Redwall Abbey

Who would win in a fair fight?

Well, I would dispute the idea that the fight we see in the book was unfair. Using the environment to your advantage is a fundamental part of any conflict. Sure, Cluny wasn't expecting it, but that was the whole point. Somebody who never does the unexpected is somebody who is going to lose any fight where they don't start out with an overwhelming advantage.

That aside, though, for this scenario to work we need to assume that Friar Hugo didn't sneeze. As long as Cluny knows he's there, he'll use the friar as a hostage, and there won't be much of a fight to write about.

In that circumstance, I would say that it's Cluny's to lose. While the two combatants were a pretty even match out in the open, his greater size and strength would give him the advantage in close quarters. Both Cluny and Matthias saw this:

Quote from: RedwallIf only he could get the mouse at close quarters and stop him from using the sword, Cluny thought, then he could win with his superior strength.

They locked in combat again. Cluny barred the railing across the sword blade. Pushing with both claws he drove Matthias backwards. Now he could see victory in sight. If only he could pin the warrior mouse against the wall, he would be able to throttle him with the edge of the railing.
...
Remorselessly he used his greater strength to drive the young mouse backwards. They were only inches from the wall now. Matthias realized what Cluny was doing. He would be finished once he was pinned against the wall.

Whenever they were pressed up against each other, Matthias only gave ground. To win, he needed open space where he would have room for finesse and could get the most out of his superior weapon. For that reason, climbing the stairs was probably a mistake, if he planned on doing anything other than cutting the Bell down.

Unless there's something really special up in the belfry that I don't know about, Cluny should have been able to win after he climbed the stairs and got Matthias pressed up into a space where the mouse couldn't move around.

I think it's worth noting, though that the outcome of the duel was probably irrelevant at that point. Matthias' conversation with Constance shortly after indicates that the woodlander alliance had already routed the horde before Cluny's death. If he killed Matthias, he would have come down to an Abbey ground filled with his enemies. As great a fighter as Cluny was, I don't think he could have survived or escaped all of the remaining Abbeydwellers, the shrews, the sparrows, and the cat and owl right outside the gate.

For the Horde to even have a chance of defending their prize, they needed Cluny's undivided attention. For them to have that, he would have had to kill Matthias almost immediately after they started fighting. By the point in time we're talking about, it was already over for the bad guys.

Cluny would be on top in my book. Of all the malicious horde leaders in the Redwall series Cluny has the greatest reputation of any, and he legitimately backed it up. Honestly there were many times when he completely deserved to win Redwall, being foiled entirely by incredibly bad luck.

I also always found the final duel somewhat disappointing, as it featured a hero who lies to the villain to win. This is so contrary to what values the woodlanders normally seem to hold, and it's not exactly honorable. I know he supposedly comes down after chopping the bell, making his promise fulfilled, but it's hard to deny that his promise was clearly to fight, not to drop a bell on his opponent. So yes, my vote it 100% for Cluny  ;)

I think Cluny would.

Cluny would definitely win having the experience of fighting. Mathias only won because of a bell.  :P

Quote from: James Gryphon on August 30, 2014, 02:54:59 PM
Well, I would dispute the idea that the fight we see in the book was unfair. Using the environment to your advantage is a fundamental part of any conflict. Sure, Cluny wasn't expecting it, but that was the whole point. Somebody who never does the unexpected is somebody who is going to lose any fight where they don't start out with an overwhelming advantage.

That aside, though, for this scenario to work we need to assume that Friar Hugo didn't sneeze. As long as Cluny knows he's there, he'll use the friar as a hostage, and there won't be much of a fight to write about.

In that circumstance, I would say that it's Cluny's to lose. While the two combatants were a pretty even match out in the open, his greater size and strength would give him the advantage in close quarters. Both Cluny and Matthias saw this:

Quote from: RedwallIf only he could get the mouse at close quarters and stop him from using the sword, Cluny thought, then he could win with his superior strength.

They locked in combat again. Cluny barred the railing across the sword blade. Pushing with both claws he drove Matthias backwards. Now he could see victory in sight. If only he could pin the warrior mouse against the wall, he would be able to throttle him with the edge of the railing.
...
Remorselessly he used his greater strength to drive the young mouse backwards. They were only inches from the wall now. Matthias realized what Cluny was doing. He would be finished once he was pinned against the wall.

