Changes between Redwall (novel) Edition(s)

Started by Mara the Wolf, November 24, 2020, 04:14:02 PM

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Mara the Wolf

Does anyone have an original or First Edition Redwall? An acquaintance of mine got me the first six Redwall books (in publication order), and my Redwall novel is a "30th Anniversary Edition". I was kinda looking forward to the early-installment weirdness of this early novel, wanting to see comparisons to later books, but a few things seemed changed, and I want to see if anyone has an earlier Edition, tell me if these things actually existed in the original, or if someone's not being entirely truthful/accurate over on my favorite site, TV Tropes:


  • Redwall features a number of references indicating that the animals live in a world where humans also exist, such as a horse cart that can fit hundreds of rats, a church, taverns, ports, and a direct mention of Portugal. Also, one of the characters was a beaver. In later books, author Brian Jacques made it clear that only animals existed in the Redwall universe, and only animals native to the British Isles, so there were no future appearances of any more beavers (though beavers WERE native to Britain at one time, but they were killed off due to overhunting). And when animals that aren't native to Britain do appear, like the golden hamster in one book, they speak with foreign accents to indicate that they aren't from Mossflower.
  • The animal characters also gradually became more human-like, especially badger characters. In the first book, specific note is always made when Constance rears up on her back feet; in later books, even badgers are assumed to be bipedal.
  • The order of Redwall itself started out as reminiscent of a Catholic monastic order: the members wore habits, they lived somewhat sequestered inside their Abbey, and remained celibate for the entirety of their lives. Cornflower got yelled at for flirting with Matthias, who was then a novice of the order and therefore off-limits; when they got married, Matthias was mentioned to have left the order and lived apart from the monks. In later books, all that's left of this rule is that there is an Abbey. Even Abbesses and Abbots can be married, and not even the habit is required anymore, morphing it into some sort of peaceful commune that's little different from other communities in the forest.
  • The first book Redwall had more religious/mystical references, including mentions of heaven and hell and a snake named Asmodeus, after a demon in the Catholic/Orthodox Bible. Again, these are toned down in establishing Redwall as its own universe. In the first book, it is also ambivalent whether Sela the fox actually had unique powers. Later in the series, any claims of supernatural powers are usually explicitly presented as a "Scooby-Doo" Hoax (Psychic Dreams for Everyone and seers remained, however).
  • In an early scene in the first book, claims that Cluny's horde is all evil is met with cries of "That's right, give a rat a bad name!" implying that there are rats living in Redwall. This is most certainly not the case in the future. (Except for Grubbage.) The first book also implies generally that not only rats but other "vermin" are not Always Chaotic Evil, but the later books have the opposite being the case, aside from a few exceptions.
  • The feast scenes in the first couple of books occasionally mention corn and tomatoes. In future books, only Old World produce is available.
  • In most books, hares often interject "wot" or "wot, wot" into sentences as a Verbal Tic. Hare archetype Basil doesn't do this in Redwall. The Salamandastron hares in Mossflower do it, but it's spelled "what". Once Basil picks it up in Mattimeo, "wot" has been settled on.
  • In Mossflower, Bella says that Salamandastron is ruled exclusively by male badgers, and rulership is passed from father to son. In later books there are several female Badger Lords, and it's never mentioned whether any of the Badger Lords after Sunflash are related to each other.
  • The Sword of Martin is renamed "Ratdeath" at the end of the first book. This is never mentioned again.
  • The Bloodwrath was established in Mariel of Redwall as a kind of berserker fury that had been known to occasionally affect some badger lords of Salamandastron in the past, and that Rawnblade was the first to experience it since Boar the Fighter several generations ago. Several books later, Outcast of Redwall retconned Boar's son Sunflash the Mace into having gone into it every time he got into a battle, and the Bloodwrath subsequently became something that all badgers went into every time they got into a battle.

Currently, Killconey's yet to have his gender-change (but I'm only on Chapter 16 of Book II: The Quest), Constance kills Redtooth by throwing him into a sycamore (my favorite site says Constance killed him by repeatedly bashing his head into the wall), Cornflower does not get yelled at for flirting with Matthias (Colin gets scolded for likening them to one, but not because Matthias is off-limits) there's no ambiguity as to whether Sela has magical powers, and Basil is most definitely saying "what, what".

So, is my favorite site inaccurate, or have changes been made over the Editons?

EDIT: Turns out Fangburn dies that way, not Redtooth.
Fursonas:
Riley: Mountain lion, Sonic the Hedgehog
Amara: African wild dog, The Lion King/The Lion Guard
Masika: Eurasian river otter, Redwall
Mara: Wolf, general

Ripred the Gnawer

I think it's completely inaccurate, but I hope you don't take that as an insult...
'We stop looking for monsters under the bed when we realize they are inside of us'
"If you gaze long enough into the abyss, it'll gaze back at you"

Cornflower MM

It's been a looooong time since I read Redwall but I don't recall Cornflower ever getting scolded for being flirty. I don't remember about Sela's powers for certain, either, but Basil's "what, what"ing confused me as a child. XD

Redwall definitely has a lot of stuff and weird inconsistencies that the others don't, which has been chalked up to it being the first one and Brian not having settled into the universe yet.
If heaven and hell were mentioned in the first book (I don't remember exactly but I feel like they did), they pretty much got turned into Hellgates/Dark Forest/sunny meadows like a Greek-inspired three-tier afterlife, although even that much is a wee bit fuzzy and unclear.
The later books were definitely more polarizing with a few exceptions because Brian wrote them that way on purpose - Redwall is, after all, meant for kids and he wanted it more black and white for them.
I always found the relation chain of badgers from the books earlier in the timeline really fascinating and I wished there had been more of that in the later books - it was fun to trace them back, putting the pieces together and see how the books related to each other, although granted I first read the series in no order at all and picked them up randomly, so when they were connected that was always a fun surprise. Bloodwrath definitely did seem to get more common as the books went on. I've always thought that was because the badgers who had it were typically more integral to the story and therefore implied different than the rest of the countless badgers that were supposedly around between books, in the background of canon, etc. Can't deny that it was a really easy plot convenience tool though.

Ripred the Gnawer

I agree with Corn about the badgers. The strange thing about them though was that, in my mind, a lot of them didn't really have any business in the books. Like in Rakkety Tam, for instance. You know, there was a badger lady—I forgot her name—ruling Salamandastron? Where did she come from? And Lady Cregga Rose Eyes seemed out of place too.

And then there was that strange white badger. He sure wasn't related to any other badger lords or ladies. Neither was his brother.

And Ambrevina Rockflash of the Eastern Shores was definitely not supposed to rule Salamandastron.

Also, with the badger mums, where did Mellus and Constance come from, anyway?
'We stop looking for monsters under the bed when we realize they are inside of us'
"If you gaze long enough into the abyss, it'll gaze back at you"

LordTBT

There are no changes over the editions. The only differences with the "anniversary" editions are slight updates to the amount of time passed since the original publication of Redwall.

Some special anniversary editions include full page illustrations.

https://redwall.fandom.com/wiki/Redwall