then were made to feel lower than a worm's belly. I don't think it would happen again. Of course, I could be overestimating us all - I do like to do that - but a good set of rules and a mod that's active seems like it would help. A lot.
Was thinking about this this morning, cool to see other people share my opinions.
Corn's idea for a mod makes sense, but James is the only one who can make that kind of time work. Unless you promote a new mod, he'd have to do it. Dino if he wants that or not.
Any hope for a trial run?
Quote from: Sagetip on September 03, 2016, 03:16:28 PM
Unless you promote a new mod,
That's what I meant, Sage.
But you'd impose Mormon laws in the shout box! We couldn't make even highly obscure Terence's to alcohol! *cries* ;)
I'd volunteer, if it weren't for school.
Terence must be highly obscure. I've never heard of him! ;D
/me raises hand
"I'm too melancholic to spam the shoutbox anymore, but I'll take care of it, if you like. 'Course, I understand if you're not exactly too trusting after... previous events.
I would not be able to be a Mod, in all of the civil wars between Members and Mods/Admins I would still take the side of the Members. ;D
Hmm.... well if the majority are in favor...
One thing I do want to emphasize if we're going through with is:
I really like coming on after a day of studying and working to find a whole bunch of new posts. It's been happening a lot lately, and it makes this place a great experience for me. I can't spend much time hanging around in the shoutbox during the day - I usually just pop in at night before I go to bed... sooo....
If you guys get your shoutbox back, please don't leave me alone in the other forum sections! Tnks! :)
I think three months has been a fair amount of time for a trial period.
I've asked Matthias about this subject, and expect that we'll be able to reveal to you whether the shoutbox will make a comeback, or if we'll be exploring other options going forward, before too long.
Quote from: James Gryphon on September 15, 2016, 05:14:37 AM
I think three months has been a fair amount of time for a trial period.
I've asked Matthias about this subject, and expect that we'll be able to reveal to you whether the shoutbox will make a comeback, or if we'll be exploring other options going forward, before too long.
Awesome! :)
Quote from: James Gryphon on September 15, 2016, 05:14:37 AM
I think three months has been a fair amount of time for a trial period.
I've asked Matthias about this subject, and expect that we'll be able to reveal to you whether the shoutbox will make a comeback, or if we'll be exploring other options going forward, before too long.
How long is too long?
It'll happen either when Matthias has time or I don't feel like death warmed over.
Stop the forum, I want to get off.
Hopefully it all returns to normal. I was hoping we didn't have another DEFCON 5 on our hands.
That'd be DEFCON 1. DEFCON 5 is peace and normality. ;)
Everything seems to be working fine now, though?
For me, as an iOS user. I have a Windows computer in front of me, I'll see if there's any problems from there.
Edited from a Windows 7. All clear from here, the same problems are showing up. (some profiles pictures aren't appearing)
Looks okay from my Dell Latitude D620. ;)
Other that, of course, the fact that today the forum has suddenly frozen on and off. (So annoying.)
If there's currently no shoutbox, why, when I'm lurking and not logged in, does the news bar at the top still read "Sorry, you must be logged in to use the shoutbox!"?
False hope.
Allow it to be noted: I'm not permitted to connect cross-platform. So all that other stuff (Discord, Steam, etc.) doesn't work for me.