Where does the path go? Who built it? When was it created?
For those who don't remember Redwall's western wall is built along a dirt footpath that runs seemingly endlessly to both the north and south. Characters from the stories have followed it in both directions at length, but usually they divert into the woodlands before they actually make it anywhere of importance. Now, as we all know, footpaths don't just appear for convenience, ( ::) ) so logically we can deduce that the path leads somewhere.
The earliest version of the path we see, is when it runs past Kotir, and we know that Verduga Greeneyes came along and claimed the abandoned fort as his own, suggesting that the path was built for and/or by whoever held Kotir before the wildcat warlord took it.
We also know that the path was made in a hurry, due to the fact that no bridge was built over the River Moss, instead there is a ford to allow animals to cross. However, at certain points there are ditches dug to protect the path from presumably, winter run offs and heavy rain fall...
It reminds me, somewhat, of how the Romans built key forts and roads in Britain and Germania allowing speedy troop movement throughout their conquered lands!
So maybe there was a Large Imperial Faction in the Redwall world like the Romans that failed to conquer the island, due to the ferocity of the native tribal peoples, thus they were forced to abandon their forts, retreating back to the mainland. If this theory is correct, and a group of Redwallers followed the path for long enough they might just discover another Kotir-like building either in disarray or being held by some other warlord; or maybe I'm ust crazy. ;)
What do ya'll think? Who made it? Why did they make it, and when?
Maybe Verdauga built it using slave labor?
No, he found it in disrepair, he never made it.
I think 'twas humans who built the path
In a conversation on the Redwall facebook group, someone mentioned something from High Rhulian about Riggu Felis talking about cats being previously (A looooong time ago) ruled over by some other species that was wiped from the face of the Earth
That could've the human race, or something similar. So it is an easy possibility that they could've built the path.
It also seems that the path was built to last for a loooooooong time. It never seems to be in a terribly bad shape in the books despite the vast time period the series covers. It would've taken a bunch of woodland creatures a loooooooooong time to build such a path. Even that Abbey they built had some wear and tear, like when they had to replace the south wall. So I think it easily could've been some mysterious human-like species that built the path.
. . .
But to where?
Quote from: alexandre on March 03, 2017, 01:14:43 AM
I think 'twas humans who built the path
In a conversation on the Redwall facebook group, someone mentioned something from High Rhulian about Riggu Felis talking about cats being previously (A looooong time ago) ruled over by some other species that was wiped from the face of the Earth
That could've the human race, or something similar. So it is an easy possibility that they could've built the path.
It also seems that the path was built to last for a loooooooong time. It never seems to be in a terribly bad shape in the books despite the vast time period the series covers. It would've taken a bunch of woodland creatures a loooooooooong time to build such a path. Even that Abbey they built had some wear and tear, like when they had to replace the south wall. So I think it easily could've been some mysterious human-like species that built the path.
. . .
But to where?
Except the path is scaled to woodlanders. If it was a typical human dirt-road/footpath thing, it would be huge.
And the Abbey's south wall needed to be replaced because it was practically over the top of a sinkhole.
I feel like humans never existed--but if they did, they'd be the same size as the characters. If you look at some of the art in the books, there's woodlanders standing by trees and stuff.
They'd have to be relative to human size, or else the trees would be very small but that doesn't make sense.
There needs to be a fanfic where some characters go on a quest to find out where the path leads.
Well, we know it probably goes up near Noonvale because that is how the travelers came from their to Redwall to tell the story of Martin and Rose(MTW Prologue and Epilogue)
As for south, I always assumed that it lead to Castle Floret and Southsward, but I don't know/think it was mentioned in the books.
Lol, it's like the Route 66 of the Redwall universe ;D
Well, the Redwall universe started out as having traces of humans in it (Cluny the Portuguese rat, the horse and cart, etc...). Since Mossflower was written early on in the universe before all traces of humans disappeared, I think that Verdauga found a fortress that had formerly belonged to humans. The path a human construction as well. Perhaps the ford is still cross-able because a stone bridge built over it collapsed and creatures can jump from stone to stone? Then as the series went on, these landmarks stayed and their reason for existence disappeared into the background...
