I hear a lot " (villain) " we wish had lived, but what about the good guys?
For me it would be Martin's grandma (I forget her name), Ranguvar, Abbot Mortimer, and Warbeak (oh man, I cried when she died ;v;)
Who are yours?
Windred was never confirmed dead, but she probably passed away, marching and working in the slave chain.
I'm sure most people on the forum agree that Rose shoulda lived. Honestly.
Personally, I would've liked to see Mellus live. I mean, she needed to die becuase of the plot, but I liked her and she was a great character.
Oh, Mellus! I liked her too. I knew there was a badger I was forgetting.
Quote from: Sagetip, the hare on July 08, 2015, 02:33:29 PM
Windred was never confirmed dead, but she probably passed away, marching and working in the slave chain.
I'm sure most people on the forum agree that Rose shoulda lived. Honestly.
Personally, I would've liked to see Mellus live. I mean, she needed to die becuase of the plot, but I liked her and she was a great character.
Some of us would argue Rose ain't dead. :P Un-orthodox viewpoints aside. I'm not sure I'm totally willing to accept the death of the hedgehog from
Salamandastron. I find it hard to believe the eel would've bitten a spiked creature hard enough to kill him, and he was a fun character to boot. And another one I can't name ( ::)), the otter from
Rogue Crew that got shot with the ballista through the
unlocked gate... They shouldn't have unlocked the gate honestly.
Now, quick question. Is this thread about those that SHOULD have lived, or we WISH had lived? Because Ranguvar didn't stand much of a chance, Warbeak and her tribe nose-dived an army of rats with bows. Sad, most certainly, but they were deaths that were hard to avoid.
Just gonna throw this out there, the Kestral from
Outcast of Redwall.
Kite.
Skarlath was a kestrel. Redwall wiki says so.
I don't think any characters that died should have lived. I don't like threads like these because that's changing the entire story.
And Dan, whether or not Rose is dead is irrelevant. She is no longer present in the story. The idea that she may have lived is a nice thing to think, sure but it doesn't matter since she's never seen again.
Quote from: danflorreguba on July 08, 2015, 03:50:42 PM
Some of us would argue Rose ain't dead. :P Un-orthodox viewpoints aside. I'm not sure I'm totally willing to accept the death of the hedgehog from Salamandastron. I find it hard to believe the eel would've bitten a spiked creature hard enough to kill him, and he was a fun character to boot. And another one I can't name ( ::)), the otter from Rogue Crew that got shot with the ballista through the unlocked gate... They shouldn't have unlocked the gate honestly.
Now, quick question. Is this thread about those that SHOULD have lived, or we WISH had lived? Because Ranguvar didn't stand much of a chance, Warbeak and her tribe nose-dived an army of rats with bows. Sad, most certainly, but they were deaths that were hard to avoid.
Just gonna throw this out there, the Kestral from Outcast of Redwall.
Oh geez, by should I meant wish, I thought it meant the same thing :p. Changed it.
Call me cold-hearted, but I don't think Rose should have lived. We can invent all these alternate scenarios, but the fact is that, had Rose lived, Martin never would have travelled to Mossflower, never would have forged his sword, and never would have helped free the woodlanders from Tsarmina's tyrannical rule. Mossflower's history would have been irreversibly changed, probably not for the better.
I still feel that Martin's contributions to saving Mossflower are overrated.
Off-hand I don't disagree with any of the deaths in the series. They're necessary to add emotional flavor to the stories; if nobody ever died or was in any danger it would be pretty boring.
Quote from: Jetthebinturong on July 08, 2015, 05:31:00 PM
Skarlath was a kestrel. Redwall wiki says so.
I don't think any characters that died should have lived. I don't like threads like these because that's changing the entire story.
And Dan, whether or not Rose is dead is irrelevant. She is no longer present in the story. The idea that she may have lived is a nice thing to think, sure but it doesn't matter since she's never seen again.
I should have clarified. Kite is the otter.
I agree that most characters that died were meant to die, especially Rose. She needed to die for Redwall to exist. But Scarleth? Scarleth? Why, why did Brian Jacques have Scarleth die? I loved Scarleth, he really should be lived.
Skarlath...Yeeeah, I agree.
Maybe he killed him off so it would seem more fair since the good guys couldn't spy on the baddies?
