Obviously, if you pit an army like the Corpsemakers (which some have said number about 4,000), they're going to have a major advantage over Cluny's horde (which numbered about 500, at least when it was attacking Redwall).
However, what horde or army, relative to their size and to the enemies they had to face, do you feel was the most competent and/or dangerous?
I'll list a few (not all) of the armies for comparison. Feel free to add or consider any of those that aren't listed here.
Cluny The Scourge's Horde
Commander: Cluny the Scourge
Numbers: About 500
Species: Mostly rats; some weasels, ferrets and stoats
Accomplishments: Tore across the continent and killed countless numbers of creatures prior to Redwall. The only force to ever completely succeed in conquering, and briefly holding Redwall Abbey. Met its final defeat after a surprise attack from five hundred Guosim, a thousand Sparra warriors, the surviving Redwallers, Squire Gingivere, and Captain Snow.
The Thousand Eyes Army
Commander: Originally Lord Verdauga Greeneyes; during Mossflower, Tsarmina Greeneyes
Numbers: My memory's poor, but probably 2-3 hundred
Species: Rats, weasels, ferrets, stoats; some foxes after Bane's mercenaries arrived
Accomplishments: Ruled over Mossflower for many seasons, and under Lord Greeneyes, crushed a woodlander rebellion led by the badger Barkstripe. Under Tsarmina, fought and was eventually defeated by a revived Corim, who used a catapult and an artificial flood to destroy Kotir.
The Corpsemakers
Commander: Usually Ferahgo the Assassin; very occasionally his son Klitch
Numbers: Numbered at about 4,000
Species: Rats, weasels, ferrets, stoats, and foxes
Accomplishments: Conquered the Northlands, and killed and plundered untold numbers of creatures in Ferahgo's extremely long career. Besieged Salamandastron, poisoned their food supply, and nearly killed Lord Urthstripe. Broke apart after the Assassin's death and was defeated by an alliance of the remaining Long Patrol hares, the Guosssom (not to be confused with the similar Guosim), and some assorted allies.
Gabool's Corsairs
Commander: Gabool the Wild, King of Searats
Numbers: Probably 4-5 hundred
Species: Rats
Accomplishments: Ruled the oceans for many seasons, capturing ships such as Periwinkle in the process. Finally defeated by a slave rebellion, assisted by Badger Lord Rawnblade, Mariel, and company.
The Rapscallions
Commander: Originally Gormad Tunn, during The Long Patrol, Damug Warfang
Numbers: 1,000
Species: Rats, weasels, ferrets, stoats, foxes
Accomplishments: Attempted to conquer Salamandastron, but was defeated by the massive Long Patrol stationed there. Finally destroyed at the Battle of the Ridge, despite early success, after Long Patrol reinforcements arrived and surrounded them.
The Blue Hordes
Commander: Ungatt Trunn
Numbers: About 7,500
Species: Rats, weasels, ferrets, stoats, foxes
Accomplishments: Defeated an anemic Long Patrol and conquered Salamandastron, becoming the only force to ever succeed in doing so. Starved from lack of food supplies; the survivors were narrowly defeated by a reformed Long Patrol and their allies.
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Looking at the numbers alone, Cluny's horde would seem to be the best overall; the legendary warlord used every trick he knew in conquering Redwall, and they're the only vermin army that did a competent job at fighting a force that was both behind walls, and that later, vastly outnumbered them.
In every other story, the vermin have a sizable advantage in numbers and/or equipment; Redwall is the only book I can think of where this wasn't the case, and yet they still gave a good account of themselves. If Cluny had triumphed over Matthias, who knows; they might have even succeeded in winning the battle!
So let me try to clear this up (great list by the way), we're comparing the amount of vermin vs. Their enemies, and which horde was most effective based on that ratio?
That's correct -- the goal is to determine the best vermin army, "pound for pound (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_for_pound)", and I feel the best way to do that is to consider their achievements and the enemies they had to face in the books.
I agree. Hmmmmm..... Believe it or not, I'd like to say slagar the Cruel's band (if that counts that is). Because he managed to hold off a pretty powerful bunch of creatures and capture a bunch of slaves at the same time. I'm sure it wasn't his first time doing it either. He's just the first one to pop up into my head. I'd probably go back and forth for a while if I remembered all of them
...not sure...a hard choice. Badrang's horde, Gabool's pirates, Cluny's horde and Swartt Sixclaw's horde would be my picks..
The Thousand Eye Army I would say is the most, followed by the Rapscallions. Both of these were highly skilled fighters. The Blue Hordes and the Corpsemakers were also right up there. I think Gulo's horde would have to be considered, not really because of their fighting skills or whatever, but just their size and all round scariness gave them a bit of an advantage.
Urgan Nagru's horde vs all of Southsward
Swartt Sixclaw's horde vs Long Patrol, otters, and squirrels.