Whenever they were pressed up against each other, Matthias only gave ground. To win, he needed open space where he would have room for finesse and could get the most out of his superior weapon. For that reason, climbing the stairs was probably a mistake, if he planned on doing anything other than cutting the Bell down.

Unless there's something really special up in the belfry that I don't know about, Cluny should have been able to win after he climbed the stairs and got Matthias pressed up into a space where the mouse couldn't move around.

I think it's worth noting, though that the outcome of the duel was probably irrelevant at that point. Matthias' conversation with Constance shortly after indicates that the woodlander alliance had already routed the horde before Cluny's death. If he killed Matthias, he would have come down to an Abbey ground filled with his enemies. As great a fighter as Cluny was, I don't think he could have survived or escaped all of the remaining Abbeydwellers, the shrews, the sparrows, and the cat and owl right outside the gate.

For the Horde to even have a chance of defending their prize, they needed Cluny's undivided attention. For them to have that, he would have had to kill Matthias almost immediately after they started fighting. By the point in time we're talking about, it was already over for the bad guys.

I agree with you.

Lol I would WANT Matthias to win, but Cluny has the poison barb, etc. So... yea. :P :P Also Matthias won because of the bell... but I like him more. TEAM Matthias

Quote from: SilentSam on November 02, 2014, 04:16:07 PM
Lol I would WANT Matthias to win, but Cluny has the poison barb, etc. So... yea. :P :P Also Matthias won because of the bell... but I like him more. TEAM Matthias

That's cool but could you change your signature please? It stretches the screen

Welcome to the forums, Sam! If you post in the Introduction Topic in the Front Lawns, you can be greeted more properly by the other members. ;)

But yes, Cluny would come on top eventually because of his endurance, size and strength, and not to mention skill.

       I'm actually going to have to go against the flow with this one and say Matthias. Sure, Cluny had the experience, size, etc... But he didn't have Martin's spirit. A spirit who's sole purpose is to protect the abbey, he's been known to intervene in situations like this before (like when Matthias slew Asmodeus), and I'm sure he'd do it again. Also, Cluny's size could be counted as a disadvantage because Matthias would be able to move and react quicker, as well as having less to endure through which would give him the long-term advantage in the weariness area. Cluny also lacked any REAL weapon, excepting his poison barb, which makes him vulnerable in armaments. It would certainly be very close, but all things considered, I highly doubt Martin would let his Abbey be taken by a now-crazed rat.

This is disregarding the abbey just "If Matthias and Cluny had a fair fight, who would win?", no spirit of Martin, no poison barb, just two beasts battling it out

Quote from: danflorreguba on November 03, 2014, 07:45:10 PM
       I'm actually going to have to go against the flow with this one and say Matthias. Sure, Cluny had the experience, size, etc... But he didn't have Martin's spirit. A spirit who's sole purpose is to protect the abbey, he's been known to intervene in situations like this before (like when Matthias slew Asmodeus), and I'm sure he'd do it again. Also, Cluny's size could be counted as a disadvantage because Matthias would be able to move and react quicker, as well as having less to endure through which would give him the long-term advantage in the weariness area. Cluny also lacked any REAL weapon, excepting his poison barb, which makes him vulnerable in armaments. It would certainly be very close, but all things considered, I highly doubt Martin would let his Abbey be taken by a now-crazed rat.

Very fair points to consider.

       Well if you're cutting it that far down than you'd have to strip them of everything they have, including size and strength. Making it strictly a battle of the wits which Matthias would almost un-doubt ably win given that Cluny was on the edge of being raving mad! I thought we were pitting the characters as their book presence was in an environment that gave no advantage (IE, a flat, grassland or some such).

       Tim, would you mind defining what your take on "fair" is so that we can bypass this issue? That way we can actually analyze something in a static state rather than in a relative state.

Martin didn't always save protagonists. There's quite a few good creatures who got killed, whether at the Abbey or outside of it, and I don't think we can use the fact that he's helped the heroes or hurt the villains sometimes (usually in visions and dreams) to mean that any fight must be a guaranteed win due to his influence. He counsels the protagonists, and sometimes interferes with the enemy, but it is very unusual for him to do so in the middle of a fight: except for the incident mentioned with Asmodeus, and the ending of Mariel of Redwall, I can't think offhand of any other times when Martin does this. Anyway, this is supposed to be Cluny versus Matthias, not Cluny versus Matthias and also Martin's Spirit. Whatever else a fair fight may or may not be, it doesn't normally allow two against one.

