Nature vs nurture?
Both?
What about that vermin that was raised in the Abbey?
What about Blaggut?
Oh yeah!
Maybe that was his conscience.
There are several discussions about this that have popped up in different topics, but it seems they are bad by nature in the book. Otherwise, they would be like people: a German growing up in Italy would probably learn Italian, and someone growing up in a place where everyone is virtuous will glean from that.
How about Deyna?
I would like to believe that not all vermin are inherently evil; take Gingivere for example. Even though he was raised in a manner in which cruelty is accepted, he himself showed no signs of it.
Of course, each creature is different, but just as there are bad woodlanders, there can be good vermin, or so I believe.
I think Gingivere is just polite.
But mostly vermin are just vermin, and woodlanders are just woodlanders.
Quote from: rrrrr on April 27, 2015, 04:18:50 AM
I think Gingivere is just polite.
If Gingivere was just polite, he wouldn't have taken care of Ferdy and Coggs and he wouldn't have joined the woodlanders, and would have joined his sister.
Quote from: rrrrr on April 27, 2015, 04:18:50 AM
But mostly vermin are just vermin, and woodlanders are just woodlanders.
What does this mean?
Quote from: Lord_Ashenwyte on May 12, 2015, 01:21:21 PM
Quote from: rrrrr on April 27, 2015, 04:18:50 AM
But mostly vermin are just vermin, and woodlanders are just woodlanders.
What does this mean?
It was essentially a general rule by used by Jacques where woodlanders species were almost (always) good and vermin species were (almost) always bad no matter what.
I thought that it was interesting that at the end of Mariel, the vermin that had been serving the Marlfoxes basically threw down their weapons and went off to become farmers. They were relieved to be free of all that crazy!
In the goodbeast's eyes, yes, because the vermin are predators to the prey and couldn't give less of a really bad stuff that they're enslaving/killing animals that would be their prey in the real world.
In our eyes, no, as to us ferrets, weasels, rats and such are just acting on their nature and what they were taught. That's why we see vermin acting kindly to each other but then being complete jerks to the goodbeasts.
No matter how anthropomorphized they may be, they are still different species and will respond differently.
Sure, if cows suddenly started walking on two legs, wearing clothes, and talking we may stop eating them for a while but soon we'd get used to it and beef would be on the menu again~
It's not a matter of nature or nurture; it's a matter of the allegory at play. The different species in Redwall represent different personality archetypes in people, and most of these species are characterized based on their reputation in popular culture rather than on how those species act in real life (hence why crows and ravens are all brutish and savage, whereas they'd be the smartest creatures we see in the whole series if it was being realistic). So, vermin are almost always bad because those species represent the kinds of people who are dishonest, cruel, cowardly, or weak-willed. There are also examples of vermin that were both simply born evil, and vermin that were raised/forced into it, because that's how it is for people too. Some people are born bad, some are made bad by their environment, and others only do bad things out of pure complacency rather than malice. Those few vermin that manage to buck the "vermin = evil" trend are usually the ones that were in the "forced into it/complacent" camp, or else part of a species that has both good and bad connotations in our culture (like cats).
Vermin aren't bad. They're self-serving. Anything good for them? They'll take it. It's just their selfish desire to be the best that makes them so. They don't have reservations- woodlanders do.
Blaggut? Well he was a simpleton, and liked building boats for the dibbuns. People forget that he strangled his captain before returning to the abbey. He was good, because his desires weren't mass wealth and cruelty. He wanted to stay at the abbey, and to achieve this desire he strangled his captain.
Veil? He died saving Byrony... He didn't want Byrony to get hurt and took the only option he had to achieve this desire.
Vermin want what they want and will do whatever it takes to get what they want, be it staying alive, conquering Redwall.etc They pull out all the stops.
It's always bothered me that vermin are bad no matter what - by all rights, Veil should have turned out right, unless Bryony spoiled him, which isn't a popular idea. Blaggut was always one of my favorites, as was the searat from Martin the Warrior that Brome grew close to. Perhaps becuse so few vermin are good, I've actually ended up making a troupe of fighters that travel together composed of two ferrets, an otter, and a mute fox. One of the ferrets was actually a leader of an invading horde before the other ferret came along....
When you do stuff like that, it makes them seem more realistic, like these are creatures behave similarly to people.....
I like the idea that it's because they represent a certain class of people rather than that its due to species-wide rotteness.
I can also see and agree with the fact that their evilness is contributed to our culture's opinion of them, but mice are pests as well as rats, and both ferrets and foxes are actually rather popular animals......
Indeed.
A fellow member and I are writing a fanfic that plays with this idea (well, more of grab it, choke it, and try to fix it by killing it and bringing it back to life). It's in the editing stage right now, so hopefully you'll be seeing it within the next month!
One spin on this topic, that I've never seen discussed before, is are the majority of vermin "born bad" or is it just a few vermin who end up being in positions of power in vermin hordes. An example of this is the grey rats in Marlfox- when the marlfoxes were killed along with a few of the commanding rats, the rest of them took up a life as farmers. By all accounts they were pretty content and didn't cause any further problems. While this case most clearly illustrates this point, another somewhat related example would be the Thousand Eyes horde following the destruction of Kotir. They were forced to leave Mossflower and while it isn't stated what became of them there isn't any reason to assume they went on to be murderers, thieves etc...
Quote from: The Skarzs on April 17, 2018, 04:29:27 AM
Indeed.
A fellow member and I are writing a fanfic that plays with this idea (well, more of grab it, choke it, and try to fix it by killing it and bringing it back to life). It's in the editing stage right now, so hopefully you'll be seeing it within the next month!
Glad to hear it, I have been waiting...
As for Grond's spin...
I think it comes back down to position. The way I see it vermin species have got a tendency towards being evil, like an instinct, but can choose to embrace it or ignore-though most aren't made aware that they have it. (Along with my earlier posts about not having moral boundaries). They just want to be happy.
To cite an example
The waterrats from Marlfox were content with being farmers because it was better to be a farmer than to suffer under the rule of Queen Silth and her brood. We never hear from them again though, so I think it's only a matter of time until some warlord shows up and makes another horde out of them. And then they'll get scared and obey to save themselves from getting killed in some cruel way. Then the ambitious ones rise up and become captains and gain power, and finally the warlord gets killed and the survivors scatter. Most don't think about the morality behind what they do and if it's kill that mouse or die (as it generally is) they'll be lining up to behead him! Or it'll be get that mouse and you can have a nice big cake- and not knowing or caring about anybeast but themselves- they'll still lign up to kill him. Naturally love complicates things and vermin are capable of love, so there are a lot of variables.
That is just a generic example of how they work. They're born with an inclination to be bad and then it's really just a coinflip of life as to how they actually end up.
On another note: Fanfics about this really interest me, anybeast know any good ones?
It's a self-perpetuating cycle, it seems, very much like the way you described, Grey.
As another member said a long while ago, much like real life cultures where crime is commonplace, the children are taught or shown a that life is a certain way, they haven't seen anything else, and so they continue that type of action, further continuing the cycle.
I think, if vermin were able to be left to live for a generation or three, that tendency towards evil may diminish.
Makes me wonder what would happen if Blaggut had had kids?
Also, what about the cat that Gingivere married? We're never told where she comes from.... And as we know from the original Redwall book, Skarzs' prediction about the evil tendencies diminishing has been proven correct - at least for cats, who were always kind of odd eggs anyway.
Quote from: Eila Wanderstream on April 19, 2018, 01:09:08 AM
Makes me wonder what would happen if Blaggut had had kids?
Also, what about the cat that Gingivere married? We're never told where she comes from.... And as we know from the original Redwall book, Skarzs' prediction about the evil tendencies diminishing has been proven correct - at least for cats, who were always kind of odd eggs anyway.
Well did Blaggut have kids with a mouse or with another rat? I can just imagine some rat corsair sneaking into Redwall and falling for the great big lovable Blaggut-even though she would act like your typical vermin and he... really doesn't. If it's with a mouse then... would they be able to breed?
Well evil tendencies diminishing... I guess I kind of agree with that. But like I said it's a coinflip, and even the goodbeasts have been shown going crazy from revenge and the like. So yeah... onions...layers...
To my knowledge, rats and mice can't breed. Or, if they can, the offspring will be unable to reproduce, like ligers or mules. That's the case with a lot of crossbreeds, even if they are similar.
They can't; though it's not to say in Redwall they can't, since other, weirder hybrids exist.
True. I mean, a Wearat? Though he didn't turn out very healthy, I noticed. Big and strong, but earless and mangy.... Ick. It would be like an otter-squirrel.
Rats and Mice look more breedable than squirrels and otters... an otter would probably find more luck in some of the vermin species, I mean they are all mustelids...technically.
Yeah. . . Gets into some weird territory, talking about their real-life counterparts.
As for the wearet. . . Not the most outlandish thing I've heard. Ferrets and weasels are similar in physique, but it would be the same as a rat-mouse.
No not the wearets. The wearat. Singular. Razzid wearat.
Oh. Yeah, that one wouldn't work.