If every one of the main antagonists/villains/warlords/whatever you want to call them fought each other, each with an army of 100 supporting them (can't have unfair advantages due to numbers), who would win and why?
I personally think that Tsarmina (spelling?) would win because she's a merciless fighter and a pretty smart strategist if you ask me, 2nd I'd say would be Badrang, 3rd Ferhago the assassin.
What do you guys think?
Tsarmina was insane and vastly overrated. Her success as a villain was more due to nastiness than military prowess.
You need to give more context. Some villains are corsairs, some had fortresses, some had skills in political intrigue, some led powerful campaigns.
If it's just a straight up fight on flat terrain I'd go with Cluny or maybe Ungatt Trunn.
Here are my top 3:
Trunn is very probable. He was clever and had great leadership.
Vilaya the Sable Queen was extremely smart.
Gulo is like a one man army, great as a fighter, but not so much as a thinker. Still great!
Yes on a flat battlefield. Nothing to hide behind or anything, just an all out fight to the last army standing. And this is with the MAIN antagonists, so for example, Clogg would not be included. It's the main villain from each book fighting with an army of 100. The armies of 100 are perfectly matched in everything so nobody has more experienced fighters than another
With Tsarmina you could just get an ol' bucket of water and throw it on her.
Tsarmina's not necessarily overrated. fear is a nasty motivator. her soldiers fear her quite a bit. well until the end.
Assumptions:
Even though all antagonists are on a battlefield, I don't think they'll immediately got to war on each other. I mean...if that was all of it, Gulo would probably win cause of his size = fear. The villains in Redwall are a little smarter than that. I am still assuming they are all on a flat terrain, but my main assumption is that they won't go kill each other immediately. So here are my choices.
My choices (not in order):
1. Swartt Sixclaw
Knowing him, he'd make an alliance with one, poison them, or get rid of them in some way and absorb the rest of the vermin. Fairly good tactician, he's very charismatic with his own vermin and with other vermin. Note: he absorbed Boflegg's horde of say what 1000 into his band of what...60?
2. Cluny the Scourge
Really cunning, with good influence = vermin loyal and attracts vermin from other armies. He was able to turn disadvantage (death of Cheesethief) to an advantage. Good tactician as well and instills a good amount of fear.
3. Gulo the Savage
One look at him would probably either scare the bad stuff out of the vermin in the other armies or make them join him. also, Gulo's appearance forces his troops to fight harder.
4. Badrang
He is one cunning stoat. I mean it. He held Marshank for god knows how long and played Tramun Clogg like a fiddle, (Okay Badrang did get his [behind] kicked by Felldoh, but prior to that he had prepared a contingency that killed Felldoh, that's good planning...poor felldoh)
IDK they all have their weaknesses and strengths
The most competent/dangerous villains for this kind of fight, I think:
Swartt Sixclaw, just like Sabre mentioned. He may talk like a bumpkin, but this underrated ferret is ruthless and cunning, and very persuasive when he needs to be.
Ublaz Mad Eyes -- because no vermin are immune to hypnosis. The plot might've bailed out Martin II, but it won't protect anyone in this kind of a fight.
Cluny the Scourge, the greatest warlord of all Redwall time and the best, most competent tactician of all of the Redwall villains. His very name inspired fear in the hearts of all; this rat rose from the bottom to the very top and would have what it takes to do it again.
Gabool the Wild might also be a possibility; people might not think much of him, but he's one of the greatest vermin swordsrats of all time, a master manipulator, and, most importantly, doesn't leave any loose ends. Even when his fortress was being stormed, he had a plan to deal with the intruders, and only Martin's supernatural intervention kept the heroes from being killed.
I think that Damug Warfang would have won, had it not been for Cregga.
:D :D
Damug was one of my favorites! However I don't think he'd win. also, Yes Gulo is gigantic, but remember, if this was an all out fight (which it is), someone would easily be able to get behind gulo since he would just charge straight in there with no plan other than to kill. Other villains would stay closer to the back to watch and plan what to do and watch each others' strategies. If it was a one on one fight of all of the main antagonists, I'm sure gull would win but that isn't the case.
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 08, 2011, 02:53:54 AM
The most competent/dangerous villains for this kind of fight, I think:
Swartt Sixclaw, just like Sabre mentioned. He may talk like a bumpkin, but this underrated ferret is ruthless and cunning, and very persuasive when he needs to be.
Ublaz Mad Eyes -- because no vermin are immune to hypnosis. The plot might've bailed out Martin II, but it won't protect anyone in this kind of a fight.
Cluny the Scourge, the greatest warlord of all Redwall time and the best, most competent tactician of all of the Redwall villains. His very name inspired fear in the hearts of all; this rat rose from the bottom to the very top and would have what it takes to do it again.
Gabool the Wild might also be a possibility; people might not think much of him, but he's one of the greatest vermin swordsrats of all time, a master manipulator, and, most importantly, doesn't leave any loose ends. Even when his fortress was being stormed, he had a plan to deal with the intruders, and only Martin's supernatural intervention kept the heroes from being killed.
Oh right i forgot ublaz's hypnosis. he also was a pretty good swordsman in his time, recall his speech to Martin II. also pretty darn good and manipulating ppl. Tactically, hes sound as well. Hed probably match up to my suggested list in tactical skills, but in inspiring fear, i'd say cluny, gulo, Swartt and Tsarmina do a better job of that
How about Badrang vs. Zwilt the shade?????
I forgot Mad Eyes! Totally above Gulo!
Kurda and Raga Bol would probably die early on...
Quote from: daskar666 on July 08, 2011, 04:47:26 PM
Kurda and Raga Bol would probably die early on...
LOLZARS yeah kurda from triss would die pretty quickly. Raga Bol i don't know cause we never actually see him in battle. I think that Damug would die early. I mean there's not much special about him and hes a bit small for a rat.
Post nonexistent.
QuoteI mean there's not much special about him and hes a bit small for a rat.
It's true, there really isn't much that Damug did that the other villains didn't do as good or better, but he's actually a particularly large specimen of the species, being referred to as a "Greatrat". I'd take either Cluny or Gabool above Damug in a fight, but I think probably the only rats in all the
Redwall series that we can reasonably expect are larger than Damug are Cluny and the Gloomer... he is actually very large for a rat.
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 08, 2011, 06:46:23 PM
QuoteI mean there's not much special about him and hes a bit small for a rat.
It's true, there really isn't much that Damug did that the other villains didn't do as good or better, but he's actually a particularly large specimen of the species, being referred to as a "Greatrat". I'd take either Cluny or Gabool above Damug in a fight, but I think probably the only rats in all the Redwall series that we can reasonably expect are larger than Damug are Cluny and the Gloomer... he is actually very large for a rat.
OH....i seemed to get that he wasn't so big. I must've been mislead by the illustrations in Long Patrol. When i saw the picture with Mitch (awesome hare, but not as awesome as the otter Mask) seated across from Damug, I didn't think Damug was so big...
Well, remember that in real life, hares are far larger than most rats. ;)
Just because something is larger in real life doesn't necessarily mean the same scale applies in Redwall, but it still generally isn't a bad guide; hares should be larger than most of the villains they face, just like how badgers are the largest creatures in the books (with the exception of some sea monsters and maybe wolverines).
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 08, 2011, 06:57:52 PM
Well, remember that in real life, hares are far larger than most rats. ;)
Just because something is larger in real life doesn't necessarily mean the same scale applies in Redwall, but it still generally isn't a bad guide; hares should be larger than most of the villains they face, just like how badgers are the largest creatures in the books (with the exception of some sea monsters and maybe wolverines).
oh true.
What about the Marlfoxes?
Asmodeusssssssssss.
. . . He could have a chance of winning. Only main villains included in this war, however. But considering that this is supposedly taking place on a wide, flat plain, Sea Rouges and pirates wouldn't do well, that is, if they're not used to fighting on land.
Quote from: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on July 09, 2011, 01:40:41 AM
What about the Marlfoxes?
tactically they will own. (they did get into Redwall) but they're not much to look at, though they are ruthless.
Ok to make things easier for remembering all of the villains, I'll make a list:
Redwall: Cluny the Scourge
Mossflower: Tsarmina Greeneyes
Mattimeo: Slagar the Cruel
Mariel of Redwall: Gabool the Wild
Salamandastron: Ferhago the Assassin
Martin the Warrior: Badrang the Tyrant
The Bellmaker: The Urgan Nagru
Outcast of Redwall: Swart Sixclaw
Pearls of Lutra: Ublaz Madeyes
The Long Patrol: Damug Warfang
Marlfox: there's many marlfoxes, let's go with Mokan
The Legend of Luke: Vilu Daskar
Lord Brocktree: Ungatt Trunn
Taggerung Ruggan Bor
Triss: Princess Kurda
Loamhedge: Raga Bol AND I guess you could say Kharanjul
Rakkety Tam: Gulo the Savage
High Rhulain: Riggu Felis
Eulalia!: Vizka Longtooth
Doomwyte: Korvus Skurr
The Sable Quean: Vilaya the Sable Quean
The Rogue Crew: Razzid Wearat
Vallug was more of the main villain in Taggerung than Ruggan Bor. Also I doubt Kharanjul would count.
In Taggerung, the main villain was not Ruggan Bor. It was Sawney Rath
With a sorta of ending point placed on Gruven, but he was too lame to draw attention to.
Actually, Sawney Rath was just as much the main villain as any other was.
How so? Sawney died early in the second book, and although he sort of pre-initiated the main conflict throughout the story, he didn't even exist for the most part of it. Vallug was Deyna's main enemy in the story, he was the one that did the most damage, and the main plot (sort of) ended when he died (the rest was just Deyna's recovery, the pointless abbess riddle and Ruggan Bor who didn't really do anything). He did something villainous in each of the three books. Plus Vallug's story fit the typical ferret main villain story. (at the beginning the ferret main villain plays key role in kidnapping main character, main character lives with main villain for many seasons, then escapes and the main hero and villain alternate chasing each other). This template fits Swartt, Kurda and Vallug, but Sawney Rath not so much.
Let's stay on topic guys. Just who do you think would win
I would sat Gulo's horde, they are all savage killers. Second would be the thousand eye army, Taarmina was a great leader and they were all real born killers. The rapscallions would come next, not because of Damug, but because of their real fighting ability.
I'd put my money on Badrang. He was smart and never lost his cool
Raga Bol gets my vote. He managed to not only capture Redwall, but the only reason he didn't capture it completely was the assault of Lonna and the Redwallers use of pepper bombs.
I wonder if Korvus Skurr would have a chance because he is the only one that can fly
...if that's the case then the other raven in mattimeo would also have a chance.
Quote from: sabretache5611 on July 13, 2011, 02:57:34 AM
...if that's the case then the other raven in mattimeo would also have a chance.
You mean Ironbeak? Is that right?...
Yeah, Ironbeak, but he wasn't a mian warlord. Korvuss Skurr (spelling?) was. He would have a chance, but he could be quite easily shot out of the air.
Slagar would be the first to die. He kept running away from fights.
Quote from: DanielofRedwall on July 13, 2011, 04:27:27 AM
Yeah, Ironbeak, but he wasn't a mian warlord. Korvuss Skurr (spelling?) was. He would have a chance, but he could be quite easily shot out of the air.
Slagar would be the first to die. He kept running away from fights.
Yeah slagar was a slaver, not a warlord, even though he was the main villain. So he'd probably not do too good. But I don't doubt he'd put up a good fight
Quote from: DanielofRedwall on July 13, 2011, 04:27:27 AM
Slagar would be the first to die. He kept running away from fights.
Quote from: Zigu's father"Where fate is sealed on battle's field,
And many low are laid,
The wisest mind says stay behind,
And let the fools get slayed!"
Cowardice isn't a virtue, but it generally helps preserve your life when you're a villain -- that is, unless there happens to be an open well standing by for you to fall into. Frankly, with all of the troops and warlords that would clutter up this hypothetical battlefield, I think running away would be a smart thing to do. ;)
When it comes to 100 on 100, depending upon hordes, hands down it would have to be Badrang over Tsarmina. However, when it comes to Badrang vs. Tsarmina in hand to hand combat it would probably be either Tsarmina, or a tie; a tie because Tsarmina is like you guys said, Merciless and Ruthless. But then again, Mabey Badrang Because, He's ( in my mind ) a master swordsman. He's not as ruthless or merciless, but he has better skills with a sword, ( any weapon pretty much ) has soldiers are MORE loyal to him, and also, He's sharper witted.
In Tsarmina vs. Badrang, I'm not entirely sure about the conclusion that Badrang has the edge.
In a battle between hordes, I'm willing to agree that Badrang is probably more experienced and capable than Tsarmina. After all, he was a top corsair before setting up his reign in Marshank, whereas it's doubtful if Tsarmina ever had any military experience prior to Mossflower.
Concluding that Badrang's sharper-witted isn't necessarily the case; remember that while Tsarmina isn't mentally stable, that doesn't mean that she's stupid. She's still clever when she needs to be, like when she poisoned her father (who was a great warlord, probably one of the best all-around villain leaders in the series), and killed off Bane and Argulor in one fell swoop... plus, she never got locked out of her own fortress. ;)
In one-on-one combat, I would definitely pick Tsarmina. The reason for this is pretty simple:
Martin without training, magic sword, or armor > Badrang.
Martin *with* training, magic sword and armor < Tsarmina.
Thus, Tsarmina > Badrang.
Yes but Martin wouldn't be a Warrior without his sword and training ::) ::)
Therefore, It's Martin > Tsarmina.
and Martin > Badrang.
And also, Badrang > Tsarmina 100 on 100
Badrang < Tsarmina 1 on 1
Quote from: martins#1fan on July 13, 2011, 02:23:54 PM
When it comes to 100 on 100, depending upon hordes, hands down it would have to be Badrang over Tsarmina. However, when it comes to Badrang vs. Tsarmina in hand to hand combat it would probably be either Tsarmina, or a tie; a tie because Tsarmina is like you guys said, Merciless and Ruthless. But then again, Mabey Badrang Because, He's ( in my mind ) a master swordsman. He's not as ruthless or merciless, but he has better skills with a sword, ( any weapon pretty much ) has soldiers are MORE loyal to him, and also, He's sharper witted.
I don't remember Badrang ever being a master swordsbeast.
I wouldn't expect him to be one considering his weapon in the book was Martin's sword which was apparently ZOMG MAJYK!!!1!!1one (despite Gingivere's lecture to Matthias). Oh well, another reason why half of the original Redwall is now non-canon.
What about Mokan or Korvus Skurr? I'm sure they'd last for a while
Quote from: daskar666 on July 14, 2011, 12:29:28 AM
I wouldn't expect him to be one considering his weapon in the book was Martin's sword which was apparently ZOMG MAJYK!!!1!!1one (despite Gingivere's lecture to Matthias). Oh well, another reason why half of the original Redwall is now non-canon.
Several things:
Badrang was already a renowned pirate before ever landing and building Marshank, so logically he should be a skilled swordfighter -- we all know he didn't get where he was based on his winning personality, after all. ;)
As far as Martin's sword, at the time of
Martin the Warrior, since it hadn't been reforged, it was just a particularly nice specimen of a sword; nothing more, nothing less. It's possible that Badrang took it because of the type of sword it was -- many
Redwall-saga pirates, like pirates in real life, have been known to use cutlasses, but those may not be as suited to land warfare as a proper European-style arming sword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arming_sword), which Martin's sword resembles; also, a corsair cutlass, or even a scimitar, doesn't carry the type of regal image that I suspect a tyrant like Badrang would want to have in his primary weapon.
The fact that the sword technically could be used for good or evil, which was the point of Gingivere's speech, has never changed. I suspect the magic sword skills that the characters often end up acquiring has more to do with Martin's supernatural help than it does the sword itself. For instance, in
Rakkety Tam, the hero wins the fight because of his perfectly ordinary
shield, not the invincible sword he happened to be carrying into the battle with him, and that shield was properly used because Martin told him how to do it.
Quote from: Captain Tammo on July 13, 2011, 11:40:51 PM
Quote from: martins#1fan on July 13, 2011, 02:23:54 PM
When it comes to 100 on 100, depending upon hordes, hands down it would have to be Badrang over Tsarmina. However, when it comes to Badrang vs. Tsarmina in hand to hand combat it would probably be either Tsarmina, or a tie; a tie because Tsarmina is like you guys said, Merciless and Ruthless. But then again, Mabey Badrang Because, He's ( in my mind ) a master swordsman. He's not as ruthless or merciless, but he has better skills with a sword, ( any weapon pretty much ) has soldiers are MORE loyal to him, and also, He's sharper witted.
I don't remember Badrang ever being a master swordsbeast.
It never said so, but It's probably how Mr. Jacques meant for him to be. Maybe not a master sword beast, but a Warrior. ( evil that is )
I would say either Princess Kurda or Gabool. Kurda can install true fear in enemy's, has a well trained army, and has a cool head in most battle. Gabool operates well under insanity, always has a plan, and almost won against Trag.
Korvus Skurr could just fly above everyone and just pick them off one by one. However someone could take him down once he swoops down. What about Razzid Wearat, he'd just scare everyone who sees him
Quote from: Captain Tammo on July 14, 2011, 08:49:47 PM
What about Razzid Wearat, he'd just scare everyone who sees him
Somehow I kind of doubt he would frighten Cluny the Scourge... or Slagar the Cruel, who's probably seen worse every time he looked in the mirror ;), or Ferahgo the Assassin, who's personally slaughtered and skinned hundreds of creatures... or really a bunch of other villains either.
These guys are all hard-boiled warlords, pirates, or tyrants; I think the only form of physical appearance that's likely to influence their opinions is size -- and then, not by much, since many of these leaders have fought and killed larger creatures before.
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 15, 2011, 05:41:19 AM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on July 14, 2011, 08:49:47 PM
What about Razzid Wearat, he'd just scare everyone who sees him
Somehow I kind of doubt he would frighten Cluny the Scourge... or Slagar the Cruel, who's probably seen worse every time he looked in the mirror ;), or Ferahgo the Assassin...
Ha! Reminds me of a quote from the TV series:
"Don't worry, I'll get over it. Your ugly, and there's no cure for that!"
-Cornflower, from Redwall TV series
Sorry for the randomness.
Maybe not the main villains, but you need soldiers to support you and he could scare them
It's kind of funny that in every book, the Vermin Leaders always control their army through terror and fear, and the good woodlanders etc. always control their armies through friendship and honor. Funny eh? Anyway, I don't have a specific vermin leader, but I think those vermin that have armies with order are more likely to win than sea vermin and tribes.
Quote from: BasilStagHare on July 15, 2011, 07:15:25 PM
It's kind of funny that in every book, the Vermin Leaders always control their army through terror and fear, and the good woodlanders etc. always control their armies through friendship and honor. Funny eh? Anyway, I don't have a specific vermin leader, but I think those vermin that have armies with order are more likely to win than sea vermin and tribes.
Since they all get a random selection of 100 vermin they would all have armies, and would probably order them.
I have read all of the very strong arguments, but, I disagree with most. In my opinion, Cluny the Scourge will always be the epitome of evil doers in the world of Redwall. He was very cunning, very strong and powerful, terribly scary (Scourge-like tail, lost an eye after killing a PIKE), he was strategically diverse (wish he lived longer to see what else he had up his sleeve), is a legend to not only the people of Redwall during his time but also after many many seasons (Ex: Sawney rath opting to stay away from Redwall at all costs because they were actually able to kill Cluny) and finally because he, like all other villians, is truly evil. So while he may only stand ahead of the others by a fraction of a whisker, he is still standing at the end, in my opinion anyway.
Quote from: Scragg the Weasel on July 17, 2011, 11:18:29 PM
I have read all of the very strong arguments, but, I disagree with most. In my opinion, Cluny the Scourge will always be the epitome of evil doers in the world of Redwall. He was very cunning, very strong and powerful, terribly scary (Scourge-like tail, lost an eye after killing a PIKE), he was strategically diverse (wish he lived longer to see what else he had up his sleeve), is a legend to not only the people of Redwall during his time but also after many many seasons (Ex: Sawney rath opting to stay away from Redwall at all costs because they were actually able to kill Cluny) and finally because he, like all other villians, is truly evil. So while he may only stand ahead of the others by a fraction of a whisker, he is still standing at the end, in my opinion anyway.
You raise a good point. Most main villains have something about them that makes them that much more evil and feared(ex: Razzid being a wearat, Gulo's size and cannibalism, Gabool being a master swordsbeast, the sable quaen's cunningness, Vilu Daskar and slagar being slavers, etc.) but Cluny and Badrang and Tsarmina, in my opinion, are great "all around" villains. Meaning they don't have just one thing that makes them a warlord. They have many skills along with power and ferocity which makes them that much better.
