I jut started Rakkety Tam today and I'm on chapter four, so no spoilers please!
Anyway.
When Jem was talking about Gulo's brother, Askor, he said that he mentioned his dad wanting Gulo and him to rule together after he died and that he (the brother) stole that stone thing because Gulo would be a bad ruler.
...Right?
So are Wolverines naturally like birds or something where they can be either good or bad (and Askor being hot tempered like lots of the birds) where Gulo would be an evil exception?
I'm not very far in at all, so correct me if this makes zero sense, but that's how it came across. The dad sounded like a just King (or at least a Verdauga type guy) whereas Askor would be like Warbeak and Gulo like that one bird that tried to kill me in Mossflower. ;)
I always just assumed wolverines were bad since you get a lot more of Gulo since he's the main bad guy and Askor didn't seem all that nice. I don't remember much about the little bit it tells of the Lands of Ice and Snow but their father could've been better than some vermin since he was in charge and I doubt anyone dared disobey him since he had two wolverine sons and a vicious army.
We didn't see enough of Askor to really judge him, but from what we did get, he was simply trying to stop Gulo from being King.
What I gathered, was that Gulo was a murdering vicious warlord that would kill anything in his way, Askor was just a more cowardly, cunning version of him, willing to do anything to get what he wanted, but not capable of dealing with Gulo with Gulo's army behind him.
Askor didn't want Gulo to be king but it never said that he wanted to be king.
But the only conceivable reason for him to stop Gulo from being king is because he had someone else in mind, himself being the only other candidate that the Ermine and Arctic Foxes would accept. It said in the first chapter that Askor only fled because Gulo had the support of the Ermine.
But did that make him evil?
Being related to Gulo seems like the only thing holding him down.
((Again I'm not done with it so if I'm uneducated just tell me.))
Honestly, Askor doesn't show up much more. I am pretty sure though that it states that Askor fled cowardly, to prevent Gulo from becoming king because he was trying to become king himself, this in and of itself is not evil except that he was willing to use any method to do so.
It sounds like a very human thing to do, really.
I kind of wish there was more of Askor in the story, or even, more of the wolverines, but it appears he played his role: Dragging the Walking Stone down to Mossflower where Gulo would follow and bring conflict.
Possibly spoilers, not sure how far you've gotten.
Now what I found interesting is that Askor was said to have lifted up the tree that fell on him, right? That means that the wolverines were incredibly powerful, arguably as strong as badgers. Makes me wish even more that there was a clash between giants.
Quote from: Skarzs on August 31, 2016, 04:06:30 PM
Possibly spoilers, not sure how far you've gotten.
Now what I found interesting is that Askor was said to have lifted up the tree that fell on him, right? That means that the wolverines were incredibly powerful, arguably as strong as badgers. Makes me wish even more that there was a clash between giants.
Spoiler
Wolverines in real life are significantly larger than European badgers, so I'd expect them to be larger and stronger.
Quote from: James Gryphon on August 31, 2016, 04:29:14 PM
Quote from: Skarzs on August 31, 2016, 04:06:30 PM
Possibly spoilers, not sure how far you've gotten.
Now what I found interesting is that Askor was said to have lifted up the tree that fell on him, right? That means that the wolverines were incredibly powerful, arguably as strong as badgers. Makes me wish even more that there was a clash between giants.
Spoiler
Wolverines in real life are significantly larger than European badgers, so I'd expect them to be larger and stronger.
Spoiler
The real question is how in the heck did the walking stone survive in the lands of ice and snow?
Quote from: LT Sandpaw on August 31, 2016, 04:50:26 PM
Quote from: James Gryphon on August 31, 2016, 04:29:14 PM
Quote from: Skarzs on August 31, 2016, 04:06:30 PM
Possibly spoilers, not sure how far you've gotten.
Now what I found interesting is that Askor was said to have lifted up the tree that fell on him, right? That means that the wolverines were incredibly powerful, arguably as strong as badgers. Makes me wish even more that there was a clash between giants.
Spoiler
Wolverines in real life are significantly larger than European badgers, so I'd expect them to be larger and stronger.
Spoiler
The real question is how in the heck did the walking stone survive in the lands of ice and snow?