Badrang's horde and Clogg's corsairs vs Martin and co, the Rambling Rosehip, Noonvale volunteers, pygmy shrews, Gawtrybe, the Warden of Marshwood Hill and Boldred (altho that was a pretty quick victory from what I can remember).
Vallug Bowbeast, Eefera, Gruven, Dagrab and Rawback vs all of Redwall.
Raga Bol and a crew of 50 vs Redwall
Gulo and his horde of 100 vs Redwall and the Long Patrol.
Pitru and a little more than 60 catguards vs 32 Long Patrol and the otter clans.
The Rapscallions, because they were ferociouse and there leeder was as mad as a hatter.
I would put My money on Ungatt Trunn's Blue Hordes. They would have their overwhelming numbers to their advantage. Also, If they had not been starving, They could have defeated Lord Brocktree's rag-tag army with ease. However, There is no doubt about the outcome of the Brocktree-Vs-Trunn Fight ;).
Cluny's horde. Because they were simply awesome and intelligent, compared to other hordes. I always hated how the hordebeasts werealways dull-witted and stupid. Cluny's horde was actually skilled and could think for itself.
But some of Cluny's horde were "dim-witted too. Ragear, Cheesethief. They weren't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed.
Some, not all. And I thought Cheesethief was pretty smart; for a vermin.
Ferhago's were biggest and they weren't exactly as stupid as the others. Cluny's hoard did conquer the Abbey for a short while though.
Remember that this is the most dangerous horde relative to their size -- "pound for pound", so pointing out that one horde is the biggest doesn't necessarily mean that they win this argument.
The problem with the Corpsemakers is that I didn't feel that they were a huge threat -- without Ferahgo or at least Klitch leading them. As soon as the Assassin died, and his son wasn't available to take over, they were gone, just like that.
I know that happens a lot of the time, but it seems like they ought to be able to have some staying power after the chief is gone. That's the one thing that the Rapscallions (and the Juskarath) achieved that people don't usually think about -- they had a relatively stable (for vermin) transition from one leader to another, and they continued to be a dangerous force for at least a while afterwards.
ungat trunn had ever vermin on planet roughly about 2-3 million
just read there are bout 13 billion vermin on planet who knows???
I like those pathetic rats at the begining of high rulain ;D
cluny is a legendary vermin. i one Redwall book while trying to capture redwall a vermin stated that he did not want to end up like cluny. FTW
That's in my new rp, hundreds of billions. So when I say massive, I mean massive. Remember Gulo? He only had 100 vermin.
The Blue Hordes were definitely the most dangerous. The soldiers wern't cowerds, and just think about how large the army was...
P.S my 500th post!!!
The Blue Hordes
Quote from: Vilu Daskar on May 19, 2013, 11:00:54 PM
The Blue Hordes
I second that. Their numbers were huge, and they conquered Salamandastron.
Ah'm gonna chooze ze Corpzemakerz. Gotta ztay loyal tae ze Weasels!
Probably the Bluehordes. They were strong in number and Ungatt Trunn was pretty smart.
The most dangerous "horde" is obviously the Redwall and Salamandastron "hordes" ... they always win in the end. :)
Probably Cluny's army.
I think that the Juska Bor were perhaps relative to size one of the best vermin armies due to their strong leadership. My other top picks include Swartt's horde, Cluny, and Gabool. Most of the more mobile vermin bands are likely to have more experience and be better at fighting, although they often suffer from infighting ie. Ublaz's navy. Stationary forces tend to have stronger leadership but tend to lack good fighting ability after seasons without action and are therefore more vulnerable ie. my (Nadaz's) rats, the thousand eye army.
Badrang was kinda impressive too since they had to unite all of the northlands to finally beat him, and even that came at a heavy price.
Forgive me for my ignorance oh wise one, but what book was Badrang from? LoL by any chance?
He came from the book, "Martin the Warrior."
Rose dying was a heavy price for us readers and especially the characters- buuuut I think on a macro scale the woodlanders didn't loose that many beasts.
Quote from: The Grey Coincidence on May 06, 2019, 02:07:53 PM
Rose dying was a heavy price for us readers and especially the characters- buuuut I think on a macro scale the woodlanders didn't loose that many beasts.
Hmm...I was always a little confused about how many creatures die in the books....
Yeah. I mean, I think they do explain in some cases but I forget.
They kinda said in "Salamandastron" how many died, but I don't think they give numbers....
Ungat Trunn's Blue Hordes had the most vermin in one horde mentioned in the redwall series, and were the only vermin to capture Salamandastrom.
I would certainly have to agree there. If we are going strictly by organization as well, the Blue Hordes are certainly the most disciplined- capable of drill and complex maneuvers in tight formation, with formal military leadership structures and supply lines. The main problem it has it that its lower leadership is not particularly imaginative, but numbers and discipline can mostly make up for that in most cases.
I like those pathetic rats at the begining of high rulain