While their actual fight does seem to suggest that Matthias might be a little quicker than Cluny, it isn't by a lot -- whereas Cluny is far stronger. As for endurance, I'd guess that they're pretty close to even, considering that they tired out at about the same time (counting injuries).

As far as their armament goes (which, by the way, the poison barb is a part of -- it doesn't make sense to deprive Cluny of what he apparently considered to be his main weapon), the railing could obviously sustain the blows from Martin's sword without significant damage, and he came close to throttling Matthias with it. It worked well enough for him that I can't say he's at a severe disadvantage there. His main mistake was at the beginning of their fight, when he tried to go for an easy kill with the poison barb. If he had battered down Matthias' defenses with the railing first, then after the shield was gone he could have overwhelmed the mouse by attacking with both the railing and the barb.

Finally, I've said this long before, and will hit on it again -- being crazy doesn't mean that you're stupid. Cluny was vastly more experienced in every degree of warfare than Matthias, and there's no evidence that Cluny's mental condition affected his fighting or strategic ability. (For example, he conquered the Abbey after coming down with kampanaphobia (http://phobia.wikia.com/wiki/Kampanaphobia).)

Quote from: Tam and Martin on September 18, 2014, 04:09:48 PM
Cluny would definitely win having the experience of fighting. Mathias only won because of a bell.  :P

saved by the bell  ;D

Although I hate to say it, Cluny would definitely win. He's stronger, bigger, and way more experienced. The only real obstacle Matthias had beforehand was Asmodeus. That said, Matthias was totally in the right by crushing Cluny to death with the Joseph bell.
My, that sounds rather brutal.

Good Points :)
I think Matthias would win. He had the Spirit of Martin the Warrior to help him. As BJ says, good always wins.

Welcome to the forums Rivertheotter :)

As Wot said, welcome to the forum, River! :) If ye want, you can introduce yourself here: http://redwallabbey.com/forum/index.php?topic=177.2745 (http://redwallabbey.com/forum/index.php?topic=177.2745)

Speaking rationally, I would honestly say Cluny. Not that Matthias isn't brilliant himself, but he didn't have the experience that Cluny had as a legendary warlord. The thing Wot said about the spirit of Martin is an interesting point, though.

If Matthias and Cluny had fought at the time of Mattimeio, when Matthias's skill had improved and he had a much more even head on his shoulders, I think he might win against Cluny.

Quote from: Wot, wot! on February 22, 2015, 08:32:45 PM
Good Points :)
I think Matthias would win. He had the Spirit of Martin the Warrior to help him. As BJ says, good always wins.

Welcome to the forums Rivertheotter :)

why thank you sir wot, wot! :D

I suppose Cluny would win just because he only had to wound Matthias once to finish the fight. Unfortunately for him he was standing in the perfect spot for a bell to fall on him ending the fight rather suddenly.

Welcome to the forums Otter!  :)

I would think that the battle in the Belltower was a fair fight where both Matthias and Cluny could both use their advantages easily and use the enemy's disadvantages against them.

Quote from: Rivertheotter on February 27, 2015, 11:11:06 PM

Quote from: Wot, wot! on February 22, 2015, 08:32:45 PM
Good Points :)
I think Matthias would win. He had the Spirit of Martin the Warrior to help him. As BJ says, good always wins.

Welcome to the forums Rivertheotter :)

why thank you sir wot, wot! :D

Wot's a female, just so you know. :P

Quote from: The Skarzs on February 28, 2015, 02:57:56 AM

Quote from: Rivertheotter on February 27, 2015, 11:11:06 PM

Quote from: Wot, wot! on February 22, 2015, 08:32:45 PM
Good Points :)
I think Matthias would win. He had the Spirit of Martin the Warrior to help him. As BJ says, good always wins.

Welcome to the forums Rivertheotter :)

why thank you sir wot, wot! :D

Wot's a female, just so you know. :P

Heh heh heh heh heh....

I personally would say that Cluny would win.

Sad Face. World Depressed. Redwall Crumbles.

I know, but it was just too hard for Matthias, as Cluny was too experienced for him.
Just a quick word, but I cannot believe that my thread is on the front page after 4 or 5 months of no me. I'm happy over the moon.

Not necessarily. If Matthias had not beaten Cluny, either the otters with their slings would have taken him down, or Constance would have had some time to vent her anger on him.

