As we all know redwall is an abbey. Does that mean it is religiously affiliated? I've never seen any direct mention of it but there is circumstantial evidence to point to it.
Well in the book Redwall you get more of a abbey feel but I think in all the other books it loses that feel.
Once, (In ask Brian?) Brian said that there is no religion practiced in Redwall.
interesting...
I've wondered this before, but always came to the conclusion that they don't have a relgion.
Brian Jacques stated in an interview (listed on this official site):
"There is no religion in my stories and no hidden meanings. What you see is what you get. The abbey is just a place of peace and comradeship where creatures choose to live together."
End of story. I don't think there's anything else to be said about it. I greatly dislike the idea of religion in Redwall.
Right. Brian said that the animals don't have any religion in the Abbey what so ever. Brian did this to avoid controversy because not everyone thinks the same about religious topics.
While it is true, there is no official religion, you do get a sense of religious order from the first book, as others have said. Remember, it was never meant to be big, so there are all sorts of unusual things/items in that first book that you've not seen again.
Yep, I think that it's an Abbey because they're peaceful.
Quote from: Lutra on August 18, 2012, 11:38:24 AM
While it is true, there is no official religion, you do get a sense of religious order from the first book, as others have said. Remember, it was never meant to be big, so there are all sorts of unusual things/items in that first book that you've not seen again.
bingo
yep there is no religion in Redwall Abbey, yet...
but remember that AbbotAlf0805's signiture is I will lead Redwall Abbey to a golden age of peace through the power of Jesus Christ. so that might be why he has been gone for about a month now.... perhaps he's found a way to Redwall Abbey and is sharing the good news
;)
:0
XD
i didnt think there was i was just curious. ;D
I think Brian Jacques was looking at the more peaceful side of abbey dwellers, and from looking at the map, isn't the abbey essentially Kotir castle? it's in literally the same place. If you look a the characteristics of a castle, it has a great hall, walls, a big courtyard and many other rooms. The abbey is pretty much the same as that, but has had things that one might find in a religious establishment to show their stories and history. And the courtyard would be big enough to have a few trees and a pond in it.
It is almost parallel with Catholicism. But it is still comfortable for anyone to read no matter their religion. Brian Jacques did I good job of keeping a neutral feel in all of the books.
~Trig~
In my opinion, it is definitely a religion. I don't know If Brian wanted it to be like that, but it is, at least from my perspective. Martin seems to be the main being they worship, he helped found redwall after all!
Quote from: SpiderMonkey on August 20, 2012, 06:21:31 PM
In my opinion, it is definitely a religion. I don't know If Brian wanted it to be like that, but it is, at least from my perspective. Martin seems to be the main being they worship, he helped found redwall after all!
I'm not slamming your opinion, but I've never seen the Redwallers worship Martin. True, he's an important figure to their lives and structure, but in all the books I've read I never saw anything about them praying to him or singing to him, which is the base of worship to me.
^
Now that I think about it, you may be right. They don't really pray to him or sing, but I still think redwall is a religous land.
There's no evidence that it's religious at all though. They don't worship anything, pray, have a holy book, or anything. Again, they don't do ANYTHING religious. Enjoying peace and spreading good will is not a religious concept.
@Flandor One thing they do, is the say "grace" which can be seen as religious in certain perspectives. Brian does a good job at keeping it neutral, as I stated before.
I think some of his Catholicism is SLIGHTLY visible... But you have to have the right mindset to notice. It does tread that fine line pretty well. :)
it may have (inadvertently) portrayed Christianity. See link below:
http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Tree_Climber/The_Religon_of_Redwall
I think that there is no real religion in Redwall. They believe in peace and helping other beasts and the pelntiful mother Earth. There is some resemblance to some religion but that doesn't mean that it was intended for Redwall. YOu can think that in your mind but it's mainly for the good of other creatures and MOther Earth.
that religion would be cosmic humanism (living for Mother earth)
Again, the only time you seriously get a sense that the Abbey has any sort of religion attached is you read the first book. There are prayers for food, for peace, and the like. Its less prevalent as it goes on. If Redwall never had any sequel stories or never blossomed into the franchise we know, then our opinions would be reversed here because there clearly are religious overtones in the first book, that definitely have disappeared as time has gone on. ;)
They're animals. I don't think it matters.
Quote from: Lutra on August 22, 2012, 12:33:47 PM
Again, the only time you seriously get a sense that the Abbey has any sort of religion attached is you read the first book. There are prayers for food, for peace, and the like. Its less prevalent as it goes on. If Redwall never had any sequel stories or never blossomed into the franchise we know, then our opinions would be reversed here because there clearly are religious overtones in the first book, that definitely have disappeared as time has gone on. ;)
This, pretty much. A lot of things from the first book have been outright stated to not be canon anymore, just like the horse. lol
brian made it an abbey because it is a peacful place away from the troubles of the world.