Quote from: Sagetip, the hare on July 08, 2015, 06:07:25 PM
Quote from: Jetthebinturong on July 08, 2015, 05:31:00 PM
Skarlath was a kestrel. Redwall wiki says so.
I don't think any characters that died should have lived. I don't like threads like these because that's changing the entire story.
And Dan, whether or not Rose is dead is irrelevant. She is no longer present in the story. The idea that she may have lived is a nice thing to think, sure but it doesn't matter since she's never seen again.
I should have clarified. Kite is the otter.
Yeah.
(Kinda off topic.... I was reading snippets of my copy of TRC the other day in preparation for a oneshot, and I realized that since the crossbow bolt on the
Greenshroud was as thick as the mast (it said so when they were attempting to shoot Lady Violet), when it hit Kite, it either must have torn her body in two or carried it along and pinned it to the Abbey door. Simply awful. :()
There is no way the bolts could have been that thick. :P The crossbow would have to be as wide as the ship would be long.
Yeah, I thought it was a bit weird. Checked that part just now, and apparently I misread it. The bolt is actually half the LENGTH of the mast. :P
I wish that Brian Jacques took the G.R.R.M route and gave us an unexpected woodlander death every now and then, just to remind us that the good guys aren't infallible. Also, Scarlath's death was to give Sunflash a more legitimate reason to hate Swartt. (In my opinion, at least)
Quote from: Lord_Ashenwyte on July 12, 2015, 03:13:00 PM
I wish that Brian Jacques took the G.R.R.M route and gave us an unexpected woodlander death every now and then, just to remind us that the good guys aren't infallible. Also, Scarlath's death was to give Sunflash a more legitimate reason to hate Swartt. (In my opinion, at least)
I agree. I wish Redwall had more deaths then what was given in most of the books :/.
Oh my goodness, where do I start?
EVERY SINGLE INNOCENT LIFE. Seriously, I hate it when innocent characters die. It really sucks :-\ Like, I feel really bad for Mrs. Bankvole and Friar Hugo in Mattimeo (which is my favorite Redwall book). These things also make me hate the enemies more.
Speaking of Mattimeo, I never took Queen Warbeak's death very well.
Of course, I didn't like when Rose died. I think most people will agree with me on that one.
I'm sure there are more. Oh yeah, Shogg and The Mask's deaths... I also hated when those innocent squirrels got killed and even *shudders* eaten in the beginning of Rakkety Tam.
Yeah, Warbeak especially for me, I cried. :'(
I kind of forgot who Mrs.Bankvole was...Rollo's mom?
Swiffo (from The Rogue Crew). Out of all the woodlander deaths, that one was the most abrupt and unexpected for me.
Quote from: Skyblade on July 15, 2015, 03:07:37 AM
Oh my goodness, where do I start?
EVERY SINGLE INNOCENT LIFE. Seriously, I hate it when innocent characters die. It really sucks :-\ Like, I feel really bad for Mrs. Bankvole and Friar Hugo in Mattimeo (which is my favorite Redwall book). These things also make me hate the enemies more.
Speaking of Mattimeo, I never took Queen Warbeak's death very well.
Of course, I didn't like when Rose died. I think most people will agree with me on that one.
I'm sure there are more. Oh yeah, Shogg and The Mask's deaths... I also hated when those innocent squirrels got killed and even *shudders* eaten in the beginning of Rakkety Tam.
Co-sign this! I mean, I even read through the Redwall Cookbook cringing a little because I knew Friar Hugo's days were numbered. And I just love that wild, goofy Warbeak. And Mask! what an awesome spy he was.
I really liked Basil's reaction to Hugo's death. Even though the cook hated the hare in his kitchen, Basil loved the guy and, as a true friend, wanted to carry his body back to Redwall.
I really wish Mask lived... Along with many others.. :P
One of my biggest (and only) issues with The Rogue Crew:
Swiffo's unexpected, unpredictable, unfair death. I had to read this part a few times over before the gravity of what had happened really sunk in. He was born into a clan of bloodthirsty warrior sea otters yet had chosen a life of peace, and despite that choice, his father loved him still. He was the very picture of young and innocent, yet he had the wisdom of a good leader. His death was a hard blow.
On the other hand, Kite the Slayer and Endar Feyblade (which remain two of the best names in the series) are the only casualties of the battle that took place on the Redwall lawns, and Kite died before the battle had truly begun. The battle at the end seemed to easy, too perfect. Numerous Guosim shrews had been earlier killed when run over by the Greenshroud in the River Moss. It was infuriatingly avoidable, but beneficial to the plot. Many innocent and unsuspecting characters died in the book, but the woodlander side got off light in the final battle.
Quote from: Banya on September 04, 2015, 06:52:43 AM
One of my biggest (and only) issues with The Rogue Crew:
Swiffo's unexpected, unpredictable, unfair death. I had to read this part a few times over before the gravity of what had happened really sunk in. He was born into a clan of bloodthirsty warrior sea otters yet had chosen a life of peace, and despite that choice, his father loved him still. He was the very picture of young and innocent, yet he had the wisdom of a good leader. His death was a hard blow.
On the other hand, Kite the Slayer and Endar Feyblade (which remain two of the best names in the series) are the only casualties of the battle that took place on the Redwall lawns, and Kite died before the battle had truly begun. The battle at the end seemed to easy, too perfect. Numerous Guosim shrews had been earlier killed when run over by the Greenshroud in the River Moss. It was infuriatingly avoidable, but beneficial to the plot. Many innocent and unsuspecting characters died in the book, but the woodlander side got off light in the final battle.
I haven't read
The Rogue Crew in a while, so I don't remember the battle all that well, but didn't a Long Patrol hare named Drander also die?
Three or four hares died in the battle along with about six of the Rouge Crew. They lost a few but not as many as you would have thought for the final battle of the Redwall series.
As for woodlanders I wish hadn't died... None really, really there wasn't enough fallen heroes I think, though I was a little bummed about Warbeak's death, it was never particularly cool, she just got shot by some unnamed rat. Though it did add a sense of realism to the story it was depressingly sudden.
Quote from: Izeroth on September 08, 2015, 01:23:40 AM
Quote from: Banya on September 04, 2015, 06:52:43 AM
One of my biggest (and only) issues with The Rogue Crew:
Swiffo's unexpected, unpredictable, unfair death. I had to read this part a few times over before the gravity of what had happened really sunk in. He was born into a clan of bloodthirsty warrior sea otters yet had chosen a life of peace, and despite that choice, his father loved him still. He was the very picture of young and innocent, yet he had the wisdom of a good leader. His death was a hard blow.
On the other hand, Kite the Slayer and Endar Feyblade (which remain two of the best names in the series) are the only casualties of the battle that took place on the Redwall lawns, and Kite died before the battle had truly begun. The battle at the end seemed to easy, too perfect. Numerous Guosim shrews had been earlier killed when run over by the Greenshroud in the River Moss. It was infuriatingly avoidable, but beneficial to the plot. Many innocent and unsuspecting characters died in the book, but the woodlander side got off light in the final battle.
I haven't read The Rogue Crew in a while, so I don't remember the battle all that well, but didn't a Long Patrol hare named Drander also die?
Yes. That was some great writing.
Quote from: Izeroth on September 08, 2015, 01:23:40 AM
I haven't read The Rogue Crew in a while, so I don't remember the battle all that well, but didn't a Long Patrol hare named Drander also die?
He did. I'd forgotten that he died then; in my memory he died earlier, but that's wrong. I remember that he died just as he was developing as a character. Seeing the experience, maturity, humility and fighting skills he was gaining made his death hard, too.
Friar Hugo's death was always really sad for me. I nearly cried when I read it :'(.
Oh yeah, that was sad. :'(
He didn't deserve it, but I guess that's what's needed for the story to keep going.
Friar Hugo, definitely. And Methuselah.
Quote from: Banya on September 08, 2015, 09:43:51 PM
Quote from: Izeroth on September 08, 2015, 01:23:40 AM
I haven't read The Rogue Crew in a while, so I don't remember the battle all that well, but didn't a Long Patrol hare named Drander also die?
He did. I'd forgotten that he died then; in my memory he died earlier, but that's wrong. I remember that he died just as he was developing as a character. Seeing the experience, maturity, humility and fighting skills he was gaining made his death hard, too.
Aye, Drander was one of the few woodlander characters who died that made my heart hurt a little. I wasn't really affected all that much by Swiffo's death- it was unexpected, but I was only just getting used to the kid, and honestly... I was hoping his slayer Ketral Vane would survive the whole time anyway. >.< He was... so cool... for what little time we got to know him.
LATEROSE OF NOONVALE..... Martin the Warrior hold a bit of horror for me after that horrible ending!!! Someone needs to re-write the last couple of chapters...
Am I the only one that is neutral on Rose's death?
I mean, I liked Rose, but she was nothing special to me...Sawwy.
Same thing with Spottedleaf from Warrior Cats.
Everyone went crazy cause she died and I'm just like "Eh..."
Again, she was a decent character, but I didn't really care for her.
Something's wrong with me. :P
Nah, Rose was kind of dull in my opinion.
Good, I'm not alone. :D
Quote from: Ashleg on January 14, 2016, 11:56:49 PM
Am I the only one that is neutral on Rose's death?
I mean, I liked Rose, but she was nothing special to me...Sawwy.
Something's wrong with me. :P
Quote from: Rosey on January 14, 2016, 05:31:07 PM
LATEROSE OF NOONVALE..... Martin the Warrior hold a bit of horror for me after that horrible ending!!! Someone needs to re-write the last couple of chapters...
Already been done, several times, and it doesn't really work.
So true.
Doe anyone remember the vermin (I dont remember his name or what he was so I'll have to say vermin) who got bonked on the head really hard and forgot who he was. Some goodbeasts took care of him and he ended up being a really nice character? I liked him, he later started a ferry service or something and Im pretty sure he died. I was really disappointed. I've reread a couple books and I still havent been able to find him :(
He was in the Pearls of Lutra. . . *Gets book.* Rollo was reading about Fermald the Ancient. . . Not the spoon, before that. . . After the skeleton. . . Oh, Graylunk, a weasel. Apparently he didn't have much longer to live when they did come across him.
:( :( :(
Okay thank you. At least I finally know what book he was in.
It's not Graylunk, it's Grubbage from Triss. Graylunk was only in The Pearls of Lutra as a skeleton.
Grubbage wasn't bonked on the head, though. :P He ended up turning out as a decent fellow and went off to be a boat builder or some such.
Are you sure you're not thinking of Blaggut from The Bellmaker? He became a boat builder.
. . . It's been too long since I've read the books. Yes.
Ill take a look through all those books later and see which one I was talking about haha thank you guys :)
Quote from: Jetthebinturong on January 15, 2016, 02:14:06 PM
It's not Graylunk, it's Grubbage from Triss. Graylunk was only in The Pearls of Lutra as a skeleton.
They did go into depth with Graylunk's story, though, so we were able to tell how he was before he died.
I think it was him. :P
He never ran a ferry service though, he stayed at the abbey after a fight with his friend, reformed, then left, fell down a hole and died.
Maybe they got two characters mixed up.
...And plus...Wow, Graylunk's story is depressing when you put it like that. >.<
Log-a-Log in Mattimeo. Also Graylunk's story in Pearls of Lutra was pretty much what Jet said.
Quote from: Jetthebinturong on January 15, 2016, 11:20:41 PM
He never ran a ferry service though, he stayed at the abbey after a fight with his friend, reformed, then left, fell down a hole and died.
I don't know if he reformed per say. Its more so he came to the abbey with a horrific head wound/skull fracture and was in intense pain. All he could or did basically was whine and moan about the pain. The Abbey got fed up with him but Fermdale took pity and took him up to the attic to live with her. He stayed there a few days and left and then died in that hole/cavern. Im not sure he reformed it seems to have been a case of the pain being so bad that it was all he could think of and thus was not capable of getting up to "vermin activities" even if he had wanted to do so.
Quote from: Grond on October 03, 2018, 06:36:22 PM
I don't know if he reformed per say. Its more so he came to the abbey with a horrific head wound/skull fracture and was in intense pain. All he could or did basically was whine and moan about the pain. The Abbey got fed up with him but Fermdale took pity and took him up to the attic to live with her. He stayed there a few days and left and then died in that hole/cavern. Im not sure he reformed it seems to have been a case of the pain being so bad that it was all he could think of and thus was not capable of getting up to "vermin activities" even if he had wanted to do so.
I could double check but i believe it said in the book that he rambled about not wanting to cause harm (the wrath of Ublaz) to fall upon Fermalde, so i would say partly reformed, in part due to his brain damage/pain
Rose would have had a higher chance of surviving if Martin the warrior was written before Mossflower. The story would have been the same with or with out her
Why would you say that? Badrang could just as easily have killed her, no matter when the story took place.
And Martin the Warrior does take place before Mossflower.
If Brian wrote that book before Mossflower, it doesn't mean anything about the survival of Rose. He could and probably would still have killed her off. I don't follow.
In my opinion, I don't think Rose would have lived if Brian had written Martin the Warrior before Mossflower. However, what I think is more likely is that Rose may not have even existed, and we would have seen a different story. If anything would have changed, it would be Martin's story that he tells in Mosslfower about his past.
Now that would be a wild thing to discover: Rose never existed :o
What about our dear friend from The Long Patrol with the gruffness of a stubborn badger in a sulk, Russa Nodrey? She was one of my favorites! Also one of the first "good-guy" deaths I ever read about in the Redwall series (LP was my first book), so it had a certain weight to it.
Oh yes, her death certainly did hit a blow.
I forgot she died.
SHAME UPON YOU AND YOUR GOAT.
I remember that she died but how did she die? Was it from exhaustion after the march with Tammo?
If she died from exhaustion that's pretty lackluster.
She was killed by a vermin defending baby Russano. (I think, anyways)
Yes, that's how.
Read Long Patrol 2 weeks ago, that's how I know. (amazing book btw)
Quote from: Ashleg on October 08, 2018, 08:00:39 PM
Why would you say that? Badrang could just as easily have killed her, no matter when the story took place.
And Martin the Warrior does take place before Mossflower.
If Brian wrote that book before Mossflower, it doesn't mean anything about the survival of Rose. He could and probably would still have killed her off. I don't follow.
I never said he wouldn't have kill her off I said she would have had a higher chance of surviving.
Had he written Martin the Warrior before Mossflower it be one less reason to kill her off
I went back and reread the part where Martin and Gnoff were in a cell and it just seems like Martin's backstory changed.
Quote from: The Skarzs on October 08, 2018, 10:53:52 PM
In my opinion, I don't think Rose would have lived if Brian had written Martin the Warrior before Mossflower. However, what I think is more likely is that Rose may not have even existed, and we would have seen a different story. If anything would have changed, it would be Martin's story that he tells in Mosslfower about his past.
Four things that could have happened
1. Rose still dies
2. Rose survives and goes with Martin(most likely Martin would have stayed)
3. Rose survives stays home and Martin leaves
4. Rose never existed
Quote from: Sanddunes on October 10, 2018, 09:59:55 AM
Four things that could have happened
1. Rose still dies
2. Rose survives and goes with Martin(most likely Martin would have stayed)
3. Rose survives stays home and Martin leaves
4. Rose never existed
To add to number 2- I guess its possible they would have stayed in Noonvale for a while and then after that Rose and Martin decide to wander or go off on a quest together and make it to Mossflower. But I think the problem with Rose surviving is that Brian Jacques didn't want Martin to have kids or descendants...
I think though that if BJ wrote MTW before Mossflower Rose would have still existed and died. She and her death served an important function to the rest of the series. First of all, the death of Martin's love interest makes Martin into somewhat of a tragic hero, I realize this isn't an exact fit but I use it in the sense that he had suffered a lot. Secondly it also provides a catalyst for Martin to leave the northlands and head south to Mossflower. Absent her death what else could have motivated Martin enough to leave his friends from the Siege of Marshank and subsequent slave rebellion behind ?
P.S. this is off-topic but one thing that left me wondering was why after the end of MTW didn't Martin visit the shores where his tribe lived ? Especially since that would seem like a much more logical place to go to than just going south- an area/direction he knew nothing about...
Well, not only that, but his personality may not have been what it needed to be in order for Mossflower to turn out the way it did. Because of his loss, I feel that Martin changed in a way that helped him find the determination to fight Tsarmina.
Quote from: Grond on October 10, 2018, 05:39:05 PM
To add to number 2- I guess its possible they would have stayed in Noonvale for a while and then after that Rose and Martin decide to wander or go off on a quest together and make it to Mossflower. But I think the problem with Rose surviving is that Brian Jacques didn't want Martin to have kids or descendants...
I think though that if BJ wrote MTW before Mossflower Rose would have still existed and died. She and her death served an important function to the rest of the series. First of all, the death of Martin's love interest makes Martin into somewhat of a tragic hero, I realize this isn't an exact fit but I use it in the sense that he had suffered a lot. Secondly it also provides a catalyst for Martin to leave the northlands and head south to Mossflower. Absent her death what else could have motivated Martin enough to leave his friends from the Siege of Marshank and subsequent slave rebellion behind ?
P.S. this is off-topic but one thing that left me wondering was why after the end of MTW didn't Martin visit the shores where his tribe lived ? Especially since that would seem like a much more logical place to go to than just going south- an area/direction he knew nothing about...
Rose would have had to die for the event of Mossflower to happen but Rose didn't exist when Mossflower was written.
Piknim, from Pearls of Lutra. Her and Craklyn were great partners and friends, and she had a great personality. Not only that, her death was over something so useless as a pearl.
Skor Axhound's younger son. Also, the pearls weren't supposed to be useless. They were supposed to be used to save the abbot and Viola, even though they ended up not being needed.
Oh, I know. It didn't make me feel much better about it, though. Trading one life for another isn't something Redwallers always hold in high regard unless it is a knowing sacrifice.
And when we found out they didn't end up needing them, it just made it kinda worse.
Quote from: The Skarzs on November 27, 2018, 05:31:53 AM
Oh, I know. It didn't make me feel much better about it, though. Trading one life for another isn't something Redwallers always hold in high regard unless it is a knowing sacrifice.
And when we found out they didn't end up needing them, it just made it kinda worse.
Yeah, that did kind of suck.
Another death I thought shouldn't have happened is Bragoon and Saro. Those two were like the only reason why I would read Loamhedge and they both died.
that was bad.
I didn't like when Rose died. I also didn't like the pigmy shrews that died because of whats-his-name from Taggerung.. that was sad.
Quote from: The Witessss on March 02, 2019, 01:17:15 AM
I also didn't like the pigmy shrews that died because of whats-his-name from Taggerung.. that was sad.
Oh yeah, that was the eel Yo Karr, right? I remember that was rather pathetic of the shrews. I mean, feed you kin to a monster so he doesn't eat anyone! that doesn't sound like a great plan to me. I guess they probably thought of as putting the needs of the many above the needs of the few, but still.
it was no well thought out. Actually I was talking about Gruven and how he buried the shrews alive, but the eel incident was terrible, too.
Oh. Woops, my bad. :D
they were both sad to read. :'(
The log-a-log in "Mattimeo" was sad, and the Abbot in "Redwall".
that was super sad. that shrew traitor scum!!!
What about Thura and Dingeye?
I know they were vermin, but they certainly weren't in the villian catagory, and I think mentioning them is within the spirit of the topic. In any case, I never felt that they really deserved their fate.
Misfortune clung to those two like fleas. After deserting Ferahgo's horde, they found their way to Redwall, where they were accepted. They ended up killing someone by accident with a wayward arrow through a combination of recklessness and very bad luck. Then they panicked and fled, after which one died from dryditch fever and the other was killed by Dethbrush, the fox Ferahgo sent after them to kill them for deserting.
It also seems likely that they were the source of the dryditch fever epidemic that plagued the abbey shortly thereafter, particularly given that Thura was the first one to show symptoms.
If they had not fled, Dethbrush would have followed them straight to the abbey, causing more problems.
For most of this, Thura and Dingeye were completely blameless, and even the accident mirrors an incident caused by a reckless Redwaller, one of the main protagonists of the book, no less, who, if his arrow had flown merely an inch lower, would have been guilty of accidentally killing the very same mouse that Thura and Dingeye killed. (Perhaps BJ was trying to send a message here. Weapons are not toys! :D)
In any case, I would have liked to see them stay at the abbey. So many of their flaws seemed to be the direct result of complete ignorance in the ways of woodlanders as well as the harsh reality of living life among vermin. They didn't appear to have any real malice in their hearts. It would have been interesting to see if they would have learned and grown into better beasts. It would have also been interesting to see what would have happed later on when Dethbrush showed up at the abbey door demanding their heads.
Well put.
*Revels in Keldor's wisdom and eloquence*
Although technically they're not woodlanders
Quote from: The Grey Coincidence on May 27, 2019, 04:55:18 AM
*Revels in Keldor's wisdom and eloquence*
Although technically they're not woodlanders
^^^^^^ I second both of those... :)
Quite a worthy first post, Keldor! Welcome to the forum.
I would have liked Skarlath the kestrel to live and continue being with Sunflash.
I would have liked to see what adventures Sunflash and Skarlath would still go on and what other cheeses Skarlath would have helped make.
Anyone who said Rose I agree with. Now Martin won't have his own warrior race!
Quote from: Dante8002 on December 17, 2019, 12:29:13 AM
Anyone who said Rose I agree with. Now Martin won't have his own warrior race!
I agree, but there is one problem... If she had lived, then Martin wouldn't have traveled to Mossflower and built Redwall Abbey.
Although fan fiction writers always find a reason. Such as Martin was always going to end up wandering, or he returned to the caves where he was born, maybe heard the story of Luke, then wanted to find St. Ninian's, meaning he ended up in Mossflower...
Something like that.
Quote from: Booklover on January 01, 2020, 02:28:46 PM
Although fan fiction writers always find a reason. Such as Martin was always going to end up wandering, or he returned to the caves where he was born, maybe heard the story of Luke, then wanted to find St. Ninian's, meaning he ended up in Mossflower...
Something like that.
Hmm... That's kinda interesting. I guess someone should've mentioned that to BJ. :P
Much as I'm sad for Martin and the fact that Rose is dead, I think it was necessary.
Martin cared deeply for Rose, so he wouldn't be tramping around Mossflower in the middle of winter if she was there, especially because Rose cares for him equally and wouldn't let him. If those facts were ignored, they'd both be captured but the vermin would have a very valuable bargaining chip to win Martin's cooperation. Tsarmina was somewhat naive at the time Martin was brought to Kotir but Lord Verdauga would have seen the opportunity and pounced, metaphorically.
During their stay at Kotir, Martin would have found a way to get most of his food to Rose, knowing that she'd be on the same hard rations as him. He'd also be a lot less willing to wait it out in the dungeons, especially if him and Rose were in separate cells. Consequently, once they escaped, Martin would be in worse condition, by quite a considerable bit, and he wouldn't have much energy to run on. When the Corim did decide to rescue them, it would have been significantly harder with three.
Rose would not have condoned Martin's style of defeating Tsarmina either and the wildcat queen probably would have escaped scott free to wreck havoc elsewhere.
One of the things that made Martin such a great warrior was his reckless hate for evil. The fact that he'd stop at nothing to destroy it, even if it might cost him dearly. Rose was more sensible and had a firm hold of Martin's heart and emotions. If she was around, he would have been a lot more risk averse, which could have its benefits but it would also have its drawbacks. Martin wouldn't be able to give his heart into a mission because it was already in the grasp of a very pretty mousemaid that he loved. Much of his passionate hate for evil and tyranny was borne from the grief following the death of the beautiful mouse. The war raging in his heart gave him strength to fight the ones who'd caused grief to so many other beasts and allowed him to sympathize with those who'd lost loved ones, and allowed other beasts to sympathize with him. Rose's death could have been prevented and the story could still work but it would remove some of the depth of Martin's character. I think Brian Jacques knew what he was doing when he let Rose die.
Most importantly, Mossflower was written before Martin the Warrior.
Very nice post, Teer.
It's been a while since I've read the books, so my memory is a bit hazy on all the deaths.
In some cases I kind of wish more woodlanders did die, at least, ones we knew the names of. I like that tragedy because it's real.
Thanks.
Another death which is really sad is Queen Warbeak. (why is it always the cool birds?)
Mattimeo had a lot of sad deaths.
Spoiler
Log-a-log, Warbeak, Friar Hugo. . . All of those were sad, especially since we got to know all of them in the book Redwall.
Swiffo and Kite the Slayer from the Rogue Crew, both otters.
The two deaths at the end of Loamhedge.
do you mean Bragoon and Saro, otter and squirrel, the two who fought the vermin on the log bridge?