Okay, go ahead and name two creatures or groups, like armies, that you think would cause the greatest battles ever to be fought by any in Mossflower. Also, tell why you chose whomever you did, as well as discussing the choices of others.
I would like to see a fight between the Deepcoiler and the Slothunog. Two underwater monsters, both of huge size fighting for supremacy of the waters. But, who was the larger, or have some advantage? (Or were they the same species, and not care to fight?)
Baliss vs. Asmodeus would be really interesting. It said that Asmodeus was larger, but he made a much bigger deal of Baliss's size.
Adder showdown, Baliss vs Asmodeus vs Zassalis vs Harsaccs vs Sesstra
Baliss will win ;)
;D
But it said only that he RIVALED the size of Asmodeus, but that he was still smaller.
The hamster from Triss and Gonff. They are both about the same size. Plus, they are both really awesome!
Cluny and his horde vs. Ungatt with the Blue Hordes
Cluny's horde was pitiful in size to the Blue Hordes; if they were the same size, maybe that would work.
Quote from: The Skarzs on September 30, 2014, 04:28:54 PM
Cluny's horde was pitiful in size to the Blue Hordes; if they were the same size, maybe that would work.
But it seemed as if Cluny's horde was more competent then the Blue hordes. Maybe with the Blue Hordes defending a castle, nullifying the numbers advantage.
I think the Blue Horde would be more even against Damug Warfang's army. That'd be one crazy battle!!!
What about Tsarmina and her armies vs. Cluny and his horde???
Tsarmina would lose. She was a far worse leader than Cluny ever could be.
The Rapscallions were the real deal as far as vermin hordes go. They accomplished multiple remarkable things in their prime: they had the resources and the ingenuity to allow them to choose between sailing or marching, they were able to give an attack on Salamandastron a good go (against Lady Cregga's Long Patrol, which was possibly the largest and most powerful Patrol ever), they actually escaped the battle without being totally wiped out, and they had a relatively stable transition of power. Few vermin organizations have been able to do more than one of these, and no other group I'm aware of has done them all.
The Blue Hordes had numbers, and little else. They did successfully take Salamandastron, but with more than 100-to-1 odds against ancient defenders, that should have been a given. Plus, the whole part where they got starved and whittled down by the same defenders acting as guerrillas is not that impressive.
In spite of the overwhelming numerical odds, I like the Rapscallions' chances against the Blue Hordes. If they play it smart, I think it's quite possible they could wipe the larger army off of the field.
The Thousand Eyes Army was a professional and organized force, at one point, but they were basically coasting on Lord Greeneyes' successes by Mossflower. Cluny's horde was apparently very experienced with siege warfare, and might be able to take the fight to Kotir more effectively than the woodlanders did (at least, until the catapult came along). However, I don't think that they would be able to do as well as the woodlanders once the army is outside the gates.
Ultimately, I think it comes down to generalship, and few can match Cluny in that regard. I think Verdauga would beat Cluny. I'm not sure that's true with Tsarmina. With no disrespect intended to her majesty, she didn't have nearly as much experience or fine control over the army as her father did, and those things are essential to winning this kind of fight. I think the Horde wins, but it'd be a huge fight well worth watching -- especially when Cluny's troops are faced with the problem of bringing down an angry wildcat. For whatever her military credentials, Tsarmina's still a killer, and I'm not sure if Cluny himself could take her, one on one -- provided there's no river handy for her to fall into.
This wouldn't necessarily take place in Mossflower country, but a naval battle between the Goreleech and the Greenshroud could be pretty cool.
Quote from: Delthion on September 30, 2014, 03:08:13 AM
But it said only that he RIVALED the size of Asmodeus, but that he was still smaller.
Baliss would still win. #gottalovebaliss.
Gulo vs a Badger Lord (take your pick)
That would be an interesting fight. Especially with Brocktree.
