I've always loved the Emire of Kotir. What's your ideas on it?
Was that in Mossflower?
and Brocktree
oh, it was cool I guess.
I did some research and Brian based them off the Empire from Star Wars.
Quote from: AbbotAlf0805 on July 19, 2012, 06:49:25 PM
I did some research and Brian based them off the Empire from Star Wars.
Where did you hear that?
Quote from: Lutra on July 19, 2012, 07:23:46 PM
Quote from: AbbotAlf0805 on July 19, 2012, 06:49:25 PM
I did some research and Brian based them off the Empire from Star Wars.
Where did you hear that?
I highly doubt that he based it off of Star Wars.
yes, i doubt that too, kotir was content to stay in one general area, the empire wasn't. Also, Kotir wasn't in Lord Brocktree.
Well i mean Mortspear and them.
kotir was a place, not an empire.
The group was called Kotir. They names their castle, Castle Kotir, if you look
I don't know about Kotir being an Empire, but they did want to rule all of mossflower.
I very highly doubt Mr. Jacques had even seen Star Wars. I don't really see Kotir being all that similar to the Empire in Star Wars either. It just reminds me of any old castle with a ruler and an army from the Medieval time. I'm not saying you can't imagine it as similar, but I'd double check whatever source said Mr. Jacques based any of his writing on Star Wars. Also, as Verdauga was a Lord, not an Emperor, there's no reason to call it an empire.
It refered to it as an empire in mossflower.
I couldn't find mention of it, but that's not my main point. My point is if you have researched anything, you have to provide people with a link to the information you found otherwise nobody can examine it for themselves. You can't get mad about people being skeptical if you don't provide sources for your information.
Ok i meant i finished the book yesterday but ill look for a link
Given the fact Redwall is based heavily on medieval times, your standard form of rule of the time, is an individual manor, ruled by a lord. The subjects underneath are required to work and provide food and goods for the Lord in return for protection from invaders. This is exactly what Kotir and Lord Verdauga fall under. ;) An empire is one where the ones in power want to control more than just what they see. You never gather that Verdauga or even Tsarmina for that matter, want any more control beyond the land they own...and that is the immediate land around Kotir. They didn't want to lose control (a Lord wouldn't want to lose control) but weren't interested in anything beyond the woods. Tsarmina would've gone after her brother if you were to compare these people to empire builders.
Yes I think what Lutra said is right but it was still a cool thought....Do you think there are any other Empires in the Redwall book?
Quote from: Leatho Shellhound on July 20, 2012, 03:35:50 AM
Yes I think what Lutra said is right but it was still a cool thought....Do you think there are any other Empires in the Redwall book?
Nope....I didn't gather that any individual wanted an empire in the series. Conquering or ruling over one place is not the same as building up a necessary army with the sole purpose of invading and conquering others. ;) No group ever seemed to have enough individuals to protect their home AND try and conquer someone else. There was always a shortage somewhere, whether it was individuals or resources. ;)
Ublaz did go by the title of Emperor, though.
Quote from: Flandor on July 20, 2012, 03:54:07 AM
Ublaz did go by the title of Emperor, though.
While that may be true, he didn't act like one....sitting on his island, keeping control of his timber stock. Ublaz seemed pretty content to just stay where he was and have others do his bidding/plundering.
Oh I do agree with you there, Lutra, I was just pointing out that he was (I think) the only baddie to call himself an emperor.
also, not to be rude, but the reason I don't think it's based off of Star Wars is because the Redwall books aren't sci fi. If they were, I could see it as a possibility.
N'kay just wanted yall's thoughts on this. :)
Quote from: Lutra on July 20, 2012, 03:30:18 AM
. ;) An empire is one where the ones in power want to control more than just what they see. You never gather that Verdauga or even Tsarmina for that matter, want any more control beyond the land they own...and that is the immediate land around Kotir.
Well not exactly....If an empire was simply a power that wanted more land then an empire couldn't really exsist, because there is always more to control, right?
An Empire is deffined as a Power the controls several other former powers. For example The british empire was ruled by the british, but consisted of more then just England. It was made of India, America, and many other island states and and even hong kong at one point. But Kotir still isn't an empire. They may rule mosslower, but thats it. They wouldn't Become an Empire intill consuming yet another kingdom.
Ublaz did go by the title of Emperor, it is sorta true, he rulled all the other pirates. And maybe some other islands.