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on March 13, 2017, 05:15:16 AM
There needs to be a fanfic where some characters go on a quest to find out where the path leads.
I think that's an
awesome prompt! I gotta make a list of prompts for people one of these days...
I just hate the idea of humans being in Redwall, plus the size of the animals to the castle means it definitely wasn't built by humans. Or the castle would be huge.
I think considering the fact that the animals seem to be of different sizes and proportions than in real life, and the fact that there is never the slightest mention or indication of the existence of humans in all of the 22 books, I'd say that it's reasonable to conclude that the concept of humans in the world of Redwall is both ridiculous and easily dismissed.
*applauds*
I do like the Idea of a Redwall vision of the Roman empire who built miles of roads and had military fort all over the empire
Come to think of it, it would have been really cool to see a book set before Mossflower and Lord Brocktree showing us how it was before Verdauga, when Kotir was built and Brockhall wasn't so little known and sparsely inhabited.
It would, but I think the main reason he never went too far in the past was because the series is called Redwall, after all.
I don't care.
If I meet Brian Jacques in Dark Forest I'm telling him to write me a pre-Mossflower era book. ;D
Quote from: Ashleg on October 04, 2017, 05:02:01 PM
It would, but I think the main reason he never went too far in the past was because the series is called Redwall, after all.
Spin-off series? ::)
Why're you rolling your eyes at me?
What if I didn't think of that?
Sheesh.
An anthology, maybe?
Things That Happened on This Really Long Path: A Collection of Redwall Adventures?
Redwall: The Happenings
The Mossflower Chronicles: A Redwall Series
Quote from: Maudie on October 04, 2017, 05:39:11 AM
Come to think of it, it would have been really cool to see a book set before Mossflower and Lord Brocktree showing us how it was before Verdauga, when Kotir was built and Brockhall wasn't so little known and sparsely inhabited.
Are you volunteering?
...
Maybe.
Sit down and don't get up 'till that book is completed.
Hmm, what kind of book would you want to see about pre-Redwall and pre-Kotir era Mossflower? The building of Kotor? The building of Brockhall? Hmm... ;D
Maybe how Mossflower ended up under the control of the Wildcats?
That would be cool.
I think the building of Motor might be too far back. It seems like it was old even before Lord Brocktree's time.
Motor?
I think he means Kotir, Ash.
Motor isn't for another few centuries. ;D
Hah.
Oh for goodness' sake. Bloody phone.
By the Redwall map from the official product 'Redwall Map And Riddler' it seems to fade off and become not so clear-cut as the path and the terrain at the Open Land/Foothills of the Middle Northlands. I believe it doesn't mean to say "we're stopping mapping it here, but it goes on" and instead say "here it just kind of fades into the terrain and dissapears as a clear path." However this ending point is notably quite a ways before Noonvale, and didn't the Troupe make their way down by the path? This would discredit my theory. Someone should check the books mentioning the Northlands.
In the South it seems to fade into the trees, and it's implied it reaches Castle Floret. I believe this was confirmed in The Bellmaker?
Note that because the maps constantly contradict themselves, this map is infamously inaccurate itself, and focuses on plot point locations more than official lore, though it does serve as a good basis or general impression of the world at large.
Link: https://i.stack.imgur.com/y9N0B.jpg
A good point
@Blaggut. The maps tend to be different, all the time. For example, Gulo's ship comes from the sea west of Salamandastron, Damug's from the east-ish sea. There would be no place for things like the lake or the path if these two seas were in such close proximity.
Didn't Damug end up on the Northeast Coast (where Marshank lay) and quickly make his way down, while Gulo ended up in Araltum's grove much farther south due to a storm? That could still make up for the map measurement considering the North tapers to a thin stretch of land, unlike the rest of the known world like Mossflower. I don't think Brian could mess up that bad.
