Who makes weapons??? I'm not talking about badgers an hares, but vermin. Where do their steel cutlasses and pikeheads come from??? Do they mine for ore??? If so, where are the mines???
I don't know, they probably steal it from woodlanders that make weapons.
Aye, like vhen Badrang ztole Martin'z zvord. Ah Dinnae really remember much aboot minez in Redwall, except for ze Quarry which iz vhere zey got ze ztonez tae build Redwall.
If so, where do the woodlanders get metal from??? Don't tell me all the weapons come from fallen stars, like Martins did.
Nay clue. Mayhapz zey 'ave zome unkenned mine zomevhere...
I don't really know. There was a sandstone Quarry so maybe ther was a mine BJ never mentioned before.
Ah remember zat a lot o' Redwall veoponz vere old vonez found zroughoot ze abbey. Ah remember zome Redwallerz vieldin' curtain rodz.
Hmm. As a blacksmith, I can say that weapons are not easy to make, and that's with modern techniques. There is no realistic way that there would be an entire horde of vermin who are well armed and have never forged their own weapons. I mean, seriously, it would take one blacksmith weeks to make a low-quality sword. Months for a really good one.
Who says that vermin couldn't make there own weapons? If they do it properly, it shouldn't take that long, though you would have to be pretty experienced to make a good sword or dagger in a somewhat short time.
Each horde probably had they're own forger for making weapons, just like they had a scout(s). It would be necessary, unless they just stole cartloads of weapons. It just might not have been mentioned. Or, each could have been taught how to make a weapon, but just steal one if theirs breaks because they were lazy.
Erm... No. There is no way in a random ragtag team of, say, Juska, or a massive horde, that every single creature is trained in weaponmaking. Again, I think that some of you are underestimating the effort that goes into making weapons. That is, unless you have a factory. But, to make weapons you need...
1: A mineshaft, to collect ores. You must have miners who know what they're doing, and can actually mine. Real life mining is infinitely more dangerous and difficult than in Minecraft.
2: A foundary, to smelt the ores into more pure iron, and alloy that metal into steel. In case you didn't know, iron is a pretty lame material. It rusts quickly, and bends a lot. Steel is much better, harder, more brittle, and slower to rust. In a foundary, you have to put a lot of ore into the top of a giant foundary furnace, where all of the metal melts out and flows into the bottom of the furnace, and then out of a side and into a pool. Smelting at its simplest. Still requires a large immobile furnace, and a lot of fuel and ore.
3: A forge, to shape the metal into weapons. Forming a weapon such as a sword, of normal size, can take perhaps 3-8 hours, rough guess, depending on quality. (Months and months, if you're a Samurai smith, but that's beside the point, as there are no Samurai in Redwall). Then, if you have modern tools, it takes you another 2-4 hours to sharpen, polish, and all that stuff. If you don't have modern power tools, it takes, like, a week. Do you have any idea how hard it is to take a tiny little file and sharpen and polish a big blade? I once made a serrated knife, and just sharpening and serrating about 5 inches of knife on one side took
for-flippin'-ever. Plus, you need like a billion files of many different types. And, if you skimp on the filing, you get a blunt sword, which isn't described in the books.
One of the main flaws in the seamlessness that is Redwall is the weapons, it's really unlikely that everyone (particularly vermin) are so well armed, seeing as about half or more of the vermin groups just wander with no set home, and the only forge ever mentioned is Salamandastron, and maybe somewhere on Sampetra.
Don't worry, I don't misunderstand you, I've made knifes before, they take ages to make. I've resently been sharpening my machete, and yep, it does take time.
Rusvul has made just about every point I could make. There's a lot of miners out there that are never mentioned in the stories for the sheer number of weapons in the books. Also remember the beasts don't live as long as humans so they'd need to be training apprentices very quickly. Its a continuity error but I'd say the target audience isn't going to question how the weapons were produced, save for the fact they somehow were. There were quarries mentioned, so we don't have to assume every knife or dagger was made of steel or some ore...they could be stone. ;)
Yeah, but it says that a lot of vermin have crude spears with metal or stone tips.
There might have been some place where a vermin who had his own little mine and was slightly skilled in making weapons sold them to vermin for a cheap price, hence the poor quality.
