i always wondered. Where was the sword of Luke and his forefathers made? And when?
i would think it was made in mossflower, and as for when, i cannot accurately guess, but before green eyes (forget his name) invaded mossflower,
Well ya but when? During lord Brocktree?
Oh, no. It was probably made long before even Brocktree's father was born.
Hmf. But it belonged to Luke's father? And before that, and before that.
If you're meaning to ask 'In which book was Luke's Sword forged' then there really is no answer that I know of. Brian left it a mystery--perhaps we can only imagine.
I'd say it was probably forged sometime when Luke lived in Mossflower at St. Ninians'. Then Verdauga Greeneyes showed up and drove Luke's family out and up to the North. Maybe they forged it shortly after they settled north...mice have rather short lifespans, so Luke's great-grandfather very well may have been the head of the Tribe or something. That's what I keep coming back to though, and it bugs me. It seems reasonable to me that Luke's family would have forged the sword after Verdauga drove them out, because they might've realised that they'd need to have some method to defend themselves. But it sounds like the sword was forged long before Luke's time, and that would mean that they already had the sword when living in St. Ninians'... somehow this doesn't seem right and now I've confused myself. lol
Forget that. I think it was forged at Noonvale. I mean really, it would all make sense.
We can't really know where it was forged, or who forged it. What we do know is that Luke's father or grandfather (the first Martin) was driven out of Mossflower by Verdauga Greeneyes, so I would assume it was his. I wouldn't venture to speculate beyond that.
It doesn't make much sense to me that it was forged in Noonvale, Matthiasman. Martin the Warrior's ancestors lived in Mossflower, not Noonvale, and I doubt that a normal sword (I.E., not one made from a meteorite) would last long enough that their family would have had it forged in Noonvale, moved to Mossflower, forgotten about Noonvale (they must have, otherwise, why didn't they go straight there instead of to the coast where they ended up?), and then been driven out.
Just saying. Think of all the traveling Luke's grandfather and father did. I mean ,they had to come from somewhere. Noonvale didn't have to be there yet, but it could have been forged at the place but not the time. If Luke's father was a warrior wouldn't you have a hunch he had an arch enemy? So he must have had some journey to somewhere and gotten something on the way, same for Luke's grandfather.
If Luke and his family were as good warriors as described by the books it wouldn't make sense that they origniated from Noonvale. Noonvale is a place of peace. Also Luke was eager to go to battle since he went to the rats. He wasn't that merciful either. It just wouldn't make sense.
I agree, I can't see noon vale popping out swords and warriors doesn't fit
Luke did have a nemesis, Vilu Daskar.
But I said maybe the sword was forged at Noonvale before Noonvale was ever built, but in the process. Like someone or some group stumbled upon that area and decided to settle. So they could have known an evil guy that Luke's great-great-grandfather or somewhat, wanted to take revenge upon and built an awesome sword.
Maybe after the Noonvalers to-be see the violence, they would renounce it, like Martin did, maybe when Lukes great-great-great-grandfather didn't renounce violence, they banished him, and he traveled to Mossflower, stayed there for a few generations, and were forced up north while Luke was head. Remember when the rules of Noonvale were so uptight?
Any answer to this question will be pure speculation of course, but I very much agree with Bragoon here. The sword being forged in Noonvale makes no sense. Noonvale was a remote location that not many beasts could even find in the first place. The books say that Luke's family originated from Mossflower. They could have quite easily forged weapons of their own there if they had access to metals; a forge is not a terribly difficult thing to build. We have them on carts at our civil war reenactments and the tech is not so advanced that it wouldn't have existed in the Redwall universe. I suppose there's a remote possibility all that about the being from Noonvale then banished and whatnot is the case, but I think it is FAR more likely they are simply from Mossflower. Noonvale is a nice place and all but just because it exists does not make it more likely for Luke's family to have ever lived there. Mossflower is vast and there are many different settlements of creatures throughout it, so its perfectly reasonable to assume Luke's family lived in Mossflower until they were driven away by Verdauga. The Noonvale theory seems too far-fetched to me. But everyone is entitled to an opinion.
Quote from: MatthiasMan on June 23, 2012, 04:23:05 PM
Forget that. I think it was forged at Noonvale. I mean really, it would all make sense.