Spoiler
The "Barely Walking" stone. (You know, because it's so cold?)
This stuff doesn't need to be in spoilers, my gosh. ;D
I think a decent analogy is that Askor had ruled like Verdauga, while Gulo ruled like Tsarmina. Neither are good, but one is better than another,
Trump vs Clinton.Quote from: Ashleg on August 31, 2016, 09:29:18 PM
This stuff doesn't need to be in spoilers, my gosh. ;D
Well, we didn't want to spoil things that you may have not read yet, so we decided to err on the side of caution.
Quote from: Ashleg on August 31, 2016, 02:48:45 AM
Askor didn't want Gulo to be king but it never said that he wanted to be king.
One thing I found interesting is that wolverines are the only brave vermin species in the series. Gulo le his army from the front and also showed no signs of fear when his intimidation tactics didn't work against Tam. He even respected the squirrel's bravery, saying eating his heart would give him strength. Askor, on the other hand, when he was pinned under the tree advised the two travellers, their names escape me at the moment, I believe one of them was a hedgehog to eat him once he died before his flesh spoiled. He also did not want any help and showed no signs of fear of death. He obviously must have known he was dying as he was pinned under a massive tree which had fallen on top of him and broken his back. He even tried to lift it and subsequently died as a result.
Now this is just my opinion but I think a better ending would have been if with Gulo's horde depleted that Askor and Gulo would fight each other for the walking stone. With Askor emerging as the winner and returning to the land of ice and snow. As he obviously had no interest in conquering Redwall and it would have made more sense to have a wolverine vs. wolverine battle. Plus it would have been a different ending than usual.
Yeah, I agree.
I wouldn't go as far to say that wolverines are the only brave vermin,
Wearats (pretty sure I spelled that wrong), Snakes, Ulbaz's Lizards and most wildcat leaders were rather brave, though I think that wolverines are the bravest by default.
Quote from: Inquisitor on December 20, 2016, 02:22:01 AM
I wouldn't go as far to say that wolverines are the only brave vermin,
Wearats (pretty sure I spelled that wrong), Snakes, Ulbaz's Lizards and most wildcat leaders were rather brave, though I think that wolverines are the bravest by default.
I mostly agree however when I said brave vermin species I meant that all of the members of this species did not exhibit any fear what so ever of certain death (Askor and tree) or facing a skilled warrior in single combat- even being impressed at their foe's bravery (Gulo and Tam). The other species as a
whole don't really meet this criteria. Meaning that wolverines were the only evil species who were just as brave as woodland/good species fighters.
Wearats- (I think they're the only other vermin species who might meet the above definition of brave species)
1. The one from Mossflower did meet the above criteria- he fought Matthias 1 on 1 without expecting or wanting any outside help and even managed to defeat him. He wasn't scared at any point in the battle.
2. Razzid Wearat- was scared of the Rogue Crew- he choose not to attack them the second time instead going for Redwall and we never really see him fighting in single 1 on 1 combat.
3. Kharanjool- its unclear with him- he stood by watching as the small posy led by Bragoon and Sarobando fought his 20 horde beasts stationed on the other side of the log and he also sent in troops after them from the opposing side. However only at the end of the fight did he and the rest of his horde head towards them- when the mortally wounded Brag and Saro tipped the log into the abyss with spears. Its unclear why he waited until the end of the fight to head towards the enemy or engage them personally.
Snakes seem to be semi-sentient not necessarily the same as "vermin". Therefore imo its kind of debateable whether you can use such descriptors for them-I mean you can't really describe "animals" or not fully sentient beings as brave or cowardly- this applies more to humans or "sentients".
Ulbaz's lizards- I don't remember them being particularly brave or doing anything that would meet the above definition.
Wildcats
Tsarmina- Was terrified of Argulor and would not face him in single combat and because of her fear wanted to kill him. She also I think jumped through a window to get into her castle from the courtyard when he came towards her.
Ungatt Trunn- Harder to determine. He did face Lord Brocktree in single combat but arranged to have Doomeye shoot and kill him in the event that the badger was starting to win the fight. He didn't expect to lose the fight as he was certain he had "insurance" if it was going against him. He also showed a fear of death and begged Brocktree to spare him upon losing the fight. So he kind of meets the above criteria and at the same time doesn't.