Quote from: Captain Tammo on July 18, 2011, 02:06:50 AM
Quote from: Scragg the Weasel on July 17, 2011, 11:18:29 PM
I have read all of the very strong arguments, but, I disagree with most. In my opinion, Cluny the Scourge will always be the epitome of evil doers in the world of Redwall. He was very cunning, very strong and powerful, terribly scary (Scourge-like tail, lost an eye after killing a PIKE), he was strategically diverse (wish he lived longer to see what else he had up his sleeve), is a legend to not only the people of Redwall during his time but also after many many seasons (Ex: Sawney rath opting to stay away from Redwall at all costs because they were actually able to kill Cluny) and finally because he, like all other villians, is truly evil. So while he may only stand ahead of the others by a fraction of a whisker, he is still standing at the end, in my opinion anyway.
You raise a good point. Most main villains have something about them that makes them that much more evil and feared(ex: Razzid being a wearat, Gulo's size and cannibalism, Gabool being a master swordsbeast, the sable quaen's cunningness, Vilu Daskar and slagar being slavers, etc.) but Cluny and Badrang and Tsarmina, in my opinion, are great "all around" villains. Meaning they don't have just one thing that makes them a warlord. They have many skills along with power and ferocity which makes them that much better.
Point taken. why does nobody ever mention Swartt Sixclaw along with them????
I think the probable reason why Swartt isn't ranked up there is because we never see him perform any feats.
All of the great villains have some accomplishment, or some implied strength -- Gabool destroyed Saltar (who was also a renowned duelist) in a swordfight, and it's implied that he took out tons of others in his corsair career. Tsarmina's a wildcat, which automatically puts her up a notch, just because she's larger than just about everyone else (also, cats are born killers; anyone who owns an "outside" cat can testify to this). Cluny is simply loaded with feats -- "Cluny lost an eye. The pike lost its life!", the whip-like tail, the incredibly long career of destruction and devastation prior to Redwall, nearly beating Matthias in spite of going up against Martin's sword with just an iron churchyard spike, etc. Ferahgo, in addition to longevity, easily killed several badgers, and we get to see him nearly do it again, plus he survived the scalding water and effortlessly foiled an attempted assassination. Even Ublaz got to hypnotize several beasts.
Whereas Swartt is more like a younger Sawney Rath -- more of a political leader than a physical one (though Sawney got to kill the original Gruven). While it's implied that Swartt is physically dangerous (what with the armored sixclaw and all of that), we never get to see him smack down anyone except with his wits.
I think that plays a role in his ranking -- if we had a scene where we got to, say, see Swartt massacre toads in the marshlands, that might help him a little.
Yea swartt just didn't do much. So most people just assume he wouldn't do well. I feel like him and slagar would be evenly matched
hands down gulo he may not be that smart but if i saw him and i had a bazooka i would run
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 19, 2011, 12:10:12 AM
I think the probable reason why Swartt isn't ranked up there is because we never see him perform any feats.
All of the great villains have some accomplishment, or some implied strength -- Gabool destroyed Saltar (who was also a renowned duelist) in a swordfight, and it's implied that he took out tons of others in his corsair career. Tsarmina's a wildcat, which automatically puts her up a notch, just because she's larger than just about everyone else (also, cats are born killers; anyone who owns an "outside" cat can testify to this). Cluny is simply loaded with feats -- "Cluny lost an eye. The pike lost its life!", the whip-like tail, the incredibly long career of destruction and devastation prior to Redwall, nearly beating Matthias in spite of going up against Martin's sword with just an iron churchyard spike, etc. Ferahgo, in addition to longevity, easily killed several badgers, and we get to see him nearly do it again, plus he survived the scalding water and effortlessly foiled an attempted assassination. Even Ublaz got to hypnotize several beasts.
Whereas Swartt is more like a younger Sawney Rath -- more of a political leader than a physical one (though Sawney got to kill the original Gruven). While it's implied that Swartt is physically dangerous (what with the armored sixclaw and all of that), we never get to see him smack down anyone except with his wits.
I think that plays a role in his ranking -- if we had a scene where we got to, say, see Swartt massacre toads in the marshlands, that might help him a little.
I totally agree. While I loved swartt as a character, he didnt do much as a "Fighter" type leader, He was definately a political guy. For example, instead of fighting Balefur as a Cluny, Tsarmina, or others might have done, he he killed him with deciet and strategy. Swartt is the Fidel Castro of Mossflower
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 19, 2011, 12:10:12 AM
I think the probable reason why Swartt isn't ranked up there is because we never see him perform any feats.
All of the great villains have some accomplishment, or some implied strength -- Gabool destroyed Saltar (who was also a renowned duelist) in a swordfight, and it's implied that he took out tons of others in his corsair career. Tsarmina's a wildcat, which automatically puts her up a notch, just because she's larger than just about everyone else (also, cats are born killers; anyone who owns an "outside" cat can testify to this). Cluny is simply loaded with feats -- "Cluny lost an eye. The pike lost its life!", the whip-like tail, the incredibly long career of destruction and devastation prior to Redwall, nearly beating Matthias in spite of going up against Martin's sword with just an iron churchyard spike, etc. Ferahgo, in addition to longevity, easily killed several badgers, and we get to see him nearly do it again, plus he survived the scalding water and effortlessly foiled an attempted assassination. Even Ublaz got to hypnotize several beasts.
Whereas Swartt is more like a younger Sawney Rath -- more of a political leader than a physical one (though Sawney got to kill the original Gruven). While it's implied that Swartt is physically dangerous (what with the armored sixclaw and all of that), we never get to see him smack down anyone except with his wits.
I think that plays a role in his ranking -- if we had a scene where we got to, say, see Swartt massacre toads in the marshlands, that might help him a little.
The only problem with Gabool killing Saltar was that he hid the dagger and then pushed saltar into it, so it wasn't really a clean kill
True, but Gabool's swordplay, that we saw, was still significant.
While one would think losing should come naturally, the fact is that doing it well enough to convince everyone (including Saltar) that he was genuinely hard-pressed, while not actually letting Saltar do anything to hurt him (as a genuine amateur might allow), and leading Saltar exactly to where he wanted him, ironically requires some serious skill.
It's true that it wasn't clean, but I'd say it's still convincing proof that he's the real deal in swordfights.
I guess you could say I never really thought of Gabool as that good. I mean I thought his insanity always got in the way of things
Quote from: Scragg the Weasel on July 19, 2011, 01:44:00 PM
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 19, 2011, 12:10:12 AM
I think the probable reason why Swartt isn't ranked up there is because we never see him perform any feats.
All of the great villains have some accomplishment, or some implied strength -- Gabool destroyed Saltar (who was also a renowned duelist) in a swordfight, and it's implied that he took out tons of others in his corsair career. Tsarmina's a wildcat, which automatically puts her up a notch, just because she's larger than just about everyone else (also, cats are born killers; anyone who owns an "outside" cat can testify to this). Cluny is simply loaded with feats -- "Cluny lost an eye. The pike lost its life!", the whip-like tail, the incredibly long career of destruction and devastation prior to Redwall, nearly beating Matthias in spite of going up against Martin's sword with just an iron churchyard spike, etc. Ferahgo, in addition to longevity, easily killed several badgers, and we get to see him nearly do it again, plus he survived the scalding water and effortlessly foiled an attempted assassination. Even Ublaz got to hypnotize several beasts.
Whereas Swartt is more like a younger Sawney Rath -- more of a political leader than a physical one (though Sawney got to kill the original Gruven). While it's implied that Swartt is physically dangerous (what with the armored sixclaw and all of that), we never get to see him smack down anyone except with his wits.
I think that plays a role in his ranking -- if we had a scene where we got to, say, see Swartt massacre toads in the marshlands, that might help him a little.
I totally agree. While I loved swartt as a character, he didnt do much as a "Fighter" type leader, He was definately a political guy. For example, instead of fighting Balefur as a Cluny, Tsarmina, or others might have done, he he killed him with deciet and strategy. Swartt is the Fidel Castro of Mossflower
You're all right. He actually never delivered a physical smackdown on someone, just a LOT of poisonings, trickery and pushing people out of the way. I wouldn't say hes Fidel Castro cause Castro is more than above Swartt.
Quote from: Captain Tammo on July 22, 2011, 04:01:32 AM
I guess you could say I never really thought of Gabool as that good. I mean I thought his insanity always got in the way of things
Problem is we've never seen Gabool fight when he's sane. Except for the part where he fought with the Crabclaw's captain, and thats described in Mariel's memory so we don't get a very clear picture.
We didn't hear much about him, and he didn't live long for us to find out what he could really do, but I think Bane the fox would've come out victorious. They knew how to survive and win in the open, have plenty of supplies, and no apparent fighting within the army. I'd say he'd do the best in charge of 100 and had to battle it out.
Probably, but this is the MAIN villains from each book. I made a list a couple of pages back of the main villains. If there are any errors on it or anyone wants to add or take off anything just say so and I'll do it. :)
I think Askor would win. He isn't as big as Gulo, but he's definitely faster, more agile, and more intelligent.
Quote from: sabretache5611 on July 22, 2011, 06:16:42 AM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on July 22, 2011, 04:01:32 AM
I guess you could say I never really thought of Gabool as that good. I mean I thought his insanity always got in the way of things
Problem is we've never seen Gabool fight when he's sane. Except for the part where he fought with the Crabclaw's captain, and thats described in Mariel's memory so we don't get a very clear picture.
Remember, just because he's crazy doesn't mean that he's stupid. In level of exhibited competence, I'd say he ranks up there among
Redwall villains, even if he isn't mentally stable for 90% of the story.
We see Graypatch masterfully kill off Bigfang, and I'd say Gabool is very probably much stronger, and probably also more skilled than his subordinate... Saltar was said to be a legendary duelist, but Gabool holds him off without any trouble; easily enough to have the ability and the time to deliberately fake it being a hard fight. Though he did cheat to kill Saltar, that just shows his tactical competence; like Stonefleck in
Mattimeo, Gabool doesn't take unnecessary chances, and that's bound to help him as much as anything else. How many villains are there that didn't die from some degree of overconfidence? Even Cluny was offed because he was too focused on what he thought was a sure thing, and ignored the possibility of Matthias chopping down the bell.
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 23, 2011, 06:29:35 AM
Quote from: sabretache5611 on July 22, 2011, 06:16:42 AM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on July 22, 2011, 04:01:32 AM
I guess you could say I never really thought of Gabool as that good. I mean I thought his insanity always got in the way of things
Problem is we've never seen Gabool fight when he's sane. Except for the part where he fought with the Crabclaw's captain, and thats described in Mariel's memory so we don't get a very clear picture.
Remember, just because he's crazy doesn't mean that he's stupid. In level of exhibited competence, I'd say he ranks up there among Redwall villains, even if he isn't mentally stable for 90% of the story.
We see Graypatch masterfully kill off Bigfang, and I'd say Gabool is very probably much stronger, and probably also more skilled than his subordinate... Saltar was said to be a legendary duelist, but Gabool holds him off without any trouble; easily enough to have the ability and the time to deliberately fake it being a hard fight. Though he did cheat to kill Saltar, that just shows his tactical competence; like Stonefleck in Mattimeo, Gabool doesn't take unnecessary chances, and that's bound to help him as much as anything else. How many villains are there that didn't die from some degree of overconfidence? Even Cluny was offed because he was too focused on what he thought was a sure thing, and ignored the possibility of Matthias chopping down the bell.
Point taken. Gabool is ranked pretty high among Redwall's villains. however, its really hard to graps the full scope of his power because he is insane as you said, 90% of the time in the book.
What do you guys think of Vilu Daskar or Riggu Felis?
I think Ungatt Trunn.
Than Riggu Felis
Than Vilu Daskar
Just to refresh everyone's memory of the villains again so they don't have to look them up or forget any
Redwall: Cluny the Scourge
Mossflower: Tsarmina Greeneyes
Mattimeo: Slagar the Cruel
Mariel of Redwall: Gabool the Wild
Salamandastron: Ferhago the Assassin
Martin the Warrior: Badrang the Tyrant
The Bellmaker: The Urgan Nagru
Outcast of Redwall: Swart Sixclaw
Pearls of Lutra: Ublaz Madeyes
The Long Patrol: Damug Warfang
Marlfox: there's many marlfoxes, let's go with Mokan
The Legend of Luke: Vilu Daskar
Lord Brocktree: Ungatt Trunn
Taggerung: The Juska tribe
Triss: Princess Kurda
Loamhedge: Raga Bol AND I guess you could say Kharanjul
Rakkety Tam: Gulo the Savage
High Rhulain: Riggu Felis
Eulalia!: Vizka Longtooth
Doomwyte: Korvus Skurr
The Sable Quean: Vilaya the Sable Quean
The Rogue Crew: Razzid Wearat
Or what I feel is more appropriate...
Taggerung: Vallug Bowbeast
Loamhedge: Raga Bol. Kharanjul is a minor villain (since he was completely absent until the end).
O i changed it :D but I left Kharanjul in there because he was the villain at the final battle. If you guys still want him off the list, I'll take him out for you ;D
It's your interpretation so if you want you can leave him.
But I'll just note that the main villain in the final battle of High Rhulain was Pitru (IMO Riggu Felis is still the main antagonist of course).
Point taken. Anyway, which villain would come out on top?
Ok all you redwall fans, who would win,
Flicheye vs. Painted Ones
Quote from: Captain Tammo on July 25, 2011, 07:25:33 PM
O i changed it :D but I left Kharanjul in there because he was the villain at the final battle. If you guys still want him off the list, I'll take him out for you ;D
Vallug Bowbeast was NOT the main villain in Tagguerung. You could just say 'The Juska'.
Flitchaye vs. Painted ones, hmm.. I'd have to say the Flitchaye because there herbs would knock out the Painted ones before they could do anything
Hmm, tough call. If the Flitcheye had time to deploy their sleeping gas, they would win hands down. If not, I think it would really depend on who had the best leader. Both are tribes of "savages" and are portrayed as unorganized and not overly burdened with wits.
Yeah, they're both pretty cowardly
Quote from: Captain Tammo on September 02, 2011, 02:20:14 AM
Ok all you redwall fans, who would win,
Flicheye vs. Painted Ones
The Flitchaye, o' courze! Bezidez bein' Weasels, they wid zimply uze their herbz an' the painted onez wid faw right out o' their treez. Thoze tha' werenae killed upon impact with the ground wid be killed by the Flitchaye.
Flitchaye!
Somehow I knew you were going to say that. But yes, weasels win.
I think the Flitchaye would win, because they have the weird knock-out herb thingamajiggers. Unless the herbs took too long to take effect...
It depends on the environment -- if the Flitchaye enter the Painted Ones' domain, they're very likely to lose, but if the Painted Ones entered Flitchaye territory, they would perish. Both of the sides have too strong a home advantage for the other one to prevail.
In a "neutral environment", the Flitchaye wouldn't likely have the time to set up their knockout herbs, and the Painted Ones should be able to take them out by sheer numbers.
Since this seems to be resolved: Imagine Mossflower country. Verdauga Greeneyes, Ruler of Kotir, and his daughter Tsarmina have just crushed the woodlander rebellion, and forced a negotiated peace -- his army will protect the woodlanders, in exchange for a regular portion of their produce.
However, just several miles away, a certain horse-drawn cart crashes to a halt right in front of St. Ninian's. Their leader immediately begins to scout out the countryside. The first rat, Fangburn, that finds his way to Kotir is promptly executed. With the newcomers' element of surprise lost, Lord Greeneyes marshals his forces as the invading troops re-discover the building and report back to their base.
Does the infamous Scourge cut into the heart of Mossflower, or does the Master of the Thousand Eyes finally put an end to his rampage?
Plugg Firetail vs. Slagar the Cruel.
Now THAT, I would like to see!
I feel Cluny the Scourge would win because he seems younger, more fit, and and in better shape to command than Verdauga. It would be an epic war, though.
Well, one thing to remember is that this isn't Verdauga as in Mossflower -- it's right after he crushed the rebellion led by Barkstripe, the first one.
So while he might not be in his prime, it's before his sickness and he should still be in very good shape.
^^That's true. :)
I would love to see Vizka Longtooth fight Tsarmina. Tsarmina would probably win, because of her size, but foxes are not all that smaller than cats, and Vizka would do a lot of damage with his mace and chain. :-\
Also, Ungatt Trunn and Tsarmina! 8) 8) That would be an epic fight. ;D
^^Any comments?
Ungatt fight his niece? How barbaric! I mean really..
Then again, Tsarmina imprisoned her own brother, so I'm sure she wouldn't mind fighting with her uncle. Her uncle hates to be out done, so he would not mind fighting her. As for who would win:
Ungatt! Why? Because I said so!
I think Ungatt would win. He seemed to be one of the best vermin fighters in the books
Tsarmina she is so creepy and evil but what is that one wildcats name that killed his brother it has been a little while sense i read them i think it is in high Rhulain?
he was pretty bad
Yeah, I think Ungatt would win.
@Mad Maudie, the wildcat you're talking about is called Pitru. And yeah, he was pretty bad, but he was a coward, not a real warrior.
How about Cluny the Scourge versus Tsarmina Greeneyes, one-on-one?
Tsarmina doesn't have her bow; Cluny has the same armament he did for his final fight with Matthias. In other words, the same as Martin vs. Tsarmina in Mossflower, only with Cluny substituted in the mouse's place.
Given that Tsarmina's family has a certain resistance to poison, it seems that she should be able to resist the barb long enough to repeat the fight with Martin, and maybe win, though she might end up dying after the fight, but what do y'all think?
I actually think Tsarsmina would kill Cluny easily.
Actually, cats are very scared of rats in many cases, and Tsarmina was a coward. My one pet rat bit my cat on the nose, and the cat has been terrified of rats ever since. ;D Not to mention that Cluny has killed animals as big as pike before.
I think Cluny would win
How about Gabool the Wild versus Ublaz Mad Eyes?
Both are legendary corsairs, although Ublaz has probably gotten much rustier, skill-wise, than Gabool. Both control island empires. Ublaz was once known for his sword skills -- and as of Mariel of Redwall, Gabool still is known for it.
As far as I can see it, it's Gabool's superior skill and conditioning against Ublaz's greater size and infamous hypnotic gaze. I imagine it's hard to duel someone with your eyes constantly averted from theirs, which is probably partially what formed Ublaz's reputation as a dangerous swordfighter.
Now, Gabool is probably a bit brighter than Ublaz. They both plan for contingencies, but Ublaz grew over-reliant on his gaze's infamy, and blundered away all of his support among his followers (save the Monitors, who have no choice but to stay with him), while Gabool was able to brilliantly reinforce his base of support among the searat crews -- in fact, the crews were even more loyal to him than their own captains by the time he was done. We don't ever see Gabool getting overconfident, or making stupid mistakes; right down to the end, when his fortress is being stormed by the rebels, he devises a plan to kill the badger and the others -- and it works. Rawnblade was dead to rights, and the fact that he didn't die there by no means takes away credit from Gabool, since he did everything a rat could be expected to do.
That said, it's still a close matchup, and if Ublaz can get things together long enough to exploit his greater size and tactical advantage, he might be able to take down the second-most dangerous sea rat in history.
Argulor when he's in his prime vs. the Wild King MacPhearsome!!! :) That would be epic!!! Two golden eagles fighting each other!
Ah, come on, what do you think of that last matchup? It's no fun to have these topics when we're always talking past each other.
Oh, and Argulor all the way. He ate just about every kind of creature in his career, except for pine marten, and even when he was ancient, he still had the speed and power to evade arrows and crush an experienced red fox in combat. At his peak he would totally destroy that impostor eagle. :)
How about this matchup, if each were backed by 100 birds, who would win,
Korvus Skurr vs. General Ironbeak
General Ironbeak. He should have conquered Redwall if it weren't for Stryk Redkite
Well, why would they each need 100 birds to back them up? That seems a little too easy. If this were 1-on-1 combat, then I still agree that Ironbeak would win. But they shouldn't have 100 birds backing them up.
Another cool matchup would be Gulo the Savage vs. Dramz when he was in his prime. That would be dynamic!
Well, Ironbeak was a renowned bird commander from the North, and Korvus Skurr also controlled a very large horde, so the reason why I assume Tammo asked the question that way is so as to put to question not just their individual fighting skills, but also their strategic skills.
Not that it matters, since Ironbeak wins either way in my mind. He was said to be the fiercest fighter from the North; maybe getting the worst of one exchange with a hyper-aggressive mouse ;) doesn't negate all of that.
I think I read Doomwyte, once, though I can't remember most of the details, but going by the Redwall wiki, I think Ironbeak's resume is much better, when it comes to mental ability. Skurr brought in a snake to do his fighting, and paid the price for it -- while Ironbeak made the best of what he had. Skurr didn't even recover the Doomwyte jewels, whereas Ironbeak -- by all rights -- basically conquered Redwall, one of only a handful of vermin leaders to do this. While I don't believe it was the degree of conquest that Cluny achieved, it was still a remarkable accomplishment.