Quote from: Ballaw De Quincewold on February 28, 2015, 03:22:14 AM

Quote from: The Skarzs on February 28, 2015, 02:57:56 AM
Wot's a female, just so you know. :P

Heh heh heh heh heh....

Don't feel bad, I didn't know she was female for a long time. :P

well, it is hard to tell on the internet.

I do think Cluny would win, like others said. He has the poison tail, which he could use to poison Matthias, and he is far stronger. Matthias didn't have much experience then as well.

It seems that everyone is talking about how Matthias used the environment to his advantage, and so did basically every hero. Tam sharpened his shield, Martin tricked Tsarmina into the river, etc.etc. That's how all the heroes won; using their wits.

In a FAIR fight, I guess that Matthias would have a little advantage, because Cluny always seems to rely on dirty tricks and the use of multiple weapons at the same time, but I honestly don't know how to answer that. The rat is an skilled fighter regardless of said tricks (please note that I'm mostly concluding things based on what I saw on the TV series).

It would be an even match.

Thing with dirty tricks is they often work. Had whatshisname been fighting anyone but Constance when he threw dirt in their eyes, he would most likely have won. While there is honor and glory in fair fighting, if one really wants to not die then they will use things like their environment or special tricks to overcome their opponent.

Quote from: The Skarzs on March 10, 2015, 02:07:32 AM
Thing with dirty tricks is they often work.

Not only that, but they can be decisive... which brings an interesting point to the table: would that thing that Cluny wields latched on his tail be considered a dirty trick? It is certainly a secondary weapon, and thus, it would give Cluny two weapons total to face Matthias' only sword, but I don't think that he ever used it against him.

Having and using more than one weapon effectively is a mark of skill, not dirtiness. There's a reason why the sword and shield combination was so ubiquitous -- the shield simply provides too much protection to readily forgo. Besides, the shield can be used as a weapon too, by bashing your opponent. Taking on an opponent who had a shield without one of your own is pretty risky, and if you could get away with it then you deserve respect.
Anyway, 'unfair', in my mind, doesn't mean that the two opponents have to be exactly equal in every way; it just means that the environment isn't biased towards one or the other.

@Sierra: This is a case, unfortunately, where the show gave you less than your money's worth. There's a need to condense material, of course, but the show (and also the comic book, which I recently read) do it to the point of making Cluny appear a weaker villain than he was meant to be.

To answer your question about the poison barb, Cluny does attempt to get him with it close to the beginning of the fight, but Matthias blocked it with the shield, and then cut off the tip of Cluny's tail.

Thanks a lot for your detailed explanation, James. But to be fair -or not, since I haven't read any of the books yet- Redwall seemed like a pretty consistent series to me, nothing seemed to pop out of nowhere (except for Season 2, I'm still trying to figure out what was going on there) and I would dare to say that some of the episodes felt like filler.

Now about Cluny... you know what? My only complaint towards him is that the series portrayed him as to being frankly incompetent (and his obsession with the Abbey was way beyond the point in which it would be acceptable... like a little child obsessed with getting something he can't have). He really lost his tactical advantage very soon by camping near the abbey and at the sight of its watch towers -but it is only fair to remark that he did pull off some nice tricks of his own as well-.

Now back on topic: I agree with what you said about the use of multiple weapons being a matter of skill rather than dirtiness and I honestly forgot about Matthias' shield (I don't know how it happened, but it happened) that makes the battle even again. And I also forgot about Cluny's failed attempt at use his barb.

Once again, I thank you for your detailed explanation, and I will check out the comic :)

Also, please define Fair.

Fair: |fay'r|
adj.
1. in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate
- just or appropriate in the circumstances
adv.
1. without cheating or trying to achieve and unjust advantage

Quote from: The Skarzs on March 10, 2015, 01:57:03 PM
Fair: |fay'r|
adj.
1. in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate
- just or appropriate in the circumstances
adv.
1. without cheating or trying to achieve and unjust advantage

Jajaj, awesome :P

Quote from: Lord_Ashenwyte on March 10, 2015, 09:44:20 AM
Also, please define Fair.

Probably a one vs one battle would be considered "fair" for these two. After all, they do have lots allies to help them out. As we said, they do like to pull off some dirty tricks, so a single one vs one battle with no one else interceding would get close enough to fairness here.

