I've been thinking for a bit. You know how the Long Patrol has extreme loyalty for the Badger Lords. How did this start? Why do the hares have such strong Loyalty?
Who knows? It was before Stonepaw's time, so we know nothing about it.
Logistically speaking, I would assume that it started with a friendship between a badger and a hare, perhaps a hare with a large family, similar to the way an otter holt works. The hare's family grew and attracted more hares, and eventually it grew to army-like proportions, and the leadership was passed from Badger Lord to Badger Lord.
With that out of the way, I'm not going to accept any theory put forth by anyone, unless it involves information from Marlfox or Rogue Crew that I'm unaware of. Just like where the carvings and traditions on Salamandastron came from, it's just one of those things that is meant to be a mystery. Every author should have one or two things like that, right?
It is kinda weird. In real life, badgers and hares don't get along whatsoever. Wonder if Mr. Jacques did that on purpose?
Quote from: Nightfire on February 06, 2012, 02:10:16 PM
It is kinda weird. In real life, badgers and hares don't get along whatsoever. Wonder if Mr. Jacques did that on purpose?
badgers are also nocturnal but in redwall they are most active in the day
I've always had this idea that the badgers and hares were the "big kids on the block" apart from vermin, so they're the ones that do the dirty work - assuming the otters remain near a water source for the most part, I suppose the hares'd take Mossflower in general...
As for the dynamic between species, Salamandastron has always been "the badger mountain," so it follows the hares will serve the badger. There have been times where there was no badgerlord and the hares got along just fine on their own, so perhaps badgers only stop by to rule when there's a military emergency of sorts? When that kind of blood-thirsty, unstoppable warrior is truly needed. Not many animals fancy facing an angry badger, in Redwall or in real life. XD
But like Bragoon says, I think it's really just meant to be a mystery. Starbuck and Breeze told Sunflash as much when he first arrived at Salamandastron - something along the lines of, "...whomever wrote that other hares would follow us. That is the way it has always been and always will be." I don't have the book by me or I'd throw the exact quote at you, but there it is.
Maybe Dotti and Brocktree? Brocktree and the mad March hare guy?
I'm part of the "It's meant to be a mystery" camp. The quote Osu was talking about is this one:
Quote from: Mossflower and Outcast of Redwall
"It is written on the walls of our mountain that you would come here someday."
Sunflash straightened up. He stared hard at the hares. "Written, you say. By whom?"
Breeze shrugged. "By whoever wrote that other hares will follow after us. That is the way it has always been and always will be."
well in the book long patrol the hares were wondering why they were following the crazed badger but the only reason they followed was because they were scared i think
Cregga's warriors were just as loyal to her as any other "historic" long patrol. I think they knew she would never intentionally harm one of her own soldiers, but being so wrapped up in her bloodwrath, it's plausible she might have done by accident. She also struck me as not being as close to her hares as other badgers have been, though whether this is because there were so many hares or because she was just antisocial, I'm not sure. All the officers seemed to think her foray into Mossflower was pretty insane, though, I have to say. ;D And let's not forget Rose-Eyes will always be credited as the one badger ruler to get her own warriors to openly defy her. That's what she gets for being so bloodthirsty, in my opinion. *nod* But I don't think they followed her out of fear, like many of Tunn's army did.
I agree with Osu. Remember when Cregga asked Eyebright if he would be able to take care of the mountain while she was gone, and he said that had it been anyone other than herself, they would be "giving satisfaction on the beach"? (not a precise quote, but pretty close) That leads me to think that she was a respected and loved Badger-Lady, just stricken with Bloodwrath on the more extreme side.
It does make me wonder if Asheye was like that in his younger seasons?
Maybe the entire land was overrun by vermin and one badger and a group of hares decide to do someting about it. Thats my opinion.
I wonder how long the badgers and hares must have been at Salamandastron. The books only say a few badger lords before Stonepaw, but there must have been many more
i don't think so, when Brian refered to the old badger lords, he always mentioned the same ones, i bet it would say in the badger lords chamber thingy, where he can see the future like when boar saw he was going to die
Quote from: BadgerLordFiredrake on February 10, 2012, 12:58:58 AM
Maybe Dotti and Brocktree? Brocktree and the mad March hare guy?
Well, I think it is true that Dotti and Bucko Bigbones brought in a much larger, younger set of warriors. However, there were....what? like 60 or 70 warriors that Stonepaw had, so the hare/badger alliance clearly didn't start with Dotti, though it was sort of "revived" if you will at that point.
I also think it was meant to be a mystery....sort of like exactly how old Salamandastron is, or who the first badger lord was.
There seems to be a lot of friendship between the Badger Ruler and his or her hares, so I would bet it started out of friendship. The Long Patrol also seems to grow in size over time. In Salamandastron there are only about two score hares, but there are hundreds by the later books, so I'm wondering how exactly that happened.
Easy. The hares loved eachother and they got married and reproduced! That's how it happens on earth too!
you just ruined the whole 'mystory' thing, dude1
Dotti does have a point is tells you that there were other badger lords, even before stonepaw, and frankly, i think that Jacques wanted it to be shrouded in mystery. there will always be a badger lord and when there's not, one will come shortly.