Verduga Greeneyes- We don't see him fight or get placed in a situation where he is knowingly facing death. He respected Martin's bravery but at the same time so did Trunn of Brocktree's father and the old hares during the siege and conquest of Salamandastron.
Riggu Felis- He was willing to attack Pandilon- but probably because he didn't expect him to be able to free himself and fly off and grab his face. But he didn't fear the goshawk afterwards either and managed to kill him. He also showed no fear of any enemy so I would say he was brave as per the above.
Quote from: Grond on December 21, 2016, 06:12:05 AM
Wearats- (I think they're the only other vermin species who might meet the above definition of brave species)
1. The one from Mattimeo did meet the above criteria- he fought Matthias 1 on 1 without expecting or wanting any outside help and even managed to defeat him. He wasn't scared at any point in the battle.
2. Razzid Wearat- was scared of the Rogue Crew- he choose not to attack them the second time instead going for Redwall and we never really see him fighting in single 1 on 1 combat.
3. Kharanjool- its unclear with him- he stood by watching as the small posy led by Bragoon and Sarobando fought his 20 horde beasts stationed on the other side of the log and he also sent in troops after them from the opposing side. However only at the end of the fight did he and the rest of his horde head towards them- when the mortally wounded Brag and Saro tipped the log into the abyss with spears. Its unclear why he waited until the end of the fight to head towards the enemy or engage them personally.
Razzid is the only "Wearat (Weasel x rat)" in the series, so that species probably isn't too courageous.
Kharanjool and the beast who fights Matthias in Mattimeo were "Wearets (Weasel x Ferret), a different species. Of the two examples we see of them, one could be called courageous, despite seeming like dumb muscle. He didn't speak, I don't think, just fought Matthias like a mindless berserker. Kharanjool is a tricky one, though, I agree.
Oh, and with wildcats from High Rhulain, Pitru is also pretty cowardly towards the end, despite acting tough in the beginning, to say nothing of Fellis's other son.
Pitru was a teenager, I think that explains it. :P
His mother was very brave in my opinion, she stood up to her WARLORD!husband a lot.
Quote from: Grond on December 21, 2016, 06:12:05 AM
Quote from: Inquisitor on December 20, 2016, 02:22:01 AM
I wouldn't go as far to say that wolverines are the only brave vermin,
Wearats (pretty sure I spelled that wrong), Snakes, Ulbaz's Lizards and most wildcat leaders were rather brave, though I think that wolverines are the bravest by default.
I mostly agree however when I said brave vermin species I meant that all of the members of this species did not exhibit any fear what so ever of certain death (Askor and tree) or facing a skilled warrior in single combat- even being impressed at their foe's bravery (Gulo and Tam). The other species as a whole don't really meet this criteria. Meaning that wolverines were the only evil species who were just as brave as woodland/good species fighters.
Wearats- (I think they're the only other vermin species who might meet the above definition of brave species)
1. The one from Mattimeo did meet the above criteria- he fought Matthias 1 on 1 without expecting or wanting any outside help and even managed to defeat him. He wasn't scared at any point in the battle.
Fair
2. Razzid Wearat- was scared of the Rogue Crew- he choose not to attack them the second time instead going for Redwall and we never really see him fighting in single 1 on 1 combat.
Fair enough except for what Groddil pointed out.
3. Kharanjool- its unclear with him- he stood by watching as the small posy led by Bragoon and Sarobando fought his 20 horde beasts stationed on the other side of the log and he also sent in troops after them from the opposing side. However only at the end of the fight did he and the rest of his horde head towards them- when the mortally wounded Brag and Saro tipped the log into the abyss with spears. Its unclear why he waited until the end of the fight to head towards the enemy or engage them personally.
Fair enough
Snakes seem to be semi-sentient not necessarily the same as "vermin". Therefore imo its kind of debateable whether you can use such descriptors for them-I mean you can't really describe "animals" or not fully sentient beings as brave or cowardly- this applies more to humans or "sentients".
I meant Adders in particular, most snakes aren't all that brave. But only a small few are semi-sentient. The whole "not necessarily vermin" point is fair however
Ulbaz's lizards- I don't remember them being particularly brave or doing anything that would meet the above definition.