Quote from: Griffen on August 18, 2012, 05:39:38 PM
yep there is no religion in Redwall Abbey, yet...
but remember that AbbotAlf0805's signiture is I will lead Redwall Abbey to a golden age of peace through the power of Jesus Christ. so that might be why he has been gone for about a month now.... perhaps he's found a way to Redwall Abbey and is sharing the good news
Thanks bro! :) I have been on a rather long vacation. I play football and that's currently my priority right now so.. ya. I do, however, believe that Redwall Abbey follows some form of Catholicism and/or minor form of Eastern Orthodoxy. But they don't specify it in the series. Also, I don't think they worship Martin. I think they just treat him as their Satron Saint.
Quote from: Flandor on August 20, 2012, 10:52:37 PM
Enjoying peace and spreading good will is not a religious concept.
^THIS.
(Oh hey, I've been gone for a while, haven't I?)
I don't understand why it's so important if Redwall is a religious establishment or not; I mean, we have St. Ninians Church, which was originally a house. It's not like the abbey is full of evil creatures just because they don't pray to or follow the doctrines of a God or Gods. Give me one good example of an Abbot, Abbess, Abbeywarrior, ect. who fits the role of being evil because of that.
Can't do it?
Exactly.
It's a really bad stereotype to assume nonreligious or atheist people (or animals in this case) are bad or morally wrong, because that's not always the case (there might be exceptions, but everything has at least one), and I believe that that world would be a better place if we didn't judge people like that.
When did anyone say that they were evil because Redwall wasn't a religious establishment? You were the first person to even insinuate that!
EDIT: Excuse me. I reread that and it sounded rude. I didn't mean to be. I was just trying to make a point.
Quote from: AxeHound on September 23, 2012, 09:54:23 PM
When did anyone say that they were evil because Redwall wasn't a religious establishment? You were the first person to even insinuate that!
EDIT: Excuse me. I reread that and it sounded rude. I didn't mean to be. I was just trying to make a point.
I agree. Redwall isn't exactly a religious place of peaceful Catholics or a pagan shrine. It's just a place of refuge for the peaceful woodlanders of Mossflower country.
I have thought quite a bit about this over the last few years as I have been reading the books. Brian Jacques did not put religion into the Redwall books and Redwall Abbey is only the name of the building, and is used to describe what it looks like. He did not want it to be exactly like a castle because castles where used for defense, and not much work was put into making them look nice, however, Abbeys where not meant for fighting, and were made to look nice (ex. orchards, flower beds, architecture) but abbeys still had a strong wall around them to keep robbers and small attacks out (if you notice, none of the armies that attack Redwall are equipped to take a castle, but could take the abbey).
I could say a lot more, but don't have the time right now...
I don't think it is, but I couldn't get St. Ninians until I read Luke the Warrior.
Quote from: 321tumbler on November 23, 2012, 01:42:09 PM
I don't think it is, but I couldn't get St. Ninians until I read Luke the Warrior.
Yes same here, btw I think you ment to write
The Legend of Luke.
Quote from: Ruggarion Lunaro on August 19, 2012, 07:35:20 PM
I think Brian Jacques was looking at the more peaceful side of abbey dwellers, and from looking at the map, isn't the abbey essentially Kotir castle? it's in literally the same place. If you look a the characteristics of a castle, it has a great hall, walls, a big courtyard and many other rooms. The abbey is pretty much the same as that, but has had things that one might find in a religious establishment to show their stories and history. And the courtyard would be big enough to have a few trees and a pond in it.
In the books, once Kotir was destroyed by the lake, they built their abbey there. Different building, same location.
Quote from: PluggFiretail on December 14, 2012, 04:44:15 PM
Quote from: Ruggarion Lunaro on August 19, 2012, 07:35:20 PM
I think Brian Jacques was looking at the more peaceful side of abbey dwellers, and from looking at the map, isn't the abbey essentially Kotir castle? it's in literally the same place. If you look a the characteristics of a castle, it has a great hall, walls, a big courtyard and many other rooms. The abbey is pretty much the same as that, but has had things that one might find in a religious establishment to show their stories and history. And the courtyard would be big enough to have a few trees and a pond in it.
In the books, once Kotir was destroyed by the lake, they built their abbey there. Different building, same location.
Yes remember in the book
The long patrol the south wall falls in because it was built
over the great tower of the castle Kotir.
Yeah, redwall is basically a rebuild of kotir, but as a peacful abbey.
Or mayhapz Kotir iz bazically a rebuild o' Redwall...