Plus, while Skurr relies on a grass snake to do all of his thinking, Ironbeak is actually capable of forming great strategies, all by himself -- as when Mangiz's predictions were unfavorable, Ironbeak just ignored him and told him to come up with more positive visions.
Ironbeak takes this one, with or without an army.
As far as any wolverine fights, I'm not sure we can judge one way or another... we never see Dramz in person. It's like having a fight between King Mortspear and Ungatt Trunn; we don't know anything about the former, and whether he'd be better or worse than his son. At least with Verdauga we have a scene where he speaks and everything, and a lot of information about his rule prior to Tsarmina, but with Dramz all we know is that he was Gulo and Askor's father and used to rule the Land of Ice and Snow. There isn't much to go on there.
Ironbeak would definitely win if it was one on one, like Nightfire said.
How about if every villain had only 5 soldiers to back them? Who would win?
Redwall: Cluny the Scourge
Mossflower: Tsarmina Greeneyes
Mattimeo: Slagar the Cruel
Mariel of Redwall: Gabool the Wild
Salamandastron: Ferhago the Assassin
Martin the Warrior: Badrang the Tyrant
The Bellmaker: The Urgan Nagru
Outcast of Redwall: Swart Sixclaw
Pearls of Lutra: Ublaz Madeyes
The Long Patrol: Damug Warfang
Marlfox: there's many marlfoxes, let's go with Mokan
The Legend of Luke: Vilu Daskar
Lord Brocktree: Ungatt Trunn
Taggerung: Juska
Triss: Princess Kurda
Loamhedge: Raga Bol AND I guess you could say Kharanjul
Rakkety Tam: Gulo the Savage
High Rhulain: Riggu Felis
Eulalia!: Vizka Longtooth
Doomwyte: Korvus Skurr
The Sable Quean: Vilaya the Sable Quean
The Rogue Crew: Razzid Wearat
Probably Gulo.Gulo would have fought an army with 8 soldiers.
Badrang. I think he was the most cunning and had the most leadership
Quote from: Plugg Firetail on October 09, 2011, 01:44:23 PM
Probably Gulo.Gulo would have fought an army with 8 soldiers.
True, however he doesn't think and would probably just get himself killed. Look at Ferhago, he took down a couple of badgers single pawed!
Yeah that is true but remember Ferhago killed most of them by treachery. If they're going to do battle than I don't think that trick would work.
What about Razzid? He, like Gulo, uses fear as a weapon also. I know every warlord does, but especially those two IMO
Yes but Razzid was not thatsmart.He tried to break into Redwall by himself.
I would go for Ferahgo the Assasin to get over the line, in that case. He was not only a cunning leader, but also a fine fighter. Cluny would be up there, and perhaps Gulo and Razzid just because their sheer madness and fighting skills would almost "scare" the others.
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 08, 2011, 02:53:54 AM
Gabool the Wild might also be a possibility; people might not think much of him, but he's one of the greatest vermin swordsrats of all time, a master manipulator, and, most importantly, doesn't leave any loose ends. Even when his fortress was being stormed, he had a plan to deal with the intruders, and only Martin's supernatural intervention kept the heroes from being killed.
Totally agree with this. He was very good at manipulating and the story would have had a different ending indeed if Martin had not helped out! Wow, he died in a nasty way! Just finished listening to Mariel of Redwall as an audio book. If he had not gone crazy he could have gotten much further I think.
I think Ublaz would be up there. His hypnotic stare is an enormous advantage (SPOILER) he hypnotized a coral snake!!! It's amazing! And he was an incredibly intelligent leader and let's not forget his skill with the sword. Personally, he's my favorite villain
I think Vilaya could have one if Zwilt had listend.
I think that Cluny would probably win, And here are some reasons why.
1 He was a Great all around villain.
2 Master Strategist.
3 A very good swordsbeast.
4 Extremely cunning.
5 He was strong for a rat, and He killed a PIKE.
Cluny could hold his own against a PIKE, So He could probably do the same with an enemy like Gulo or Tsarmina. Against less experienced Foes, Such as Kurda and Pitru :P,
He would without a doubt, Hurt them very badly ;D! That is, If the cowards didn't Run away first ::).
Okay, scratch the idea of Gulo fighting his dad.
What about Gulo vs. Askor?
Gulo was physically more powerful, from what we can tell in the book. But Askor was more skilled and much faster.
Well, what makes you think that Askor was faster or more skilled? I don't think there's much evidence to suggest that -- all we know is that Gulo was considered to be more crazed, and more ruthless than either his father or brother.
For what it's worth, the hordebeasts themselves all thought Gulo would have the advantage in any fight between the two, and I think they ought to know, so like them, I'd favor Gulo in this match.
Ok how about this matchup: Vilaya VS. Slagar both extremely cunning and both accidentally killed themselves. I personally favor Slagar in this match, what do you think? Who would win!
I'd go with Slagar too
ungat trun he would dominate he had biggest army ever remember? he took salmandastron he would pwn all others COMBINED!!!!!!
OK how about a giant army of thousands of dibbuns all armed to the teeth and steaming with bloodwrath versus somebody
General Ironbeak would win, that or Cluny the Scourge. They were the closest to conquering Redwall Abbey...
ah think et'd be Marlfoxes, then, s'ble queen
Quote from: Taggerung The Otter on November 13, 2011, 06:57:46 PM
ah think et'd be Marlfoxes, then, s'ble queen
That's an interesting answer... Why do you think they'd win?
Yikes, nobody's posted on this in over 120 days! wow :o
Sunflash Vs. Lord Brocktree.
I abstain. It really depends on the individual person's perception of the characters' skills and abilities. If it depended on my opinion though, Sunflash would win.
My top three would be:
Tashmira she is creepy and awesome
Gabool the wild he is cunning and just plain mean
Marlfoxes If it had not been the time when the queen was on her death bed they could have easily been dominant however they do quarrel amongst themselves a lot.
If the marlfoxes would stop arguing, they would beat everyone
Quote from: Marlfox Vanish on April 02, 2012, 01:22:30 AM
My top three would be:
Tashmira she is creepy and awesome
Gabool the wild he is cunning and just plain mean
Marlfoxes If it had not been the time when the queen was on her death bed they could have easily been dominant however they do quarrel amongst themselves a lot.
Was that suposed to be Tsarmina? And Marlfoxes would win easy.
Martin Vs. Luke? (pretend they are the same age)
Hm, that's a tough one. I think I'd have to go with Martin though. It says that Luke was a great warrior, but it really seems that hardly anyone of a comparable size (meaning not badgers) would have been able to beat him. He learned a lot of new tricks from different creatures too.
Yeah that makes sense.
Tammo Vs. Maudie (I'm all Tammo on this one)
Depends on whether they have weapons or not. If they have knives, Tammo would win, but if they were unarmed, it would be Maudie.
I'm not so sure about that, Tammo was taught by Russa Nodrey.
Rusval Vs. Triss (I'd have to say Rusval cause he has alot more expeiriance)
Correct, but not taught in the pugilistic art.
Pugilistic? ???
Boxing. Boxers are also known as pugilists, and pugilism is defined as fighting with the fists.
Oh (Neither was Triss, She was taught swordsmanship)
Monitor lizard Vs. A sly Fox
Right, I was referring to Maudie, not Triss.
Depends on the fox, I guess. Normally I'd say the lizard though, since the only monitors mentioned were trained warriors.
Okay........
Cregga Vs. 100 weasles ;D
Deff. Cregga!
Ok I have a good one, Riggu Felis and his wildcats vs. Vilu Daskar and his crew
Who Would Win?
Fellis easy
Okay, Dannflor Vs. Samkim 9I'm torn on this one!)
Dannflor
Maudie vs. Sergeant Sapwood.
Sapwood. Old age and trickery will always win out over youth. ;D
okay...
Sap vs. Southpaw or Bobweave.
BTW I like your quote under the pic.
Sapwood for the same reason, unless it's two on one... ;D
Why thank you, sir~ I'll be changing it back in a bit, though. Must keep up appearances as a crazy hare fan, doncha know. XD
Sable Queen Vs. the Wraith :o
Sable Quean. She needs only a touch while Wraith needs a cut.
Thrugg vs. Rakkety Tam.
Rakkety Tam. He stood his own against a wolverine! An otter is nothin' compared to a wolverine. ;D
Marlfox Vs. The Wraith
I'd say Ungatt Trunn. I think so because of his violent nature, and because hes a Wildcat (what I've read of Wildcats in the Redwall series, there one of the most wild species of all the villains in the series).
Ferahgo the assassin all the way. That guy is a piece of work.
IM REVIVING THIS TOPIC!!!
Guidelines:
-One poll at a time, usually that will be one i put up. (If you want to make a request, just shoot me a PM and ill put it in for you ;) )
-This is for ANY character in the series vs. another, rather than just villains like it used to be.
-Be honest
Check back regularly for updates! Maybe we'll have a tournament? ::)
Ok let's start!
First Matchup:
Joseph the Bellmaker vs. Slagar the Cruel
WHO WOULD WIN?
Slagar
Slagar, hands down. Joseph wasn't a warrior at heart, and Slagar has the advantage of size, experience, cruelty.... and so on.
Slagar. Joseph was a great person, but not as strong as Slagar.
Joseph fought well, even as an old mouse, come on give the guy a chance. So I go will Joseph.
Dude, take away Slagars' stinkin Bolas and Joseph would squish him like a bug, Slagar is a big coward.
Quote from: danflorreguba on February 21, 2013, 08:53:54 PM
Dude, take away Slagars' stinkin Bolas and Joseph would squish him like a bug, Slagar is a big coward.
Yes!
Yes for Me!
The votes are counted annnnd....
*drumroll*
It comes out as a draw! :o
New matchup!
The Warden of Marshwood Hill from Martin the Warrior
Or
General Ironbeak from Mattimeo
Biographies and other info on these characters can be found on the Redwall Wiki
Who Would Win!
Would you mind posting a link to that?
Quote from: Romsca on February 22, 2013, 08:49:34 PM
Would you mind posting a link to that?
http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Redwall_Wiki (http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Redwall_Wiki)
General Ironbeak
I agree, General Ironbeak would win
I like the Warden but Ironbeak is Warlike so maybe him
Ironbeak, we never see the Warden do much, but Ironbeak is no wuss.
the votes are in annnd
It's general Ironbeak by a landslide!
New matchup! This one will be fun!
Deepcloiler from Salamandastron
vs.
Slothonug from High Rhulain
Who Would Win!
Deepcoiler
(Do Yo Karr vs Stormfin next)
Deepcoiler. I could be wrong, but I don't remember Slothonug doing much but being killed by Frunk :P
Deepcoiler.
Same here
The votes are in and...
The Deepcoiler takes the win!
New matchup!
This request comes from Leatho Sellhound,
Yo Karr vs. Stormfin!
Who would win!?
I am going with Yo Karr,
Hmmm close one. I'm saying Stormfin.
Yo Karr.
Stormfin
Yorr Karr.
Who's Yo Kar? Rings a bell, but I can't remember.
I think it's the big fish in Taggerung that the pygmy shrews were occasionally fed to
It was the giant eel.
Oh yeah, lol. :D
Stormfin... Totally Stormfin.
Stormfin
The votes are in and....
Stormfin wins!!
New Matchup!
Wearet The Slavemaster, from Mattimeo
Vs.
The Gloomer, from Mossflower
WHO. WOULD. WIN?
The Wearet.
Gloomer
Wearet.
Wearet
Are they in or out of water? That decides it. In water: Gloomer. Out of water: Wearat.
I agree with that
Quote from: Tam and Martin on March 03, 2013, 11:48:06 PM
I agree with that
:o
WHOA..... That just DOESN'T happen...... ;D ;)
Well, it did.
I'd say Wearat.
The votes are in annndd...
THE WEARAT WINS THE BATTLE!
New Matchup!
Matthias the Warrior from Redwall
Vs.
Luke the Warrior from The Legend of Luke
Who Would Win!?
What matchup should be next? YOU DECIDE!
Luke
Luke the warrior
luke would beat matthias up :)
Quote from: phoenixfoden on March 08, 2013, 05:18:37 AM
luke would beat matthias up :)
No he wouldn't, niether would beat each other up seeing as they are both nice characters.
This is again very subjective, did Luke ever defeat a Wearat? No he didn't. This one could go either way in my opinion, but I'm going to have to say Matthias on this one simply because I know his fighting skill, Luke doesn't really do anything.
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 08, 2013, 01:52:26 PM
Quote from: phoenixfoden on March 08, 2013, 05:18:37 AM
luke would beat matthias up :)
No he wouldn't, niether would beat each other up seeing as they are both nice characters.
This is again very subjective, did Luke ever defeat a Wearat? No he didn't. This one could go either way in my opinion, but I'm going to have to say Matthias on this one simply because I know his fighting skill, Luke doesn't really do anything.
Matthias
was defeated by the Wearat, he was the only abbey champion to be defeated in the whole book series!!! But I still go with Matthias.
Considering how things went, Matthias bested the Wearat, the Wearat just got lucky with the cliff edge, Matthias had him beat otherwise.
Mathias
How come? Luke had or nearly had Bloodwrath several times throughout the book, many more times than Matthias ever did
When did Luke have Bloodwrath!?
BTW, Bloodwrath is a tactical DISadvantage, it beffudles the brain.
He never had actual Bloodwrath so to speak, that I can remember, he just got really, REALLY angry, like a badger, whenever it came to Vilu Dasker. Matthias just seemed...well, nicer, and although that is good, it could be a real disadvantage on the battlefield. Not that he couldn't fight, he did (and almost beat the wearet) but Luke just seemed a little bit tougher to me
I'm not going to vote in this one because I can not decide.
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 08, 2013, 01:52:26 PM
Quote from: phoenixfoden on March 08, 2013, 05:18:37 AM
luke would beat matthias up :)
No he wouldn't, niether would beat each other up seeing as they are both nice characters.
This is again very subjective, did Luke ever defeat a Wearat? No he didn't. This one could go either way in my opinion, but I'm going to have to say Matthias on this one simply because I know his fighting skill, Luke doesn't really do anything.
well it would be better than killing him! anyway this is about who would win if they were to vs each other good or bad.
Quote from: phoenixfoden on March 09, 2013, 04:11:15 AM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 08, 2013, 01:52:26 PM
Quote from: phoenixfoden on March 08, 2013, 05:18:37 AM
luke would beat matthias up :)
No he wouldn't, niether would beat each other up seeing as they are both nice characters.
This is again very subjective, did Luke ever defeat a Wearat? No he didn't. This one could go either way in my opinion, but I'm going to have to say Matthias on this one simply because I know his fighting skill, Luke doesn't really do anything.
well it would be better than killing him! anyway this is about who would win if they were to vs each other good or bad.
That comment was for humor purposes.
ok sorry ;D
Ungatt Trunn would have to be on the list but there's also Swartt Sixclaw (who everybody forgets about) and there's Vilu Dasker Urgan Nagru aswell Ferahgo the Assassin must be on the list as well Mokkan the Marlfox!
Quote from: rachel25 on March 10, 2013, 05:36:30 PM
Ungatt Trunn would have to be on the list but there's also Swartt Sixclaw (who everybody forgets about) and there's Vilu Dasker Urgan Nagru aswell Ferahgo the Assassin must be on the list as well Mokkan the Marlfox!
Your right about all the villains... except Ungatt Trunn, that is...
The votes are in and....
It's a DRAW :o
New Matchup!
Cluny the Scourge from Redwall
Vs.
Tsarmina the Wildcat from Mossflower
For this fight, Cluny will have access to the weapons he carried on him in the book. His tail will not be poisonous.
WHO WOULD WIN!?
Tsarmina the Wildcat
That's a really tough choice, both vermin were powerful in their own way. I'm going to have to agree with Leatho and say Tsarmina. Simply because in Mossflower she didn't mess around and even had her own guards shivering.
Cluny!!!!! Tsarminia went crazy :P
Also arguable, they BOTH went crazy. I'd definitely go Tsarmina though, she was a very powerful WIldcat, and barely bested by Martin even when she WAS crazy. Cluny was defeated by Matthias (and yes, he was crazy at the time too).
Tsarmina
Tsarmina... that cruel, hard laugh that will put shivers down the spine of badgers.
I'd have to go with Tsarmina. She did go crazy, but she was much more cruel and viciouse than Cluny could ever be.
The votes are in annnd...
Tsarmina Wildcat wins by a landslide!
New Matchup!
Finbar Galedeep from The Bellmaker
Vs.
Leatho Shellhound from High Rhulain
For this fight, both beasts will be armed before facing eachother with any weapon of choice.
Who Would Win?
FINBARR GALEDEEEEEEEEP!!!!!!!!
Leatho Shellhound!!
Finnbarr- he is much stronger. He singlehandedly killed the foxwolf by picking him up and ramming him into a tree
That part was awesome! (Even though Urgan Nagru was my favorite villain)
Leatho Shellhound, all the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He could kill Finnbarr before he could even get in sword range.
T=Leatho Leatho Leatho
Quote from: Leatho Shellhound on March 16, 2013, 05:58:08 PM
Leatho Shellhound, all the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He could kill Finnbarr before he could even get in sword range.
Yea, I agree with you now, but why would Leatho want to kill Finbarr?
I have to call draw on this one. Leatho wouldn't cowardly pick off an opponent that couldn't defend itself, especially some beast like Finbarr.
Maybe, but at short hand fight, Leatho would take him down with a oar and use his sling as a club.
Quote from: Leatho Shellhound on March 17, 2013, 07:18:17 PM
Maybe, but at short hand fight, Leatho would take him down with a oar and use his sling as a club.
Against Finbarr's swords? Not a chance.
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 17, 2013, 08:20:54 PM
Quote from: Leatho Shellhound on March 17, 2013, 07:18:17 PM
Maybe, but at short hand fight, Leatho would take him down with a oar and use his sling as a club.
Against Finbarr's swords? Not a chance.
Well, when it came to far shooting, Finbarr wouldn't stand a chance.
I'm going to say Leatho, but has anyone noticed that Finbarr's last name is Galedeep. Maybe there is a connection between him Kolun Galadeep.
Quote from: 321tumbler on March 19, 2013, 04:54:42 PM
I'm going to say Leatho, but has anyone noticed that Finbarr's last name is Galedeep. Maybe there is a connection between him Kolun Galadeep.
Most likely. Kolun might be related to Finbarr in some way.
thants what I was thinkin'.
There were also several other Otters who had the same last names as previouse Redwall Otters...
The votes are in annnd....
Leatho Shellhound Wins!!!!
New Matchup!
Gabool the Wild from Mariel of Redwall
Vs.
Buckler Kordyne, Blademaster from The Sable Quean
For this fight, each will be given a sword of their choice. Gabool is not insane during the fight.
Who Would Win!?
Buckler
T=Buckler
Buckler no duh! Gabool is such a bad swordsman that he pretty much lost to a completely in-experienced mouse maid!
Buckler
Buckler would win
I have to go with Buckler.
The votes are in...
BUCKLER WINS BY A LANDSLIDE! :o
WHO WILL BE NEXT??
One of them should be Romsca!
Romsca and Barranca. ;D
They would never fight each other!
Romsca and Sagitar Sawfang the chief Trident Rat.
Quote from: Romsca on March 24, 2013, 02:32:44 PM
They would never fight each other!
I want to know what people think! ;)
T=Yes
What about Riggu Felis and Ungatt Trunn?
I think that Ungatt Trunn would win!
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on March 25, 2013, 07:34:28 PM
What about Riggu Felis and Ungatt Trunn?
I think that Ungatt Trunn would win!
Bro, we are doing that one in the other topic.
Quote from: Leatho Shellhound on March 25, 2013, 07:35:32 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on March 25, 2013, 07:34:28 PM
What about Riggu Felis and Ungatt Trunn?
I think that Ungatt Trunn would win!
Bro, we are doing that one in the other topic.
Oh, yea! But the other debat in "the other topic" was about who was better. This one is about who would win. And I chose Ungatt Trunn, the greatest Wildcat of them all :D!
I still think it should be Romsca vs. Sagitar Sawfang
Quote from: Romsca on March 25, 2013, 10:15:14 PM
I still think it should be Romsca vs. Sagitar Sawfang
Same, (since I came up with it :D) And so do Tam and Martin.
You've asked for it, here it is!
Romsca, Captain of the Wavewom in The Pearls of Lutra
Vs.
Sagitar Sawfang, Ublaz's strong left paw from The Pearls of Lutra
Who Would Win!?
I have to go with Romsca.
P.S: You should put a poll in this topic.