Quote from: Nightfire on February 06, 2012, 02:10:16 PM
It is kinda weird. In real life, badgers and hares don't get along whatsoever. Wonder if Mr. Jacques did that on purpose?
Probably. ;D
Quote from: Coobreedan on April 03, 2012, 04:18:24 PM
Quote from: Nightfire on February 06, 2012, 02:10:16 PM
It is kinda weird. In real life, badgers and hares don't get along whatsoever. Wonder if Mr. Jacques did that on purpose?
Probably. ;D
I don't agree..... JK!! I do agree!
But Redwall is a fictional series. That's why he wrote about those two species getting along. It would never work in real life, but in Redwall, it works.
I'm planning a fanfic exploring the origins of Salamandastron, a tribe of hares end up being chased out of their home, their leader died while that was happening, her name was Yoliea (hint, hint). And they end up meeting Ceteruler, who helps them settle in to a recently extinct volcano (another hint, hint) thus become firm friends, and haters of vermin. Ceteruler had some trouble with vermin in his past, not saying any more till I get it out.
it has something to do with lord brocktree since he started long patrol and plus he's really old
Quote from: W0NWILL on July 10, 2012, 08:22:58 AM
I'm planning a fanfic exploring the origins of Salamandastron, a tribe of hares end up being chased out of their home, their leader died while that was happening, her name was Yoliea (hint, hint). And they end up meeting Ceteruler, who helps them settle in to a recently extinct volcano (another hint, hint) thus become firm friends, and haters of vermin. Ceteruler had some trouble with vermin in his past, not saying any more till I get it out.
That sounds cool.
What we know is that at one point the whole of Mossflower was terrorised by vermin. We also know that Martin and some woodlanders banded up to try and save the goodbeasts. Hmm... I reckon that after this an unknown badger decided to never let the land of Mossflower and the Western coast be overrun by vermin again, so he went out to find 'perilous hares' and they situated themselves in the mountain, growing in number since then. I suppose at the beginning, when numbers were small, the Badger Lord and the hares became quite good friends, as it was not until Lord Brocktree that regiments and strict army positions, rules and barracks where introduced. So before Brocktree, I believe that the original Badger Lord and the hares would eat all at the same table and sleep in the same room, calling each other by their first names, rather than Sergeant or Captain. In my tale, the original Badger Lord saved the entire group of hares from peril, the first renewed attack on Mossflower after Martin wiped out the verminand that's when they created an actual loyalty to him, more than just friendship. This loyalty was written on the walls of Salamandastron and was followed ever since. This is my belief as to the start of the fighting hares and where their undying loyalty to the Badger Lords came from.
Osu, are are you supposed to be the mad March hare from the North Mountains?
REVIVE
Is it just me that feels that Ceteruler was the latest old Badger Lord? What I mean is he is called Ceteruler the Just whereas the other old Badger Lords have warlike names such as The Wild and Spearlady.
In my view, I believe that the first Badger Lord was Bluestripe the wild. A barbarian from the north who dyed his middle stripe with woad, Bluestripe arrived at Salamandastron with his army of March Hares when it was ruled over by a vermin conqueror. Bluestripe defeated the conqueror and took Salamandastron as his military stronghold. The traditional hares arrived at the mountain and joined Bluestripe's army (The traditional hares interbred with the march hares which is why the Salamandastron hares are the traditional ones and not march hares) Bluestripe stopped his barbaric ways and became an efficient military leader who then became Badger Lord and passed on his title to his daughter Gorse who wielded a spear and so the line went on.
That sounds like an interesting story, Jet!
I think there were hundreds (at least) of badger lords and ladies before Brocktree formed the Long Patrol, myself. I have the idea that the "current" badgers and hares have long forgotten who the first occupants of the mountain were, theoretically because the mountain was first occupied before written records were kept. Like cavemen, for lack of better word. I also have this idea that there was once a very large number of hares there, more than the 2k that Russano commanded, though I don't have much evidence for it. There are so many carved tunnels and passageways, especially deep inside the mountain, that it seems logical.
Quote from: Lord Gorath on November 19, 2012, 02:58:50 AM
Osu, are are you supposed to be the mad March hare from the North Mountains?
Naw, I'm just the Easter bunny. ;D
Quote from: Jetthebinturong on April 14, 2013, 06:57:48 PM
In my view, I believe that the first Badger Lord was Bluestripe the wild.
I agree with Jet on this one. Again going back to my FanFics here, but I have pegged Bluestripe as the first Badger Lord of Salamandastron (sorry if I spelt that wrong- it's a brain teaser!). In regards to the hares, I have them as fellow forge smiths and friends first. Naturally they would band together and fight when trouble arose, but it was under Lord Brocktree that the first order of Long Patrol was assembled.
For those interested, I posted the excerpt for this Bluestripe theory under the Fan Fic section of the Forum, entitled "Mountain and Stone." :P