Quote from: Shadowed One on June 13, 2013, 02:50:49 PM
Yeah, but it says that a lot of vermin have crude spears with metal or stone tips.
Metal tips. Meaning you'd still have to have all of those things, except perhaps the alloying. And, one vermin mining and making weapons would not be enough. To make weapons at any reasonable rate, you'd need at least thirty peaceful vermin living in a colony that stats put. Not ever mentioned, and suggested against. And as for stone spears, you'd need to have suitable flint and a few good flintknappers. Unless you're suggesting the majority of vermin in Redwall are armed with unshaped rocks tied to stick? There is only a few mentions of stone weapons in Redwall. The gorge foxes, stonefleck's horde from Mattimeo, they are all that spring to mind.
Well maybe most of their weapons were made out of iron, hence the poor quality
In which case you'd still need a mine, a foundary, and a forge. Still three large, practically impossible to move structures, even if you're leaving out the alloying.
There's enough mountains for that. Just because the book doesn't mention the mines doesn't mean that they aren't there
Fair enough. It's just that a significantly large amount of work would have to go into making enough weapons to supply entire hordes. Do you think there might be a giant industrial city in the mountains somewhere that all vermin frequently visit? MAYBE THERE'S A SECRET STEAMPUNK CITY IN REDWALL!!!!!
I don't think that BJ was thinking about how hard it would be to make the weapons. Also, all you need for a spear is a stick and a pointy piece of rock.
For an extremely crude spear useless against proper weaponry. And you also need rope, but that's not a problem :). I don't mean to seem rude to anyone, I'm just not really bothering to cushion my words, for the sake of ease of explaining. *
Er, I don't wanna be rude, but have you tryed making a spear???? Its harder that it looks.
@rusvulthesaber: Would you mind explaining how you make weapons? I haven't seen a single satisfactory Sgian Dubh on Amazon, and I've been looking to have one for a while now. I think it would be awesome to make one
Quote from: The Shade on June 13, 2013, 08:34:41 PM
Er, I don't wanna be rude, but have you tryed making a spear???? Its harder that it looks.
I have, in fact, made a spear, a short, leaf-bladed, double-headed one at that. But I was responding to Shadowed One's comment,
QuoteAll you need for a spear is a stick and a pointy piece of rock.
And saying that for a rock-on-a-stick it's that simple, but for a spear you need flint and a flintknapper.
Quote from: Romsca on June 13, 2013, 09:18:38 PM
@rusvulthesaber: Would you mind explaining how you make weapons? I haven't seen a single satisfactory Sgian Dubh on Amazon, and I've been looking to have one for a while now. I think it would be awesome to make one
Sure! I will gladly yammer on about something I love to do. But, it won't help you make one. You have to have all the proper equipement and instruction, something that is hard to find. It actually took me like six years to find a blacksmithing instructor, from when I gained the interest.
1: Get a bit of old metal that's the right kind, (High carbon tool steel, usually. I made a pair of shortswords from a section of tierod from a car once, my blacksmithing instructor is awesome) and heat it up in a forge until it's red hot. Take it out, hammer it into a bladelike shape, leaving a long handle, and anneal it by making it cool very slowly. This will make the next step easier.
2: Get an angle grinder, and shape the blade more finely, taking out all snags and such. Polish the sides if you wish, this is not completely necessary. (I have a knife where one side is polished, and the other I did nothing to. Actually, if you don't polish it, it looks almost like stone.) You can polish it more finely with a belt sander.
3: sharpen it. Use the angle grinder and the belt sander to give it an edge.
4: Heat it to red-hot, then dip it in used motor oil, and swish it around until cooled. Dry the motor oil off.
5: Polish again. Apply oil to prevent it from rusting. Add handle, pommelstone, all that fun stuff.
If you want to use medeval methods, replace the gas-powered forge with a giant coal powered one, and replace every single power tool used with hours and hours of tedious, boring, difficult, filing. Ugh, I hate filing.
And Romsca, I could possibly make you a Sghain Dubh, but it would be expensive, take a while, I'd need to know where you live, it'd take a long time, and I wouldn't be able to even start for several months.
How do you have access to a forge?