The people of Noonvale were peaceable creatures. They would never forge a sword. Perhaps one of Luke's ancestors forged it, or maybe it was a gift from someone. Who knows. If it was the sword of Luke's ancestors, then it would definitely NOT be in a Redwall book. The earliest it goes is Lord Brocktree, which is about when Luke was alive, maybe even before he was born.
Quote from: GeminyaTome on July 15, 2012, 02:55:15 PM
Quote from: MatthiasMan on June 23, 2012, 04:23:05 PM
Forget that. I think it was forged at Noonvale. I mean really, it would all make sense.
The people of Noonvale were peaceable creatures. They would never forge a sword. Perhaps one of Luke's ancestors forged it, or maybe it was a gift from someone. Who knows. If it was the sword of Luke's ancestors, then it would definitely NOT be in a Redwall book. The earliest it goes is Lord Brocktree, which is about when Luke was alive, maybe even before he was born.
I agree with you.
I personally think it was simply forged somewhere by somebeast.. What I mean by this is that both will most likely remain nameless.
This brings up another question, the only blacksmiths I've read of in Brian's books were the badgers at Salamandastron, but those I'd imagine were exclusively for the Long Patrol. So, where did all of the other weapons held by vermin, wanderers, foreigners, sailors, etc. come from?? Do you think there were several unmentioned blacksmiths across Mossflower?
Maybe vermin have their own blacksmiths. I would imagine that a place like Sampetra or Marshank would have a smithy.
i would to ???
I tend to agree that Luke's sword was forged by his ancestors or their allies at some time before the saga begins. Also, I think the various vermin made their own weaponry. Usually it is described as ugly and ungraceful, whereas the sword of Martin was strong as well as beautiful. Which is, incidentally, not always the case with people. Sometimes the accepted concept of personal beauty does not denote goodness on the inside, and a rather plain exterior may conceal a lovely personality. Sorry I got off-topic for a bit of observation!
Quote from: AxeHound on January 05, 2013, 05:24:59 PM
Maybe vermin have their own blacksmiths. I would imagine that a place like Sampetra or Marshank would have a smithy.
Well yes and no, The vermin in the
Rogue crew were good at building as well as the one dude that built the boats for the dibbuns. But the vermin in
Rakkety Tam were not good builders, and the Vermin in the book
Martin the warrior,
mattimeo, and
Marlfox used slaves to do all the building.
woah woah, back up back up. where is this whole "lukes family is from mossflower" coming from. I pride myself as a redwall fan and ive read all the books at least a couple of times and nowhere does it mention this!!! o_o
It's from Legend of Luke, they where chased out when Verdauga Greeneyes took over.
guess i have to reread legend of luke :c thanks
Legend of Luke hardback is the book of the month! (Or was) I see that every time I get on.
Quote from: PluggFiretail on March 07, 2013, 11:14:08 PM
Legend of Luke hardback is the book of the month! (Or was) I see that every time I get on.
The book of the month is now Lord Brocktree. But thats gunna change soon...
Before I begin, for the sake of clarity, I will be calling Martin's grandfather "Martin I" and Martin of Redwall "Martin II." We know that Martin I gave Luke the sword and then Luke gave Martin II the sword, so we know the sword is very old. By the time Tsarmina breaks it the sword would be roughly 60 seasons old. We also know for a fact that it had to have been forged in Mossflower, because that is where Luke and his tribe came from. We know Luke's tribe came from Mossflower because of their lore. During The Legend of Luke Winred sings a song about St. Ninians church, the same St. Ninians that appears in Mossflower, Redwall, Mattimeo, and The Pearls of Lutra. Luke also comments that he and his wife, Sayna, were born in St. Ninians.
Because of this the sword must have come from Mossflower region. My guess is it was forged by one of Brocktree's ancestors, if not by Brocktree himself, and given to Martin I, as a symbol of his rank or even to show he was a loyal soldier in the ranks of the woodlanders which Brocktree and his ancestors ruled.
My turn!
Luke's sword came from his father, Martin the Elder Warrior, as he's been called by many to differentiate him from Martin the Warrior of Mossflower. Where this sword comes from, Jacques never tells us for either one of two reasons. Number one, he didn't see it as important (I mean the 'sword' itself doesn't seem to be noted as anything special until Boar got his paws on it), or number two- he wasn't done writing about it before he passed away. Personally, I think he would have been planning an epic about Martin the Elder Warrior, but to that we'll never know now. So here's my take on the whole sword, pulling from my own FanFic so yes, it is not based on "Redwallian" fact as it were.
