Redwall Abbey

NO!!!
Whoopsie
Sorry for shouting, hope your ears survived.

Now to be on topic, I know there are alot of Rose related topics, but this one is solely for the discussion of her life or death... To me it is rather obvious.. Of course not! Being thrown into a wall by a tired, and distracted stoat is NOT going to kill such a resilient mouse!

The book NEVER stated she was dead, it IMPLIED that she was... But never SAID so. And after all the mess ups the cartoon made, I REFUSE to take their view point.

I belive she did die, Martin wouldn't have left Noonvale and he wouldn't have told Rose's family she was dead if she wasn't.

Have you ever heard of a coma? It's a state of mind and body were you APPEAR to be dead, I believe she entered a coma, or was just really severely knocked out. Again, how could badrang possibly kill her by throwing Rose into a WALL?! She is way too sturdy for that. Martin never returned to Noonvale because he was too ashamed to do it because he THOUGHT she was dead. And I don't recall him telling any one she was dead.

It depends how she was thrown. Maybe she hit her head on the wall. Or maybe she was thrown high and fell on a weapon.

If Rose was thrown with enough force and her head hit the wall then she could have died.

Even if she was thrown on her head it wouldn't kill her. And there was no wound, that the book reinforces. She was thrown into a wall, that's that.

Why is everyone so synical about this?

And that's just it "ENOUGH FORCE," There is no way that I can see Badrang having enough force to do that, he had to be tired, was certainly distracted, and was over sized in the cartoon.

Yes she actually died.  I like your response in defense of a coma, but given the time period, given what is available to watch over the person in a coma, you just were not going to survive one.  Martin was too sad, and too willing to move on and leave everything behind.  She was clearly dead; he would've stayed with her if she was alive.

As for whether or not a blow against a wall can kill you, lets consider these possibilities: broken spine, internal bleeding, shock, heart failure.....these could all happen from being thrown against a wall.  If they had simply thrown Rose against a wall in the tv series, I think many would have a hard time believing she was dead too. ;)  Therefore they had to make it obvious she wasn't going to survive--hence death by what I guess is a slit throat or punctured heart--make of the scene what you will.  Having buried her only confirms she was definitely dead there as well, so the tv series didn't change the outcome of the books, only how it happened for the sake of understanding.

Having buried her only confirms that the t.v. series makers weren't reading the books. Wouldn't Brian have said she was dead if she was? He didn't. You don't need special attention to survive a coma, and I still stand on the fact that Rose is not a patty cake.

And another thing, Rose isn't stupid either, she would have had her hands out to absorb the stike.

Well, if she was going towards it back on, (which is how I always pictured it) she couldn't save herself by throwing out her paws.

You reach over your head.

I will discuss my point of view on this once I can get home and use my copy of Martin the Warrior as reference.

I will add thought that bumping your head the wrong way will kill you.  People fall in the bathtub or down stairs and die all the time.  It's surprisingly common.  Even if Badrang didn't throw her hard, its extremely possible she hit her head on a rock and died.  It doesn't matter how strong or weak Rose was, if you hit your head the wrong way you can die.

Quote from: danflorreguba on July 10, 2012, 05:54:28 PM
You reach over your head.

C'mon, reaching over your head, no, that wouldn't work.

Quote from: W0NWILL on July 10, 2012, 06:23:18 PM

Quote from: danflorreguba on July 10, 2012, 05:54:28 PM
You reach over your head.

C'mon, reaching over your head, no, that wouldn't work.

Yeah! If she was thrown upright?

Your hands can always reach beyond your body.... Except for certain places that only the feet can manage.

I'm saying in reaction, I wouldn't react to being flung back-first into a wall by reaching over my head, I would react by screaming.

Of course she died. Have you ever seen how big a stoat is compared to a mouse? Also, like Flandor said, bumping your head the wrong way can kill you.
She might have been in a coma, but you probaby wouldn't survive a coma unless you had proper medical treatment. Rose didn't, so she died.

She died.  Accept it. And even if she survived her injuries, then from getting old.  A LOT of time has passed in Redwall after Rose and Martin lived.

And she could had died earlier due to her injuries.

And she could have, and she could have.... I could come up with my own long list of reasons of how she survived... I'd say this is more a matter of perspective than anything else.

I'll say it is too... ;D

What does the list look like then?

I don't have the time for it right now..... Maybe later.
(I have to mulch. yech!)