Don't kill me, don't even quote my post. Sagitar Sawfang
Quote from: Felldoh450 on July 08, 2011, 03:10:53 PM
How about Badrang vs. Zwilt the shade?????
Now, that sounds intresting!
I think that they'd both come out dead. They are fairly equal.
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 29, 2013, 08:44:45 PM
I think that they'd both come out dead. They are fairly equal.
But Zwilt has the advantege of stelth, kind of giving him the upper hand.
Romsca!!!
Romsca
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on March 29, 2013, 09:30:25 PM
Quote from: Tam and Martin on March 29, 2013, 09:29:19 PM
Romsca!!!
Romsca versus who?
Um ungatt...
Quote from: Captain Tammo on March 28, 2013, 10:00:18 PM
You've asked for it, here it is!
Romsca, Captain of the Wavewom in The Pearls of Lutra
Vs.
Sagitar Sawfang, Ublaz's strong left paw from The Pearls of Lutra
Who Would Win!?
Romsca!
@Leatho: I promise I won't get upset, (and like you asked I didn't quote), but I'm just a little curious why you chose Sagitar.
I think Romsca would win because
1. Ferrets are bigger than rats
2. Romsca is WAY MORE AGGRESSIVE and probably LOVES to fight
3. She's younger; in this case an advantage
4. She's more awesome than Sagitar
5. She's more macho than Sagitar
6. She would love an excuse to kick a trident rat's butt
7. She's rebellious and doesn't like little rats with oversized forks to be ordering her around
8. (IMHO) She likes Barranca, and Sagitar ordered her to leave the island before he came, and that made her REALLY MAD
I not sure, I think Sagitar went up through the ranks, like Romsca, but she became one of Ublaz's most useful beasts. She most have been a good fighter, and a trident is a dangerous weapon(you might argue that Ungatt Trunn lost to a sword, but still). Food for thought, give both a chance, in reality they are about the same in there skills as a fighter.
I get your point on this one.
(http://data.whicdn.com/images/31779048/funny-ferret-eating-rat-white_large.jpg)
I really think that Romsca would win.
Quote from: Leatho Shellhound on March 30, 2013, 02:50:37 PM
(http://data.whicdn.com/images/31779048/funny-ferret-eating-rat-white_large.jpg)
I love that picture! ;D
The Votes Are in Annnd...
Romsca Wins!!!
New Matchup! We are returning to the original matchup of this topic:
Each of the following characters from the following books have been granted a horde of 100 at their command and were given a year to train them however they wished. They had total control of what beasts to recruit or turn away and who got promotions, etc.
Now all of these commanders meet on a very wide field of battle. To the North is a single snow capped mountain. To the East there is a very large pine forest. To the South is a large lake. To the West there are rolling hills.
Here are our commanders:
Redwall: Cluny the Scourge
Mossflower: Tsarmina Greeneyes
Mattimeo: Slagar the Cruel AND General Ironbeak (separate armies)
Mariel of Redwall: Gabool the Wild
Salamandastron: Ferhago the Assassin
Martin the Warrior: Badrang the Tyrant
The Bellmaker: The Urgan Nagru
Outcast of Redwall: Swart Sixclaw
Pearls of Lutra: Ublaz Madeyes
The Long Patrol: Damug Warfang
Marlfox: there's many marlfoxes, let's go with Mokan
The Legend of Luke: Vilu Daskar
Lord Brocktree: Ungatt Trunn
Taggerung: The Juska tribe (100 of them)
Triss: Princess Kurda
Loamhedge: Raga Bol AND I guess you could say Kharanjul (separate armies)
Rakkety Tam: Gulo the Savage
High Rhulain: Riggu Felis
Eulalia!: Vizka Longtooth
Doomwyte: Korvus Skurr
The Sable Quean: Vilaya the Sable Quean AND Zwilt the Shade (separate armies)
The Rogue Crew: Razzid Wearat
So... Of these characters,
Who Would Win!?
Wow! This is gunna be a tough choice!
Urgan Nagru, he was smartest with his hord.
I've made uo my mind....UNGATT TRUNN WOULD WIN!
It takes some thinking, but I have to say Gulo, not only is he powerful himself, but his army was well-trained to boot, they didn't shrink away as much as others did.
I like the marlfoxes themselves but I don't like water rats. Maybe Ungatt Trunn.
#nook
Kharanjul would win! He was a wearet, and his army, the rats in the cave, practically worshipped him.
Quote from: Tam and Martin on March 31, 2013, 07:20:40 PM
I like the marlfoxes themselves but I don't like water rats. Maybe Ungatt Trunn.
Yes! Vote for Ungatt Trunn! Of all the vermin hords in the Redwall series, he had the largest and most powerful of them all!
I think Razzid Wearat because he has a boat on wheels which can be very useful and with 100 beasts as crew he could do a lot of damage.
Quote from: redwallgurl on March 31, 2013, 09:10:59 PM
I think Razzid Wearat because he has a boat on wheels which can be very useful and with 100 beasts as crew he could do a lot of damage.
I will say that he is a seriouse contender. He had a fairly large army, plus the boat on wheels, but I still think Ungatt Trunn would win ;D.
So far Ungatt Trunn has the advantage!
I think I'll place a vote in this one... I think :o Ublaz Madeyes :o would be victorious! Why?
1. He could easily hypnotize any of the other warlords and force them to fight on his behalf, just like how he hypnotized the monitor lizards to serve him and how he hypnotized the coral snake!
2. He was well known as a skilled swordsbeast, something that comes in handy in any battle.
3. He successfully established an empire in which he obtained an immense amount of treasure, showing he knew what he was doing.
4. If you've read the book, Ublaz looks the part of an emperor too. Tell me, would you rather serve an inexperienced slob, or someone who was every bit a royal emperor in appearance and cunningness? This would make him appear as a beast more would want to serve.
GO UNGATT TRUNN!!!!
The votes are in annnd...
These are the days of Ungatt Trunn the Fearsome Beast!
Now... What if we changed some things:
1. Gulo the savage and Ungatt Trunn will not be in this fight.
2. All of the commanders no longer have their armies. It is just a fight between them at the same location with whatever weapons they choose.
3. Anything goes!
Look back at the previous matchup to see the contenders (except Gulo and Ungatt Trunn)
So, Who Would Win!?
Zwilt the Shade
Mokkan
Mokkan
Why Mokkan? Swartt Sixclaw would win!
Mokkan was stealthy, (WAS) a good fighter, an un-matched manipulator. His cards are right for this scenario.
Yes I agree that Mokkan was really smart
But what about Ferhago the assassin, a master knife thrower? Or Cluny with his poison tipped tail?
T=They're okay.....
I'll have to go with Riggu Felis.
The votes are in annnd...
Mokkan the Marlfox wins the battle!
New matchup!
Tsarmina the Wildcat Queen of Mossflower from Mossflower
Teamed up with:
Badrang the Tyrant from Martin the Warrior
Vs.
Martin the Warrior from Mossflower
Teamed up with:
Rakkety Tam Bacburl from Rakkety Tam
Who Would Win?
AND
Would both members of the winning team be alive?
Martin the Warrior from Mossflower
Teamed up with:
Rakkety Tam Bacburl from Rakkety Tam
Martin and Rakkety
Martin and Rakkety (as most people so far have voted for ;))!
BTW, if they were fighting by water, Tsarmina would soooo loose :D!
T=Martin and Rakkety Tam would win (heehee Our names ;D)
Quote from: Tam and Martin on April 12, 2013, 11:23:54 PM
T=Martin and Rakkety Tam would win (heehee Our names ;D)
Oh, yea! Clever ;D 8)
BTW, nobody has voted for the baddies yet. You think that anybody will?
I think as long as they were near water, Martin the Warrior and Rakkety Tam would win easily. If they weren't, they would probably still win since Badrang's kind of a wimp (IMO) and Tsarmina could probably still be defeated by both of them
Martin and Rakkety Tam would win.
As far as I see it, it looks like Martin and Rakkety will win by a landslide!
When you've got someone that ALREADY defeated Tsarmina paired with someone who defeated a bloomin' WEREWOLF you're bound to win! :D
(Yes, I do know it was a wolverine)
Wow the 300 post milestone, this is awesome!!! ;D
So, The votes are in annnnd....
It's Tsarmina and Badrang! Lol jk, MARTIN AND TAM!
New matchup!
Tammo de Fformello Tussock from The Long Patrol
Teamed up with:
Mattimeo from Mattimeo
Vs.
Veil Sixclaw from Outcast of Redwall
Teamed up with:
Dandin from Mariel of Redwall
Who Would Win?
Who Will be Next?
Tammo and Mattimeo. Even though I like Veil and Dandin, those two just aren't warriors
CORRECTION: Veil isn't a warrior, Dandin actually made me stop and think about this one, but Tammo is a little bit above Dandin's league.
Tammo and Matti.
Hmm... I'm not going to vote on this one, because in a battle, Matti and Tammo would win, but as characters, I like Veil and Dandin better. Veil's book, The Outcast of Redwall is my second favorite (Second only to Marlfox), I can't vote against Veil. And I also don't want to vote against Tammo, he's just awesome. You're pitting speed, experience, and age against youth, confusion, and bravery.
Quote from: danflorreguba on April 14, 2013, 08:22:40 PM
CORRECTION: Veil isn't a warrior, Dandin actually made me stop and think about this one, but Tammo is a little bit above Dandin's league.
Tammo and Matti.
Yes, I agree with you, Dandin was a good warrior, but Tammo was a pit better.
Zey both look like great tag teamz. Ah think ah'll zkip ze vote ziz time.
Quote from: rusvulthesaber on April 14, 2013, 11:33:23 PM
Hmm... I'm not going to vote on this one, because in a battle, Matti and Tammo would win, but as characters, I like Veil and Dandin better. Veil's book, The Outcast of Redwall is my second favorite (Second only to Marlfox), I can't vote against Veil. And I also don't want to vote against Tammo, he's just awesome. You're pitting speed, experience, and age against youth, confusion, and bravery.
YAY! Someone else who likes Marlfox the best! :D
Tammo and Matti!
The votes are in annndd....
Tammo and Mattimeo win the battle!
New Matchup!
Tammo de Fformello Tussock from The Long Patrol
Vs.
Mattimeo from Mattimeo
It's the battle of young warriors, Who Would Win?!
Pfff! That's not fair! Tammo would squeesh him! :'(
Not entirely, in both books they're inexperienced fighters learning how to become warriors. During a fair amount of the story, they're both "weak-average" warriors compared to normal main characters.
Tammo. Mattimeo was little more than an annoying brat until the end of the story
Mattimeo, he became an abbey warrior and was trained by the best.
Quote from: Leatho Shellhound on April 16, 2013, 11:29:35 PM
Mattimeo, he became an abbey warrior and was trained by the best.
You seem to forget, so was Tammo. :D
Quote from: danflorreguba on April 17, 2013, 05:03:30 PM
Quote from: Leatho Shellhound on April 16, 2013, 11:29:35 PM
Mattimeo, he became an abbey warrior and was trained by the best.
You seem to forget, so was Tammo. :D
Tammo wasn't an abbey warrior, Be more specific about what you are referring to.
He kind of was, just not officially. He stayed at the abbey at the end of the book, and also received training form the best.
Quote from: danflorreguba on April 15, 2013, 05:54:50 PM
Quote from: rusvulthesaber on April 14, 2013, 11:33:23 PM
Hmm... I'm not going to vote on this one, because in a battle, Matti and Tammo would win, but as characters, I like Veil and Dandin better. Veil's book, The Outcast of Redwall is my second favorite (Second only to Marlfox), I can't vote against Veil. And I also don't want to vote against Tammo, he's just awesome. You're pitting speed, experience, and age against youth, confusion, and bravery.
YAY! Someone else who likes Marlfox the best! :D
Indeed, but I believe we're on different sides... I'm a Marlfox, ye see... Though, I'm not like my father, Mokkan, quite happy to live peacefully... Back on topic, I vote Tammelo de Fformello Tussock, for two reasons...
1: He is a more experienced warrior than Mattimeo
2: His name is really fun to type and say.
Tammo, I didn't like Mattimeo that much.
The votes are in annndd...
Tammo is victorious!
Who Will Be Next!?
Dannflower and Mokkan. :P I'd like to see what yall think about this one, they never got to fight.
How about Romsca and Grath?
Quote from: danflorreguba on April 21, 2013, 07:02:40 PM
Dannflower and Mokkan. :P I'd like to see what yall think about this one, they never got to fight.
I like that one!
New Matchup!Dannflower from
MarlfoxVs.
Mokkan from
MarlfoxWho Would Win!?
Mokkan!!! Sorry, dannflorreguba, but Dannflor Reguba probably just wouldn't win...
Mokkan definately.
I go with Dannflor.
Wow, I'm disappointed in all of your faith in the Abbey Champs abilities, :P
Dannflower easily! You never see Mokkan fight, WHY? Because his power comes through words, not through the blade, he's a coward, but a manipulative coward. Dannflower Beat the day lights out of a ferret with a sword and nearly killed him, he has long lasting warrior blood in his veins, he had the most urge.
Seriously, this took like, no consideration time. Mokkan would get stomped all over.
I think Dannkkan would win, its as simple as that. ;D
Quote from: danflorreguba on April 23, 2013, 01:36:54 PM
Wow, I'm disappointed in all of your faith in the Abbey Champs abilities, :P
Dannflower easily! You never see Mokkan fight, WHY? Because his power comes through words, not through the blade, he's a coward, but a manipulative coward. Dannflower Beat the day lights out of a ferret with a sword and nearly killed him, he has long lasting warrior blood in his veins, he had the most urge.
Seriously, this took like, no consideration time. Mokkan would get stomped all over.
Oi! Watch it! Wondering where the next generation of Marlfoxes is? Well, yer lookin' at one. Dann was a good hero, but Mokkan was the best villain in the series. How can you vanquish that which you cannot see, and is faster than lightning. I vote Mokkan. Sorry Dann, ye'd beat most of the villains, but not a Marlfox. The only way to defeat a Marlfox is by shattering their plans or, in a war, dividing them. Both of those are long-term, this is a short-term battle, (I assume) Mokkan being my favorite villain ever, and one of my favorite characters, I'm going to vote for him :P
You bear the name rusvul in a very untrue manner, and when did Mokkan move faster than lightning, plus, the invisibility idea was squished by Janglur, AND a mousebabe! Not to be pokey, but an opponent that never fights with his weapons, is still able to be seen, and isn't able to outrun you ( a fox just isn't going to beat a squirrel in the world of Redwall when it comes to speed) is EASILY vanquished. Add it up, Mokkan was a politician, a strategist, not a warrior the goal in fighting him is to not let him drag things out! Formidable? Yes, that's what he was until he got killed by a hedgehog.
Just to point out, other squirrels killed wolverines. Now Dannflower is no Rakkety Tam, but Mokkan isn't even NEAR being a wolverine! I'm not sure how yall interpret these scales, because it's really confusing me, someone please explain to me WHY Mokkan is better, he loses in just about ever scenario I can come up with.
Well I still vote for Dannflor, but it would, to me, be a tough fight.
Mokkan vanquished all his other siblings, or at least outsmarted them. And about my name being Rusvul, well, I started callin' meself that b'fore I read Marlfox, so, I named meself after me, not after yer father. I don't get what you mean about the mousebabe shattering invisibility, the dibbuns that pretended to be "Marmfloxes"? Or the "Mista Stickabee" scene? In the latter, he wasn't trying to be invisible. And, Janglur Swifteye spotted Ascrod and Vannan, Mokkan was far more masterful, and Dann is a little less observant. And, correct, Mokkan isn't anywhere near a wolverine. Far smarter, less savage, and a little less evil. I mean, at least he didn't EAT his foes. And, Mokkan conducts many 'Tactical Retreats', but also wins several fights, including outsmarting all his siblings and taking the throne. When I said he was fast, I didn't mean at running. In an all-out run, Dann would win. But, you strike at his face, and he's behind you with his axe at your throat. He only lost to the hedgehog maid because she fought ranged, by hurling chains. He would have won hand-to-hand against her.
The hogmaid was strong from working so she could kill Mokkan from long distance.
That doesn't change that his death was somewhat humiliating.
And no, I'm talking about when the mousebabe wanted to give his soup to the foxes that WERE hiding, not sure if Mokkan was there. When do they EVER compare stealth capabilities? Never, you saying that Mokkan's skill was better is mere blind guess. So when did Mokkan ever win a "fight?" All of his victories were against his own kind, and battles of the wits, so he can beat his siblings, big deal, he's still one of them. I'd like to see Mokkan even TRY to get behind Dannflor, you're acting as if he's your average layabout brawler, you're not going to just "get the drop" on him, especially with Martin's guidance (and that totally counts for this).
In short, we see Mokkan use his axe ONCE, and that's to threaten his brother, we see him run away countless times, we see him lose. His only advantage is his intellect, and Danflor's not stupid.
What mistakes does Dannflower make? He trips on his ALLIES spear, he runs before two different ARMIES, and that's just about it. He knocks the living daylights out of a vermin leader, smashes a giant fishes skull inside out, frees the slaves.
What kind of comparison is that?
Also, you say "tactical" retreats. There's nothing tactical about running when you're about to lose everything! That's just plain retreat.
You do know I'm not getting aggressive right? I'm just counter stating arguments (er... "debates" ;D), I know full-well that I can come across as rude quite easily.
Yes. I'm not wanting to be rude either. I enjoy debating, perhaps I have some shrew in me. Mokkan was the most skillful of the Marlfoxes at everything that we see, so it'd follow that he'd be more skillful at vanishing than the others. He lost because he was a villain, and that's the way Redwall works. In the end of the book, the villain dies. Mokkan would have three plans before the battle, and they wouldn't rely on him getting there first, or on each other. You say that all his victories are battles of wits... most of them are. Wit beats strength. Dann has plenty of both, but not as much guile as Mokkan. Not by a long shot. If the Marlfox siblings learned to stand together, and not try to kill each other, they'd have won the day against the Redwallers. So, if Dann is so sure to win, I'd like to see a scenario where he wins. Like, how they move and such.
I think either Gulo or Razzid Wearat would win.
Gulo The Savage would probably win.
Now I'm just plain out confused. I've got Rusvul talking about moving something or other, and two people who are completely off character! ???
Mokkan lost because that's the way the WORLD works. The phrase, "Crime doesn't pay," is one of the truest statements ever made, in the end, it never works.
But that's a bunny trail. As far as Mokkan being better than all his siblings at everything, that's a bad (don't take this personally, it just is) extrapolation. His plans for the most part went awry, he only showed his quickness once (or maybe twice, it's been awhile). You don't know enough about him to say that he's better at everything, that's just a big assumption (one that doesn't fly very well Chemistry). I beg to differ on wit beats strength. If you're about to be crushed by something heavy, I'd much rather have the strength than the wit, wit won't save you. Point being that all is circumstantial. What Mokkan has is manipulation, and acting. We're talking an all out fight. Mokkan has proved himself to be at least somewhat of a coward, Dann places himself in the middle of everything, and shows multiple times that he's a force to be reckoned with, when does Mokkan ever show this trait? He doesn't. All talk, no fight.
Gotta love how no one else cares. :D I'd be totally fine with this ending in a tie, but it's just plain blasphemous to say that Dann would lose without question. (where's the confidence in the Abbey CHAMPION gone!)
Sorry, I got confused when someone said Gulo or Razzid Wearat, I thought it had changed.
My real opinion is that Dannflorr would win, he's one o' my favorite Abbey Warriors
Quote from: rusvulthesaber on April 24, 2013, 12:34:52 PM
Yes. I'm not wanting to be rude either. I enjoy debating, perhaps I have some shrew in me. Mokkan was the most skillful of the Marlfoxes at everything that we see, so it'd follow that he'd be more skillful at vanishing than the others. He lost because he was a villain, and that's the way Redwall works. In the end of the book, the villain dies. Mokkan would have three plans before the battle, and they wouldn't rely on him getting there first, or on each other. You say that all his victories are battles of wits... most of them are. Wit beats strength. Dann has plenty of both, but not as much guile as Mokkan. Not by a long shot. If the Marlfox siblings learned to stand together, and not try to kill each other, they'd have won the day against the Redwallers. So, if Dann is so sure to win, I'd like to see a scenario where he wins. Like, how they move and such.
T=Haha I do to. I came out a shrew on a 'What redwall animal are you" quiz ;D
Fair enough, Dann. Many of your points were valid. I relent. However, your quote about being crushed by something heavy, well, the point of wit is to not get to the point where you're definitely going to get crushed. If Dann and Mokkan were to play chess...
Quote from: rusvulthesaber on April 24, 2013, 10:38:48 PM
If Dann and Mokkan were to play chess...
Now that would be something to see!
After they both learned it first. :P :D That requires more than wit, (I'm pretty good at Chess, I'd know) I'd like to see how that would turn out too as THAT I could see going either way.
More than wit, but certainly not strength :P "Rahh! I will crush your queen under my foot!!" "Um, sir? That's cheating."
But since they are both armed, nobody would ever actually call them cheaters.
Quote from: Shadowed One on April 25, 2013, 03:41:36 PM
But since they are both armed, nobody would ever actually call them cheaters.
HAHAHAHA!
Something tells me we are going WAY off topic! In an on-topic sense of course. :P I was referring to strategy, which is an entirely different topic.
Hey guys! Sorry I was away for a few days on a school trip. Read the most recent debate, LOVED IT! It gave me an idea. But first, results!
The Votes Are In Annnd....
Mokkan the Marlfox wins by one vote!!! :o
New Matchup!
The following are in a Chess Tournament
Here are our players:
Redwall: Cluny the Scourge
Mossflower: Tsarmina Greeneyes
Mattimeo: Slagar the Cruel AND General Ironbeak (not a team)
Mariel of Redwall: Gabool the Wild
Salamandastron: Ferhago the Assassin
Martin the Warrior: Badrang the Tyrant
The Bellmaker: The Urgan Nagru
Outcast of Redwall: Swart Sixclaw
Pearls of Lutra: Ublaz Madeyes
The Long Patrol: Damug Warfang
Marlfox: There are no contenders from this book for debate purposes.
The Legend of Luke: Vilu Daskar
Lord Brocktree: Ungatt Trunn
Taggerung: I know he isn't a villain, but the Taggerung himself!
Triss: Princess Kurda
Loamhedge: Raga Bol AND I guess you could say Kharanjul (Not a team)
Rakkety Tam: Gulo the Savage
High Rhulain: Riggu Felis
Eulalia!: Vizka Longtooth
Doomwyte: Korvus Skurr
The Sable Quean: Vilaya the Sable Quean AND Zwilt the Shade (Not a team)
The Rogue Crew: Razzid Wearat
So... Of these characters,
Who Would Win!?
Yes! Mokkan won! Both Mokkan and Dann are awesome, though. May we vote for two? If so, I vote Vilaya and Ferhago. If you can only vote for one, then just Vilaya. Apparently, Dann, our debate has made the characters from Marlfox un-elligable. :P, Also, nobody vote for Gulo or Gabool, they'd be awful at chess.
Vilu Daskar!
This is getting ridiculous, I think I'm done with this topic.
Slagar the Cruel
Swarrt Sixclaw!
Quote from: danflorreguba on April 29, 2013, 04:18:54 AM
This is getting ridiculous, I think I'm done with this topic.
Hey, its a who-will-win question, right? Then that means that its not off topic, and that means that its not ridiculouse since it is really relivent to the topic. A chess duel, I know, by hey? Its still on topic.
BTW: I think that Ungatt Trunn would win (of corse ;D!).
Quote from: danflorreguba on April 29, 2013, 04:18:54 AM
This is getting ridiculous, I think I'm done with this topic.
Sorry to hear it bud :'( but Mokkan had more votes
Quote from: danflorreguba on April 29, 2013, 04:18:54 AM
This is getting ridiculous, I think I'm done with this topic.
Sorry. I suppose my comment was kind f un-gracious, and I apologize for that. It
was not my intention to shove it in your face, I apologize if that was the effect. Is there a synonym for apology? Because I seem to overuse that word when... Apologizing...
Lets get back on topic now....
BTW, I dont think that Tsarmina would stand a chance at playing Chess. She was insain, so she would just make ALOT of blunders :P
Let me reiterate what I said before:
Quote from: Romsca on April 29, 2013, 02:16:17 AM
Vilu Daskar!
Simply because he REALLY cunning and REALLY intelligent, thus making him a boss at chess. Also, he was a coward, which could help him in chess if he was (probably too) cautious of his pieces when he played it. Since I play chess, I know it's better to be more cautious than rash and impulsive, since you could end up getting your queen killed just to take the opponent's pawn. :P A good chess player always makes absolute certain their move was a good move. (Which is why I'm not the best at chess. I often make a move without first checking it to make sure it's a good move, no pun intended)
Quote from: Romsca on May 04, 2013, 01:20:57 AM
Let me reiterate what I said before:
Quote from: Romsca on April 29, 2013, 02:16:17 AM
Vilu Daskar!
Simply because he REALLY cunning and REALLY intelligent, thus making him a boss at chess. Also, he was a coward, which could help him in chess if he was (probably too) cautious of his pieces when he played it. Since I play chess, I know it's better to be more cautious than rash and impulsive, since you could end up getting your queen killed just to take the opponent's pawn. :P A good chess player always makes absolute certain their move was a good move. (Which is why I'm not the best at chess. I often make a move without first checking it to make sure it's a good move, no pun intended)
Vilu Daskar wouldn't win! He may be intelligent, but cunning wasn't one of his strengh's. And there were villuns that were much more cunning than him.
I don't just think that Ungatt Trunn would win simply because I really like Ungatt Trunn. He was one of the three Wildcat leaders to actully keep his head, even when he was loosing, something that no other Warlord was like.
For debate purposes, what about the Taggerung? I think he'd be pretty good at chess!
I think so too.....but Swarrt is better!
Mad eyes maybe? his ability to put foes into a trance in deadly for sure. But beyond that he isn't THAT powerful.
Ferhago was a decent fighter, but despite it I don't think he would be that successful.
Zwilt was always seemed mighty
I'm not sure about Ferhago, he was cunning and all that, but he needed Klitch's help many times while attacking Salamandastron.
Many of this villains had seers and helpers that helped them a lot during the books, with Swartt Sixclaw's being his seer, Nightshade.
One of the cunningest villains of all was Vilu Daskar in the Legend of Luke; he was smart, strong, and was a good thinker.
Remember this is chess, a sport where you must have strategy and quick thinking, which makes it easy for many on- ground commanders, such as Cluny the Scourge in Redwall or Damug Warfang in the Long Patrol, to win, as have experience in that matter. They would just have to relate the chess players to their own personal army, and they would probably succeed.
Quote from: CrazyPug37 on May 06, 2013, 11:21:18 PM
Remember this is chess, a sport where you must have strategy and quick thinking, which makes it easy for many on- ground commanders, such as Cluny the Scourge in Redwall or Damug Warfang in the Long Patrol, to win, as have experience in that matter. They would just have to relate the chess players to their own personal army, and they would probably succeed.
In the specific case that it is chess then I think the obvious winner in Slagar.
It's pretty close right now! Surely a victor will emerge!
Quote from: Ajc3000fox on May 07, 2013, 12:36:53 AM
In the specific case that it is chess then I think the obvious winner in Slagar.
Yes!!! thats what I said!
Why isn't anybody voting for Ungatt Trunn besides me :'(? He would definautly win!
I personally think it's because Ungatt's power was more in his numbers than anything. You can't have great sacrifice in chess.
Quote from: Captain Tammo on May 09, 2013, 11:50:59 AM
I personally think it's because Ungatt's power was more in his numbers than anything. You can't have great sacrifice in chess.
He had more than just power! He had true blue brains, unlike most other Wildcats in the series. Tsarmina went completely insain for some really weird reason, With nearly every single one of Riggu Felis's plans there was some flaw, but not with Ungatt Trunn; He cept his cool even when he was loosing the battle. Thats why I think that he would win.
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on May 09, 2013, 06:06:37 PM
He had true blue brains, unlike most other Wildcats in the series.
Literally! ;D
*Imagines all the villains trying to share one chess board...* What kinds of rules would you need to play that way, I wonder?
But, tournament. If we can assume in the first place that Ulbaz Mad Eyes wouldn't be able to literally control the other players (something like jedi mind tricks only working on weak minds), then I would say Cluny the Scourge, beating Slagar in the championship match.
Slagar was able to construct incredibly elaborate plans and keep them moving well enough to avoid destruction until the very end. He basically... got to where he was going, the heroes caught up to him and then they proved strong enough to defeat the entire stronghold of Malkariss.
However, Cluny the Scourge was able to really get inside his own opponents' heads and guess what they were thinking. And he was good at coming up with new plans as old ones were put to waste by the Redwallers. I feel like chess is a constantly changing game, unless you're truly a cut above the other player and you can control the flow of it from the beginning to end. Cluny just seems a bit more flexible then Slagar to me.
But if you don't believe me, just ask him:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2042/1599523641_d17b98bba6_b.jpg)
And, after all, Cluny did literally out-think Chickenhound and his mother. (I know, I know, Slagar was a lot younger back then :P).
I keep bringing up Slagar, by the way, because I do think he would beat every other villain at chess. Just not Cluny.
Quote from: Romsca on May 11, 2013, 05:27:49 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on May 09, 2013, 06:06:37 PM
He had true blue brains, unlike most other Wildcats in the series.
Literally! ;D
*Coughs* Here, let me rephraise that: He had the true
red brains, unlike most Wildcats in the series :P.
Quote from: Blazemane on May 11, 2013, 10:35:53 PM
*Imagines all the villains trying to share one chess board...* What kinds of rules would you need to play that way, I wonder?
But, tournament. If we can assume in the first place that Ulbaz Mad Eyes wouldn't be able to literally control the other players (something like jedi mind tricks only working on weak mind), then I would say Cluny the Scourge, beating Slagar in the championship match.
Slagar was able to construct incredibly elaborate plans and keep them moving well enough to avoid destruction until the very end. He basically... got to where he was going, the heroes caught up to him and then they proved strong enough to defeat the entire stronghold of Malkariss.
However, Cluny the Scourge was able to really get inside his own opponents' heads and guess what they were thinking. And he was good at coming up with new plans as old ones were put to waste by the Redwallers. I feel like chess is a constantly changing game, unless you're truly a cut above the other player and you can control the flow of it from the beginning to end. Cluny just seems a bit more flexible then Slagar to me.
But if you don't believe me, just ask him:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2042/1599523641_d17b98bba6_b.jpg)
And, after all, Cluny did literally out-think Chickenhound and his mother. (I know, I know, Slagar was a lot younger back then :P).
I keep bringing up Slagar, by the way, because I do think he would beat every other villain at chess. Just not Cluny.
Oh boy, that's some tough evidence to fight!
Here's where we stand...
Vilu Daskar: 2
Cluny: 2
Slagar: 2
Ungatt Trunn: 2
Some people where kinda vague with who they voted for so I gave a vote to whomever they spoke highest of!
Ok we'll leave that one for a bit.
New Matchup!
The Taggerung from Taggerung
Vs.
Leatho Shellhound from High Rhulain
In a fight,
Who Would Win?
Oow tough one. The Taggerung had special abilities and Leatho didn't have them. But Leatho is so awesome. Maybe Leatho Shellhound.
Very, very tough....
I will be thinking this one over.
Leatho, from a distance. Taggerung, from up close
The Shellhound!!!!
Quote from: Tam and Martin on May 20, 2013, 08:50:57 PM
Oow tough one. The Taggerung had special abilities and Leatho didn't have them. But Leatho is so awesome. Maybe Leatho Shellhound.
*high five*!!!
Deyna would see the first stone at the last second, duck by reason of his incredible reflexes, spin his dagger at blurring speeds, push it out of his paw so that it would fly into Leatho's sling and rip it from its owner, and, with both otters thus unarmed, would then talk Leatho Shellhound into a mutual stand-down with all manner of polite words.
At this point, they would find out what vermin had tricked them into coming into conflict with each other and take the hopeless sap down together.
Quote from: Blazemane on May 22, 2013, 03:41:03 AM
Deyna would see the first stone at the last second, duck by reason of his incredible reflexes, spin his dagger at blurring speeds, push it out of his paw so that it would fly into Leatho's sling and rip it from its owner, and, with both otters thus unarmed, would then talk Leatho Shellhound into a mutual stand-down with all manner of polite words.
At this point, they would find out what vermin had tricked them into coming into conflict with each other and take the hopeless sap down together.
Hahaha I like that last part!
Thanks!
"It was Ruggan Bor?"
Gulo the Savage
The votes are in annnd....
Leatho Shellhound wins by a hair! :o
New Matchup!
Midge Manycoats from The Long Patrol
Vs.
The Mask from Mossflower
WHO WHOULD WIN?
I'd say that The Mask would win!
The Mask. They were both equal in disguise but Mask would be stronger.
Quote from: Tam and Martin on June 04, 2013, 08:30:20 PM
The Mask. They were both equal in disguise but Mask would be stronger.
My reason's exacily!
I really liked Midge Manycoats! He was awesome but... I'm an otter fan so I will go with Mask.
Mask has 3 votes, Midge, 0 votes!
Make it four, me vote's vith Mazk!
It's an overwhelming defeat for Manycoats!!!!
New matchup!
Ungatt Trunn from Lord Brocktree
Vs.
Cluny the Scourge from Redwall
who would win?
NOTE BEFORE VOTING!!
Give some feedback on how close the battle would be! (Optional)
Rating of 1: Epically close!
Rating of 2: Moderately close.
Rating of 3: Not a close fight.
Very hard, I would have to go with Rating 1.
I think Ungatt Trunn would win, but only by sheer force.
Rating of 1: Epically close!
Ungatt Trunn from Lord Brocktree, b/c Ungatt was a great fighter, I think he could over power the rat. But Cluny was no weakling.
Rating 1 also.
Cluny was smart and so was Ungatt and they both had great strenght but I say that Ungatt would.
Ah'll chooze 2 an' zay zey kill each other.
I think that Ungatt would win any battle, the likes of 1, 2 and 3!
It is decided, Ungatt Trunn wins!
New matchup!
Martin the Warrior from Mossflower
Vs.
Asmodeoussss from Redwall
This battle will take place in the woods of Mossflower.
Leave a rating of how close the battle would be (optional):
1- epically close! 2-moderately close or 3- not close.
Who Would Win?!
Martin the Warrior; not even close. (So... yeah, rating 3).
I'd go with Martin the Warrior. I mean, Matthias killed Asmodeuse, so couldn't Martin also?
Even so, I'll have to go with rating 1. Even though Martin was a great warrior, Asmodeuse was bih- REAL big!
I'd go with rating one and Martin for most of the reasons Ungatt said.
Martin the Warrior, rating 3.
Have you done Romsca vs. Grath yet?
The intereztin' zin' iz zat Mathiaz vaz zuccezzful only becauze Martin Ze Varrior znapped 'im oot o' 'iz trance. Ah vonder vho vould be zere tae znap Martin oot o' 'iz trance, perhaps 'iz Father Luke...?
Quote from: Romsca on June 06, 2013, 05:33:48 PM
Martin the Warrior, rating 3.
Have you done Romsca vs. Grath yet?
That matchup can be next :)
Martin the Warrior, undoubtedly.
I'll go with the rating of 2, though, because Asmodeus was no coward, and he could strike fast.
I would say 2 also. Besides, it wouldn't be sporting otherwise! :D
edit: Martin, of course, as good always wins, at least in redwall world ;)
Wait... 2... but who would win? Martin or Asmodeus?
The votes are in annnnddd...
Ungatt Trunn is the better fighter!!
New Matchup! This one comes from a fan:
Romsca from The Pearls of Lutra
Vs.
Grath from Pearls of Lutra
Who Would Win?
Don't forget a rating on how close the fight would be!
1: epically close!
2: Close
3:Not close!
Romsca, rating 2 ;D
Romsca, rating two as well.
I think Cluny the scourge might win :P
It's between Romsca and Grath
I think Romsca would win if it was close combat, since she was the better bow beast. But Grath, on the other hand, Grath was the better bow beast, giving her the advantage of long-range battle.
2
Umm... Grath, rating 3. Sorry guys, but we don't get a single example of Romsca's fighting prowess, aside from being the last survivor on a crew of vermin. Still, we don't get to see her fight. And Grath, time and time again, hits the target with deadly accuracy, and kills it instantly. If they started more than 30 paces away from each other, Grath hands down. If Grath was allowed to nock an arrow to her bow before the battle started, she could likely win easily at 10 paces. And worst case scenario, she has to use her bow as a quarterstaff, or strangle Romsca with the string. I do remember someone using a bow as a quarterstaff once... who was that?
Romsca killed Lask, remember?
Quote from: Romsca on June 14, 2013, 07:59:37 PM
Romsca killed Lask, remember?
As I recall it, what we saw of that scene was the Abbot cowering in a corner under a blanket, not criticizing him, it's the most sensible thing to do. And then, Lask's dead body came crashing into the door, and his head broke through, and Abbot went outside, and found a nearly dead Romsca. We don't actually get to see the fight scene where Lasky dies.
The votes are in annnd....
Romsca Wins it this time!
New matchup!
Gulo the Savage from Rakkety Tam
Vs.
Urthstripe the Strong from Salamandastron
For this fight, there will be no weapons or armor.
Don't forget a rating of 1,2, or 3 (optional)!
1:Epically close fight!
2: Close fight
3: Not a close fight!
Who Would Win?
Rating two for me, and I will go for Gulo. He was strong, and he never wore armor and still beat his enemies!
Gulo, rating 1
Ah'll zay tie vith a 1.
I say Gulo with a 1.
Shouldn't you put a Poll on this Topic?
1 for Gulo 2 for Urthstripe.
Urthstripe!!! rating 2
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on June 18, 2013, 06:23:34 PM
Shouldn't you put a Poll on this Topic?
I've thought about it, but I don't think it's entirely necessary. I feel poles limit your choices a bit.
Quote from: Captain Tammo on June 20, 2013, 05:34:37 AM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on June 18, 2013, 06:23:34 PM
Shouldn't you put a Poll on this Topic?
I've thought about it, but I don't think it's entirely necessary. I feel poles limit your choices a bit.
Aye, it iz doubtful zat ah could zay "a tie" on a poll vizoot 'avin' tae chooze "other".
Quote from: Captain Tammo on June 20, 2013, 05:34:37 AM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on June 18, 2013, 06:23:34 PM
Shouldn't you put a Poll on this Topic?
I've thought about it, but I don't think it's entirely necessary. I feel poles limit your choices a bit.
Why? You can add all the voting options that you want. :)
The votes are in annnnd...
"Gulo! Gulo! Gulo! Kill! Kill! Kill!"
Gulo the savage is the victor!
Stay tuned for the next matchup coming soon!
I promise it to be an awesome matchup!
Yay!
awesome!
1 Urthstripe 2 Gulo
No worries bud! Before you cast a vote, just double check to see if we've moved on to a new topic or not :)
Anyway, let us resume the topic!
The following characters will be locked in battle:
Matthias Mouse from Redwall
Martin the Warrior teamed up with Gonff the Mousethief from Mossflower
Lady Amber teamed up with Skipper from Mossflower
Mattimeo from Mattimeo
Mariel teamed up with Dandin from Mariel of Redwall
Samkin from Salamandastron
Felldoh from Martin the Warrior
Honorable Rosemary (Hon Rosie) from The Bellmaker
Sunflash the Mace from Outcast of Redwall
Martin II from The Pearls of Lutra
Tammo De Fformello Tussock teamed up with Russa Nodrey from The Long Patrol
Cregga Roseyes from The Long Patrol
Dannflor Rugeba from Marlfox
Luke from The Legend of Luke
Lord Brocktree teamed up with Dotti from Lord Brocktree
Deyna the Taggerung from Taggerung
Triss from Triss
Bragoon teamed up with Sarobando from Loamhedge
Rakkety Tam Macburl teamed up with Wild Doogy Plumm from Rakkety Tam
Tiria Wildlough teamed up with Leatho Shellhound from High Rhulain
Gorath the flame from Eulalia!
Zaran the Black teamed up with Bisky from Doomwyte
Buckler Kordyne teamed up with Axtel Sturnclaw from The Sable Quean
Rake Nightfur teamed up with Skor Axehound from The Rogue Crew
I am well aware that these contestants are not perfectly balanced, though I did try to stay away from favoring any one book in particular.
Characters who wield Martin the Warrior's sword in their book may wield it in the fight (just pretend there are a lot of Swords of Martin the Warrior). Other than that, the characters may use a weapon of their choice.
So, in a massive battle like this,
Who Would Win!?
Please list the top three characters/teams you think have the best chances of winning!
No rating of 1,2,or 3 is necessary for this fight, but you may include it if you wish :)
So are all of them in battle against eachother or do we choose two or one person we think will win?
All of these characters are in battle against eachother unless they unless they have a teammate. Pick the top three characters (or if they're on a team, pick the team) you think have the best chance of winning.
In that Case Zaran the Black and Bisky would be my top followed by Gorath :)
This would be an incredibly hard battle to predict, since anyone could end up meeting with anyone in any order. Still, trying to get my head around this:
1.) If I had to try to guess who would win, my very first pick would be Deyna. This is going to be a run-on sentence:
Every other warrior in this list was either trained in the same ways that many other warriors were trained (Mattimeo was trained by his father Matthias. Martin II was trained by Mattimeo. Even the original Martin may have learned a few things from Luke before he set off),
born with innate strength and instinct (this actually applies to most, but some much more than others--like Cregga, Sunflash, Brocktree, Martin, and I'd even go so far as to say Tammo the hare, who decided he wanted to join
The Long Patrol, showed up in the middle of a crisis and, with a brief period of help from Russa, was basically awesome),
or, at the very least, grew up among forthright characters and must have naturally factored some of that into their fighting style.
Deyna is the one character whose training was geared towards a vermin lifestyle. I'm not saying he fights
dirty, per se, but where other warriors' first instincts are a battle cry and a mad charge, Deyna is meant to move swiftly and silently and strike from a position of power.
Of course, I have to shoot myself in the foot now. Deyna
did charge headlong from time to time. Actually, a lot of times (Vallug, Yo Karr, Ribrow). And not once in the book, but twice, he got knocked out cold by good characters he somehow didn't notice.
But I think Deyna is one of the most likely of these characters to look at this huge battle and realize that his best assets aren't going to be strength or fighting prowess. And I think that of all such characters who come to the same realization, his other, more helpful abilities are far and away the most thoroughly-developed.
I think there a number of other things besides the stealth that would end up mattering, but I can't predict them right now. It may sound flimsy, but I figure that whatever those other things are, Deyna's entirely unique upbringing would keep him safe from a lot of the dangers that four warriors with a similar mindset are going to have when they somehow try to beat each other on semi-equal footing.
2.) I'd feel very sorry for Matthias if he had to go up against Martin and Gonff. Or against Lord Brocktree and Dotti for that matter. Or Skipper and Amber. Or Bragoon and Sarabando. Or Buckler and Axtel. Actually, I'd feel sorry for Matthias in most of these matchups.
If he was one advantage, I think it's that he would feel sorry for himself, too. Matthias didn't quite beat Cluny in a one-on-one fight--he dropped a bell on him. Matthias didn't beat the Wearet in
Mattimeo--he just survived losing. I think Matthias wouldn't charge in with any kind of assumption that his courage alone would save him. He seems to fight whenever he does because of the strength of his conviction about the issue at hand, and that presents both an advantage and a disadvantage. If he's going into a battle like this, where there's no obvious reason that winning is all that important, I don't think he's going to risk fighting hardly at all, which might actually hold him up for a while. But then, if a fight is pushed onto him, he isn't going to have the drive to win, either.
Still, somehow, Matthias strikes me as the most resourceful of every single warrior here. Most of the war with Cluny is a battle of wits (which, admittedly, he is helped with by Constance, Basil, Jess and everyone else). If and when Matthias has to fight anyone in
Redwall, he has to do so without a proper weapon until he finally retrieves Martin's sword. And then, again, when he finally takes Cluny on, he convinces him to let go of a hostage, and then he drops a bell on him. And
Mattimeo is a big chase after a mastermind fox who Matthias does eventually catch up to (again, thanks in large part to the efforts of his allies).
I don't really know. Matthias could easily be one of the first ones to lose here. But I have a gut feeling he could be one of the last. Maybe I just want him to be one of the last.
3.) Brocktree and Dotti.
Because Brocktree.
4.) But if not Brocktree, maybe Skipper and Amber? I like the river/tree capability. Of course, there's Bragoon and Sarabando, too, but they seemed to be written more like adventurers than warriors. They do, of course, take a horde of vermin out between the two of them.
Spoiler
And I think their death scene is one of the most poignant moments of the entire series. Though I suppose that has little bearing on the conversation at hand--one can even interpret the way they look to their afterlife as either the joy of adventurers or the courage of warriors. Actually, I'd say both, and more that that. I think it also comes across as the power of their friendship. And there's something more about it for me that I can't explain--it's just really, really transcendent. And now I'm getting completely off track. But it's a great scene.
Or Rakkety Tam and Wild Doogy Plumm, because of all of the tag teams in this line up, these two seem like the ones who fight the most like one another? They're both incredibly good, and since they've got the same sort of style... maybe they'd act the most like a single unit?
3.) But I think that probably Brocktree. Because Brocktree.
Cregga Rose Eyes 8)
EDIT: Or Brocktree. Any bloodwrath badger
The winner is.... LORD BROCKTREE AND DOTTI!
New matchup!
The same set of characters are now commanders of their own 100 beast strong army. (A team of characters does not get more creatures).
They meet on a flat field of battle.
Who Would Win?
List your top three choices!
I think it would depend on the army, but probably Rake Nightfur and Skor Axehound because they seemed like competent leaders
Rake and Skor
Buckler and Axtel
Lord Brocktree and Dotti
So hard.... but badgers, hares, otters, and of course Axtel the mole warrior are all really good. The hares and badger are good commanders, and a lord with the bloodwrath can take on a lot of vermin.
I think I'll go with Rake Nightfur teamed up with Skor Axehound from The Rogue Crew, but it's a hard choise.
I am going to go with Leatho and Tiria, or Skor and Rake, or Martin and Gonff.
Skor and Rake ;D
The clear winner is Skor and Rake!
New matchup!
You could've guessed this one ;)
SKOR AXEHOUND from The Rogue Crew
Vs.
RAKE NIGHTFUR from The Rogue Crew
Who Would Win?!
Skor Axehound, obviously!
I'm going hare!
RAKE NIGHTFUR
Quote from: Leatho Shellhound on August 09, 2013, 02:18:48 AM
I'm going hare!
RAKE NIGHTFUR
Come on, he wouldn't stand a chance!
Skor Axehound
I thought you liked otters, Leatho
Quote from: Romsca on August 09, 2013, 02:48:55 AM
Skor Axehound
I thought you liked otters, Leatho
I love otters, but for this one I'm going Rake.
But Skor was the more powerful one!
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on August 09, 2013, 07:03:39 PM
But Skor was the more powerful one!
Sure he was, but don't underestimate the ability of a Long Patrol hare captain with two claymores.
SKOR!
And the winner is...
Skor Axehound!
New Matchup!
Zwilt the Shade from The Sable Quaen
vs.
Mokkan from Marlfox
The fight will take place on a dark night out in Mossflower woods.
Who Would Win?
Zwilt, he was aggressive, and not a chicken that made everyone else do his fighting. (like Mokkan did)
Yes I agree. Zwilt would probably win. When it comes to hiding they seem to have equal talents, when it come to fighting, Zwilt is the winner.
Quote from: danflorreguba on August 11, 2013, 05:35:16 AM
Zwilt, he was aggressive, and not a chicken that made everyone else do his fighting. (like Mokkan did)
Nay, Mokkan vaz nay chicken! 'e vaz juzt much more cunnin' an' manipulative! Me vote'z on Mokkan for ziz vone!
Quote from: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on August 11, 2013, 06:16:45 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on August 11, 2013, 05:35:16 AM
Zwilt, he was aggressive, and not a chicken that made everyone else do his fighting. (like Mokkan did)
Nay, Mokkan vaz nay chicken! 'e vaz juzt much more cunnin' an' manipulative! Me votez on Mokkan for ziz vone!
Which are the very characteristics of a coward, he never fought, why? Because he was afraid to fight anyone who's back wasn't turned, Zwilt, as stealthy as he was, often let his foe see him before attacking, that takes guts.
although i don't count my vote, i would go with Mokkan. You see, just because he didn't fight much in the story doesnt mean he was a coward. Mokkan was a leader, whereas Zwilt was second to the Sable Quaen. Zwilt was stuck doing the dirty work, which is why we see him fight more than Mokkan did.
Mokkan!
Zwilt the Shade was way better then Mokkan.
Quote from: Captain Tammo on August 12, 2013, 05:56:49 AM
although i don't count my vote, i would go with Mokkan. You see, just because he didn't fight much in the story doesnt mean he was a coward. Mokkan was a leader, whereas Zwilt was second to the Sable Quaen. Zwilt was stuck doing the dirty work, which is why we see him fight more than Mokkan did.
Agreed. Mokkan didnae fight az much merely becauze 'e found ozer much better vayz at accomplizhin' 'iz goalz zen an onvard frontal azzault. Vot dae ye zink vid 'ave 'appened if ze Marlfoxez 'ad juzt valked up tae Redwall an' attacked? Zey vid probably 'ave been zlain an' zen vhere vid zey be, eh? An' ah vizh zat ze ztory 'adnae juzt killed 'im like zey did. It vid 'ave been major if zey 'ad 'im gae dovn fightin' or zummat like zat!
who do you guys think should be in the next fight? let me know here or send me a PM!
Quote from: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on August 12, 2013, 06:53:34 PM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on August 12, 2013, 05:56:49 AM
although i don't count my vote, i would go with Mokkan. You see, just because he didn't fight much in the story doesnt mean he was a coward. Mokkan was a leader, whereas Zwilt was second to the Sable Quaen. Zwilt was stuck doing the dirty work, which is why we see him fight more than Mokkan did.
Agreed. Mokkan didnae fight az much merely becauze 'e found ozer much better vayz at accomplizhin' 'iz goalz zen an onvard frontal azzault. Vot dae ye zink vid 'ave 'appened if ze Marlfoxez 'ad juzt valked up tae Redwall an' attacked? Zey vid probably 'ave been zlain an' zen vhere vid zey be, eh? An' ah vizh zat ze ztory 'adnae juzt killed 'im like zey did. It vid 'ave been major if zey 'ad 'im gae dovn fightin' or zummat like zat!
Jaques probably killed him like that so at least he'd have his dignity, Mokkan was a ##:1031 fox, BTW, his plans involved the same ratio of fighting to tactics that pretty much every other warlord who attempted Redwall did, he just dis-included himself from the fighting.
Quote from: danflorreguba on August 15, 2013, 05:57:13 AM
Quote from: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on August 12, 2013, 06:53:34 PM
Quote from: Captain Tammo on August 12, 2013, 05:56:49 AM
although i don't count my vote, i would go with Mokkan. You see, just because he didn't fight much in the story doesnt mean he was a coward. Mokkan was a leader, whereas Zwilt was second to the Sable Quaen. Zwilt was stuck doing the dirty work, which is why we see him fight more than Mokkan did.
Agreed. Mokkan didnae fight az much merely becauze 'e found ozer much better vayz at accomplizhin' 'iz goalz zen an onvard frontal azzault. Vot dae ye zink vid 'ave 'appened if ze Marlfoxez 'ad juzt valked up tae Redwall an' attacked? Zey vid probably 'ave been zlain an' zen vhere vid zey be, eh? An' ah vizh zat ze ztory 'adnae juzt killed 'im like zey did. It vid 'ave been major if zey 'ad 'im gae dovn fightin' or zummat like zat!
Jaques probably killed him like that so at least he'd have his dignity, Mokkan was a [female] fox, BTW, his plans involved the same ratio of fighting to tactics that pretty much every other warlord who attempted Redwall did, he just dis-included himself from the fighting.
He wasn't a female.
Ok let's get back to the debate. Remember the scene is a dark night in Mossflower woods. Although Zwilt the shade was a sneaky creature, I feel like none could compare to a marlfox's stealth. Marlfoxes have been able to "dissapear" right in front of a creature's face! Zwilt may know The tricks, but Mokkan invented them.
Quote from: Captain Tammo on August 15, 2013, 05:49:24 PM
Ok let's get back to the debate. Remember the scene is a dark night in Mossflower woods. Although Zwilt the shade was a sneaky creature, I feel like none could compare to a marlfox's stealth. Marlfoxes have been able to "dissapear" right in front of a creature's face! Zwilt may know The tricks, but Mokkan invented them.
That is sooooo true!
Agreed.
The winner is Zwilt the Shade!
New matchup!
Groats the Flame from Eulalia!
Vs.
Sunflash the Mace from Outcast of Redwall
Who Would Win?
Next matchup will be a fan-submitted one ;)
who this should be fun
'ov did Zvilt vin ze lazt vone? Ach! Viz regardz tae ziz next vone, ah'm goin' tae remain neutral 'ere an' zay zat zey vere boz pretty major. 'ovever, zat vid be a fight zat ah vidnae vant tae mizz! Goraz'z Tung v.z Zunflazh'z mace!
I think Sunflash the Mace would win, he seemed to have more battle experience, Gorath grew up more as a farmer than Sunflash. Even though Sunflash did become a farmer badger lord at the end.
Sunflash. Leatho got all the reasons I would say are right.
Quote from: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on July 08, 2011, 01:20:17 AM
With Tsarmina you could just get an ol' bucket of water and throw it on her.
HIAG!!! Why did you not speak in your awesome language ???
Quote from: Blaggut on August 22, 2013, 09:32:08 PM
Quote from: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on July 08, 2011, 01:20:17 AM
With Tsarmina you could just get an ol' bucket of water and throw it on her.
HIAG!!! Why did you not speak in your awesome language ???
:o :o :o
Quote from: Blaggut on August 22, 2013, 09:32:08 PM
Quote from: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on July 08, 2011, 01:20:17 AM
With Tsarmina you could just get an ol' bucket of water and throw it on her.
HIAG!!! Why did you not speak in your awesome language ???
Zat iz an' older pozt, vhen ah 'adnae quite gotten tae me current accent yet. Ach, tiz amazin' 'ov far tiz gotten!
Quote from: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on August 23, 2013, 12:59:11 AM
Quote from: Blaggut on August 22, 2013, 09:32:08 PM
Quote from: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on July 08, 2011, 01:20:17 AM
With Tsarmina you could just get an ol' bucket of water and throw it on her.
HIAG!!! Why did you not speak in your awesome language ???
Zat iz an' older pozt, vhen ah 'adnae quite gotten tae me current accent yet. Ach, tiz amazin' 'ov far tiz gotten!
Oh Okay! I thought it was a recent post.
I think Sunflash would beat Gorath.
Because Brocktree.
No, seriously. Sunflash proves himself to be a natural-born warrior, and he hails from a line of Badger lords--Brocktree is his grandfather. I think it's interesting that both he and Gorath end up somewhat horrified by their own bloodwrath. But if I'm remembering Eulalia correctly, Gorath's bloodwrath often literally becomes a problem for him. His added strength doesn't make up for the fact that he can't think straight. Sunflash, on the other hand, becomes unstoppable. To me, that seems to indicate he has a natural skill for war that Gorath doesn't.
Of course... Gorath does finally beat Vizka in a fight where he resolves not to give into his bloodwrath. And, if he and Sunflash were to end up fighting each other, perhaps neither of them would find a reason to actually give into that much anger. So maybe Gorath has an advantage, after all.
But my first instinct is still Sunflash.
Hm... Interesting points wot!
I think that at least one warlord would hold his forces back and let the others obliterate each other.
Perhaps but I think a lot of them would do that, they all know that the last one with an army will win.
I say Badrang
oh wow when did this get revived? lol
If we're back to talking about the first question, I don't really know who would win, but if I had to bet my life on one of them, I'd say that Cluny would win. He was the first and one of the baddest by far, I think. He didn't operate purely on fear or intimidation, as some did, but also had great strength and a brilliant mind!
That's true, He killed a pike didn't he, something Gloomer the water rat couldn't do in Mossflower.
Quote from: LT Sandpaw on November 27, 2014, 05:27:14 PM
That's true, He killed a pike didn't he, something Gloomer the water rat couldn't do in Mossflower.
Very true. *claps*
Thank you good sir.
Okay so cluny etc are all good fighters, but riggu felis is personally my favorite villain so im going with him. But is u count 101 snakes then they win.
TIME TO REVIVE THIS TOPIC! :D
New matchup!
100 GOUSIM warriors
Vs.
100 of Ublaz Madeyes' monitor lizards from The Pearls of Lutra
Who Would Win?
The Guosim are fierce and brave, but when it comes to the Monitors, they should be heavily outmatched.
Monitors are much bigger, heavier, better armed and better fighters than the majority of the furred vermin species. A few gravely sick, landlubber Monitors slaughtered scores of pirates on their home turf, a corsair ship. It stands to reason that healthy and on ground they ought to do better. One unnamed Monitor was enough to account for the Skipper of Otters!
Now, if this were in an actual Redwall book, the Monitors could suffer, perhaps greatly, due to the massive bonus that good guys typically get -- after all, four or five creatures just slaughtered dozens of Monitors at the end of the book without being in significant danger (which I thought was not very fair, personally; it would have been better, perhaps, for the heroes to sneak by while the vermin all killed each other in a big pirates/Monitors melee).
That said, the villains in Rogue Crew did tear the Guosim up, and I see no reason why the feared shock troops from Sampetra shouldn't or couldn't do much better.
Ninja'd. :P
I'm inclined to say the monitors (too) because of their description in the books as being, if I remember, very tough and deadly, being feared even by the other pirates. They're large, strong, and have claws as well as flesh-ripping teeth and "thick-scaled hides".
However, shrews are always fighting creatures much larger than themselves, and are undoubtedly very capable of dealing with them. Be that as it is, there is always the good guys win bias in the books.
If real life tactics were employed, from the weapons each party used, the monitors would probably win. Gousim use short rapiers, and are rather short themselves, so a creature with longer reach and longer weapons would be able to keep them away with relative safety. The few of them that were there did hold off an army of corsairs trying to breach the castle. Shrews' strength is often in numbers. And since this would be an even amount of shrews versus monitors, the odds would be against them.
Fair points, both of you, but I'm going to go with the GOUSIM this time. I'm particularly looking at the shrews in The Long Patrol. Remember Logalog took down a vermin baddie nearly 3 or 4 times his (rather small) size. And he did so only after toying with the guy for a bit, first, calling out his bad form and everything.
Also, while the monitors may be scaly and intimidating, the shrews have serious teamwork on their side and show it throughout the series. I could see them making a rotating ring of fighters. The outer ring of rapier-wielding warriors and teams of sling-wielders in the back. Their communication and unification (even if they bicker a lot) gives them a key advantage over the savage monitors.
The Guosim seem to be played as a handy little tool in the books and have varying amounts of success.
When it comes down to it, if the focus is not on them they are likely the ones being slaughtered the most in the background.
When there's an important shrew character, the opposite happens.
Perhaps the two would be evenly matched and kill eachother off until the survivors on both sides did not wish to fight any longer.
Well, in the illustration the weasel was only about twice as big as the chief. Monitors are probably twice the size of him, a large vermin. One unnamed Monitor took Skipper, a large otter leader, out of action, apparently with only his built-in weapons. I think that's more than any other unnamed character except for Wearet, the Slavemaster has ever achieved on-page. Ublaz broke a spear shaft smacking his troops to try to get them moving (and didn't do anything significant in the process).
Tsarmina took down Martin and had him dead to rights. We don't know how large Monitor Lizards are (there's a pretty wide range in their sizes in the real world, it seems, and the book isn't specific on what type they are), but they could be better armed than even a large wildcat, and tougher, even if they're not as bright. The only weapons I remember them being referred to using were spears, but their claws and teeth are probably just as good at close range (like Tsarmina's claws). And rapiers are light weapons, not really suited to taking on heavily-armored opponents.
Guosim are great and everything, but I think they ought to get smacked down in this case. I'd personally find it very unfair if Mr. Jacques wrote a scene like this in the books.
The Monitors would rightfully win but I do not think Brian would let that happen.
Not through most of the series, you're likely right. That said, they got trounced in Rogue Crew under arguably better circumstances.
Haven't read it yet...
Looking foreward to that scene. >:D
You don't like shrews much, Ash? ;)
Some shrews really grind my gears.
And I think most of us subconciously want our "heroes" to fail. :P
I conciously want them to fail.
Except for Tagg.
Tagg was cool.
So after some discussion, the victory goes to the monitor lizards this round!
New matchup!
Deyna the Taggerung from Taggerung!
Vs.
Martin the Warrior from Mossflower
Both stand on a log over a stream and must fight with ash staves until the other falls off into the water!
Who Would Win?
Martin was nearly killed fighting Tsarmina and defeated Badrang only after the stoat was previously beaten senseless by Felldoh.
Tagg was actually a good fighter, and was feared by many in his tribe.
He is also likely much larger than Martin.
I'm going with Tagg.
You make it sound like Felldoh beat Badrang unconscious, then Martin walked over and slit his throat while he was still out. ;) That's kind of a misleading description.
In fact, he beat Badrang in a fight without much trouble and with bad armament. And as far as Tsarmina goes, a wildcat in this series is a foe that I think would be worthy of any opponent. Both in real life and in the series, they're born killers. Tagg might have had the best training that the Juskarath could offer, but Martin had both the experience that comes from actual fighting, and the benefit of training from the Badger Lord who was the best fighter in the world (at that or possibly any other time).
In an actual all-out fight to the death, I think Martin is more of a fighter and possibly has more skills to back it up, and that he could take Tagg. That said, in this scenario, where there's no substantial injuries and no lives at stake, it's not so clear. I think it's a tossup. Tagg might have more of the traits (grace, balance, etc.) that would be conducive to winning this match.