The Long Patrol shows South-East with Salamandastron seen:
(http://www.geocities.ws/redwallhq/maplongpatrol.jpg)
Rakkety Tam shows just as you said:
(http://nemaloknig.info/picimg/267/2671/26716/267163/_1.jpg)(http://nemaloknig.info/picimg/267/2671/26716/267163/_2.jpg)
OK, that map from The Long Patrol is clearly wrong. The illustrators took a LOT of liberties with the maps, and literally every other Redwall book shows Salamandastron guarding the Southwest sea. If that map were true, Southsward would be completely underwater:
(http://www.oocities.org/redwallhq/mapbellmaker.jpg)
And, then, here's the map from Salamandastron:
(http://www.oocities.org/redwallhq/mapsalamandastron.jpg)
Note the part that says, "To the Southwest Lands." Clearly no ocean magically sitting around there.
Yes, with the giant mountain range directly between Redwall and Salamandastron. :P I thought those were further south, or Redwall was further north. . .
We can note, however, that there is definitively an eastern sea; Damug lands on its southern shore (not as far as Southsward, though) and Raga Bol on its northern shore. Interestingly, It is never shone on any of the maps except the map from The Long Patrol, in which it is clearly portrayed inaccurately, and Loamhedge. Here is the northern part, from Loamhedge:
(http://nemaloknig.info/picimg/267/2671/26716/267164/_2.jpg)
From the second picture you posted Wylder, it seems that the error the illustrators made in the The Long Patrol was not only that Damug sailing in the Southeast Sea was misplaced, but also, they mistook the Big Lake for the East Sea, as it seems.
No, The Long Patrol states that Damug landed on the southeast coast, somewhere between Redwall and Salamandastron latitudinally. He probably would have had to march across a fair ways of land, but crossed some rivers which flowed out of Lake Marl (as I call it) either to the north or south of the lake proper.
We can also note that the map is inaccurate in that streams never run parallel to the coastline. That is just plain incompetence on the illustrator's part.
What I meant was that the illustrators used the image of the Marl Lake for The Long Patrol
Do things move around or disappear in each story it almost seems like Brian the Illustrator forgets what he draws in the other books or he doesn't care
could it be a badger warpath used in the great war between the badgers and the wildcats?
Quote from: Sanddunes on November 05, 2017, 09:04:42 PM
Do things move around or disappear in each story it almost seems like Brian the Illustrator forgets what he draws in the other books or he doesn't care
This a point that has been found to be true. But it would be the illustrator's fault, not Brian's. I think he had an idea what his world looked like.
^^I believe this is the case. Brian's geography seems mostly solid. Sure, there are some parts which are a bit inconsistent, but Redwall takes place over such a large area and time period that there's a lot of terrain flexibility. Overall, though, if Brian had actually drawn the maps himself I think the geography would make a lot more sense. As it is, the illustrators were all just that: illustrators. They took the minimum details and and used them to draw a pretty picture. Thus, scale and position varies wildly between maps, because they are less maps than symbolic representations of terrain. Unfortunately (or fortunately, actually) Brian was a writer and not a cartographer, so the actual details of his world remain locked away, only to be glimpsed at through his prose.
Also, whether or not we want to consider it, the maps are less important than the stories they pertain to.
Quote from: Krantor the Brutal on November 06, 2017, 12:00:43 AM
Quote from: Sanddunes on November 05, 2017, 09:04:42 PM
Do things move around or disappear in each story it almost seems like Brian the Illustrator forgets what he draws in the other books or he doesn't care
This a point that has been found to be true. But it would be the illustrator's fault, not Brian's. I think he had an idea what his world looked like.
I didnt't explain very well but I was talking about the books because they are random at times but now I think about it it's not as bad as I thought
Quote from: The Skarzs on November 06, 2017, 02:19:24 AM
Also, whether or not we want to consider it, the maps are less important than the stories they pertain to.
Yes, true statement. However, it would good to have a map for the sake of reference.
The map is in your...imagination! Wooooo. Spooky.
At risk of being guilty of thread necromancy, I once made a huge expanded redwall world map for the Golden Leaf Inn about 16 years ago.
I always treated the southeast sea as the lake, and I used the "salamandastron and the surrounding country" map as the base for scale and for clarity. I think that map is the best of the bunch and a lot of the other maps can be justified to it.