Quote from: Albrithr on October 02, 2014, 04:44:48 AM
This wouldn't necessarily take place in Mossflower country, but a naval battle between the Goreleech and the Greenshroud could be pretty cool.
ooooOOOOOoooohh a naval battle! Now that'd be something i'd want to see more of!!! The gorleech was huge, though and probably could win any naval fight it was in as long as the slaves didn't rebel while they were at it.
The Greenshroud was equipped with crossbows though.
What if Ungatt Trunn and Verdauga Greeneyes met in battle, both in their primes and without soldiers to back them?
They were brothers.
Well yes that's true but I want to know who would win in a battle!
In a physical fight Ungatt would probably win, because he had more strength. In a battle of wits Verdauga would definitely win, because he was more clever.
Well, although we have a clear picture of Ungatt Trunn's capabilities in his prime, we don't know as much about Verdauga's. All of his recorded feats are in leadership and strategic acumen; I don't think it ever says anything about his personal combat ability, and whether he was considered stronger or weaker than his brother one-on-one. It isn't like Rakkety Tam where the horde members plainly say that they think Gulo would win; we have no way of adequately comparing their accomplishments. We don't even know of anybody that Verdauga personally fought or killed (Barkstripe died during the opening battle, but there's no evidence I can see that Verdauga personally killed him).
Ultimately, though, Ungatt Trunn is overconfident. Verdauga would know this better than anyone else, and would be able to exploit it. I'm not saying that it would be easy, but I think Verdauga has a good chance of carrying away a win from such a fight.
The Rouge crew vs. Captain Rakes column, that would be an interesting fight.
Also the location would be on an open field with no rivers nearby. :P
With no advantages. . . I like it! They were already competitive against each other in the books; it would be interesting to see them fight in true battle.
Welcome to the forum, Sandpaw! If you post in the Introduction Topic in the Front Lawns, you will be more properly greeted by the other members. :)
Welcome to the forum, LT! :)
I'd have to give that fight to Captain Rake's column if it were on an open field. The field of battle is where the Long Patrol fights best!
Perhaps if it were some rounded hills, then it'd be much more interesting. That way, neither would really be fighting in an environment that they're always trained for. That's not to say that the Long Patrol or Rogue Crew can't fight in a hilled environment, though. What I'm saying is that when you think Rogue Crew (or at least when I think Rogue Crew), you kind of picture them as Vikings in a way. When you think Long Patrol, you think of formal British Redcoats or something. You see where I'm coming from here? An open field is where the British Redcoats would always fight, and beaches and rough terrain is where you associate Vikings fighting (not 100% of the time, but when thinking broadly). So if you mix the two terrains together, you prevent both of them from having an environmental advantage. In this case, I'm not so sure who'd win.
I hope all of that made sense XD
I don't know...
I think the long patrol should probably have a terrain advantage since they number only one score while the rouge crew number three score.
That's a bit of a numerical advantage.
60>20
Maybe if they had the same numbers but I have faith in the long patrol.
Lord Brocktree v. Gorath the Flame. Would be interesting, even though they are on the same side. :P
Matthias and Martin
Jess and Tam
Quote from: Captain Tammo on October 11, 2014, 05:28:31 AM
Quote from: Albrithr on October 02, 2014, 04:44:48 AM
This wouldn't necessarily take place in Mossflower country, but a naval battle between the Goreleech and the Greenshroud could be pretty cool.
ooooOOOOOoooohh a naval battle! Now that'd be something i'd want to see more of!!! The gorleech was huge, though and probably could win any naval fight it was in as long as the slaves didn't rebel while they were at it.
Another cool navel battle would be Greenshroud v. Freebooter or Freebooter v. Goreleech.