What I was trying to say was that he beat him easily because Badrang had previously been beaten down. :P
Is there any evidence of that, though? From what I remember reading the book, Badrang was pretty well in his prime for the final battle. No doubt the beating had been painful, but it had been some time, and he's a tough stoat, and he seemed to have recovered quite nicely.
"Badrang was up and about, looking much the worse the wear but still bad-tempered and active." Page 332, word for word.
And on page 362, when he actually sees Martin, the dude chickens out completely.
And 365? Martin killed him while Badrang was begging.
It was an easy victory because, when it boils down to it, he wasn't up against the Badrang from the beginning of the book.
Again, and Tsarmina nearly killed him--yes, she's big, but unlike Ungat Trunn, she was not raised a fighter. She was a princess/queen.
Rakkety Tam killed a freakin' wolverine.
As far as the books go, probably Martin, because he's bigged up throughout the series as this near super-warrior that they all look up to, so it would be weird for him to be beaten.
Thinking away from that, it would certainly be tough to call. 'Over a stream' sounds like a more comfortable placing for Tagg, but I can still see little nimble Martin holding his own.
@Ashleg: Unfortunately I don't have a copy of
Martin the Warrior handy to debate this point, but the Redwall wiki at least suggests that it was not as simple as "Badrang drops and cowers on the ground and Martin kills him". Someone can look the worse for wear, even much worse for wear, and still be in fighting form, which judging by the battle (with Badrang being 'everywhere at once', issuing orders), he was.
That said, when you suggest that Martin only beat Badrang because he was already injured, you're implicitly stating that Martin isn't even in Felldoh's league, since
he beat Badrang easily. I'm not sure the book backs that up. Felldoh's great but I'd consider him a peer to Martin, like Ranguvar to Luke. I suspect Badrang would have lost to Martin at the beginning,
before their respective adventures, given Martin's demonstrated fighting spirit and endurance, and Badrang being cowed by the exhibition of those traits.
We don't know a lot about Tsarmina's upbringing. But the woodlanders stated that it was Lord Greeneyes
and his daughter that dealt with woodlander rebellions. I agree that from what we see in
Mossflower it's not likely that she has much experience leading and maintaining an army (she generally just tells them to do what her father already taught them), but that doesn't mean she doesn't know how to fight herself. She had some training, given her ability to shoot a bow, and I suspect as the child of a great warlord, like Ungatt himself was ("son of King Mortspear"), she had skills beyond that.
As far as the wolverine thing goes, as I stated in an argument about this in the past, I'm not sure that Tam killing a wolverine is necessarily a greater feat than Martin's:
Quote from: James Gryphon on October 28, 2011, 08:36:29 PM
...we know that cats, of course, have amazingly quick reflexes when they're preying on things, so with that, and the "sidestep" quote I provided in the Matthias topic, I think it's safe to say that Tsarmina is as quick as Martin is -- which, considering her greater size, is definitely a point in her favor. Gulo obviously has a lot more physical resilience, but cats are possibly the most dangerous predators on Earth when it comes to killing small mammals, so the difference between her and Gulo, when it comes to killing smaller creatures, might be a little overrated. Martin's sword is capable of slicing either of them up equally well, so I suspect Gulo's toughness might not be as much of an advantage as Tsarmina's speed. I think his greater strength is almost a moot point, since both the wolverine and the wildcat are going to be much stronger than either the mouse or the squirrel. Comparing a wildcat and a wolverine over their ability to overpower prey mammals is just comparing "overkill" and "even more overkill."
With that in mind, although I agree a wildcat wouldn't fare well in a fight with a wolverine, Martin's sword negates the wolverine's physical toughness, so the wildcat might still be more lethal in a fight against a smaller mammal, because it's as agile as they are and the wolverine isn't.
At any rate, it's worth noting that Tam "got lucky". He didn't win on account of his great skill, strength or determination, he won because he had a certain spirit tell him to sharpen his shield. Martin in his fight didn't even have a shield, much less the advantage of his own ghostly spirit giving him advice.
My choice goes to Tagg. He is bigger than Martin and obviously very well-trained, just like the mouse, but I think will gives him an edge is his overall balance of skills. Martin is definitely a good fighter, but Taggerung I believe was trained in more areas than just fighting, like balance and quick reactions.
What is the argument here?
From how I read it the argument was over whether Martin's a good fighter or not.
The balance/versatility of skills arguments look pro-Tagg, I'm not denying that. I think Martin would do better in a fight to the death and/or on level ground than he would in this specific circumstance.
Aye. Though it would be pretty close I think.
@James Gryphon No, I'm serious, on page 365 of MTW, Badrang actually stops fighting and begs to be spared--and only
then is he actually killed.
In the show, they changed that because it probably made Martin seem to be a little like a jerk. :P
You sort of implied that there wasn't a fight at all, though, which isn't the case.
I never said that.
But I did imply that Badrang was weakened prior to the fight, both physically and mentally, which the book does touch on.
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 13, 2017, 06:28:34 PM
@Ashleg: Unfortunately I don't have a copy of Martin the Warrior handy to debate this point, but the Redwall wiki at least suggests that it was not as simple as "Badrang drops and cowers on the ground and Martin kills him". Someone can look the worse for wear, even much worse for wear, and still be in fighting form, which judging by the battle (with Badrang being 'everywhere at once', issuing orders), he was.
That said, when you suggest that Martin only beat Badrang because he was already injured, you're implicitly stating that Martin isn't even in Felldoh's league, since he beat Badrang easily. I'm not sure the book backs that up. Felldoh's great but I'd consider him a peer to Martin, like Ranguvar to Luke. I suspect Badrang would have lost to Martin at the beginning, before their respective adventures, given Martin's demonstrated fighting spirit and endurance, and Badrang being cowed by the exhibition of those traits.
We don't know a lot about Tsarmina's upbringing. But the woodlanders stated that it was Lord Greeneyes and his daughter that dealt with woodlander rebellions. I agree that from what we see in Mossflower it's not likely that she has much experience leading and maintaining an army (she generally just tells them to do what her father already taught them), but that doesn't mean she doesn't know how to fight herself. She had some training, given her ability to shoot a bow, and I suspect as the child of a great warlord, like Ungatt himself was ("son of King Mortspear"), she had skills beyond that.
As far as the wolverine thing goes, as I stated in an argument about this in the past, I'm not sure that Tam killing a wolverine is necessarily a greater feat than Martin's: Quote from: James Gryphon on October 28, 2011, 08:36:29 PM
...we know that cats, of course, have amazingly quick reflexes when they're preying on things, so with that, and the "sidestep" quote I provided in the Matthias topic, I think it's safe to say that Tsarmina is as quick as Martin is -- which, considering her greater size, is definitely a point in her favor. Gulo obviously has a lot more physical resilience, but cats are possibly the most dangerous predators on Earth when it comes to killing small mammals, so the difference between her and Gulo, when it comes to killing smaller creatures, might be a little overrated. Martin's sword is capable of slicing either of them up equally well, so I suspect Gulo's toughness might not be as much of an advantage as Tsarmina's speed. I think his greater strength is almost a moot point, since both the wolverine and the wildcat are going to be much stronger than either the mouse or the squirrel. Comparing a wildcat and a wolverine over their ability to overpower prey mammals is just comparing "overkill" and "even more overkill."
With that in mind, although I agree a wildcat wouldn't fare well in a fight with a wolverine, Martin's sword negates the wolverine's physical toughness, so the wildcat might still be more lethal in a fight against a smaller mammal, because it's as agile as they are and the wolverine isn't.
At any rate, it's worth noting that Tam "got lucky". He didn't win on account of his great skill, strength or determination, he won because he had a certain spirit tell him to sharpen his shield. Martin in his fight didn't even have a shield, much less the advantage of his own ghostly spirit giving him advice.
I wouldn't necessarily say that Tsarmina is an equally impressive opponent as Gulo or that Martin's sword would negate Gulo's toughness. If you look at the Martin and Tsarmina fight they both inflicted extensive damage against one another- the book states that prior to being driven into the lake Tsarmina's hide was open in more than a dozen places- those are numerous direct hits/slices/stabs from Martin's sword. Martin during the course of the fight was also severely injured in multiple places as it took him close to a month to recover. With the Gulo and Tam fight it seems both opponents were better at avoiding direct hits. Tam managed to dodge one of Gulo's kicks- which the book states would have gutted him. And Gulo only suffered a cut off claw, some fur being shaved off, and a pierced foot. These injuries all happened at the beginning of the fight while Gulo was posturing or trying to intimidate Tam. Another thing to note is that a glancing blow from Gulo's claws ripped open Tam's leg and might have even broken it to as it was in a splint after the fight. One important variable here is the amount of damage Gulo and Tsarmina can inflict. Tsarmina managed to get multiple direct hits on Martin even after she tore off his armour and he still lived to fight, while Tam was nearly crippled by a glancing blow from Gulo. A direct hit from Gulo would probably have been fatal for either Martin or Tam. Tam unlike Martin did not suffer a direct blow from his opponent. Another thing in Tam's favor is that he is a much more composed fighter than Martin. He managed to keep his emotions i.e. anger in check during the fight while Martin charged at Tsarmina blindly at the beginning which is what had allowed her to sidestep him and tear into his back. Also in terms of their opponents Gulo was mentally a far better fighter than Tsarmina- he remained basically "level-headed" throughout the fight and even asked for the claymore to use as assistance. He more or less remained "calm". Also wildcats panic when being bested in combat or being in a life threatening situation and thus stopped thinking clearly- i.e. how Tsarmina died because she started imagining Martin was a huge warrior and started backing into the lake. While the only wolverine to be in a life threatening or mortally wounded in the book- Askor remained fairly level headed and was thinking clearly while being pinned under the tree with a broken back. Panic didn't overtake him or make him hysterical which in a fight could be advantageous. So I would say wolverines have several advantages over wildcats in terms of being more formidable opponents and its not just their greater physical toughness.
Very interesting post, Grond! Thanks for sharing.
So after some discussion, the victory goes to the Taggerung himself!
New matchup!
Mariel the Warrior from Mariel of Redwall!
Vs.
Triss the Warrior from Triss
It's a one-on-one battle of the [so-called] Sues! It takes place on flat ground with weapons of choice for both fighters
Who would win?!
I hate Triss, but I'll vote for her because Mariel's WOC is probably a rope.
I haven't read Mariel or Triss in a long time, but I feel like I don't want to underestimate Mariel and her gull-wacker. I feel like she showed herself to be pretty dangerous with it, even against enemies with swords and stuff.
Which doesn't necessarily make a whole lot of sense. While the argument for a mace and chain may b made, the rope is. . . Well, rope, and not metal. It can and will be cut eventually.
Even if she has some reach, a competent fighter would do their best to fend off the weapon, and if theirs is a sword, the edge will cut into the rope.
And yes, Mariel may be able to wrap the rope around a weapon and take it from her opponent's grasp. That's a good strategy. However, this will also risk damage to her rope, as the edge of a sword will once again cut into it, possibly even more effectively.
With their normally used weapons, unless Mariel can effectively knock Triss out, I think the fight goes to the squirrel.
However, Mariel has used weapons other than the rope. In The Bellmaker, she used an axe. If she has access to a weapon with good reach like a spear or halberd, she may have a better chance.
I still think I'm going to go with Mariel on this one (personally, not as the verdict)!
You'd have to have a pretty sharp sword to cut through a stiff rope like the one I imagine Mariel having. Besides, the knot at the end is like a club. There are some angles that she can swing her rope that I imagine would be very difficult to block with a sword without getting tangled.
Then again, it's worth noting that once everything is tangled together, either one could pull their weapon and disarm the opponent at the same time!
Triss uses Martin's sword, so the sharpness of the blade shouldn't be an issue.
That said ... it's my belief that no other major protagonist in the entire series has more pure talent than Mariel. There are better all-around Sues but when it comes to fighting nobody else is close. The very first time she ever picked up a sword (or possibly any weapon) in her life she beat the King of all Sea-Rats, himself a famous swordfighter. She then goes through two books beating up everyone she meets with a rope while the guy with Martin's sword stands on the sidelines with nothing much to do. Characters who got magic sword skills still had to have a sword to benefit; Mariel is apparently great without one.
A good point^
What if Triss was not using Martin's sword, though? Say a "standard" one from the forge of Salamandastron instead?
If Triss was not using Martin's sword, in all fairness Mariel should use a rope that is worse than her gullwhacker.
As far as I know her rope is just a rope; there's nothing special about it. She can get another one anywhere, and did (the original one was used to hang the Joseph Bell).
If it can hang a bell, it must be uber-strong--like Martin's sword.
What I'm saying is that should Triss use a normal sword, Mariel should use a normal rope. Aka a non-bell-hanging rope.
Firstly, the bell article said that it was used as a tolling rope (so it didn't necessarily hang the whole bell; I was off on that point).
Secondly, though, there's nothing that suggests that the rope was in any way out of the ordinary. It was a searat rope, and they're not known for their great craftsmanship as a general rule; furthermore, they threw it away. That she made another weapon just like it (which she did) and went on to perform greater combat feats suggests that it isn't that that particular rope was exceptional. I was always under the impression that she just made her gullwhackers from any rope that happened to be handy (a very non-materialistic ability, well suited to adventurers).
True, a hunk of rope will always be a lot cheaper and easier to acquire than a sword!
I am tempted to test a Gullwacker.
So she's more of a Sue than I thought.
Yeah it would be pretty difficult to cut through a rope, especially one that was loose and flailing around. They're made to be resilient. I think you'd need to pull it taught and trap it against something to even have a hope of cutting through it.
For what it's worth, Matthias did cut through Cluny's tail (a similar weapon), but it wasn't wrapped in knots the way Mariel's ropes are (according to the wiki).
It does have bones through it.
Quote from: James Gryphon on August 21, 2017, 10:17:09 PM
For what it's worth, Matthias did cut through Cluny's tail (a similar weapon), but it wasn't wrapped in knots the way Mariel's ropes are (according to the wiki).
If I recall correctly, he only cut off the tip, which is pretty soft and fleshy.
So let's move forward with the assumption that Mariel's rope won't be sliced in half just like that. Call it the rope of Martin the Warrior :D
Additionally, Triss' (I assume a sword?) won't snap and break, either.
Hmm.
In combat talent, I think it's unquestionably Mariel at any point in time, and in skills, by the Bellmaker, I think she definitely takes Triss, even with Martin's Sword. Mariel took on hordes of armed vermin with a rope and came out ahead. There was another beast armed with Martin's Sword who used to hang out with her and he was relegated to sidekick while she did all of the heavy fighting. Beating Princess Pinkeyes isn't really in that same tier.
Good points.
I guess I just don't want to yield the win to Mariel and her silly weapon. XD
New round?
My vote goes to Mariel she is definitely the more skilled combatant. By the way her gullwacker is encrusted with sea salt which serves to harden the rope and to further hurt any open wounds.
Delectable.
With that last vote, it looks like the victory here is Mariel's!
New matchup!@Ashleg do you want to suggest a fight?
Hmm...
Ashleg vs Groddil! Both are crippled advisors.
SO BE IT!
New Round!
Ashleg vs. Groddil!
Who would win?!
Hmm.
Well, Ashleg was a cripple, and Groddil was a deformed dwarf.
Neither were very brave and both abandoned their respective leaders.
I think Ashleg would win if they fought, because I think Groddil was described as being very weak.
Was Groddil ever described as using a weapon or ever fighting?
Ashleg led troops. You'd reasonably expect him to be competent in a fight even if relatively handicapped. We see him using more than one weapon, as well, suggesting proficiency. I wonder if his condition was congenital, or if he was a fighting and leadership-based beast beforehand. In any case, Ashleg has a better ethic here, in that I think he'd be bolder and less scared going into a combat situation. That'd be another leg up for him as it were
I see what you did there.
Groddil's role was purely as a seer to Ungatt Trunn, nothing else.
I Ashleg was maimed, not born that way.
Quote from: Ashleg on November 18, 2017, 12:42:33 AM
I Ashleg was maimed, not born that way.
Which along with previous points would suggest he'd had a life of fighting before hand, now of only he's worn armour.
As a side note, groddil was a rat correct?
Groddil was a fox.
He was a fox, maimed, disfigured, and stunted.
Looking back, Ashleg 9.75 out of 10 times.
Yeah, after scanning through the books in question, I think 9 times out of ten Ashleg will win.
The results are in and... Ashleg wins by a lot!
New Round!
Rakkety Tam MacBurl (from Rakkety Tam) vs. Matthias the Warrior (from Mattimeo)
Both have drawn arms on a level playing field.
Who. Would. Win?!
Matthias because of personal bias.
Ones a warrior who has spent the majority of their life fighting, while the other has lived a cushioned life in an abbey until recently and never had proper training in weapons. It's no contest.
Except Matthias was a great warrior as an adult and was able to use his brain to win his son back.
What's to say Rakkety Tam didn't use his brain? Sure, his victory over Gulo was almost pure luck, but he faced the wolverine nonetheless, and survived.
We really don't see much of Matthias's swordfighting as an adult, other than him trying and failing to defeat the wearat, and cutting down nameless spear rats.
I think Tam had more formal training, and his reflexes would be more fine-tuned. As far as we know fighting was his life for some time. He traded blows with an opponent much stronger than him.
Blade to blade, my vote goes to Tam, mostly because we have seen where his limits were as a swordsbeast.
Tam is armed to the teeth with a claymore, a skindoo, a dirk, and a buckler plus he's way more skilled he could have deafeated cluny or the wearrat in a fair fight unlike Matthias
*Sgian-dubh. ;)
We aren't completely sure of that. Cluny was crazed by fear of Matthias because of his dreams, thus affecting his fighting. Had he been thinking clearly, he may have defeated Matthias.
In the fight with the wearat, the spear rats attacked Matthias from behind, distracting him. Then, the mouse was hit in the head with the weights of the net as the wearat swung them over his should, further discombobulating him. In short, the fight was not even.
I don't want to discredit Matthias under the impression that Rakkety Tam had formal training. I recall him being from the north, which is hard and rugged, but that doesn't mean he had formal training. Also, consider that Rakkety Tam was serving a cushy fool for much of his life and rarely saw any action until the events involving Gulo took place. This isn't dissimilar to Matthias, who spent most of his life in Redwall during peacetime until Cluny showed up. But since then, he'd grown into a strong warrior and he shows this in Mossflower not just through his combat, but his brain more importantly.
All that being said, it's meant to credit Matthias, not discredit Rakkety Tam. I think it'd be a closer match than some of you think!
Saying that Tam spent much of his life serving Araltum seems false. I was under the impression that Araltum was a relatively recent thing, which accounts for his and Doogy's aggressive dissatisfaction with their position, as previously they had been real fighters.
I think Tam beats Matthias fairly easily.
Quote from: Captain Tammo on December 06, 2017, 03:59:37 AM
I don't want to discredit Matthias under the impression that Rakkety Tam had formal training. I recall him being from the north, which is hard and rugged, but that doesn't mean he had formal training. Also, consider that Rakkety Tam was serving a cushy fool for much of his life and rarely saw any action until the events involving Gulo took place. This isn't dissimilar to Matthias, who spent most of his life in Redwall during peacetime until Cluny showed up. But since then, he'd grown into a strong warrior and he shows this in Mossflower not just through his combat, but his brain more importantly.
All that being said, it's meant to credit Matthias, not discredit Rakkety Tam. I think it'd be a closer match than some of you think!
Well there's also the question of who trained both of them. We have absolutely no idea who trained Tam, as far as Mathias goes - I would say it is safe to assume that he was trained in sword fighting by Basil. That was the only beast at the Abbey at that time who had a military background. While Basil certainly knew how to fight with a sword and many other weapons as well, there is no indication that he was a master swordsman.
New round?
Let's do it!
NEW ROUND
How about....
Zwilt the Shade from The Sable Quean
vs.
Mokkan the Marlfox from Marlfox
Each armed with a weapon of choice, the battle is set in the woods in the night time. Brute force might get one the upper paw over the other, but stealth will be the true decider of who will win!
Zwilt, because Mokkan is sort of a coward.
Well give Mokkan a little more credit. Marlfoxes are notorious for their amazing ability to hide in plain site. Zwilt, to an extent as well, but can Mokkan really be matched there?
When talking about a fight, Mokkan wouldn't be able to fight completely hidden.
It would be quite hard, unless he decided to just use a bow and snipe Zwilt. Which I can argue, that if Mokkan can do it, Zwilt can too.
Zwilt's shown himself to be one of the few somewhat competent vermin fighters in Redwall, I'll give it to him, not to mention his weapon of choice is more suited for unarmoured fighting then Mokkan's.
Mokkan, one well-placed blow from the shadows does just as much as many in plain sight.
Zwilt takes the win this time!
New Round!
