Why did Martin get Saro and Bragoon to go to Loamhedge? Nothing was there anyway. Except for some old rotted wheelchair. Oh, and why wasn't Martha able to walk? And how did she get cured? I want your opinions please!
Ah believe it vaz av tae dae aboot confidence.
Quote from: Jukka the Sling on October 28, 2013, 08:13:22 PMOh, and why wasn't Martha able to walk?
She was just born like that.
According to the redwall wiki, her reason for her condition is never specified, but was possibly due to the trauma of her grandmother's death (she died of exhaustion upon arriving at Redwall Abbey, and she was carrying Martha, who was an infant then, on her back at the time).
WHOA! My 999th post!!! :D
Martha would not have been cured if Bragoon and Saro had not left. For if they had not left the battle would have gone differently, and Martha's intervention probably would not have happened.
And Tammo took the words from my lips.
Quote from: Redwaller on October 29, 2013, 09:36:10 PM
Martha would not have been cured if Bragoon and Saro had not left. For if they had not left the battle would have gone differently, and Martha's intervention probably would not have happened.
And Tammo took the words from my lips.
Even the 999th post thing
I've always thought that that was one of the weaker points of Loamhedge; I'm sure that Martin wouldn't send Bragoon and Saro off on a mission that wouldn't behold anything forthem, let alone send them on a mission that would lead to there deaths. I think that it was just all added in a very unclever way to have something for book filler. If BJ had thought it out more, it would have made more sence if Bragoon and Co to find the medacine instead of having Martha figure out how to walk on her own. And if you think about it in a certain light, BJ, unintentiolly, mind you, insulted those who are wheelchair bound or have some other sort of handicap. In a way, Loamhedge sort of said that a handicap is just a state of mind were you believe that you have a handicap, and that just believing that you can, in Martha's case, walk if you put yourself to it. That, of course, is wrong. Some people really have true handicaps, and they just can't get up and walk just because they believe they can. But Loamhedge basically said that, if you believe that you can, you can overcome any kind of handicap if you just truely try. This can be considred an insult onto those who are handicapped. BJ might not have ment to say that in Loamhedge, but he could have just rewritten it as so that it turned out that Martha's handicap was really a curable desease. It was refrenced that that was possable for creatures with that peticular disease, but the way Loamhedge was written stated otherwise in a rather negative way. So, it appears that Loamhedge has a pretty big gap in its quality of plotting and its message. But besides this, I don't think that Loamhedge is really a bad book; the adventure is great, and the characters are of pure quality. Just keep in mind next time you read it what its pros and cons are.
Quote from: Redwaller on October 29, 2013, 09:36:10 PM
Martha would not have been cured if Bragoon and Saro had not left. For if they had not left the battle would have gone differently, and Martha's intervention probably would not have happened.
And Tammo took the words from my lips.
Hmm, yes, they probably would have won against the vermin, which would have never formed the situation of the Abbot being in danger... interesting.
But because Martin sent them on the quest, they died. So why would Martin send two beasts to their deaths, just to heal someone who was happy just the way she was?
Quote from: Shadowed One on October 30, 2013, 10:54:11 AM
But because Martin sent them on the quest, they died. So why would Martin send two beasts to their deaths, just to heal someone who was happy just the way she was?
Sort of what I posted, just you sort of drived the point straite home. :)
Quote from: Shadowed One on October 30, 2013, 10:54:11 AM
But because Martin sent them on the quest, they died. So why would Martin send two beasts to their deaths, just to heal someone who was happy just the way she was?
They did choose to die, they could have fled if they had wanted.
Quote from: Redwaller on November 01, 2013, 01:14:16 PM
Quote from: Shadowed One on October 30, 2013, 10:54:11 AM
But because Martin sent them on the quest, they died. So why would Martin send two beasts to their deaths, just to heal someone who was happy just the way she was?
They did choose to die, they could have fled if they had wanted.
That werat might have given chase... although that would be extremely unlikely.
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on October 30, 2013, 02:04:52 AM
I've always thought that that was one of the weaker points of Loamhedge; I'm sure that Martin wouldn't send Bragoon and Saro off on a mission that wouldn't behold anything forthem, let alone send them on a mission that would lead to there deaths. I think that it was just all added in a very unclever way to have something for book filler. If BJ had thought it out more, it would have made more sence if Bragoon and Co to find the medacine instead of having Martha figure out how to walk on her own. And if you think about it in a certain light, BJ, unintentiolly, mind you, insulted those who are wheelchair bound or have some other sort of handicap. In a way, Loamhedge sort of said that a handicap is just a state of mind were you believe that you have a handicap, and that just believing that you can, in Martha's case, walk if you put yourself to it. That, of course, is wrong. Some people really have true handicaps, and they just can't get up and walk just because they believe they can. But Loamhedge basically said that, if you believe that you can, you can overcome any kind of handicap if you just truely try. This can be considred an insult onto those who are handicapped. BJ might not have ment to say that in Loamhedge, but he could have just rewritten it as so that it turned out that Martha's handicap was really a curable desease. It was refrenced that that was possable for creatures with that peticular disease, but the way Loamhedge was written stated otherwise in a rather negative way. So, it appears that Loamhedge has a pretty big gap in its quality of plotting and its message. But besides this, I don't think that Loamhedge is really a bad book; the adventure is great, and the characters are of pure quality. Just keep in mind next time you read it what its pros and cons are.
If we are to accept it as canon then, what's a good explanation that will sort of explain away this problem?
Quote from: Jukka the Sling on November 01, 2013, 05:50:18 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on October 30, 2013, 02:04:52 AM
I've always thought that that was one of the weaker points of Loamhedge; I'm sure that Martin wouldn't send Bragoon and Saro off on a mission that wouldn't behold anything forthem, let alone send them on a mission that would lead to there deaths. I think that it was just all added in a very unclever way to have something for book filler. If BJ had thought it out more, it would have made more sence if Bragoon and Co to find the medacine instead of having Martha figure out how to walk on her own. And if you think about it in a certain light, BJ, unintentiolly, mind you, insulted those who are wheelchair bound or have some other sort of handicap. In a way, Loamhedge sort of said that a handicap is just a state of mind were you believe that you have a handicap, and that just believing that you can, in Martha's case, walk if you put yourself to it. That, of course, is wrong. Some people really have true handicaps, and they just can't get up and walk just because they believe they can. But Loamhedge basically said that, if you believe that you can, you can overcome any kind of handicap if you just truely try. This can be considred an insult onto those who are handicapped. BJ might not have ment to say that in Loamhedge, but he could have just rewritten it as so that it turned out that Martha's handicap was really a curable desease. It was refrenced that that was possable for creatures with that peticular disease, but the way Loamhedge was written stated otherwise in a rather negative way. So, it appears that Loamhedge has a pretty big gap in its quality of plotting and its message. But besides this, I don't think that Loamhedge is really a bad book; the adventure is great, and the characters are of pure quality. Just keep in mind next time you read it what its pros and cons are.
If we are to accept it as canon then, what's a good explanation that will sort of explain away this problem?
I'll have to think that one out...
Don't forget Martha, Bragoon, and Saro weren't the only characters heavily affected by that quest. Fenna was destined to become Abbess of Redwall and was in sore need of some stern correction; nothing like battles, questing, and losing some of your dearest friends to accelerate the process of growing up, especially for a bratty teenager. Spring and Horty grew up to arguably very important jobs as well, and it's doubtful whether or not any of those three would have gotten to where they did -- mentally and literally -- without the whole Martha quest from Martin.
Bragoon and Saro were old; they had lived long, wholesome lives. What better way for two warriors to die than in battle? They didn't appear put out by dying (by my reckoning), so the quest worked out well for everybeast. They would have been bored at Redwall, not unlike Mariel and Dandin, and probably would have died in a similar manner anyway. I'm just speculating, of course. They also took down an evil monster with them -- it's possible the wearat would have wrought more havoc on other beasts if he had been left to live and grow his tribe.
As for Martha, I have two theories: either she wasn't truly crippled and it only took a horrendous surge of willpower to get her footpaws a-moving; or Martin worked some magic in some way.
Regarding the underlying message behind Loamhedge and what Jacques was trying to say about it (apart from the usual friendship and growing up themes, that is), we know he spent a lot of time with disabled children (didn't he begin writing the first novel for blind children in Wales?) so I'm inclined to think he knew what the insulting faux pas were from the start. I found the message to be inspiring, not demeaning. It's all up to how the readers choose to take it.
My two cents. Great posts, everybody!
Osu
Well said! I never thought about Loamhedge that way. Thanks for those two cents. ;)
Good points, Osu!
I was thinking as well that surely Brian had some inkling about what he was writing about as he had originally written Redwall for blind children, so he wasn't about to be insensitive. The fact some people might still take it as that maybe shows it could have -perhaps- been worded slightly differently. I think he was ultimately getting at that being disabled can't stop you from still living your life and you can still be determined and achieve.
Wasn't there other cases in Redwall where characters suddenly overcame their disabilities? I think there was a blind character that could suddenly see. Might be wrong; it's been a while.
I will never think about Loamhedge the same way again..
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on October 30, 2013, 02:04:52 AM
I've always thought that that was one of the weaker points of Loamhedge; I'm sure that Martin wouldn't send Bragoon and Saro off on a mission that wouldn't behold anything forthem, let alone send them on a mission that would lead to there deaths. I think that it was just all added in a very unclever way to have something for book filler. If BJ had thought it out more, it would have made more sence if Bragoon and Co to find the medacine instead of having Martha figure out how to walk on her own. And if you think about it in a certain light, BJ, unintentiolly, mind you, insulted those who are wheelchair bound or have some other sort of handicap. In a way, Loamhedge sort of said that a handicap is just a state of mind were you believe that you have a handicap, and that just believing that you can, in Martha's case, walk if you put yourself to it. That, of course, is wrong. Some people really have true handicaps, and they just can't get up and walk just because they believe they can. But Loamhedge basically said that, if you believe that you can, you can overcome any kind of handicap if you just truely try. This can be considred an insult onto those who are handicapped. BJ might not have ment to say that in Loamhedge, but he could have just rewritten it as so that it turned out that Martha's handicap was really a curable desease. It was refrenced that that was possable for creatures with that peticular disease, but the way Loamhedge was written stated otherwise in a rather negative way. So, it appears that Loamhedge has a pretty big gap in its quality of plotting and its message. But besides this, I don't think that Loamhedge is really a bad book; the adventure is great, and the characters are of pure quality. Just keep in mind next time you read it what its pros and cons are.
You may not realize this, but in a way, you're insulting my sister who has Cerebral Palsy. It's only her left side, though. And you spelled lots of things wrong.
Quote from: MeadowRabbit on November 07, 2013, 12:24:12 PM
Good points, Osu!
I was thinking as well that surely Brian had some inkling about what he was writing about as he had originally written Redwall for blind children, so he wasn't about to be insensitive. The fact some people might still take it as that maybe shows it could have -perhaps- been worded slightly differently. I think he was ultimately getting at that being disabled can't stop you from still living your life and you can still be determined and achieve.
Wasn't there other cases in Redwall where characters suddenly overcame their disabilities? I think there was a blind character that could suddenly see. Might be wrong; it's been a while.
Yes, there WAS old blind Simon, but, no, he couldn't suddenly just see! And you're right - My sister has Cerebral Palsy is married, NOT living in a home, PREGNANT, and guess what? SHE MIGHT BE POOR BUT SHE'S FINE!!!!!!
Cornflower MM
Woa there! How did I insult your sister? I said that Loamhedge unintentionly insults (if it can be called that) those with a handicap. I didn't say anything that made handicaps sound weird or unusual. Why are you getting mad at me? I think you need to re-read my post... :(
P.S: Sorry that I misspelled a ton of words. But thats no reason to get harsh for. Also, you shouldn't get mad at MeadowRabbit; she was just pointing something out.
I was agreeing with MeadowRabbit!!!
This just got a whole lot more complex...
Quote from: Cornflower MM on November 07, 2013, 06:13:08 PM
I was agreeing with MeadowRabbit!!!
Alright, but why are you mad at me?
Exactly. What makes you think that, Ungatt? You really haven't seen the angry side of me yet!
Chill people. I'm not taking sides or anything but Cornflower why would Ungatt post something to intentionally insult your sister. He was just stating an opinion.
ALRIGHT! I'm sorry if I insulted anybody, but can we please move on? This just got really conplicated. ;D
Remember, everybody, if you ever have a problem with another user, you can always either report their post or PM a moderator. :) Back on topic!
So...does anybody have a new theory on the matter?
Yes, does anybody?
What the heck is going on in this post? I just read pg 3 and I'm super confused!