Quote from: The Skarzs on March 10, 2015, 01:57:03 PM
Fair: |fay'r|
adj.
1. in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate
- just or appropriate in the circumstances
adv.
1. without cheating or trying to achieve and unjust advantage

Mhmm.

Quote from: TheTaleOfSierra on March 10, 2015, 01:58:24 PM

Quote from: Lord_Ashenwyte on March 10, 2015, 09:44:20 AM
Also, please define Fair.

Probably a one vs one battle would be considered "fair" for these two. After all, they do have lots allies to help them out. As we said, they do like to pull off some dirty tricks, so a single one vs one battle with no one else interceding would get close enough to fairness here.

They did have a one on one battle in the Belltower though.

Wasn't Cluny terrified of Matthias when he first showed up hiding and whatnot. He lost a lot of his advantage from just raw (My nightmare is alivel) After finally getting into the Abbey and killing the Abbot at the peak of his victory he tried to run from Matthias not fight, he didn't start fighting for real until he was forced to fight or die. By that time the shrews and sparrows had basically ended the fight with the rats Cluny didn't have a chance in that one.

I think that's basically what happened in the show, but in the book, Cluny doesn't take much time to get down to business:

Quote from: RedwallCluny plucked the blazing torch from Killconey's grasp. He flung it at the face of the oncoming warrior. Matthias deflected it with his shield in a cascade of sparks and went after the horde leader. To gain a brief respite, Cluny pushed Killconey into Matthias. The ferret grappled vainly but was cloven in two with one swift stroke. Matthias stepped over the slain ferret, whirling his sword expertly as he pursued Cluny.
...
The thick tail of the Warlord flicked out venomously at Matthias's face. He covered swiftly with his shield as the poisoned metal barb clanged harmlessly off it. Cluny tried again, this time whipping the tail speedily at the young mouse's unprotected legs. Matthias leaped nimbly to one side and swung the sword in a flashing arc. Cluny roared with pain as it severed the tip of his tail. The bloodied stub lay on the grass with the barb still attached. Hurling the Abbot's chair at his adversary, the rat seized an iron spike. Metal clashed on metal as the Warrior Mouse parried Cluny's thrusts.

They battled across the green Abbey lawns, right through the center of the maelstrom of warring creatures. Oblivious to the fighting around them they sought to destroy each other, hacking, stabbing, lunging and swinging in mortal combat.

Cluny only retreats until he has something, besides his tail, approximating a weapon. After he's armed, he fights viciously, and there isn't any indication that he's afraid of his opponent from that point on.

Quote from: Lord_Ashenwyte on March 10, 2015, 02:26:16 PM

Quote from: The Skarzs on March 10, 2015, 01:57:03 PM
Fair: |fay'r|
adj.
1. in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate
- just or appropriate in the circumstances
adv.
1. without cheating or trying to achieve and unjust advantage

Mhmm.

Quote from: TheTaleOfSierra on March 10, 2015, 01:58:24 PM

Quote from: Lord_Ashenwyte on March 10, 2015, 09:44:20 AM
Also, please define Fair.

Probably a one vs one battle would be considered "fair" for these two. After all, they do have lots allies to help them out. As we said, they do like to pull off some dirty tricks, so a single one vs one battle with no one else interceding would get close enough to fairness here.

They did have a one on one battle in the Belltower though.

Yeah, most certainly, but that was hardly fair. One of them had a hostage and the other one... yeah.

Technically it was fair until Cluny took Cornflower hostage. Then only foolishness caused him to let her go and leave himself wide open to any attack.

That was only in the animated series; he had Hugo in the book.

I never read that as thoroughly as I should have...anyway, just substitute Hugo for where I put Cornflower.

Quote from: Delthion on March 17, 2015, 02:13:33 AM
Technically it was fair until Cluny took Cornflower hostage. Then only foolishness caused him to let her go and leave himself wide open to any attack.

Yeah, but said attack was also really unfair (I mean, come on xD).

Each of them used their wit to the fullest extent. Matthias' just won out!

Quote from: Delthion on March 19, 2015, 03:39:40 AM
Each of them used their wit to the fullest extent. Matthias' just won out!

Since I haven't read any of the books, I can't continue to argue (plus what you say seems correct),

I guess that you are right about it and it was a fair battle after all :)

What the. . . You haven't read any of the books and you're on the forum?! Unspeakable horror!

(But dude, you should probably read the books. :P)

QuoteWhat the. . . You haven't read any of the books and you're on the forum?! Unspeakable horror!