Yeah gotta say Riggu Felis's catguards vs. Tsarmina's horde, in a plain fight, no castle or defensive position. Really this is a goof battle, since Felis definitely had his catguards in line (Scorecat Fleng still returned after being abandoned) and he is a smart commander. Unfortunataly, since many of his techniques involved slaves, Tsarmina wouldn't care if a hostage hordebeast was captured and killed. But, as I recall, Tsarmina's troops started to desert when the siege was winning. Plus, Tsarmina was no great military commander, but Felis is previously proven to be a better one (but not as good as Verdauga). So kind of evenly matched. But I feel that felis would still win.
That would prove interesting for sure.
Little side debate with a post by James Gryphon, i think it was cregga, mandoral, melesme, russano (mentioned to be in the thousands) and brocktree that actually had larger armies that normal. I think that the lowest number is 32 for urthstripe and 140-150 for stonepaw
Very creative thread.
I agree that seeing Gulo fight a badger lord would be engaging. I think wolverines are larger and generally more powerful, but badgers have Bloodwrath on their side.
The snakes would also be cool! And how about General Ironbeak versus Korvus Skurr? I don't know much about them (such as the size of their hordes), but the battle appears interesting to me.
Hmm. Balis vs. Asmodeus? Just wondering...
Quote from: Sagetip, the hare on April 13, 2015, 03:06:51 PM
Hmm. Balis vs. Asmodeus? Just wondering...
I'm thinking that would end in a mutual kill (adder venom being the super instant death serum that it is in the Redwall world). It would probably be pretty cool to watch, though.
That would only work if the adders were affected by their own venom. (I should think that since it is in their bodies, they would be immune to it.) However, simply beating each other with bites and whatnot would probably end with a mutual kill, or at least leave one nearly dead, since Baliss was described as being the biggest adder since Asmodeus. If I'm not wrong in that Baliss was the biggest in the series, than he would have that edge whereas the other would be able to see.
Lord Brocktree vs Lord Rawnblade, both are mighty Badger lords whose chosen weapons are giant war swords. In a one on one duel it would be very close.
Also another interesting battle would be between Martin the Warrior from Legend of Luke and Buckler from the Sable Queen Both were said to be true masters of their swords and a battle between them would be very exciting to watch.
Quote from: The Skarzs on April 13, 2015, 04:47:15 PM
That would only work if the adders were affected by their own venom. (I should think that since it is in their bodies, they would be immune to it.)
Not necessarily. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_venom#Among_snakes) Now, I can't seem to find any information anywhere on whether or not European adders are immune to their own venom, but if they follow the precedent set by the poor cobra in that Wikipedia article, then they'd most likely have some resistance to their own venom, but not be completely immune. And since a fight between two very large, angry adders would probably result in a lot of bites on both sides, both snakes would most likely end up dead, even if it takes significantly longer for the venom to kill them than it would with the creatures they prey on.
In Redwall Cap'n Snow states that if he fought Asmodeus, "The snake and I would end up dead."
Quote from: Sagetip, the hare on April 13, 2015, 07:16:41 PM
In Redwall Cap'n Snow states that if he fought Asmodeus, "The snake and I would end up dead."
That was probably because they are both about equally powerful.
Though I think Snow would win if he's careful to stay away from the fangs.
I think I would like to see Martin VS Tam. They're both clearly great warriors. I may be missing something here, though.
Quote from: rrrrr on April 19, 2015, 06:50:32 PM
Though I think Snow would win if he's careful to stay away from the fangs.
True. Although it may be hard to do so if Asmodeus is quick.
Welcome to the forums, rrrrr! You have a cool name! :D If you introduce yourself in the Introduction Topic in the Front Lawns, you'll be greeted by a lot of friendly forum members.
Thanks Skyblade!
Another interesting battle would be Asmodeus vs. Lord Brocktree...
Lord Brocktree would win, I think Asmodeus's fangs would have been crushed when contacting the armour, and for the fact that Lord Brocktree would probably promptly behead the snake.
I know they are relatives and I also know they are both peaceloving cats but a heated tussle between Gingivere and Julian. Watching two well spoken nice guys fight would be funny and epic.