Quote from: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on June 11, 2013, 09:37:57 PM
Or mayhapz Kotir iz bazically a rebuild o' Redwall...
Kotir was before Redwall. And the only part of Redwall was built on Kotir was the West wall, as stated in
The Long Patrol.
Maybe Redwall's West Wall was above Kotir's gatehouse, which could have been in the West Wall of Kotir, making them in the same location?
Quote from: PluggFiretail on December 14, 2012, 04:44:15 PM
In the books, once Kotir was destroyed by the lake, they built their abbey there. Different building, same location.
Well, yes, we know that Redwall's wall was above part of Old Kotir. But I'm suggesting, perhaps their foundations were laid in the same place that Kotir's were.
Not in exactly the same place, only the west wall.
How do we know that? And if Kotir's West Wall was in the same location as Redwall's, then the rest of the building would be similarly placed.
Redwall is probably much bigger than Kotir.
In The Long Patrol, Tansy and co. figure out that Redwall's south wall was built partially over Kotir's sunken north wall. And then, I don't remember how specifically Brian Jacques detailed this next part, but for me, it seemed like the narration was suggesting that the northwest corner of Kotir's wall was underneath something like the center of Redwall's south wall. When Foremole and his team dig down underneath the wall, they wind up in the hollow remains of Kotir's northwest walltower. In that case, about half of a wall of Redwall is built over Kotir.
Of course, even then, the moles don't dig straight down--they dig a tunnel down on an incline, which other beasts eventually travel down with rope guards on the sides, so the tunnel the moles dig must only be so steep. And that tunnel is what eventually leads to Kotir's Northwest walltower. So maybe, technically, Redwall isn't built directly over any part of Kotir. Just close to it.
I think Mr. Jacques work definitely showcases his Catholic influences for sure, but I do not think the Abbey is a religious place. I think I read some where Mr. Jacques even stated he wanted to keep religion out of his books.
It is obvious Redwall Abbey is mirrored to a degree after monasteries and abbeys of our history but like other people have commented, it is really just a building comprised of good beasts who put kindness and helping others above all.
An abbey is basically a religious charity organization. It may not have religion, but it's an abbey in every other sense of the word. I always figured it was built as a fortress because those who built it had just come out of a massive civil war/ multi-generational occupation that didn't need to have happened, had their ancestors.been more prepared.
Quote from: Ferrousferret on June 24, 2013, 01:44:20 PM
An abbey is basically a religious charity organization. It may not have religion, but it's an abbey in every other sense of the word. I always figured it was built as a fortress because those who built it had just come out of a massive civil war/ multi-generational occupation that didn't need to have happened, had their ancestors.been more prepared.
BJ said himself that he had just used it for the sake of names and stuff like that. He also said that he wanted to refrain from having religion in the Redwall series. ;)
Interestingly, in the first book, Cluny and his horde frequently speak of the Devil/Satan and there is Asmodeus. Basil Stag Hare says Lord, but none of the other books have such references.
Just thought of this today, early morning: Martin is somewhat the guiding spirit of the Abbey. All beasts believe in life after death of a sort.
Yes, in Redwall(the book)you really get that feel of religion. Like when they say, The Order Of Mice and that sort of thing.And of course, the rats, speaking of The Devil, Satan, and Hellsteeth.
Well, Hellgates are often mentioned in all books
(We will send your bones to Hellgates, every single evil one in the Guosim Bladechant, Eulalia)
which is now almost the only remnant of that. Also, the Dark Forest, going to the sunny streams/meadows in Loamhedge, and general life-after-death schemes.
I remember vermin like talking bout maybe some create, and there is hellgates and shady forest
Ah zink zat ze only religion in Redwall iz tae dae good an' 'elp ozerz.
This pretty much covers what Redwall stands for it was refereed to as the Abbey charter by brother Herbert and recited my Dandin and Saxtus. (Mariel of Redwall)
To be brothers and sisters of peace and good will, living together in harmony under the protection of Redwall Abbey, forsaking all unnecessary forms of violence, not only to Mossflower, its trees, grasses, flowers and insects, but to all living creatures. To help and comfort the dispossessed, harbor orphans and waifs, offer shelter to all creatures alike, give clothing, warmth and food to any beast or creature that is deemed in need of such. To educate and learn, particularly in the healing arts, comfort the sick, nurse the injured and help the wounded. To take our food form the earth and replenish the land by caring for it, husbanding crops and living in harmony with the seasons always. To honor and protect our friends and brethren, only raising paw to do battle when our life at Redwall is threatened by treachery and the shadow of war; at these times every Redwall creature should show courage, fortitude and obedience to Father Abbot. Albeit the taking of another life must always be justified and never carried out in a wanton manner.
Aye, an' zat juzt made me day. 'OORAY!
Ok....