Lask's lizards, once they realized they would not win the battle for redwall, made a tactical retreat, not entirely unlike a long patrol hare would.
Wildcats
Tsarmina- Was terrified of Argulor and would not face him in single combat and because of her fear wanted to kill him. She also I think jumped through a window to get into her castle from the courtyard when he came towards her.
when i said, most wildcat warlords, this was the exception.
Ungatt Trunn- Harder to determine. He did face Lord Brocktree in single combat but arranged to have Doomeye shoot and kill him in the event that the badger was starting to win the fight. He didn't expect to lose the fight as he was certain he had "insurance" if it was going against him. He also showed a fear of death and begged Brocktree to spare him upon losing the fight. So he kind of meets the above criteria and at the same time doesn't.
To be fair, Gulo was never put at Tam's complete mercy.
Verduga Greeneyes- We don't see him fight or get placed in a situation where he is knowingly facing death. He respected Martin's bravery but at the same time so did Trunn of Brocktree's father and the old hares during the siege and conquest of Salamandastron.
Fair
Riggu Felis- He was willing to attack Pandilon- but probably because he didn't expect him to be able to free himself and fly off and grab his face. But he didn't fear the goshawk afterwards either and managed to kill him. He also showed no fear of any enemy so I would say he was brave as per the above.
Fair
I'd also like to point out that we only ever saw two wolverines, as opposed to four Wildcats and three half-rat species.
Fearing death isn't a bad thing, and some fear is good. Having those two doesn't make you not brave, and not fearing either of those isn't very smart.
QuoteKharanjool
I just love that name
Where is that from?
Kahranjool is the fox from Lord Brocktree who got killed by Bucko Bigbones.
No, he's the wearet from Loamhedge and it's spelt Kharanjul. The fox is Karangool.
Okay, misspelling on my part.
But how do you know it's the wearet Al meant and not the fox?
It's more likely he was talking about the wearat, since that's what was being discussed by Groddil, Grond, and Inq.
Wolverines in real life are pretty fantastic they have great endurance and are pretty good dads. I seen a documentary where they said seen one walking with his son and grandkids
Hm. Cool.
On that same token, mice eat their own young sometimes and otters and badgers eat mice and hedgehogs and other rodents.
So. . . Yeah. XD XP
So that's what was going on between Nimballo and his dad.
Somebeast wanted a Nimballo-kabob.
Nimballabob.
The idea of canniballism in the Redwall universe is a bit vague, to me. What constitutes as cannibalism? They- Redwallers- have seen birds eaten, and while saying it's horrid, don't call it cannibalism, despite birds having a level of intelligence throughout the series.
Mammals eating mammals.
I suppose so. There doesn't seem to be a definitive rule.
Any time a mammal has been eaten, it is called cannibalism.
Birds can eat mammals and vice-versa, Woodlanders let birds eat vermin but say it's bad when vermin eat birds.
Everybeast eats fish and fish don't seem to speak or be able to communicate in the way the rest of the world is.
I think there was one instance of "cannibalistic toads"--if that was right, then I think the rule is if it walks on two legs and can talk (or is of a species where that is normal) then it is cannibalism.
Although birds can talk, they do not walk on two legs (Yes, I know birds have only two legs. You know what I mean. Upright.)
It's like Goofy eating Mickey Mouse. Wouldn't be cannibalism in our world (assuming they are a normal dog and mouse, and yes, dogs eat mice) but in theirs it certainly is.
Quote from: Ashleg on March 05, 2017, 03:40:12 AM
Okay, misspelling on my part.
But how do you know it's the wearet Al meant and not the fox?
I looked it up on the redwall wiki. Kharanjul is the awesome wearet and Karangool is the awesome fox.
Also, Askor never said he wanted to be king very badly and that's why he stole the walking stone like some people are saying. :P He even said in the book that Gulo was going to kill him too and become a wrathful horrible beast too everyone so that's why he stole the walking stone. I kind of see Dramz, Gulo and Askor being a little like Verdauga, Tsarmina and Gingivere olny with Askor being more of a jerk than Gingivere.