The sword was a gift from the Badger Lords to Martin the Elder's maternal family. On the deathbed of his mother's father he is giving the blade. It is countless seasons old- being made in the dawning days, and forged from Starstone. Importantly, the blade has never been replaced- the blade will only break if the wielder loses their heart (which is why it breaks with Tsarmina as Martin's heart was still broken over Rose's death). After many adventures with it, Martin the Elder gives the sword to Luke when they journey to Mossflower from Southsward (yes, I have Luke being born in the south and travelling to Mossflower- yes he uses being born at Saint Ninian's as a cover-up for who he really is) and he uses it in battle for the first time against some scouts of the Thousand Eyes Army. The sword will always protect the wielder from harm, it always kept those of their family safe. (More of a psychological reassurance and necessarily magical in property) After Martin the Elder departs the mainland to return to his homeland and Luke is driven north with his 'tribe' and from there we know he gives it to Martin the Warrior. The cycle comes full circle when Boar reforges the blade in the same flames it was born. Never touching the hilt. The hilt of the blade will never be touched. That is the heart of the sword. Even Boar comments on the hilt being a good one when Martin shows it to him.
That's my take on the sword anyways. It is just a fiction theory, but interesting all the same.
I wish that we did know more about some of these things, but it seems Jacques left a few things open to our own imaginations!
Wow! Just a question: how could a sword be forged without the one forging it touching the hilt
Quote from: Romsca on March 27, 2013, 10:21:40 PM
Wow! Just a question: how could a sword be forged without the one forging it touching the hilt
I don't nessisarly know what you mean.
Quote from: Romsca on March 27, 2013, 10:21:40 PM
Wow! Just a question: how could a sword be forged without the one forging it touching the hilt
When I said 'touch' I meant tamper. Sure, others could physically touch the hilt, but it would not be reshaped or reforged in anyway. Boar makes some improvements to it (rebound the handle and added the red pommel stone, but the actual physiology (if that's the right word for it- sorry, I'm not a bladesmith!) is not messed with ;)
If it helps, think of Lord of the Rings when the elves reconstruct the Sword of Elendil for Aragon. They reforge the blade, but the hilt itself is not touch. I think that Jacques was inspired by Tolkien's works with the whole broken sword/reforging sword= broken warrior/reborn warrior, but hey- what's a little sharing themes between authors, right? And no, I'm not saying he copied it, so don't flame me. I'm just stating a logical connection.
Ok, thanks!
Okay here is my take: Luke says that Martin the elder is not his father, he is his GRANDFATHER at the beginning of the book (at the end of the book this changes to be MARTIN'S grandfather so there is uncertainty there) I think it was forged for Martin the elder while he and his tribe lived in Mossflower. When he passed away the sword went to his son (Who may have been Luke or Luke's father) If this was Luke's father then he possessed it until he died and passed it on to Luke. Luke was then driven from Mossflower by Verdauga and it ended up on the north shores where Luke gave it to Martin the warrior.
As to the people saying that Luke's ancestors were the ones who were driven from Mossflower, at the start of the Luke section it says that Luke was the one who was chieftain when they were driven out, just wanted to clear that up.
Quote from: Jetthebinturong on April 13, 2013, 09:18:08 PM
Luke says that Martin the elder is not his father, he is his GRANDFATHER at the beginning of the book (at the end of the book this changes to be MARTIN'S grandfather so there is uncertainty there)
Well, I could call my mother's grandfather my Great-Grandfather, or I could just call him my Grandfather. So, I would go with it being Luke's Grandfather, Martin's Great-Grandfather. Just my opinion...
Quote from: Free Thought on March 29, 2013, 11:58:15 AM
Quote from: Romsca on March 27, 2013, 10:21:40 PM
Wow! Just a question: how could a sword be forged without the one forging it touching the hilt
I think that Jacques was inspired by Tolkien's works with the whole broken sword/reforging sword= broken warrior/reborn warrior, but hey- what's a little sharing themes between authors, right?