ALSO 2 badger lords would be amazing considering in every book about one it mentions that two full grown badger males will fight if stuck together for too long.
Quote from: Stonestripe on April 27, 2015, 04:18:57 AM
I know they are relatives and I also know they are both peaceloving cats but a heated tussle between Gingivere and Julian. Watching two well spoken nice guys fight would be funny and epic.
I imagine it wouldn't come to blows, more of a heated argument.
Quote from: Stonestripe on April 27, 2015, 04:18:57 AM
ALSO 2 badger lords would be amazing considering in every book about one it mentions that two full grown badger males will fight if stuck together for too long.
That would be something to see, but the point of this topic would be for more specific things like certain armies or characters.
Badrang and Cluny
honestly surprised no one said this one yet
I think they have about equal numbers in their hordes and both proved efficient generals...so
However, Cluny was described as being very large, so he may have outsized Badrang, and from the books Cluny appears to be much more the fighter than Badrang.
Much as I like his character, Badrang never appeared to have much combat experience. As a corsair, that may have been a different matter, but sea fighting strategies and land fighting strategies are completely different. Badrang was used to capturing slaves with little or no resistance. When catching escaped slaves he was cunning and it usually worked but catching slaves and fighting an army are different. He was smart and he could hold his own in a tactical battle, but he mos likely had assistance from his captains.
As for his one-on-one fighting skills, I'd say Cluny would win. Badrang is the kind of opponent that goes for brute strenght, which, believe me he had enough of. As exhibited when fighting Felldoh, he is weak against faster, smaller opponents. While Cluny isn't that fast or small he generally has much more prowess and uses his strength in a useful way. However, Cluny doesn't always fight his battles himself, and it's showed that he usually gets his way indirectly, because in Redwall it is said that he "Collapsed the mine," or "chased a dog into an opposing village." But, that could stand to show his better tactics in battle.
I'd Skor Axehound and Finnbarr Galedeep would have a great fight.
That would be interesting. I think they would be about equal in strength.
Skor Axehoudn is used to fighting skimpy vermin (exception of Razzid) while Finnbarr is a total loner and is hinted to have fought some pretty tough vermin.
But it's just a theory. A game theory.
From what we've seen, Finnbarr has also tanked more serious wounds than Skor, so resistance would go more toward Finnbarr. However, Skor uses an axe, which seems to be a more powerfully hitting weapon, so any hits Galedeep would take would be devastating. In addition to that, Finnbarr has only one eye, which is a major disadvantage in battle.
I was thinking if Skor got a good hit on one of Finnbarr's swords it might break.
Not necessarily. First off, if you hit a well-made sword on the side with an axe, the sword will bend, even if it is held stationary by some jig. Hit on the edge in the same circumstance, it may fracture, but will probably not break all the way through. That is with a wood-cutting axe swung at full power.
In a fight, full power strikes are both unnecessary and dangerous to the striker, since they take time to build up to, which allows smaller, equally harming strikes to be given. With a war axe, which is very thin compared to wood axes, you cannot get the full weight of a wood axe, so the power is lessened. In addition to that, they are made light on purpose because they require quick usage in battle, contrary to video games and fantastical ideas that war axes are massive, heavy things that are meant to be used by huge monsters of fighters because they're the only ones who can use them. In reality, they must be light in order to be used effectively.
Not only is a war axe incapable of the heavy hitting that a wood axe can deal, but the person with a sword is not holding it out to the side of them like it's in a vice; rather, they have their sword facing their opponent, which doesn't allow for a downward hit. All blows will be glanced off to the sides. Another reason why the sword wouldn't break is because a fighter's arm is not an inanimate object meant to hold something completely still; it will move. Tell someone to hold a stick out straight to the side of them and hit it with another stick. Know what will happen? Their arm will move downward with the force, and most of the downward energy went to the pivots in their arm, not allowing for any possibility of breaking the weapon.
Now let's focus on if Skor did try a foolish move like trying to break Finnbarr's sword.
Skor would know that in order to break the sword, a lot of force would have to go behind his blow. (Never mind the fact that a seasoned fighter would never try this.) Even if Galedeep were to hold one blade out straight, it would not be broken, and Skor would have his axe buried in the ground. Even if Finnbarr didn't have two swords, he would be able to recover from this attack MUCH faster than Skor, and the Rogue Crew leader would be down for the count.
Well one can certainly tell Skarzs knows what he's talking about,
On the flipside though Axehound was said to have a round shield, probably like a Viking's shield. Such a piece of equipment would be very effective against a curving sword, curved swords like claymores (I believe that's what Galedeep used) are ineffective in thrusts and used more for cutting and slicing then stabbing. Such blows take a small amount of time to wind up and with that time Axehound could easily bring his shield into play. With Galedeep unable to land a blow without going around, over or under the shield Axehound can bully forward and deal some serious damage with his war axe. Not only that but he can circle to Galedeep's weak side (His bad eye) and force Galedeep to face him up front instead of trying to get around the shield.
I see this fight ending in Axehound's favor.
Quote from: LT Sandpaw on August 18, 2015, 05:59:50 PM
Well one can certainly tell Skarzs knows what he's talking about,
*Bows.*
I know in the illustration of The Rogue Crew that is showed Skor I believe it was with a double-bitted axe. That would imply that it requires two paws to use. However, it has been quite a while since I've read the book, so I can't remember.
But yes, with a shield it would be more difficult.
Now this is interesting, because it's one of those fights that we would have to see in order to find an outcome; truly a fight of a century! ;)
Quote from: The Skarzs on August 18, 2015, 05:25:44 PM
Not necessarily. First off, if you hit a well-made sword on the side with an axe, the sword will bend, even if it is held stationary by some jig. Hit on the edge in the same circumstance, it may fracture, but will probably not break all the way through. That is with a wood-cutting axe swung at full power.
In a fight, full power strikes are both unnecessary and dangerous to the striker, since they take time to build up to, which allows smaller, equally harming strikes to be given. With a war axe, which is very thin compared to wood axes, you cannot get the full weight of a wood axe, so the power is lessened. In addition to that, they are made light on purpose because they require quick usage in battle, contrary to video games and fantastical ideas that war axes are massive, heavy things that are meant to be used by huge monsters of fighters because they're the only ones who can use them. In reality, they must be light in order to be used effectively.
Not only is a war axe incapable of the heavy hitting that a wood axe can deal, but the person with a sword is not holding it out to the side of them like it's in a vice; rather, they have their sword facing their opponent, which doesn't allow for a downward hit. All blows will be glanced off to the sides. Another reason why the sword wouldn't break is because a fighter's arm is not an inanimate object meant to hold something completely still; it will move. Tell someone to hold a stick out straight to the side of them and hit it with another stick. Know what will happen? Their arm will move downward with the force, and most of the downward energy went to the pivots in their arm, not allowing for any possibility of breaking the weapon.
Now let's focus on if Skor did try a foolish move like trying to break Finnbarr's sword.
Skor would know that in order to break the sword, a lot of force would have to go behind his blow. (Never mind the fact that a seasoned fighter would never try this.) Even if Galedeep were to hold one blade out straight, it would not be broken, and Skor would have his axe buried in the ground. Even if Finnbarr didn't have two swords, he would be able to recover from this attack MUCH faster than Skor, and the Rogue Crew leader would be down for the count.
Skor does have a huge axe "In one paw he carried a huge double-headed battleaxe, which any normal beast would have trouble lifting." and I think he might try to break Finnbarr's sword after they had been fighting for a while because the book implies he has low stamina.
Finnbarr clearly showed that he doesn't need a weapon to kill a beast, though. And why a person would try to break their enemy's weapon is foolish, when the point is to the past the weapon and into the body, not through it, which will also damage your own weapon.
