Redwall Abbey

For discussion related to the book Outcast of Redwall.

@James Gryphon: If these topics are considered unnecessary please delete.

It started out as interesting, but the ending was stupid. The moral of the story was basically, "If you're a vermin, you're born evil, always will be evil, even if you sacrifice yourself to save your adoptive mother in the end because maybe you wouldn't have done it if you'd known you'd actually die (????), and the main characters will preach the lesson at the end, rendering the whole story pointless because it was no different from any other Redwall book." I have to say the same for Taggerung - as much as I love the other aspects of the story, making Tagg get adopted by vermin was really pointless.
Besides, two thirds of the book wasn't even about Veil, and when they finally introduced him, they just made vague allusions to him "stealing things" from Dibbunhood to prove he was evil. As an example, they showed him stealing a pit of honey. Really?

No, that wasn't the meaning of the ending. The meaning of the ending is that you AREN'T bound by your birth, he struggled, because of his bitterness and the (justified) qualms of the elders. Eventually, these things lead him to be banished, much like the vole in Eulalia! Then, at the end he proves that vermin are capable of being heroes.

Veil wasn't the subject of the story, Skarlath, Sunflash and Swartt were the main characters, the Redwallians were just added to show depth.

This book should be called something else.
"Sunflash's Magical Journey to Somewhere" would even be more fitting because the book was more about that than Veil.

Outcast of Redwall sounds much cooler though. ;D

It does, but I remember being so peeved that Veil wasn't the main character!


Or we could just call it "The Controversy Book" because that's what it is. Yep.

I remember not minding that Veil wasn't the main character, and finding Skarlath awesome in the highest degree. ;D

@belle: I'd have to reread the sections with just Veil to say for sure (which is hard to do, considering how I like the rest of the book so much, and it'd be hard to pick it up and not read it ;)), but at first glance, reading between the lines of what his wiki article says, maybe it wasn't so much the theft he did as his attitude about it. Redwall Dibbuns "borrow" food all the time, but I don't know that they consistently lie about it when they're confronted. Apparently Veil did and had previously done that.

We also see his darker side come out when he talks about getting rid of Bunfold's honey pot, just out of malice. Maybe Bunfold was mean to him, but we've seen other strict Abbey figures with unruly dibbuns, and none of them that I recall ever responded close to the way Veil did. I think it's fair to say that there was a degree of nastiness there that wasn't present in the other younglings. The poisoning wasn't something he did just out of the blue; it was the (admittedly drastic) culmination of a visible, gradual progression of bad behavior.

Del does have a point with his post. I think it's fair to say that the "meaning" of the ending is ambiguous. Judging by the way Mr. Jacques answered those who wrote him about it, it seems that was exactly the response he was looking for; he wanted his readers to think about it and decide for themselves.

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Talking about the vermin = evil thing in general... I believe Mr. Jacques once said something to the effect of the quote that can be found on Snowfur's page, namely, "Cluny isn't evil because he's a rat.  He's a rat because he's evil."

The problem we can readily perceive here is that the characters can often tell the difference based on the other characters' species, namely, whether they're "vermin" or not.

It's worth noting it wasn't always that way. In the first three books, they did seem unaware of this distinction. Abbot Mortimer is willing to treat the rats with compassion and respect we quickly find out they don't deserve; Martin is concerned about the deceased old searat on the seashore, and the Abbey sees nothing wrong with letting an all-vermin troupe into their walls in Mattimeo. If they remained consistently like this throughout the series, I don't think anyone would have a problem with the perceived bias.

There is some trouble with that, though. If it was written this way, then readers would start asking why the Redwallers are so stupid and naive as to keep letting those who are obviously villains behind their walls, and that they should be able to tell the difference because the bad guys are always certain species... so, for what it's worth, Mr. Jacques was kinda trapped between a rock and a hard place. You can either follow the world's premise of by-and-large racially segregated morality to its reasonable conclusion of prejudice, or you can have the characters remain impossibly, illogically ignorant of the way their world works, and get knocked for that instead.

Needless to say, neither result is very satisfying. It might've worked better to cast just character's personalities, not their alignment, by species, but he would have had to write things differently from the very first book to make that work.

