Well, I don't know how everyone else feels about this, but when my mum was reading Lord Brocktree to me and my sister, she read the part where Lord Stonepaw puts those herbs in the fire and does this kind of ritual, and she said, 'What's he doing, calling on the spirits?'
There's also the part where Log a Log Grenn pours wine into the pool where Stonepaw died, and says it'll let him know that Brocktree is there or something. I don't know about you guys, but I think that's a bit dubious.
Thoughts?
What's dubious about it? I think they've clearly got some sort of mythos and spiritual guidance between all the badger lords, what with the burning herbs, strange visions and dreams, that carving of the future events, Lonna's Seer skills, etc.
Well, I think it's disturbing at least. Also, it's one more skill to pile on top of the badgers' strength, wisdom, size, and all that stuff.
But when it comes to herbs and stuff, it's like some kind of magic, izzenit? Magic doesn't belong in Redwall.
Yeah, I always thought some of the Badger Lord stuff was a little overpowered, but I suppose I looked past it because it's Redwall and there are a lot of things I will overlook for Redwall. I don't find it disturbing though. I think it kinda fits because they're such mysterious beasts. They're not really in the same league as the other creatures, almost like demigods. I mean, they live so long, are so powerful, have all the spiritual connections, generally are quite wise, etc. I suppose I look as them less as round characters and more as almost a higher order of creature. But then sometimes they seem very normal, like any other character in the books. They certainly are an interesting aspect of the books.
Yeah, but it did seem like Stonepaw was calling on the spirits. I don't like that part.
Why does it bother you? I didn't see anything wrong with it. It's not like they were evil spirits.
Nah, but still, I don't think it belongs with Redwall.
Fair enough, I was just curious. :) Personally it never bothered me.
What about all the references to Martin's spirit at Redwall? Granted I haven't read most of the books in a very long time, so I don't remember very well, but I don't really see how Badger Lord spirit stuff is different from Martin appearing to characters in dreams and so forth. I always thought that was a bit weird in general, that people claim there's no magic in Redwall, when there's obviously at least a very small, subtle amount, with spirits and visions and stuff. I'm not complaining, I just think it's interesting to consider.
No, but the Redwallers don't burn herbs and stuff like that. Dreams are fine with me.
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on July 02, 2012, 04:30:13 AM
Yeah, but it did seem like Stonepaw was calling on the spirits. I don't like that part.
I don't recall that part. What exactly was he calling on, and why did it bother you?
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on July 02, 2012, 04:30:13 AM
Yeah, but it did seem like Stonepaw was calling on the spirits. I don't like that part.
Yes well I don't know why he put it in there. So I just have to over look that, and it doesn't happen very much. If I had written the book I wouldn't have put that in there.
Well, remember first of all that Brian Jacques was Roman Catholic. In Catholic services, especially at High Mass and holy days like Easter or Christmas, incense is burned as offering. Only priests, bishops, or Holy Fathers (i.e. the Pope) are allowed to light and carry the censer. This is directly modeled after the Jewish Hebrew priesthood, who talked directly with God in the days of the Mosaic Covenant, serving as intermediaries twixt Man and God. God often spoke through oracular prophecy ( two big words meaning that God gave them symbolic representations of future literal events).
Now here's the connection: In medieval societies (like that of Redwall) priests and clergy were held in awe. They could talk to kings without fear of reprisal (usually). They were seen as the wise, those who knew the secrets of God. They, like the Hebrew prophet-priesthood before them, were allowed to see glimpses of events yet to come. Badgers, in the sense that they are the wise guardians of freedom and truth, serve the same function in the Redwall 'verse. They burn incense (the herbs) and see glimpses of the future.
Almost all of the badger lords and ladies have some sort of spiritual insight. The only ones I can think of who didn't have it were Urthwyte the Mighty, Orlando the Axe, and the non-Salamandastron badgers like Constance and Mellus. I think the "spirits" they're communicating with when they breathe the incense and carve on the walls are former badger lords: for example, Sunflash communicates with Boar the Fighter and Brocktree, and when Urthstripe is carving on the wall, he asks the "badger warriors from the shades" to stand beside him and "guide his paw". I think they're communicating with their forebearers in the same way that the Abbey Warriors communicate with Martin.
Actually, the whole process of breathing the incense and prophesying reminds me of the Ancient Greek oracles.