Lady Cregga Rose Eyes from The Long Patrol
vs.
Lord Urthstripe the Strong from Salamandastron
Who would win?
How did Urthstripe die?
Spoiler
He hurled himself off basically the top of Salamandastron, bringing Ferhago the Assassin down with him.
HARDCOOOORRE.
Hmm. This one is a bit tough. I will post on it later.
So he chose that? Ah. Kay. He wins. Because Cregga was blinded.
I don't recall Urthstripe actually doing much in Salamandastron, I'd give it to Cregga as of right now while I research Urthstripe.
Urthstripe will win unless this is before cregga was blinded.
Quote from: Ashleg on April 03, 2018, 10:27:03 PM
So he chose that? Ah. Kay. He wins. Because Cregga was blinded.
Quote from: Nadaz, voice of the host on April 11, 2018, 04:54:31 PM
Urthstripe will win unless this is before cregga was blinded.
The Long Patrol
This is before Cregga was blinded!
#1 Cluny the Scourge
#2 Badrang the Tyrant
#3 Ungatt Trunn
Quote from: Tungro on March 08, 2019, 06:46:49 PM
#1 Cluny the Scourge
#2 Badrang the Tyrant
#3 Ungatt Trunn
I would flip that. Cats
eat rats.
True, but Cluny was a much better leader and tactician that Ungatt
Quote from: Tungro on March 08, 2019, 10:50:38 PM
True, but Cluny was a much better leader and tactician that Ungatt
I disagree. Cluny's siege tactics only got his soldiers killed, and he never really managed to take a
church except for maybe five minutes at the end. Trunn took over a
fortress, and quite easily if I remember correctly.
While Cluny could not take Redwall I believe it was because of the major advantages one has when defending a fortification, also his troops where pretty incompetent. In my opinion Trunn only one because of superior forces and weight of numbers. In an open and equal fight I believe Cluny would triumph in the end.
I have to agree with that.. Cluny seems a bit of a more skilled fighter and thinker, whereas Trunn often dicided things on what his seers said, but then again, Cluny lost to a mouse and Trunn lost to a badger.. so .. I can see both sides (I know it wasn't any ordinary mouse, but still a mouse)
Quote from: Tungro on March 08, 2019, 10:57:02 PM
While Cluny could not take Redwall I believe it was because of the major advantages one has when defending a fortification, also his troops where pretty incompetent. In my opinion Trunn only one because of superior forces and weight of numbers. In an open and equal fight I believe Cluny would triumph in the end.
While Trunn definitely had more manpower, the mountain was still a far harder nut to crack than the abbey. You could hardly take it by throwing said manpower into a grinder; an understanding of strategy would be necessary. Not to mention the fact that you said yourself about the incompetence of Cluny's troops, suggesting that he's a pretty bad leader in terms of keeping discipline and actually training soldiers correctly.
If both had 100 soldiers, Cluny will lose his army because he can't train and discipline them properly. The best he could hope for is mutually assured destruction of the armies, which puts him on a 1v1 footing with Trunn, which he will also most likely lose. Consider that wildcats are the badger's equal; how many villains have managed to take down a badger
by themselves in a legitimate fight (killing old feeble ones, overwhelming them with numbers, shooting them from a distance, etc don't count). I actually don't know, as its been a while since I ever read any of the books, but I'd wager the number is quite slim.
I think Cluny has poison as an advantage, but even then, I don't think he's going to win in any way. The only outcomes I can see are Trunn crushing him easily, or a mutual army wipeout followed by a 1 on 1 fight where either Ungatt wins, or Ungatt wins but dies of poison..
True... but for some reason I can't bring myself to agree...
of all creatures I think the hare for Hight Rhulain was a pretty fierce warrior, too.. (yes, the insane one.. Cuthburt? was that his name?) he wouldn't win 1 v1 wildcat, I can guarantee it, but still he seemed like a true skilled (had some damaging mental problems) at killing things (ie the ship of vermin)
Quote from: Tungro on March 08, 2019, 11:12:38 PM
True... but for some reason I can't bring myself to agree...
Nostalgia. Cluny is insanely popular because he was the first villain. I will agree that he is definitely above average, as he actually managed to make it through the Abbey walls, something not every villain has managed, but he's still not the best. He falls into the problem most of the sub-par antagonists have, actually, of being effective strategists but poor leaders of "men."
If he didn't fall into the usual trap of delegating to idiots or being unnecessarily cruel for arbitrary purposes to his underlings, he would probably be one of the very best, though a fight between a smaller antagonist and a wildcat will always be dubious, as unless Cluny becomes such a master leader that he's able to steamroll over Trunn's army and surround him with like 50 rats, he still has to deal with the equivalent of a badger coming at him, which will hardly ever end well.
Quote from: Ouroboros on March 08, 2019, 11:06:50 PM
While Trunn definitely had more manpower, the mountain was still a far harder nut to crack than the abbey. You could hardly take it by throwing said manpower into a grinder; an understanding of strategy would be necessary. Not to mention the fact that you said yourself about the incompetence of Cluny's troops, suggesting that he's a pretty bad leader in terms of keeping discipline and actually training soldiers correctly.
If both had 100 soldiers, Cluny will lose his army because he can't train and discipline them properly. The best he could hope for is mutually assured destruction of the armies, which puts him on a 1v1 footing with Trunn, which he will also most likely lose. Consider that wildcats are the badger's equal; how many villains have managed to take down a badger by themselves in a legitimate fight (killing old feeble ones, overwhelming them with numbers, shooting them from a distance, etc don't count). I actually don't know, as its been a while since I ever read any of the books, but I'd wager the number is quite slim.
I think Cluny has poison as an advantage, but even then, I don't think he's going to win in any way. The only outcomes I can see are Trunn crushing him easily, or a mutual army wipeout followed by a 1 on 1 fight where either Ungatt wins, or Ungatt wins but dies of poison.
While you have a valid point, Salamandastron was only defended by about two score old hares and Redwall was defended by young, determined, and hardy fighters. So Cluny had a much harder time and still did a good job while Trunn got it easy
If I may, I'd also like to point that Salamandastron is a literal mountain/volcano with few entrances, while the Abbey is.... Not. Four gates, plus the walls don't go up to the sky. I'd rather be in Salamandastron with 40 older hares and Badger Lord than the Abbey with more young beasts who aren't trained.
good point, there..
Hmm.....
...Might take a little more to change my mind...
Quote from: Tungro on March 08, 2019, 11:27:58 PM
While you have a valid point, Salamandastron was only defended by about two score old hares and Redwall was defended by young, determined, and hardy fighters. So Cluny had a much harder time and still did a good job while Trunn got it easy
Corn makes a good point. The Long Patrol, weak as it was, was still trained to resist assaults. I would also argue that while the defenders of Redwall were young and determined, I would not call them hardy fighters.
Very rarely, if at all have the inhabitants of the abbey ever had a pitched battle. They have three strategies to stay alive: 1) Fling things over the walls periodically and hope their attackers will be destroyed by infighting and stupid plans, 2) send out the invincible pre-teen heroes to go decapitate the attackers' leadership, or 3) hope for divine intervention and/or blind luck.
Realistically, taking the Abbey would not be very difficult compared to the mountain, yet the mountain has been taken several times and the Abbey has never fallen properly because the plot demands it.
For example, here's my ideal ways of taking both:
The Mountain, the more difficult target, can really only be taken through two ways: a surrender after a prolonged siege that starves the defenders (difficult and time-consuming, they could have years of food in there), or send somebody in through one of the few windows to go and open a gate, which relies on them not getting seen.
The Abbey is easier. There are more options, the inhabitants have no real weapons aside from one sword, maybe a few bows, and whatever makeshift weapons they can make. It's been tried before to burn down the gates, to which the inhabitants pour something over the walls, and the plan is never done again. Why is beyond me, because if you just have archers in the trees to shoot anyone on the walls, you stop them doing that. If you don't have archers, burn every gate at once so that they can't respond to all of the threats in time. If you can't make fire, use an axe or a battering ram. If they try and stop you from the walltops, shoot them.
The Abbey is quite open, and it has no proper fighting force at any time. If you can get an army inside the walls, they won't fight to the end like in, say, the mountain, because few if any will have ever been in a fight. Most of its population are infirm or infants. Cluny, and most of the other villains, really have it easy. But they give up on a plan the second it gets foiled once, even if it would succeed with a few tweaks. Trunn had an easier time than most taking the mountain, as it was less defended than usual, but the fact still remains that it has better defenses than the Abbey, and even with the hares being old, they'd still be trained to fight, unlike the old animals inside the church, or the babies. If you get inside the Abbey, you kill their resident badger and a few otters, and they surrender or die (unless a magical ten year old shows up and kills you).
total agreement.
Hmm... Valid point
Quote from: Ouroboros on March 08, 2019, 11:41:36 PM
Corn makes a good point. The Long Patrol, weak as it was, was still trained to resist assaults. I would also argue that while the defenders of Redwall were young and determined, I would not call them hardy fighters.
Very rarely, if at all have the inhabitants of the abbey ever had a pitched battle. They have three strategies to stay alive: 1) Fling things over the walls periodically and hope their attackers will be destroyed by infighting and stupid plans, 2) send out the invincible pre-teen heroes to go decapitate the attackers' leadership, or 3) hope for divine intervention and/or blind luck.
Realistically, taking the Abbey would not be very difficult compared to the mountain, yet the mountain has been taken several times and the Abbey has never fallen properly because the plot demands it.
For example, here's my ideal ways of taking both:
The Mountain, the more difficult target, can really only be taken through two ways: a surrender after a prolonged siege that starves the defenders (difficult and time-consuming, they could have years of food in there), or send somebody in through one of the few windows to go and open a gate, which relies on them not getting seen.
The Abbey is easier. There are more options, the inhabitants have no real weapons aside from one sword, maybe a few bows, and whatever makeshift weapons they can make. It's been tried before to burn down the gates, to which the inhabitants pour something over the walls, and the plan is never done again. Why is beyond me, because if you just have archers in the trees to shoot anyone on the walls, you stop them doing that. If you don't have archers, burn every gate at once so that they can't respond to all of the threats in time. If you can't make fire, use an axe or a battering ram. If they try and stop you from the walltops, shoot them.
The Abbey is quite open, and it has no proper fighting force at any time. If you can get an army inside the walls, they won't fight to the end like in, say, the mountain, because few if any will have ever been in a fight. Most of its population are infirm or infants. Cluny, and most of the other villains, really have it easy. But they give up on a plan the second it gets foiled once, even if it would succeed with a few tweaks. Trunn had an easier time than most taking the mountain, as it was less defended than usual, but the fact still remains that it has better defenses than the Abbey, and even with the hares being old, they'd still be trained to fight, unlike the old animals inside the church, or the babies. If you get inside the Abbey, you kill their resident badger and a few otters, and they surrender or die (unless a magical ten year old shows up and kills you).
The mountain is not a harder target, Its size makes it an easier target, the abbey's smaller size helps it. To defend the mountain you need a corresponding large army or the enemiy force is just going to storm one of the numerous windows or one of the entrances.
You do point out that the abbey has no standing military force, which doesn't mean much since many armies historically weren't standing ones, and while this is true and puts them at a disadvantage against proper armies, only one of those exist in the form of the Long Patrol. Both Cluny and Trunn--not trunk you spellchecker--lack professional fighting forces. Trunn took the mountain because he massively outnumbered e defenders and they were all old and incapable of fighting properly anymore. Cluny did not massively outnumber his foes, he was dealing with roughly comparable odds, the deck was stacked against him and despite that he very nearly won.
Quote from: Steelinghades on March 09, 2019, 04:20:57 PM
The mountain is not a harder target, Its size makes it an easier target, the abbey's smaller size helps it. False. As previously stated, the Abbey is open. It has many, many different entrances, all of which are guarded by no more than a wooden gate, and if you make it over the walls, those are irrelevant.. The mountain, as far as I recall, has one entrance plus a few windows, the only ones I actually remember hearing about being in the badger's room, and the caves on the beach. To defend the mountain you need a corresponding large army or the enemy force is just going to storm one of the numerous windows or one of the entrances.
You do point out that the abbey has no standing military force, which doesn't mean much since many armies historically weren't standing ones, and while this is true and puts them at a disadvantage against proper armies, only one of those exist in the form of the Long Patrol. While this is true, my point wasn't that they don't have a standing army, it's that they're not fighters. They live in a church, if there's no otters or shrews visiting when they get attacked, they have no able fighters and almost no weapons (outside the sword, pots of hot water, and rocks). It should not be difficult whatsoever to take a target that can't defend itself, but because of plot armour and the stupidy of most villains, it never really happens. Both Cluny and Trunn--not trunk you spellchecker--lack professional fighting forces. I would argue that Trunn's force is more professional than Cluny's. There's more focus on loyalty and discipline, and more competent commanders. Trunn's soldiers don't keep trying to backstab each other like Cluny's do. Trunn took the mountain because he massively outnumbered the defenders and they were all old and incapable of fighting properly anymore. Cluny did not massively outnumber his foes, he was dealing with roughly comparable odds, the deck was stacked against him and despite that he very nearly won. The deck was certainly not stacked against him. Regardless of Trunn's advantages over the mountain, numbers weren't the only thing he had. His army is not just an upsized version of Cluny's because it has some semblance of discipline. While Trunn had more manpower than Cluny did, they were both dealing with vastly inferior targets. The weaker version of the Long Patrol is still a much better fighting force than a church full of untrained children and geriatrics. Why? Because Cluny can render anything the defenders try to do obsolete by placing archers in an elevated position, such as up a tree, to shoot over the walls and prevent the Redwallers from fighting back since they have no weapons. Then they can't defend the gates, and Cluny wins. In contrast, the mountain doesn't have that sort of fatal defensive flaw.
Redwall has precisely
one advantage, and that's resistance to siege by way of growing their own food. But that would be irrelevant in a world with slightly competent villains, because you could take the Abbey in a day if you just exploited the fact that they aren't trained to fight and don't even have the weapons to defend themselves with.
Also in the book Trunn uses practically no guile to take Salamandastron, basically he just told his captains, "I want the Mountain by sunrise". Cluny used many good tactics and maneuvers that only failed because of blind chance (Wasp nest and oil, soup ect) and it was convenient to the plot.
Quote from: Tungro on March 10, 2019, 06:11:26 PM
Also in the book Trunn uses practically no guile to take Salamandastron, basically he just told his captains, "I want the Mountain by sunrise". Cluny used many good tactics and maneuvers that only failed because of blind chance (Wasp nest and oil, soup ect) and it was convenient to the plot.
He doesn't try them again though, that's the problem, and it makes him stupid. He gives up on a plan the second something goes wrong.
Yeah, but Cluny doing it once is smarter than Trunn not doing it at all. Not to mention the Redwallers made it very clear that they would be prepared for any tactics used twice
true that, true that.
Quote from: Ouroboros on March 09, 2019, 11:14:28 PM
Redwall has precisely one advantage, and that's resistance to siege by way of growing their own food. But that would be irrelevant in a world with slightly competent villains, because you could take the Abbey in a day if you just exploited the fact that they aren't trained to fight and don't even have the weapons to defend themselves with.
You seem to think the Abbey being open--which isn't a downside, it means war engines throwing projectiles over the walls have more chance to miss something--and having wooden doors is against it. I would love for you to show me a castle historically that used metal gates and doors. Portcullises and gates were wooden and despite this castles were practically impenetrable until the advent of cannons.
The redwallers don't live in a church, they live in an Abbey, there's a difference. Moreover it has been shown that while the redwallers don't have a lot of swords or so, the have a lot of quarterstaffs and they can easily make more. The quarterstaff is in fact a better weapon then swords for two simple facts, reach and striking power. Helmets and armour are rare in redwallers meaning a quarterstaff strike is just as lethal as a blade. Not only that but they've been shown to have a large quantity of skilled slingers among them.
I find your description of how Cluny could have won the abbey incredibly amusing, no he can't position archers in the trees--for one I don't recall him having many trained archers, his army was mostly pressganged--and for two there's these things on castle walls called merlons that prevent you from doing exactly that.
And more over, yes the mountain does have a fatal flaw--and I'm not talking about the numerous balconies its been mentioned to have--and that fatal flaw? The fact it's a mountain is its biggest greatest flaw, I can't even begin to go into how bad such an enormous fortress is before the age of gunpowder.
Some more minor points, neither Cluny nor Trunn have professional armies, not even in the slightest. Trunn has a slighter better rabble then Cluny and that only because I don't recall anyone trying to assassinate him.
And yes, the deck was stacked against Cluny, let's go through a checklist shall we:
- Cluny had a rabble of an army, a lot of which was pressganged.
- Cluny lacked high numerical superiority which is vital in sieges.
- And most importantly, Cluny had the guardian spirit of redwallers actively working against him.
Trunk by comparison had a slighter better army, had the required numerical superiority and--though he had bad dreams--he didn't have spirit actively working against him. Everything was handed to Trunn on a silver platter for his siege, there was no way he could have lost.
Aye! What he said!
I have to say that Salamondastron does have several gardens on it's slopes probably including some high enough for the defenders to tend to without exposing themselves to enemy fire, while although the gardens and orchards at Redwall are more extensive anyone tending to them puts themselves at risk of being hit by an archer in the trees around the wall or a random projectile being hurled over the wall.
Quote from: Nadaz, voice of the host on March 12, 2019, 01:22:50 AM
I have to say that Salamondastron does have several gardens on it's slopes
The problem is that it would not support a mountain of hares. And according to Brian, Sunfish was the very first lord to put gardens on the slope, and even when he did, they where torn up for defensive purposes.
Obviously, they eat all that food and store it for occasions like that.
I suppose one place they could have grown food was at the very top of the mountain.
You are right about Sunflash being the first Badgerlord to have gardens, however I have to disagree with you about supporting the hares. At the time of Lord Brocktree there were only forty or so hares do it is possible for the gardens to provide enough food.
Quote from: Nadaz, voice of the host on March 12, 2019, 04:10:32 AM
You are right about Sunflash being the first Badgerlord to have gardens, however I have to disagree with you about supporting the hares. At the time of Lord Brocktree there were only forty or so hares do it is possible for the gardens to provide enough food.
Then at the time of Cregga and Russano there were a thousand hares. Though this does bring up the question of where Salamandastron gets its food from normally.
Quote from: Nadaz, voice of the host on March 12, 2019, 01:22:50 AM
I have to say that Salamondastron does have several gardens on it's slopes probably including some high enough for the defenders to tend to without exposing themselves to enemy fire, while although the gardens and orchards at Redwall are more extensive anyone tending to them puts themselves at risk of being hit by an archer in the trees around the wall or a random projectile being hurled over the wall.
For an enemy archer to fire into the Abbey, they'd have to be in either a truly monolithic tree or close enough to the wall that a dozen slingers or archers from the Abbey can deal with them.
Quote from: Nadaz, voice of the host on March 12, 2019, 04:10:32 AM
At the time of Lord Brocktree there were only forty or so hares do it is possible for the gardens to provide enough food.
My point is, that in the time of Brocktree there were no gardens, and it was stated that before Sunfish no lord ever considered having them, and as
@Steelinghades mentioned, small gardens hanging on mountain slopes would not support a number of hares big or small during a long siege. Not only would they not produce enough, the hares could not access them without largely exposing themselves to the enemy.
That's a very interesting point.
A whole year since anyone wrote on this. That is impressive.
And if anyone still wants to respond to this,
Ruggan Bor vs Ublaz Mad Eyes.
Quote from: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 09, 2011, 07:22:11 PM
In Taggerung, the main villain was not Ruggan Bor. It was Sawney Rath
With a sorta of ending point placed on Gruven, but he was too lame to draw attention to.
Actually, Sawney Rath was just as much the main villain as any other was.
There is not one way that Sawney was the main villain. NOT ONE WAY. I can handle people saying the others are the villains but if there is one major antagonist in that book who is not the main villain it is Sawney Rath. He was a major villain, but he was no way the main villain.
Quote from: clunylooney on April 02, 2020, 08:07:40 PM
Quote from: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 09, 2011, 07:22:11 PM
In Taggerung, the main villain was not Ruggan Bor. It was Sawney Rath
With a sorta of ending point placed on Gruven, but he was too lame to draw attention to.
Actually, Sawney Rath was just as much the main villain as any other was.
There is not one way that Sawney was the main villain. NOT ONE WAY. I can handle people saying the others are the villains but if there is one major antagonist in that book who is not the main villain it is Sawney Rath. He was a major villain, but he was no way the main villain.
I would disagree Vehemently, It is only because of Sawney Rath that the events of Taggerung happened in the first place, He is beyond a doubt the primary antagonist and his villainy is vital to the plotline of the book, just because he dies early doesn't change that. Gruven was not remotely main villain quality and nor was Ruggan Bor.