Actually in an "Ask Brian" he stated that he had never read Tolkien's work
Quote from: GeminyaTome on April 13, 2013, 09:42:21 PM
Quote from: Jetthebinturong on April 13, 2013, 09:18:08 PM
Luke says that Martin the elder is not his father, he is his GRANDFATHER at the beginning of the book (at the end of the book this changes to be MARTIN'S grandfather so there is uncertainty there)
Well, I could call my mother's grandfather my Great-Grandfather, or I could just call him my Grandfather. So, I would go with it being Luke's Grandfather, Martin's Great-Grandfather. Just my opinion...
Possibly, but it could have been an oversight in editing. I believe in either MTW or Mossflower, Martin says his grandfather's name is Martin as well, I just don't remember which one. Meh, tomat-o, to-mato.Quote from: Jetthebinturong on April 14, 2013, 05:36:06 PM
Quote from: Free Thought on March 29, 2013, 11:58:15 AM
Quote from: Romsca on March 27, 2013, 10:21:40 PM
Wow! Just a question: how could a sword be forged without the one forging it touching the hilt
I think that Jacques was inspired by Tolkien's works with the whole broken sword/reforging sword= broken warrior/reborn warrior, but hey- what's a little sharing themes between authors, right?
Actually in an "Ask Brian" he stated that he had never read Tolkien's work
Oh yes because growing up in England he would have never been exposed to Tolkien's works! ahaha but hey, if he said he didn't, I guess he didn't. Well I guess it all boils down to Beowulf and Homer then. (And by Homer I mean the Greek orator of The Iliad and The Odyssey) ;)
Was that supposed to be sarcastic? If it was, why would he lie?
It was obvious that you were referring to the poet and writer not the idiotic doughnut eater from the Simpsons. I believe he also wrote the Aeniad
The Aeneid was written by Virgil centuries after Homer to appease the Romans and give them a "heroic founder" besides Remus and Romulus.
D'oh, I guess that's what you get for trying to sound smart and getting all your Greek myths mixed up
Quote from: W0NWILL on July 10, 2012, 05:23:25 PM
Maybe after the Noonvalers to-be see the violence, they would renounce it, like Martin did, maybe when Lukes great-great-great-grandfather didn't renounce violence, they banished him, and he traveled to Mossflower, stayed there for a few generations, and were forced up north while Luke was head. Remember when the rules of Noonvale were so uptight?
This is to me the most plausible theory. Though, I doubt the sword existed before Martin the Elder, Luke's grandfather, he was known as a warrior.
I'm just curious...
Just reading over the previous posts on this board and a lot of people seem to think Luke's family originated in Noonvale. Any particular reason?
I mean if Luke's family originated in Noonvale and they were clearly natural leaders, and Rose's family is the ruling family of Noonvale, then one could deduce that they were related somehow; making Martin and Rose... EWWW. *shudders* Just EWWW. Now I know Redwall is a medieval-set series and in the middle ages it was common to marry your cousin, but EWWWW. *shudders again*
Sorry. For me, the Noonvale theory does not fly on those grounds and the fact that if Luke's family came from the north, it is not likely they would have gone back once driven out of Mossflower. I mean, you don't usually go back to the place you left- you left it for a reason right? Under this theory, Luke would have taken his tribe further south into Southsward.
But that's just my two cents and we'll never truly know the answer to our endless pondering and debating...
Quote from: Free Thought on April 18, 2013, 12:21:02 PM
I'm just curious...
Just reading over the previous posts on this board and a lot of people seem to think Luke's family originated in Noonvale. Any particular reason?
I mean if Luke's family originated in Noonvale and they were clearly natural leaders, and Rose's family is the ruling family of Noonvale, then one could deduce that they were related somehow; making Martin and Rose... EWWW. *shudders* Just EWWW. Now I know Redwall is a medieval-set series and in the middle ages it was common to marry your cousin, but EWWWW. *shudders again*
Sorry. For me, the Noonvale theory does not fly on those grounds and the fact that if Luke's family came from the north, it is not likely they would have gone back once driven out of Mossflower. I mean, you don't usually go back to the place you left- you left it for a reason right? Under this theory, Luke would have taken his tribe further south into Southsward.
But that's just my two cents and we'll never truly know the answer to our endless pondering and debating...
Same thoughts here.....
Yeah, whats all this about Noonvale??
Four words. Caves of Luke's tribe. Implies that they lived there, not in Noonvale. Rose and Martin could be related, but waaaaaay far back..
Lukes tribe lived at Saint Ninains. THEN they moved to the caves.Nowhere near Noonvale.