Poll
Question:
Who's the better FRIEND?
Option 1: Martin
Option 2: Gonff
This will be a poll topic.
Each poll will showcase two characters competing for a common title, along the lines of (EXAMPLE) "Who's the better Skipper?"
Some votes will require logical thinking and others mere opinion.
Do converse, and argue, or agree, or whatever. Enjoy.
I'll update the polls as I please.
Who's the better WARRIOR?
Martin
- 1 (25%)
Luke
- 3 (75%)
Total Members Voted: 4
Luke.
NEXT ONE!
Rollo, I guess.
(This is like asking who's a better baby, my little brother or my friend's little brother.)
Darn, these questions require a good memory! Which one was Rollo? I'll vote Silent Sam because you don't forget him: paw-sucking and pointing.:D
Rollo was the one from Mattimeo who helped solve the prophecy, and he appeared again as a senior citizen in a later book.
Quote from: Ashleg on September 16, 2017, 08:43:09 PM
Rollo was the one from Mattimeo who helped solve the prophecy, and he appeared again as a senior citizen in a later book.
I'm not sure why, but I find your description of him as a "senior citizen" vaguely funny.
Anyway, I voted Silent Sam. Mattimeo-era Sam is a very pleasant character for that book.
Well? He was! ;D
Yes he was. Though I don't think he would be considered a dibbun.
Not in that book, but when he first showed up, he was a Dibbun.
He was even in the show as "Baby Rollo"...
I think Skarzs was talking about Mattimeo-era Silent Sam ;)
^ :P
Your mom.
-_-
New poll?
In the morning.
Who's the better DIBBUN?
Rollo
- 5 (45.5%)
Silent Sam
- 6 (54.5%)
Total Members Voted: 11
New poll. Mute Squirrel wins by one.
Ferahgo, definitely. He was extremely competent, and dangerous even to a badger. Plus he died in a badass way.
I can't believe that got through the "PLEASE BAN ME NOW" Censor.
How did Swartt die again?
Outcast of Redwall spoilers: Flung off a cliff by Sunflash.
Oh, I wasn't aware that Swartt was a Disney Villain. Good to know.
Swartt is one of my favorite villains. More dynamic horde leader that underwent several phases of leadership. We saw him leading a small band and a large army. Both were interesting to see. We even got a family dynamic that's very uncommon with vermin leaders. Felt more fleshed out than most, definitely.
Which might make you think I voted for Swartt. But I didn't. Because I misclicked.
Quote from: Ashleg on September 22, 2017, 05:40:23 PM
I can't believe that got through the "PLEASE BAN ME NOW" Censor.
Fixed. 8-)
Ferahgo is much more interesting as far as the family aspect goes.
voted swartt becus i don't remebemr ferahrgo sorry :D
Who's the better father? That's a tricky one. Was it the one who didn't care about his mate, gave his son to someone else and then left them both to die in a ditch? Or was it the one who was actively involved in a hypercompetitive assassination game with his son? Personally, I say Ferahgo. He actually raised Klitch to at least his teenage years, and he never actively wants Klitch dead, he only retaliates to his attacks, iirc.
Ferahgo is also my favourite character out of the two, if you weren't literally asking who the better father was.
I was asking a mix of the two, and you bring up some pretty valid points.
I voted for Feragho meself.
Quote from: James Gryphon on September 22, 2017, 05:54:00 PM
Quote from: Ashleg on September 22, 2017, 05:40:23 PM
I can't believe that got through the "PLEASE BAN ME NOW" Censor.
Fixed. 8-)
Ferahgo is much more interesting as far as the family aspect goes.
Now it has incorrect grammar. Fix it.
From my memory of Salamandastron, Ferahgo and Klitch never actually attack or do anything against each other. There's one or two moments where there's some violent tension (and a time where Ferahgo thought his son had something to do with an assassination attempt), but ultimately they stay on the same side throughout the entire book.
That said, Swartt is pretty much at the bottom of the list as far as vermin parents go. Besides at least being a pretty successful warlord (giving his son a verminy role model to look up to, at least until they actually met) he was a terrible father. Sawney Rath might make a more interesting comparison, or Riggu Felis.
Sawney Rath was the best father. No questions asked.
Right Felis was horrible.
Swartt is literally at the bottom of the father list. Except maybe for Nimbalo's dad. We don't have an accurate way of gauging their relative horribleness.
Riggu Felis, if I recall correctly, was actually a pretty decent father for a villain. He discouraged infighting between his kids, admonished Pitru for being so bloodthirsty, and tried to encourage Jeefra to stand up to his brother and be more confident. I mean, he did all of these things in a kind of cold, villainous way, but relatively speaking he was a pretty good dad.
I literally just noticed that the Felis family is like a taken-up-to-eleven version of the Greeneyes family. Riggu is like a more evil Verdauga, Pitru is like a bratty Tsarmina, and Jeefra is like an even meeker version of Gingivere.
Jeefra was treated really poorly by Riggu, or was that just me?
Yeah, because his father thought he was a milksop. Which, actually, he kind of was (especially for a wildcat). Still, Riggu Felis was a relatively responsible father, and I was always disappointed when he was killed before Pitru.
As for Swartt, I haven't read Outcast in a long time, but I recall him as particularly callous. Ferahgo seemed much more... involved with his son.
Swartt did not care about marrying Bluefen, but did to safeguard his consolidating power. He did not care about the birth of Veil, did not care when the child was lost after a battle, and did not care when he returned after many seasons. He was an extraordinarily apathetic father. But, we did get to see a vermin leader before he had a child, and in the early days of such a thing. I can't think of another example of that outside Sawney Rath...who was a lot more interested in 'his' child.
Who's the better FATHER?
Swartt Sixclaw
- 1 (11.1%)
Feragho the Assassin
- 8 (88.9%)
Total Members Voted: 9
Feragho wins by a landslide. Or a cliffslide.
Now vote.
Sawney Rath was a very good dad, methinks. He was super good to Tagg.
I liked Sawney. As far as we know, he was more interested in staying above the other vagabonds than trying to be evil, and while Tagg certainly didn't appreciate him much by the time he left, Sawney was always reasonable with him. He wanted to make him the perfect Taggerung, and he would have succeeded and probably made an awesome mentor to the Taggerung if it wasn't for those pesky otter genes. . .
Yeah, and Sawney wasn't biases towards Tagg at all for being an otter.
An interesting relationship. It seems that vermin were almost more lenient towards good beasts than vice versa.
Someone chose Riggu. Why is that?
I think that's a bit of a tenuous position, Skarzs. Sawney hadn't any qualms about killing Deyna's father. Now, I do think Sawney came to care about Tagg, but the original intent was simply a bid to secure power for the Juskarath.
He's undoubtedly a much better father than Riggu Felis. However, Riggu Felis also had messed-up kids.
That's not the point. Sawney didn't kill Deyna's father because he was an otter, he killed him because he was the father of the Taggerung and Sawney wanted the Taggerung. Vermin don't tend to discriminate between killing goodbeasts and other vermin, they're just destructive in general. The Juska clans less so than other vermin hordes in the series.
Right. And the woodlanders weren't destructive. Except to the vermin.
Because of, I don't know, maybe the fact that literally every single vermin except like two will try to murder your family and steal your stuff?
The Gnoffelins and Pygmy shrews and those squirrels in MTW (actual reoccurring groups save for one) as well as multiple hedgehogs, shrews, and voles throughout the series were equally destructive.
And I'm pretty sure there were instances in the Rogue Crew and other books where vermin are hunting a bird or sommat FOR FOOD, because, y'know, that's what they EAT and all, and Woodlanders stopped them because goodness forbid somebeast eat a chicken sandwhich.
Of course the bird helps them later an' whatnot. But they weren't friends prior. So in a way they're beating somebeast up for trying to not die--they just stole his food.
I, for one, can't ever recall any woodlander assaulting vermin for the sole reason that they were hunting birds. Criticize them, perhaps, but attack or interfere? I ran a cursory check through The Rogue Crew, and I saw no such event there. Cite me your example if I'm wrong, but I'm 95% sure that never happened.
As for the other woodlanders you mention, it is important to note that they were the exception to the rule. The pygmy shrews were slavers, and obnoxious, but they were hardly woodlanders in any proper sense of the word. The Gonfelins were not destructive; they stole things from vermin mostly, but had a sort of "thieves code of honor," if you will. Furthermore, it says they joined the Abbey and completely gave up thievery, as well. Finally, the Gawetrybe: let's just say I was totally in for them being devoured by the Warden, and leave it at that.
Other than those, I can only think of Yoofus Lightpaw, Tugga Bruster, some voles (who are really in a sort of grey area as being woodlanders or vermin), and Aggril and whoever that crazy bee lady was. Yoofus really should have been punished somehow, but he wasn't vicious. We know how Tugga Bruster ended up. The voles mostly were killed by vermin. The two hedgehogs were insane.
I fail to see any meaningful comparison between vermin who could basically be guaranteed murderers, and the occasional woodlander who might be unscrupulous or insane, but rarely murderous.
I disagree. Most horde members in the books flee after their leaders are killed, which essentially proves that they're only in it out of fear of their leaders, the first book even specifically mentions that Cluny pressganged people into joining him, and when they refused, he destroyed their homes. However, in later books of the series, the woodlanders are okay with the wholesale slaughter of vermin.
True. But almost inevitably, you find that they simply create smaller raiding groups that, while they are less dangerous, are no less murderous. It's not that the vermin are only evil because they are being compelled to be evil, it is that they are cowardly. Their leaders are dead, so they see no use in continuing what is obviously a hopeless prospect of assaulting a superior force, and retreat. That's not a lack of viciousness, it's self-preservation. The only vermin that we ever see actually give up a life of villainy are those of Castle Marl. In fact, usually, when the hero lets vermin go, they usually come back and attack the hero (or someone the hero cares about). See numerous books for this. Off the top of my head, The Long Patrol is a good example.
Actually, I have a fanfic in production where the water rats of Castle Marl come to Redwall and face discrimination because of the fact that they are vermin, when they are in fact more peaceful than the Redwallers themselves. It's an interesting concept.
I swear the thing about the bird. Let me try to find that.
The Rogue Crew were also murderers. Just because they were only after vermin doesn't mean they weren't. They sing heckin' songs about it fer goodness' sake.
Well, if we agree on the premise that essentially all vermin are murderers, and note that this is an era with no judicial system, the Rogue Crew is essentially a group of vigilantes. Not that I like the Rogue Crew, their book was actually my least favorite of the whole series, but killing murderers is technically a form of extrajudicial justice. And singing songs about blood and death is rather reprehensible, but if their singing is what you take issue with, that's an entirely different issue.
I'm saying that they're no higher up than the vermin who do murder. And more are thieves than murderers. As you said there are a ton of Woodlander thieves.
As Jet said, most join/stay in hordes out of fear.
If I recall correctly, they began the Rogue Crew because vermin murdered their families. And, throughout the series, vermin have proven that often they steal, yes, but in concert with enslaving, torturing, and then murdering whoever they steal from. Rare indeed is a vermin who "just" steals.
I've already said, vermin join hordes because they think they can gain from their leader's conquest. They are held in line by that leader's discipline. When the leader goes, the vermin are defeated, and so they retreat, and create smaller raiding parties that nonetheless murder and kill whomever happens to fall into their path. This is seen throughout the series.
What's also seen is characters being coerced into joining hordes (or being coerced into not leaving) (or being killed because they disagree with said leader) but hey, look, new poll.
Who's the better FATHER?
Sawney Rath
- 6 (85.7%)
Riggu Felis
- 1 (14.3%)
Total Members Voted: 7
Sawney Wins. ;D
BADGERMOTHER CREGGA.
The name just begs to be bellowed.
The near perfect epitome of a Redwallian badger. Insanely fierce, and insanely caring.
Cregga. But Mother Mellus was better. And Bella, come to think of it.
What about Bella? I think Mellus is comparable but Bella was just "eh".
Cregga is best for always.
Yeah, Cregga's da bomb.
hate cregga sooooo CONSTANCE :laugh:
Why do you hate Cregga?
I'm disappointed in you. >:(
Its been forever since ive read the books but I remember not liking her because she was rude in the Long Patrol book to all of her followers with the bloodwrath and all. that was before she was a badgermum though
But the question is about when she's a badgermum.
