Mary-Sues

Started by Wylder Treejumper, January 27, 2016, 02:17:32 AM

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alexandre

#60
Quote from: belle on September 11, 2016, 05:29:17 PM
I'm really not one to complain about a character being a Mary Sue if its a Redwall character. I prefer Redwall books and movies with "squeaky clean" characters and good morals to a lot of other trashy books with annoying, cliched "dark" characters who try to seem flawed. Of course, when the writer knows how to create a balance between good characteristics and flaws that are actually interesting and meaningful, that's cool, too.
I tend to think more in terms of whether I liked the character or not. The Taggerung was the second Redwall book I read as a kid, so the fact that Deyna was an otter amongst vermin wasn't a big deal to me the way it was when I read Outcast many books later.

I would just like to say this, why the heck do people always talk about Veil and Deyna with the Vermin to Woodlander relationships and characteristics? It is like everyone has forgotten about the great Blaggut. Blaggut is my favorite character out of any book ever.
Why they try to tear the mountains down to bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land

               ~ John Denver

And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away

                ~ John Prine

Wylder Treejumper

Blaggut is pretty amazing. Not remotely a sue, though...
"'Tis the business of small minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death."
-Thomas Paine

"Integrity and firmness is all I can promise; these, be the voyage long or short, shall never forsake me although I may be deserted by all men."
-George Washington

Courage: Not only the willingness to die manfully, but also the determination to live decently.

Ashleg

Not a Sue, but he was awesome.
He reminds me of some Disney character whom I can't recall the name...

alexandre

Quote from: Wylder Treejumper on September 22, 2016, 01:50:21 AM
Blaggut is pretty amazing. Not remotely a sue, though...
I know, But I saw Belle's quote as an opportunity to make my point, even though it is a bit off topic
Why they try to tear the mountains down to bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land

               ~ John Denver

And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away

                ~ John Prine

belle

@Wylder Treejumper @Ashleg @alexandre Blaggut was the best part about the Bellmaker!!!

The Skarzs

@Wylder: Very well said.

Looking back, I must agree as well that a lot of characters are Mary Sues from a writer's stand point, but in a way, the stories they are put into [sometimes] make it acceptable.
And really, did we not still enjoy most of the books despite the Sues?
Cave of Skarzs

Cave potato.

Ashleg

In all honesty, the only reason I finished reading Triss was because I want to one day be able to say I read the entire Redwall series.
She was pretty much the Sue of Sues, and the other characters weren't much better.

alexandre

Quote from: belle on September 22, 2016, 04:58:51 AM
@Wylder Treejumper @Ashleg @alexandre Blaggut was the best part about the Bellmaker!!!
The Best Part of Redwall too, second only to Gonff The Prince of Mousthieves.
Why they try to tear the mountains down to bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land

               ~ John Denver

And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away

                ~ John Prine

Wylder Treejumper

*Raises eyebrow*

A bit much, doncha think? There's a lot of good things about the Redwall series, and I wouldn't call any one character "the best thing about it."
"'Tis the business of small minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death."
-Thomas Paine

"Integrity and firmness is all I can promise; these, be the voyage long or short, shall never forsake me although I may be deserted by all men."
-George Washington

Courage: Not only the willingness to die manfully, but also the determination to live decently.

alexandre

Quote from: Wylder Treejumper on September 25, 2016, 02:33:05 AM
*Raises eyebrow*

A bit much, doncha think? There's a lot of good things about the Redwall series, and I wouldn't call any one character "the best thing about it."

Well... I would.
Why they try to tear the mountains down to bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land

               ~ John Denver

And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away

                ~ John Prine

The Skarzs

:P

What would be the best thing about the series? Sounds like a topic unto its own. . .
Cave of Skarzs

Cave potato.

Tiria Wildlough

Super interesting topic! The Sues in Redwall used to bug me a lot, but I've come to realize that Redwall isn't the kind of fiction where the characters need to be complex and flawed. I see them as sort of like, legends or something like that, where the characters are larger than life and don't need to be realistic. As someone (I forgot who) said, it's escapist fantasy, and there's nothing wrong with that. The idea of Sues shouldn't apply in stories like that.
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Ashleg

Sues are okay when they have reason.
Martin, for example, is supposed to be Redwall's guardian angel and the great liberator from the past; okay, I get that.
Matthias is Martin, so if he's perfect it makes sense, but what irks me is when a character comes out of nowhere and is unexplainably (and without reason) "perfect".

You can have escapist fantasy and legends where the characters aren't so flawless that they annoy the majority of readers.

clunylooney

Quote from: James Gryphon on January 27, 2016, 06:27:54 AM
The trouble with Deyna is that we already had a counterpart for how a character raised by the opposite side "should" be in Veil. Veil trended good with a dark streak up until he grew up, when he finally crossed over and became evil with a bright streak. Denya is good from the beginning, without ever experiencing any serious moral doubts or any transition from one side to another. Many of the good guys in the series have less qualms with hurting or 'mistreating' enemies than him. I think if you took Grath Longfletch's personality and plopped it into Deyna, that would probably be closer to what people would expect than what we got.

Anyway, on a more general note, here's a spreadsheet I made up ranking Sue-ishness, covering most of the books I remember reading. I don't bother ranking villains. If there's a major secondary protagonist, they might be in there too. Suggestions for characters to put on the list are more than welcome.

I only consider a character "definitely a Sue" if they are Sue-y in both categories. Mariel, with her unmatched combat talent and informed character flaws, meets this. Tiria is appropriately the Queen of Sues by this standard. Meanwhile, characters like Redwall Matthias (who is a world-class fighter by the end of Redwall, but otherwise relatively ordinary), or Rose (who is beautiful, has an exquisite singing voice, and can make perfect imitations of bird noises, but is a terrible fighter) fall short. These characters might be Sues by other series' definitions, but to be a true Redwall Sue, you have to have a perfect storm of Sueness going; after all, incredible beauty, great singing, or brilliant swordsmanship in and of themselves aren't that hard to come by here.

Some of these characters are also ranked lower because I consider the villains they faced against to have been unusually weak. Triss isn't considered a fighting Sue simply because Kurda was awful, and beating her isn't much of an accomplishment. Rakkety Tam gets away with effortlessly eluding and sneaking through Gulo's horde because they're especially inept.
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Scott McLamok

Teer is a Mary Sue......
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