I hate to say it, but I think this issue is something that's probably best left not thought too much about, if we want to enjoy the series the way it's meant to be done.

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Quote from: Ashleg on September 21, 2016, 05:03:47 AM
This book should be called something else.

@Ashleg: I still like my proposed name for it, which I posted on the old forum: "Sixclaw".

Quote from: Delthion on September 21, 2016, 05:11:15 AM
I remember not minding that Veil wasn't the main character, and finding Skarlath awesome in the highest degree. ;D

If I tell ya'll the truth about how I feel about Skarlath, you'll want my head on a pike.

Skarlath was the best bird character and the second best Redwall character to die in the series! ;D

This is just my personal opinion.

I don't know that I agree on Skarlath; if I made a list of who I thought were the best bird characters, I don't think he'd come up in the top #5, and maybe not even the top #10. In my list of protagonists who died, I don't expect he would perform any better. It's not his fault, but he spent too much time doing things off-page, and (perhaps because of that?) he didn't show as much distinct personality as he might've.

Don't get me wrong; he functioned as an incredibly effective sidekick (although he was outdone in that same book by Nightshade), but I'm not sure he's a particularly standout character in his role as a representative of good birdkind.

Quote from: Ashleg on September 21, 2016, 05:03:47 AM
This book should be called something else.

I have always thought the titles of "Eulalia!" and "Outcast of Redwall" should be switched. If you think about it, Orkwil was more important to Eulalia! than Veil was to Outcast, and they were both outcasted.

Maybe so, but Orkwil was only kicked out for a few days before they overturned the decision (admittedly, due to extenuating circumstances), and it was done without too much in the way of hard feelings from either party. Veil left vowing bloody revenge, and never returned. Being outcast was definitely a more significant moment in Veil's life than it was in Orkwil's.

Quote from: James Gryphon on October 15, 2016, 07:36:18 AM
Being outcast was definitely a more significant moment in Veil's life than it was in Orkwil's.

True, but Orkwil being an outcast was a much more important detail in the books plot then it was for Veil even if it kind of did effect Veil himself more than it did Orkwil.

Quote from: alexandre on October 16, 2016, 02:19:03 AM

Quote from: James Gryphon on October 15, 2016, 07:36:18 AM
Being outcast was definitely a more significant moment in Veil's life than it was in Orkwil's.

True, but Orkwil being an outcast was a much more important detail in the books plot then it was for Veil even if it kind of did effect Veil himself more than it did Orkwil.

Not really. :p

Spoiler ahead:

Orkwil could have just as easily discovered Gorath even if he wasn't exiled, though. Veil's exile caused Bryony to leave the Abbey, and kick the plot in motion. If it wasn't for his exile, Sunflash would've been captured or died at the end of the book, and/or, even if Bryony left anyway, she'd be dead instead of Veil.

Mm, Brony dead instead of Veil would've been better.
Upstart mouse left me with a bad taste in my mouth. :P

Welcome to the fifth book in our series readalong event: Outcast of Redwall!

For those who have not already seen, here are a couple things to note before you start discussing:

• Please keep your posts here and in the entirety of the General Discussion board on-topic and constructive. When discussing topics like favorites, it always helps to give reasoning as to why you chose your favorite character, scene, etc. When in doubt, add more! It is always fun to see what other people think and respectfully debate with them.
• If you would like to participate but don't own the book, there are a few resources that may be of use to you. Libby, Audible, and (of course) your local library, are all good ways to rent books/audiobooks for free (Audible is free only for the first 30-day trial). There is no harm in permanently expanding your Redwall collection though if you can afford it!
• If you want even more Redwall discussion, please check out the Recorder on the Wall (http://redwallabbey.com/forum/index.php?topic=10104.0) podcast episodes for the book! Every three weeks we will be posting the relevant episodes, so please check them out. Here are the episodes for Parts 1 (http://traffic.libsyn.com/frustratedfans/Recorder_Episode_22.mp3), 2 (http://traffic.libsyn.com/frustratedfans/Recorder_Episode_23.mp3), and 3 (http://traffic.libsyn.com/frustratedfans/Recorder_Episode_24.mp3) of Outcast of Redwall!
• If you have created any writing, art, voice acting, or any other form of media based on this book and/or its characters, send a link (or image if it is art) to me through PMs and I will share it in this post! Seeing how other people portray the story through their own work is a wonderful way to be drawn deeper into the story and wider Redwall community.