I like you too :P

Quote(But dude, you should probably read the books. :P)

I know, I have been putting it off (well, truth to be told, I can't really afford that many books either).

Do you not have a library that carries it? (I don't know how Argentina is librarywise. . .)

Quote from: TheTaleOfSierra on March 19, 2015, 04:47:02 PM

QuoteWhat the. . . You haven't read any of the books and you're on the forum?! Unspeakable horror!

I like you too :P

>_>

Quote from: The Skarzs on March 19, 2015, 04:55:35 PM
Do you not have a library that carries it? (I don't know how Argentina is librarywise. . .)

Well, someone has to have them, but I guess that my best bet would be to buy them digitally (I think that they charge you one dollar for each one).

Quote>_>

Jajajaj ;D

So let me get this straight...you're on a site about a book, and you've never read the said books? Wow, that's strange and hilarious. ;D ;D

Quoteyou're on a site about a book

Well, that isn't quite accurate. This is the forum that goes along with the main Redwall site, which just happens to primarily cover the Redwall book series. However, we're certainly open for discussion of other works by Mr. Jacques, or, as it happens, works deriving from his creations. If a Redwall film was to be made, I would expect a large influx of members who saw the film, and didn't know there even was a book until they saw the site.

While I heartily encourage anyone who's only watched the show to read the book (as it's better, and I think they'll enjoy it), it certainly isn't a prerequisite to being here.

---

As far as the thought that Matthias lied in killing Cluny, I have an old post that responds to that around here somewhere... going to dig it up, stay tuned for an Edit here.

Edit: Here we go.

Quote from: James Gryphon on August 21, 2011, 11:22:28 AM
I think the problem here is that you're assuming Matthias and Cluny had the same bargain. Cluny demanded that Matthias "throw the sword down or I'll spike [Hugo] like a lollipop".

This, Matthias clearly did not do. If he was a skilled swordthrower,  then he could have done so to the Bell, thus exactly honoring the bargain Cluny intended to make. Instead of doing that, Matthias promised to something other than what Cluny proposed:

Quote from: Redwall"First let the friar go, then I promise on my honor as a warrior that I'll come down."

He does not say that the sword coming down first is a part of this, and Cluny should have seen as much. While I don't think it's a lie, because all the information was "out on the table", so to speak, it does come off as a bit deceitful... however, if Cluny's trying to negotiate Matthias' death, he should carefully examine the clauses and terms in their contract. It's just that simple. ;) If you're going to use someone's honorable nature against them, you should make sure that the promise they're making for you is the promise you wanted them to make.

So Matthias did in fact honor his promise, though it wasn't the one Cluny had in mind. Cluny agreed to Matthias' terms in the revised contract by releasing Friar Hugo. Thus, Matthias fulfilled it by coming down after Cluny had been crushed by the bell.

Quote from: Delthion on March 19, 2015, 05:48:58 PM
So let me get this straight...you're on a site about a book, and you've never read the said books? Wow, that's strange and hilarious. ;D ;D

I have watched the series, but if any of you think that I shouldn't be here just because of that, that's fine.

I don't believe any of us think that; you're fine here as James explained. It's just a very unusual occurrence to have someone on the forums who's never read the books and that's why everyone is surprised. Nothing wrong with it, though. :)

Matthias fights fair and does not use trickery to win his battles. Cluny cheats and treats his followers like garbage that is no way for a leader to act.

       One could argue that Matthias was deceitful with the whole bell thing, and honestly, I'd have to give them that argument ... It's true, it was just as dirty as anything else in the entire series.... Then again, the counter-argument here would be the leveling of the playing field, which has some merit, but still doesn't wash the stain of what some would consider a cowardly move... I myself do not view his action this way, as I'd just say he got his just deserts in a most ironic way.

       Even so, we're talking about a situation in which Matthias and Cluny are in a static setting, matching whatever every individual here is matching, it's kinda hard to tell sometimes. I personally lessen the importance of size, because I find this difference semi-irrelevant, but that's personal, and not a point I'm going to force or argue.

I made htat way more confusing than need be.  :P

They probably would have both died because Matthias is valiant and if he is losing he will bring Cluny with him  :P

But he survived  :) :) :)

Matti would've been butchered. Why else do you think he cheated and used the Bell to his advantage?
He knew full well he had little chance against Cluny in true combat.

CLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNY!