Veil's Personality

[Dannflower Reguba]

But you shouldn't have POSTED it in the first place! It should be in one of the talks about the T.V. series, or if there isn't one, make a topic about there.

[Redwallfan7]

Oh... okay. Sorry

[Osu]

Time to get back on topic, yo. But more importantly, let's remember to be courteous to each other at all times in all conversations, and remember to leave the moderating to the moderators.

I don't believe I ever put my two cents in on this conversation, but since I'm here... My views on Veil are fairly black and white. I think he was more lazy and self-centered than anything, which would account for his apparent lapse of "goodness" when he jumped in front of Bryony. I see Veil as an inherent bad guy simply because he did nothing but play the antagonist throughout the story with one obvious exception... and one act of selflessness does not a goodbeast make. All this despite the kindness shown him while growing up. If he never found it in himself to turn around, apologize, and live as a good creature, perhaps the ability to do so was never a personality trait to begin with. As somebody else already mentioned, the apple never falls far from the tree...

Osu, over and out!  

[Tiria Wildlough]

I don't believe in the theory 'the apple never falls far from the tree'. If you're taught something from an early age, that's what you'll learn.
I think Veil was bad because everybeast was suspicious of him. They seemed to expect him to be bad, so he was.

[Dannflower Reguba]

So why would Jaques go through all the trouble of making a book about a vermin that grew up in Redwall and then died if he DIDN'T change? That would be such a waste, I didn't even enjoy that book.

[Lutra]

The expression "the apple never falls far from the tree" is often used when the "apple" lives within range of the "tree" and therefore picks up on all their mannerisms, good traits, bad traits, and everything else in between.  If Veil was the apple, he was as far from the tree as Antarctica is from Asia.   There's no way the fact he was born a vermin species should have mattered if he grew up around goodbeasts.

[Ciaran Galedeep]

I don't believe in the theory 'the apple never falls far from the tree'. If you're taught something from an early age, that's what you'll learn.
I think Veil was bad because everybeast was suspicious of him. They seemed to expect him to be bad, so he was.

I would classify Viel as a "grey" character, an opportunist. much like ramosco in the pearls of lutra. she helped the Abbott out of circumstance. i don't know if veil blocked the shot from his father to save broney or out of spite for the father that never loved him?

[Tiria Wildlough]

Think of it this way: You might really dislike your parent, but do you really want them dead?

[Osu]

It's almost 1am as I type this, so I apologize ahead of time for any weird grammar or typos, haha~

The expression "the apple never falls far from the tree" is often used when the "apple" lives within range of the "tree" and therefore picks up on all their mannerisms, good traits, bad traits, and everything else in between [...] There's no way the fact he was born a vermin species should have mattered if he grew up around goodbeasts.

And yet he displays more of Swartt's traits than Bryony's, or any other abbeybeast. As you stated in the OP, this is inconsistent with what we'd expect from a child raised in a loving environment. Perhaps Veil and Swartt share a personality disorder... For the record, I may have indeed misused the saying; I'm actually not very familiar with it. ^^

I think Veil was bad because everybeast was suspicious of him. They seemed to expect him to be bad, so he was.

Good point, but I disagree with this in that I think very few of the abbeybeasts would have shown Veil any open hostility based solely on his species. Or at least, I don't think they would have prior to the advent of his stealing habits. As far as I can recall, the Friar only condemned Veil based on his history of bad choices, nothing else. Correct me if I'm wrong, been a while since I read the book...
You bring up another good point with not wanting to kill a parent you dislike, though; I actually didn't consider that. On the other hand, he did trap Bryony and Togget in a cave... haha. Such an enigma, our Veil.

I'm inclined to think Veil didn't jump in front of Bryony out of any affection for her, but I can't say he didn't, either. Whatever Veil's reason for saving Bryony, it doesn't change my opinion of his character, so I'll nose outta this one. 

[Skipper]

I'm inclined to think Veil didn't jump in front of Bryony out of any affection for her, but I can't say he didn't, either. Whatever Veil's reason for saving Bryony, it doesn't change my opinion of his character, so I'll nose outta this one. 

Well i belive Veil did redeem himself as he did seem rather sorry to Bryony, but somehow I think he know he was a badbeast.

I was slightly shocked how Bryony didn't say to the Abess when they met each how Veil saved her (I haven't read the book for abit so I'm not certain all of this is true.)

[Redwallfan7]

So I can conclude that he's more to the good side. Any other vermin in the series was never heroic like that. Badrang, Slagar, Tsarmina, and Cluny never saved anyone but their own skins.

[Lutra]

So I can conclude that he's more to the good side. Any other vermin in the series was never heroic like that. Badrang, Slagar, Tsarmina, and Cluny never saved anyone but their own skins.

That is correct, Veil as most would see it, died as a goodbeast for saving Bryony.

I was slightly shocked how Bryony didn't say to the Abess when they met each how Veil saved her (I haven't read the book for abit so I'm not certain all of this is true.)

It is never directly said, though Bryony hints at the fact he had been good, and then done a lot of bad things.  She became kind of wishy-washy on the whole thing at the end.  That's partially why Mr. Jacques himself has never gave a direct answer as to whether Veil was inherently good or bad.  I still think he's good, given all the circumstantial evidence.

[Dannflower Reguba]

Amen, Ditto, I agree.
He was a vermin that fought the status quo.

[notaferret]

It is interesting. I look at it either one of two ways-either Veil truly was trying to save Bryony because he cared about her or he was trying to antagonize his father and didn't realize Swartt threw the spear. He and his dad didn't get along and Veil seemed to take great pleasure in antagonizing him by disagreeing with him on almost everything. He may have sprung to Byony's defense to antagonize Swartt and didn't realize it would cost him his life. Then again, he could have truly cared for Byony and tried to save her. Either way, I don't think Veil realized that he was going to die. If he had, I don't think he would have done it, for whatever reason.
Earlier in the book, when Veil was a baby, it described him as having sly eyes that darted everywhere, never missing an opportunity for his next meal. Veil seemed to me to be sort of an opportunist, the sort of personality that always tries to make sure that the situation turns out to their advantage. He just seemed naturally selfish, which would account for some of his behavior, and the suspicous treatment he would have received at the Abbey as a youngster wouldn't have helped any.

[KaiTheDog]

I personally believe that Veil had the potential to be a good vermin, however because of the unfortunately biased views of the Redwallers it turned him bad. You get called bad so many times you start to believe it, and then you start to act it.