Finally, here are a few guiding questions for discussion if you are unsure what to talk about:

• Who is your favorite character, and why do you regard them as your favorite?
• Who was your least favorite character, and why did they bother you?
• What was your favorite scene? What stuck out to you about it?
• What are your thoughts on the book as a whole? Where does it rank against other Redwall books and why?
• Do you have any theories or small details others may not have picked up on when reading?
• And anything else you want to mention!

Have fun, and happy discussing!

@Cornflower MM, if you feel this should be moved, tell me, and I'll move it somewhere else.

I don't have the book (unfortunately) - I only have the first six books publication-wise - and it's been almost twenty years since I read this book, but, from what I can remember (which is very little), my favorite character was Sunflash - why, I don't remember, other than his golden stripe making him unique.

However, on the whole Veil debate:



• So, was Veil evil all along, or was he driven to evil as a result of a self-fulfilling prophecy and the self-righteous prejudice of the Abbeydwellers, only to rise above his circumstances to make a heroic sacrifice?
• The Redwallers in Outcast of Redwall, especially Bella. Did they really care about Veil, but got tired of his naughty behavior, or were they all jerks in sheep's clothing who pretended to like and accept Veil, but secretly treated him with indifference behind his back? None of this is helped by the fact that Bella intentionally named the ferret Veil because it was an anagram for "evil" and "vile."
• Bryony. Did she really love Veil as though he were her own son, or was she so excited with taking care of him that pretending to be his mother was just a playful game to her—a game she became obsessed over, because she was determined to prove the Redwallers wrong and that Veil really was capable of being good? Also, her reaction to his death. Did she really believe that there wasn't a shred of kindness or good inside of him, or was she so traumatized by his death, and so tired of the Redwallers telling her "I told you so" that she forced herself to agree with them, despite know deep down in her heart that she was right all along and he did have good in him? Or was she perhaps just trying to obey his previous wish that she go back and tell everyone he was bad, including herself?

Now, there is some credit to the Redwallers being racist (in later books):



• It must be nice to be a woodlander in the later books. Basically, as long as they don't intentionally kill any of the "goodbeasts", (vermin are fine, as they would have eventually "tortured, bullied, and/or murdered" some "peace loving" creature somewhere) they can do absolutely anything they want. This includes lying, cheating, and stealing. The biggest example would probably be Yoofus Lightpaw in Rakkety Tam, who steals any number of important items, but is never given more than a slap on the wrist and a good natured head-shaking, and is beloved by all the characters. Didn't this series use to be about a religious order of mice who were renowned for offering aid to anyone, even predators?
• Bragoon and Sarobando invoke moral dissonance like it's going out of style. Their introduction sees them stealing food and drink from a band of vermin; later on, they beat and threaten a small desert "jerbilrat" who's stolen their supplies in a hostile environment, defending their actions on the ground that the name contains the word "rat". Later on still, the group stays with an old dormouse who repeatedly claims to have very little of his own, and Bragoon immediately decides to give him "all they can spare." In the end, when it's discovered that the dormouse actually has an entire cellar full of supplies, both Bragoon and Saro rush to point out that the environment is harsh, Toobledum is simply looking out for himself, but that the young ones are naive to be taken in by his ruse at all.
• Protagonist-centered morality is very much so apparent in some of the later books. While the heroes don't exactly do anything as despicable as the villains, some of them commit acts that would brand them as anti-heroes when compared to earlier Redwall books, yet no one calls them out on it. At one point in High Rhulain, Tiria, who killed a rat by complete accident, gets yelled at by her father for not slaying all the other water rats she found, and the book makes it seem as though killing vermin just because they're vermin is perfectly acceptable.
• Protagonist-centered morality is also apparent in Loamhedge. Bragoon and Sarobando walk up to a band of vermin, insult them, steal the fish they're cooking, and create a scuffle that inadvertently gets one of them killed. Note that they didn't do this because they were on the cusp of starving to death, and the band hadn't yet been seen to do anything more villainous than sit around cooking fish.