One of the big left-right decisions I always came across was the differences between the maps in Loamhedge and Mattimeo. Mattimeo has the old abbey due south, Loamhedge sort of places it southeast of the big inland lake (lake marl as some people call it).
I felt that the redwall map and riddler was always lacking for having left out Loamhedge and placing castle floret so close to the abbey. I always thought, if it was so close then why did they have to take a boat and use the roaringburn current to get there.
anyway, here's a section of the middle and south of that old map that I had. I'm considering re-drawing it for nostalgia's sake and maybe trying to do better with the loamhedge area and compromise between the two different ways it was displayed.
This was drawn when I was a pre-teen and scanned on a circa 1990's scanner, so forgive the quality. The scale stated on the map is also WAAAY too large. The south side of the top map connects to the north of the bottom map.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Xf0jr9wKWQwohXKUTDk6mVKtE8XWIMeRD7qbfhyHqa78O7qWwjhM2ZjQ8mLHW9RH4tJ57Jh-FTu2Ks6vtdnajlnOOLnhoO4XrrfQfN-51aTF9bHoxfNg-f2_xdNepNudahGUXBu1nKSezTUA_K-nVY7FAgBu90QQTSkRdCpl3i4kqkcVLOdxtsIPxL0uM8TgW7XKGmkcnAm6NRjHcc0dRHWmVJ--2RY0KW7gekpA_YSiZeKcQHZQ5c2PjnaWQ3eL26emIJup9hZo6ueHYrjbA9uDbP2QrzLRoGqiH6UlnH5kPgqxBOtlhamzL84xr0vVf15AvPi0DKi8Pz5Bqu4a2vpUESAd4nZ3MidNkeAsOY6WqIUnuC2fEr-zRAd3mnsADuv-7hQh6owG5dM0Vwjx76-yMrGvGjs4xNVsopMbhf9FqSFQWU0MytMQgA2O7_sKAKdRMIQyk002vepF7ydM8uxhiGE6WvqRyn3Gkv-zyGrL93-PgBD-J55EVzImJJaaljvU85FWElih9rauheL1961WdmT4JPmjREqK3d9lCfwJYPk1mUO4IKUJmMEK9svhqclo9HG9qwAlXql45Ey0Ydw9z7J_0N-Tx6hnHPtaRG9a5Xv6Oo7tHgaOHO8KB4jn80Qm9DM890OFLthW03TQrQJY1mFaBFq4CtDNICcXto=s1036-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p3At3QUWy5A7AshITts8QYCOGlQMcDIm7QDkJEZM6zwi-_1u9lZNxj1Oz8R77Pkab1KVRcUrgROQAq-c8CONJWvQqjc3JIVb84uzv0AcsYnhkdmCiJAJaTjoffmicpHveWitLh690XCIgHIabO670RKmTvpE0SKvXw_yQbG-33Jyfc4OlUp0_QkitGp0Za_brhyoP9jl9ULXENs4jK8w1l8LXRr4q-y0VhWc53UZ152LtvRUNdr1Cf79x-8Cm2THuohVYbrKT3oKodFuvMRCNinsobh4iDWN5mpaqPIRSz8uZl5NUmoYOvykJPhStRrrRMLdEP71Sr1VeEsM7Y3Ub-iMwTQXgOz4CDEet1X1p0X82w2uqPv0QDAKzq7SEWNoswHY_Wm983D8Dzd0TnUgYJ3FEa9DY93u5o3FQJTnPnaaxS7A46O8fi1UBJWCNGSgvFUfVdZw_p7HG5uywfA01Eoh6LTx43b3V3PR3sI-YmKG8ZTKe3WraRcSqIgvSToMQ4C5Amd9FdqHtxTjmDs_4JFVVSh0-_2NTHMMwJp-CF5i5-Q807pqarsAig_gWtGWQy60u3nZs6lVdBzv5rL0zpZABMRBmk5thSdpNrDxbbJ9rb4PrYfkBx7qsauZUM_3ic_bi5uXwmq07VqR549ygJhlXcvzvxIub4baqU1Qrk0=w1920-h1024-no)
Nice map!