Was'nt Ungatt Trunn an emperor? I mean, he tried to conquer Salamandastron, and that was more then he had.
Quote from: AbbotAlf0805 on July 19, 2012, 06:49:25 PM
I did some research and Brian based them off the Empire from Star Wars.
copy cat
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSs7kIQq0l_et0EDgLppkcSMW8m_CrInBHgYWPJ9exShHWojw54bw)
I don't see the connection between Star Wars and Kotir... and I think it was more of a kingdom, not an empire.
This is so interesting! But let's all get this straight first: Verdauga was not evil. Verdauga was AWESOME. 8) Tsarmina was the one who was evil. Careful what you say about Verdauga, HE'S MY FAVORITE WILDCAT OF ALL TIME, IN THE REDWALL SERIES.
Ungatt Trunn (spelling?) and his family were like Empire builders.
Quote from: AbbotAlf0805 on July 19, 2012, 06:49:25 PM
I did some research and Brian based them off the Empire from Star Wars.
Thought this was pretty neat! What're some similarities (its been a very long time since I've read Mossflower)?
Quote from: Captain Tammo on January 25, 2013, 08:08:35 PM
Quote from: AbbotAlf0805 on July 19, 2012, 06:49:25 PM
I did some research and Brian based them off the Empire from Star Wars.
Thought this was pretty neat! What're some similarities (its been a very long time since I've read Mossflower)?
Please read all the replies to this topic first. ;) Mossflower is hardly based on Star Wars.
Quote from: Romsca on January 24, 2013, 02:44:59 PM
This is so interesting! But let's all get this straight first: Verdauga was not evil. Verdauga was AWESOME. 8) Tsarmina was the one who was evil. Careful what you say about Verdauga, HE'S MY FAVORITE WILDCAT OF ALL TIME, IN THE REDWALL SERIES.
Verdauga Greeneyes was the one that imprisoned the Woodlanders.
Quote from: Lutra on January 26, 2013, 04:36:17 PM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on January 25, 2013, 08:08:35 PM
Quote from: AbbotAlf0805 on July 19, 2012, 06:49:25 PM
I did some research and Brian based them off the Empire from Star Wars.
Thought this was pretty neat! What're some similarities (its been a very long time since I've read Mossflower)?
Please read all the replies to this topic first. ;) Mossflower is hardly based on Star Wars.
Whoa how did I miss that many posts!? :o hahaha my bad!
He probably "imprisoned the woodlanders" as you say because here's an example of what could have happened:
Stoat 1 and Weasel 3, random soldiers of Verdauga, are bothering a certain ottermaid. The father gets mad and start a fight with Stoat 1 and Weasel 3. Stoat 1 and Weasel 3 on the other hand, are extremely mean, so they burn their farm because of it. The otter family blames it on Verdauga because they were Verdauga's soldiers, even though Verdauga really had nothing to do with it. Verdauga tried to convince them that it wasn't his fault that the farm was burned. They don't believe him, so this starts a small revolution, and what would anyone else do if crazy people (even with good intentions) were trying to assassinate you?
Yes, but what I mean is that he came to Mossflower, built a Stronghold, and used the Woodlanders as slaves.
Where did it say that he used them as slaves? They could have just been paid servants or something anyway
Quote from: Romsca on February 07, 2013, 01:05:36 PM
Where did it say that he used them as slaves? They could have just been paid servants or something anyway
That's an interesting theory, however redwall doesn't have very many gray characters. Good animals are good, bad animals are bad. I believe Verdauga was bad, like Ungatt was
I think that Ungatt was way more evil than Verdauga, but that's just my opinion. It seems that in most wildcat families in Redwall that are mentioned, there's two kids; one's nicer and one's evil.
Lol, hense the profile pic. ;D
Well Ungatt's brother was also bad, right? I am with you though that Verdauga was one of the better wildcats in the Redwall series. ;)
I'm sorta with that because he still had a horde of vermin and he stole from woodlanders. (3 MORE POSTS)
Maybe he got softer when he got older.
maybe (I'M A HERO MEMBER SAY HURRAH TO YOUR NEWEST MEMBER HEROS)
congratulations!!!!!!!!!!
THANKS BACK ON TOPIC
Ok... I wonder how Verdauga conquered it all originally? Maybe there was a big kingdom and when Verdauga and Ungatt's father died, they each got half.