I'm talking about when Skor is tired and knows Finnbarr will win he might do that in a final hope to beat Finnbarr.
Like i said before, Finnbarr has a bit of experience. It's also shown implied that he doesn't always relie on his swords. But it depends.
Quote from: LT Sandpaw on August 18, 2015, 05:59:50 PM
Well one can certainly tell Skarzs knows what he's talking about,
On the flipside though Axehound was said to have a round shield, probably like a Viking's shield. Such a piece of equipment would be very effective against a curving sword, curved swords like claymores (I believe that's what Galedeep used) are ineffective in thrusts and used more for cutting and slicing then stabbing. Such blows take a small amount of time to wind up and with that time Axehound could easily bring his shield into play. With Galedeep unable to land a blow without going around, over or under the shield Axehound can bully forward and deal some serious damage with his war axe. Not only that but he can circle to Galedeep's weak side (His bad eye) and force Galedeep to face him up front instead of trying to get around the shield.
I see this fight ending in Axehound's favor.
Claymore's aren't curved...
Cutlasses were the swords you were thinking, Sand. :P
Finnbarr did use curved swords, though. I'll check.
Quote from: Redwall WikiFinnbarr Galedeep was a large male sea otter and an excellent boatsbeast. His body was covered with many scars, he had only one ear, and one eye. The other socket was covered with an eyepatch. His weapons of choice were two basket hilt curved swords that he kept strapped to his back.
Yes. Claymores aren't curved. He was using cutlasses.
Ah my mistake. :-[
Well there is no difference in the explanation besides the fact that cutlasses are generally shorter swords. Which in all technicality makes Axehound even more likely to win.
I thought of them more saber like.
What about a battle between the two escaped slave armies The Fur n' Freedom Fighters VS The Terramont Resistance Against Gabool TRAG.
Both armies have roughly the same numbers and are in a beach setting giving neither really much advantage over the other.
TRAG has Dandian and Mariel along with their companions from Redwall except for Rawnblade because that would make them OP so he's not in this fight.
The Fur n' Freedom Fighters have Felldoh, and the Rosehip players. Martin and his armies would make them OP so he's not in this fight. Deja vu.
From the book I would assume that the TRAG fighters are slightly better armed and have steel weapons along with a selection of ranged weapons. They are lead by several powerful fighters and good leaders such as Joseph, Dandian and Mariel. They are very determined and capable though they had little combat training. They number a little under a hundred warriors and have the war cry "TRAG TRAG TRAG!" Which in my opinion is flippin pathetic
From the book I would assume that the Fur n' Freedom Fighters have very few quality weapons but they make up for that with their javelin throwers and slings. They too are very determined and have a little more training with their weapons. They are lead by the Rosehip players and Felldoh whom could kick all three of the other teams leaders tails single pawed but is admit ably a bad leader. The Rosehip players are slightly better in the leadership department but lack good combat skills. they have roughly eighty plus warriors and they have the battle cry FUR N' FREEEEEEDOOOOOM! Which is so much better!
After thinking about how this fight would go I decided I couldn't decide, both armies are well matched, I feel that TRAG "might." Have a slight advantage with better leaders superior weapons and numbers. All of which is countered by javelin throwers and Felldoh the one beast army. :P Anyway what about you guys? Thoughts?
I wouldn't have added Felldoh since he's dead bit I think TRAG would win.
Quote from: Hickory on December 02, 2014, 10:37:41 PM
Little side debate with a post by James Gryphon, i think it was cregga, mandoral, melesme, russano (mentioned to be in the thousands) and brocktree that actually had larger armies that normal. I think that the lowest number is 32 for urthstripe and 140-150 for stonepaw
Don't forget, Boar the fighter had about 10 under his command.
I liked the underwater battle between the water rat and the pike.
Rakkety Tam vs Gulo was also pretty good.