By sheer luck. And an awesome friend. And a really weird bead store. Long story short, my friend found a blacksmithing class, I was like O:, he showed me where, and I started.
Oh, thats awsome, you forge blades from scratch. Whe I've made my knifes, I have started off with sheets of carbon steel. The way you do it is harder, its the proper way. I admire you for that.
Quote from: The Shade on June 14, 2013, 11:53:42 AM
Oh, thats awsome, you forge blades from scratch. Whe I've made my knifes, I have started off with sheets of carbon steel. The way you do it is harder, its the proper way. I admire you for that.
Thank you. I've made them both ways, forging is a lot of fun. Though, it's more fun when using something lighter than an 8-pound sledgehammer, which is most efficient.
I wish I could have a go at that..... :D :D :D
All we know is that the vermin got there weapons somewhere, though it really isn't made clear were in the Redwall series.
Yep.....
I think vermin got their weapons from searats who got them from far away lands and brought them back to sell and after that the searats keep selling weapons and vemin either buy, steal, them or they get them from dead creatures and use them as there own :P
It iz probably eazier for zem tae take zem, an' zen tend tae ze veoponz an' keep zem zharp zen tae make zem.
Yeah 8)
Possibly.....
:P
Anyvay...ah remember zomebody zayin' zomevhere zat vone o' ze reazonz for vhy Badrang took Martin'z Father'z zvord vaz zat zere verenae zat many good zvordz like zat ootzere.
Quote from: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on July 02, 2013, 05:50:01 PM
Anyvay...ah remember zomebody zayin' zomevhere zat vone o' ze reazonz for vhy Badrang took Martin'z Father'z zvord vaz zat zere verenae zat many good zvordz like zat ootzere.
well they were far up north so that maybe why ;D
I don't think BJ even cared about this logical mistake, XD
There was a big forge at Salamandastron. they made weapons all the time there. Over the course of time there should be mountains of weapons stored up there but there isn't. I suspect that most of the vermin weapons were stolen from good beasts.
Maybe there are mines and things maned by slaves somewhere. I'm surprised no one thought of this already. Vermin may be lazy but there not to lazy to get someone to do their dirty work for them.
Aye, zere vaz enough in ze Quarry tae make an abbey, an' ditto for Loamhedge, zae vhy can zere nae be zome ozer minez aboot ze land, eh?
Ditto?
Aaaah. Cheers.
Why, Thank you Ladies and Gentlemen! Hold the applause!
GET BACK ON TOPIC WID YER! :D
::)
;D
FACE! FAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Um. Yeah. Pardon me. Yes, the vermin weapons were probably stolen from dudes.
Quote from: rusvulthesaber on September 12, 2013, 04:29:52 PM
FACE! FAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Um. Yeah. Pardon me. Yes, the vermin weapons were probably stolen from dudes.
But then those dudes would have needed to make weapons.
The creatures at Salamndastron spend a lot of time forging weapons I bet a lot of the weapons come from there. also there are probably single black smiths that just live off in the mountains on there own and forge weapons and stuff. There is also a small forge at Redwall in the cellars.
Yes but where do they get the rock, metal, etc. to make the weapons?
Hmm, don't the vermin make a weapon on the island in th book Rogue Crew?
Maybe over seas from peaceful traders or in the mountains.
Quote from: Leatho Shellhound on September 14, 2013, 04:13:31 AM
Hmm, don't the vermin make a weapon on the island in th book Rogue Crew?
I think they do but I don't think it says where they got the stuff to make them.
There are plenty of possible places that the weapons could have been formed, its just the sources...
Quote from: The Shade on September 14, 2013, 08:06:09 PM
There are plenty of possible places that the weapons could have been formed, its just the sources...
That's what I'm saying!
I know! :D
Quote from: Faiyloe on September 14, 2013, 12:38:49 PM
Maybe over seas from peaceful traders or in the mountains.
Peaceful weapon traders selling things to murderers and vermin... suuuure...
No the pace full traders would sell the mettle to Salamandastron to make in to weapons.
i believe these weapons were not made as salamandaston, because some of the badge lords collect vermin made weapons. What most people forget about, is the northlands, from the studies i have done, in some of the books, there were vermin empires much larger then anything cluny or any vermin bands had.