Quote from: Mattio on February 16, 2013, 02:49:39 AM
I'm sorta with that because he still had a horde of vermin and he stole from woodlanders. (3 MORE POSTS)
TSARMINA ordered THE SOLDIERS to steal from the woodlanders. Verdauga probably wasn't involved in it at all
True. Original question of mine:
Quote from: PluggFiretail on February 18, 2013, 03:18:40 AM
Ok... I wonder how Verdauga conquered it all originally? Maybe there was a big kingdom and when Verdauga and Ungatt's father died, they each got half.
Verdauga walked in, saw Kotir, decided he wanted it and seeing as no one else lived IN KOTIR ITSELF he decided to live there. Then the people of Mossflower decided "No wildcats thank you very much" and tried to drive him out and that's when he enslaved them
It is hard to say if he was good or bad since he was only in a few chapters.
Quote from: Jetthebinturong on April 14, 2013, 05:52:00 PM
Verdauga walked in, saw Kotir, decided he wanted it and seeing as no one else lived IN KOTIR ITSELF he decided to live there. Then the people of Mossflower decided "No wildcats thank you very much" and tried to drive him out and that's when he enslaved them
At least I'm not the only one who doesn't think he was evil!
Err... I don't think we know enough about him to say whether he is good or evil, but I am guessing the latter because of a few things:
1) He may not have enslaved the woodlanders in the same manner that the Marlfoxes did, but he certainly didn't pay them. If he really wanted to pay them, he would have let them keep everything they grew. Then, he wouldn't owe them anything, and they wouldn't owe him anything. There's not really a currency in redwall anyway.
2) He seemed to have a lot of land, and expanding it to Mossflower seems like the move of a conqueror. Most conquerors were viewed as evil in redwall, I cannot think of one who was treated as good.
3) Gingivere, his son, the good one in the family, walked away, implying that those who he was leaving were evil. Of course, this could just refer to Ungatt and Tsarmina, but still.
Ungatt wasn't there and Verdauga was dead by the time Gingivere left.
Quote from: Ajc3000fox on August 14, 2012, 09:32:43 PM
Quote from: Lutra on July 20, 2012, 03:30:18 AM
. ;) An empire is one where the ones in power want to control more than just what they see. You never gather that Verdauga or even Tsarmina for that matter, want any more control beyond the land they own...and that is the immediate land around Kotir.
Well not exactly....If an empire was simply a power that wanted more land then an empire couldn't really exsist, because there is always more to control, right?
That's why empires
do exist, it's called greed. Sin is a bottomless pit, you can't content yourself with sin, you always want more.
Not all emperors/ empresses were bad. Queen Victoria of the British Empire was actually really good!
Tell that to the people she conquered
Quote from: Norham Waterpaw on April 15, 2013, 03:12:20 AM
Quote from: Ajc3000fox on August 14, 2012, 09:32:43 PM
Quote from: Lutra on July 20, 2012, 03:30:18 AM
. ;) An empire is one where the ones in power want to control more than just what they see. You never gather that Verdauga or even Tsarmina for that matter, want any more control beyond the land they own...and that is the immediate land around Kotir.
Well not exactly....If an empire was simply a power that wanted more land then an empire couldn't really exsist, because there is always more to control, right?
That's why empires do exist, it's called greed. Sin is a bottomless pit, you can't content yourself with sin, you always want more.
True
So you're saying Verdauga was greedy?
Verdauga wasn't an emperor
Well if anything it was kingdom, and it would be technically called the kingdom of mossflower. The beasts who lived there before Kotir, were mostly communal mice that farmed and what not. He simply moved in and a feudal relationship evolved. Mice farm, make crops, feed them selves, give it to kotir, kotir protects them. They honestly didn't much care although the badgers of brockhall remained independent. They only started fighting back when Tar came to power because she was a jerk.
Verdauga wasn't bad, And he wasn't an emperor. If anything he was a king, and one who was fair enough to keep peace.
Zaran's sword is double bladed like Darth Maul's lightsaber.
And that relates to this how?
Quote from: Ajc3000fox on May 07, 2013, 12:53:32 AMVerdauga wasn't bad, And he wasn't an emperor. If anything he was a king, and one who was fair enough to keep peace.
YES!!! *high fives Ajc3000fox*
Quote from: AbbotAlf0805 on July 19, 2012, 06:49:25 PM
I did some research and Brian based them off the Empire from Star Wars.
I doubt Brian had even seen Star Wars, that must have been some crazy myth.