Now, a good majority of us fans are teens and young adults, so we hate the "goodbeasts"/woodlanders for being racist. However, let's count off the good vermin in chronological order:



• Gingiviere Greeneyes
• Sandingomm
• Veil Sixclaw (arguably)
• Blaggut
• Squire Julian Gingiviere
• Romsca
• All the water rats in Marlfox at the end of the book
• Grubbage
Not a very big list, is it? (This is not counting all the comic relief villains)

Think about it. They've only encountered a pair of nice wildcats up to Veil, and no good ferrets (and how are they supposed to know everything that goes on with the vermin armies?). They have understandable reasons not to trust Veil based on species alone (not that I'm condoning their behavior). Also, no matter how open-minded you wish the woodlanders to be, they've been attacked countless times by cats, ferrets, foxes, rats, weasels, stoats, and martens. Meanwhile, there's only been a pawful of good vermin and bad woodlanders. If you were them, it'd be understandable that you come regard certain species as "pure evil".

If this line of thinking doesn't make sense, look at this bit of dialogue from The Lion Guard:
Jasiri (spotted hyena): You really think all hyenas are bad, don't you?
Kion (lion): All the ones I've met are.

Can you really blame Kion for this line of thinking if he's never met (or been told of) good hyenas? No. In the same vein, one can not blame the woodlanders for viewing vermin as evil when almost every single vermin they've heard of or encountered has been a thief, a murderer, and/or a slaver (and has been equally cruel to their fellow vermin), with exceptions being able to be counted on both paws.

However, some things for Veil: One of the things listed that makes him "evil" is that as a baby, he'd bite anyone who came near. If you know anything about baby animals, that's only his instinct kicking in—he's a baby separated from his parents and surrounded by strange other species, so he's only trying to defend himself.
But, even bigger, is the Redwaller's attitude toward him. It's implied (I think - remember, it's been a long time since I read the book) that how they punish Veil compared to how they punish the woodlander Dibbuns is rather disproportionate - the woodlander Dibbuns get a slap on the wrist, while Veil gets stuck scrubbing pans and such. Also, he's always regarded with suspicion and is always the first to be blamed when something goes missing and is treated like a ticking time-bomb. This is effectively emotional abuse on a massive scale. Many abuse victims wish harsh punishment on their abusers - Veil was one of the few to actually attempt it. With only his adoptive parent(s) believing him to be good, it's little wonder he ended up the way he did. Abuse victims will constantly lash out and/or close themselves off to others to avoid being hurt (physically OR emotionally) again.

Now, I actually don't hate the Veil storyline. I don't think Jacques wanted the moral of the story to be, you can't change who you were born too, that's just what most people thought because I will admit, it does kind of seem that way. I thought a part of it is about how the redwaller's distrust of vermin is not always valid, how they name him Veil because it kind of means evil (that kind of ruined Bella for me) and how they treat him noticeably worse than other young ones, we've had cases of Dibbuns that have stolen stuff, but the havnt been punished with their nose being pinched or twisted. But I will say that the ending infuriated me. Why has Bryony spent all this time trying to get Veil to come back, and then for him to sacrifice himself for her, only for her to say he would never have changed! He saved her life! I hate Bryony. Not just because of that, but because she was an incredibly boring character. Same with all of the redwallers, for both of the reasons being that they are jerks to Veil, and that they are boring. I especially hate the Abbot for being a jerk to Veil, and then pretending that she was being nice.
Other than that though, I absolutely love this book. I love the characters of Swartt and Sunflash, and their storylines are some of my favorites in the series. Swartt is such a quick and clever villain, and then Sunflash is actually a character you connect with and enjoy. Swartt's journey from having a small band of vermin, to a horde, to getting to salamandastron, to losing his horde, to having a small band again, to finally dying, I love the whole journey. Him combined with his good side villains are extremely enjoyable to read. But like I said, I like Sunflash's storyline too! He is a nice but strong character with good adventures, and his revenge story is a lot better than some others in the series. I like the characters he meets on his adventure, including his friend Skarlath. Also, I love when Veil and Swartt meet each other. Great scenes.
Anyway, besides the Veil storyline, this is one of my favorite books.