Quote from: rusvulthesaber on June 13, 2013, 10:28:21 PM
Quote from: The Shade on June 13, 2013, 08:34:41 PM
Er, I don't wanna be rude, but have you tryed making a spear???? Its harder that it looks.
I have, in fact, made a spear, a short, leaf-bladed, double-headed one at that. But I was responding to Shadowed One's comment,
QuoteAll you need for a spear is a stick and a pointy piece of rock.
And saying that for a rock-on-a-stick it's that simple, but for a spear you need flint and a flintknapper.
Quote from: Romsca on June 13, 2013, 09:18:38 PM
@rusvulthesaber: Would you mind explaining how you make weapons? I haven't seen a single satisfactory Sgian Dubh on Amazon, and I've been looking to have one for a while now. I think it would be awesome to make one
Sure! I will gladly yammer on about something I love to do. But, it won't help you make one. You have to have all the proper equipement and instruction, something that is hard to find. It actually took me like six years to find a blacksmithing instructor, from when I gained the interest.
1: Get a bit of old metal that's the right kind, (High carbon tool steel, usually. I made a pair of shortswords from a section of tierod from a car once, my blacksmithing instructor is awesome) and heat it up in a forge until it's red hot. Take it out, hammer it into a bladelike shape, leaving a long handle, and anneal it by making it cool very slowly. This will make the next step easier.
2: Get an angle grinder, and shape the blade more finely, taking out all snags and such. Polish the sides if you wish, this is not completely necessary. (I have a knife where one side is polished, and the other I did nothing to. Actually, if you don't polish it, it looks almost like stone.) You can polish it more finely with a belt sander.
3: sharpen it. Use the angle grinder and the belt sander to give it an edge.
4: Heat it to red-hot, then dip it in used motor oil, and swish it around until cooled. Dry the motor oil off.
5: Polish again. Apply oil to prevent it from rusting. Add handle, pommelstone, all that fun stuff.
If you want to use medeval methods, replace the gas-powered forge with a giant coal powered one, and replace every single power tool used with hours and hours of tedious, boring, difficult, filing. Ugh, I hate filing.
And Romsca, I could possibly make you a Sghain Dubh, but it would be expensive, take a while, I'd need to know where you live, it'd take a long time, and I wouldn't be able to even start for several months.
HAAHAHA! It is so
good to meet a fellow bladesmith on these forums! Your advice is sound, Rusvul, but I would suggest an addendum. Romsca should also look into the Arctic Fire videos on youtube. A few of my mentors are on those videos and show some of the best smithing I've ever seen
that is awesome!! :o
Fellow bladesmiths and blacksmiths, I greet you with great praise in continuing the dying art.
I've made a knife completely the "old fashioned way," and to all beginners, as cool as you think it may be to do it that way, it isn't that glorious. Save yourself hours of labor and sweat and us an angle grinder. And a gas forge. And several other tools I did not use which would have made that job, so much easier.
I would definitely try metal-working if I had the right equipment! it sounds soooooo fun!
I've joined a blacksmith association near me; it depends on where you live. Beginner classes are very useful. Might want to take welding also. :)
Quote from: The Skarzs on January 15, 2014, 09:23:21 PM
I've joined a blacksmith association near me; it depends on where you live. Beginner classes are very useful. Might want to take welding also. :)
I have a neighbor who does welding and I've watched him do some welding before.
Good! Any work in metal is a great start, and welding gives good jobs. Just don't look straight at the welding; that's UV rays and can permanently ruin your eyes!
Quote from: The Skarzs on January 15, 2014, 10:55:52 PM
Good! Any work in metal is a great start, and welding gives good jobs. Just don't look straight at the welding; that's UV rays and can permanently ruin your eyes!
I know! My neighbor really hurt his eyes looking at it.
It's basically a poison. I've heard that putting pieces of potatoes over your eyes will help, but that's just what I've heard. :P Make sure to use a welding mask.
Any one here make armor?
Nope. ;D
It would be cool to be able to do so, though.
I'm making my own suit (can't get the computer to work right though, so won't be able to show pictures) both plate armor and chainmail.
Quote from: The Skarzs on January 16, 2014, 07:25:51 PM
I'm making my own suit (can't get the computer to work right though, so won't be able to show pictures) both plate armor and chainmail.