What I find interesting is how many books she was in. And because of that her death was probably one of the most emotional of the series
To me, it was THE only emotional death in the series.
Everyone is like "ohh, Rose's was so sad", but no other death except maybe Veil's and the Warbeak's made me feel anything.
Yeah, I'm bummed/annoyed if a character I like dies, but I usually feel like they deserve more in terms of a death scene. And Cregga's was amazing.
Indeed.
She probably had one of the most amazing lives in the series, on the same level if not higher than Martin's.
Can we get another poll? Pretty please?
@Ashleg
Who's the better BADGERMUM?
Constance
- 2 (20%)
Cregga
- 8 (80%)
Total Members Voted: 10
Cregga is the best Badgermum! Next poll!
I feel like Damug was more accomplished, but for some reason I liked Raga Bol better as a character.
I will need to reread their books.
Also. . . I found this pic of Damug Warfang.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MpPCpijmIck/UW16XH5VICI/AAAAAAAABtA/1JLDbOuvZ4w/s1600/Damug+Warfang+Portrait.jpg)
And this of Raga Bol.
(https://pre00.deviantart.net/e90e/th/pre/f/2014/157/d/0/raga_bol_portrait_by_yasminfoster-d7kls41.jpg)
(There are some good drawings/pictures out there.)
Can't remember who Damug was. Raga Bol was rather interesting a villain. Maybe not fully fleshed out as such, if I remember rightly, but pretty ruthless in his baddie ways.
Quote from: The Skarzs on September 30, 2017, 10:18:51 PM
I feel like Damug was more accomplished, but for some reason I liked Raga Bol better as a character.
I will need to reread their books.
Also. . . I found this pic of Damug Warfang.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MpPCpijmIck/UW16XH5VICI/AAAAAAAABtA/1JLDbOuvZ4w/s1600/Damug+Warfang+Portrait.jpg)
And this of Raga Bol.
(https://pre00.deviantart.net/e90e/th/pre/f/2014/157/d/0/raga_bol_portrait_by_yasminfoster-d7kls41.jpg)
(There are some good drawings/pictures out there.)
Yeah, YasminFoster has always done great Redwall paintings. A bit too humanlike for my taste in some cases, but good nonetheless.
Quote from: MeadowRabbit on September 30, 2017, 11:21:13 PM
Can't remember who Damug was. Raga Bol was rather interesting a villain. Maybe not fully fleshed out as such, if I remember rightly, but pretty ruthless in his baddie ways.
Damug is the one who blinded Cregga!
New poll!
Who's the better RAT WARLORD?
Raga Bol
- 1 (12.5%)
Damung Warfang
- 7 (87.5%)
Total Members Voted: 8
Damung wins!
Which one was Gabool?
The guy who went mad over a bell and loved a pet scorpion.
Did have a really cool island-operation operation going, though. Gabool serves as the leader who allows other pirate captains to use Terramort if they remain reliably loyal to him. I always wished we could see more of how Gabool corralled that system together to begin with.
I personally always thought it was more interesting than what we saw at Sampetra, and Gabool is more interesting than Ublaz. But Romsca is actually shown to be competent on a higher level, so she gets my vote.
Quote from: MeadowRabbit on October 24, 2017, 05:45:36 PM
Which one was Gabool?
What Crumb said, but most importantly, the main villain of
Mariel.
Gabool is pretty obviously a better pirate than Romsca; he was a great sea captain for many seasons, then became King of All Sea-Rats, the undisputed best pirate. He had riches beyond compare and a fleet of ships captured in pirate operations. Romsca was first mate on a ship behind Conva, briefly became captain after he was killed, and then failed to perform her first mission as commander of her ship. You might like her better but as far as who has proven to be better at being a pirate it's no contest.
Gabool vs. Ublaz or Gabool vs. Barranca would be much more comparable. I think Gabool wins both of those too but it would be closer to apples to apples. Gabool vs. Ripfang (Mossflower) would also be a good one.
I too voted Gabool, but many would argue (and are arguing) that Romsca is better both because they like her and because she was skilled.
Gabool is the better pirate, definitely. But I really liked Romsca.
Who's the better PIRATE?
Gabool
- 7 (58.3%)
Romsca
- 5 (41.7%)
Total Members Voted: 12
New poll.