Awesome!
Quote from: The Skarzs on January 16, 2014, 07:25:51 PM
I'm making my own suit (can't get the computer to work right though, so won't be able to show pictures) both plate armor and chainmail.
Wow, I normal work with wood.
Make me a good handle for my knives!!
Naw, but I have trouble carving my handles. :P
Quote from: Leatho Shellhound on January 17, 2014, 01:55:28 AM
Quote from: The Skarzs on January 16, 2014, 07:25:51 PM
I'm making my own suit (can't get the computer to work right though, so won't be able to show pictures) both plate armor and chainmail.
Wow, I normal work with wood.
Same. I once made a hatchet out of wood that was sharp.
Quote from: The Skarzs on January 15, 2014, 06:26:04 PM
Fellow bladesmiths and blacksmiths, I greet you with great praise in continuing the dying art.
I've made a knife completely the "old fashioned way," and to all beginners, as cool as you think it may be to do it that way, it isn't that glorious. Save yourself hours of labor and sweat and us an angle grinder. And a gas forge. And several other tools I did not use which would have made that job, so much easier.
Haha, when I make knives I always use an angle grinder. ;D
Quote from: The Skarzs on January 16, 2014, 07:25:51 PM
I'm making my own suit (can't get the computer to work right though, so won't be able to show pictures) both plate armor and chainmail.
Wow! :)
About the armor... I made a pair of thigh plates. Not sure the name. I made a chestplate out of leather, I plan to make a brigandine tunic at some point.
Quote from: rusvulthesaber on January 18, 2014, 06:20:20 PM
About the armor... I made a pair of thigh plates. Not sure the name. I made a chestplate out of leather, I plan to make a brigandine tunic at some point.
I think the thigh plates are called greaves, but that might be the shin plates :P
...Yeah, greaves are for your lower legs. They might be both. Idk.
But! I made knives! They're so coool! About a foot long each, they've got bronze hand guards, and handles made of red oak. They're almost completely identical. I'm proud of them. They each came from about a six inch piece of tie rod.
Nice! What did you use for a tempering oven?
Quote from: The Skarzs on January 31, 2014, 04:37:32 AM
Nice! What did you use for a tempering oven?
Um, tempering oven? To temper the blade, we got it hot with a blowtorch and dipped it in oil. To forge it, we used a gas forge. These tools are owned by my blacksmith teacher, not me.
I see, never mind. About how long did it take to finish?
Um, at least ten months. But it was off and on, I only am able to do things every other week for two and a half hours.
Aye, I see. But the off and on was still a lot of time; going back on a previous post, the amount of weapons in the books would be unrealistic. :P
It took me only a couple of hours to make a low-quality knife out of mild steel and harden it (haven't been able to temper it) and I have yet to make a good handle. If the vermin had bars of metal, they might have been able to make a couple poor weapons in a day, but I really don't know.
I really, really want to do Blacksmithing now! Hopefully I can find some lessons for it somewhere.
Yeah, definitely look it up!
Wish I could make longer weapons. :-\ The place I go to doesn't allow you to make blades longer than about two thirds of a foot.
My friends and I to "blacksmithing" when we have camp fires, but don't have real tools (just a brick or regular hammer).
Just finished a sweet knife; It took me at least two months. The blade is 7 inches (or 17.8 cm) and the handle is 5 inches. I forged out a curved cross hilt and carved the handle from an old hickory hammer handle. I used broad-headed nails as rivets and ground them flush with the handle. I feel so good having finished it. :D So much relief. Also, I got so much of my own blood on the handle you could call it a relation. ;D
What if the weapons were a hereditary thing, like when one vermin ship captain gets his rudder pin taken out by otters, he uses a solid bronze spear as a replacement, taken from a soldier that said he got it from his father. Also, whenever one of the vermin in a band dies, their corpse is pillaged for weapons and clothing, so items could be reused many times.
That is true.
But I believe that the woodlanders have more than once buried the vermin weapons after battles, so new ones would have to be made if a substantial amount are so completely. . . lost. (It would make more sense for them to be reforged into tools, but, y'know.)
Don't know if someone mention this but trading is one way creatures can get weapons because we know we know different travelers go through Mossflower