Yes she died.     

Brian does says she died, through the words of Martin. Also, what would he have kept her alive for? She was never seen alive in any other books, there is simply no reason to say she lived.

Also hitting your head can EASILY kill you, I know a girl that slipped in the shower, hit her head and died.

I want a quote from the book itself. It never, through the narrators point of view said she was dead.

  I don't know if anyone else has had this thought and posted it, but have you ever thought about what would have happened if Rose hadn't died?  Martin would have never left, he would have never been to Mossflower, he wouldn't have saved the woodlanders, Redwall wouldn't have been built, he wouldn't have gotten a new sword that was kept for centuries, and so much more!  The legend would have ended!  So, I know this might sound wrong, but I'm glad Rose died.

uh.. hello! Have you ever read the fanfic, If Rose had lived?!

Quote from: Rainshadow on July 14, 2012, 02:04:06 AM
  I don't know if anyone else has had this thought and posted it, but have you ever thought about what would have happened if Rose hadn't died?  Martin would have never left, he would have never been to Mossflower, he wouldn't have saved the woodlanders, Redwall wouldn't have been built, he wouldn't have gotten a new sword that was kept for centuries, and so much more!  The legend would have ended!  So, I know this might sound wrong, but I'm glad Rose died.

Well that's mean... Know what you mean (go figure) but seriously. She could have gone too Martin AFTER all the events took place, simple solution.

yup

I already shared this with you, damflorreguba, but for all you Rose didn't die fans, take a look and see:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3817978/1/A_Mask_and_a_Song

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3868656/1/Winters_Flowers

I did not write either of these!

The first one is great, and I think the second is going to be really good too... That guy is an amazing writer!

Quote from: danflorreguba on July 14, 2012, 12:56:11 AM
I want a quote from the book itself. It never, through the narrators point of view said she was dead.

If you have hardback turn to page 371

"rowanoak shook her head wonderingly. "I heard him yesterday as I was walking through the forest. It must be very hard for him, he never mentions rose." polleekin busied herself with breakfast. "no marm nor will him'n, oi don't think never. That Liddle mouseymaid be locked in marthen's 'earth and thurr she'm bound to stay."

Obvious there but if you don't believe me I have one that says she died

Page 367

[Brome] reaching out he tucked in a corner of the simple white linen cloth that covered his sister's pitiful body. "Rose would have been alive today but for me you know."

Tell me she's still alive after that one :P

I don't support of Rose being alive, but I don't mind it.

She's not alive. Read the quote. Sorry but any way you put it she is dead

Quote from: Felldoh154 on July 14, 2012, 03:54:07 AM

Quote from: danflorreguba on July 14, 2012, 12:56:11 AM
I want a quote from the book itself. It never, through the narrators point of view said she was dead.

If you have hardback turn to page 371

"rowanoak shook her head wonderingly. "I heard him yesterday as I was walking through the forest. It must be very hard for him, he never mentions rose." polleekin busied herself with breakfast. "no marm nor will him'n, oi don't think never. That Liddle mouseymaid be locked in marthen's 'earth and thurr she'm bound to stay."

Obvious there but if you don't believe me I have one that says she died

Page 367

[Brome] reaching out he tucked in a corner of the simple white linen cloth that covered his sister's pitiful body. "Rose would have been alive today but for me you know."

Tell me she's still alive after that one :P

If you insist.

"Rose is still alive."

Seriously, that is still implying her death, not proving it.


Why do you have to be so synical?

Did you read the whole thing? Brome says his sister might be alive which means:
Hello?? She is dead!

Sorry I just like a good debate :)

Quote from: Felldoh154 on July 14, 2012, 03:59:49 AM
She's not alive. Read the quote. Sorry but any way you put it she is dead

What I mean is, that I know that she is dead, but I enjoy to see it in fan fictions.

Ya, I was really sad when she died.  :-[

O' course, who wasn't?

if she survived why didn't she re-appear in any other book?

Cuz she didn't survive :P in all honesty picturing her alive puts holes in half the books in the series because Martin would have done everything so differently

Quote from: Felldoh154 on July 14, 2012, 04:04:57 AM
Did you read the whole thing? Brome says his sister might be alive which means:
Hello?? She is dead!

Sorry I just like a good debate :)

Ahhh. But that's the thing. He didn't say outright that she was DEAD... And besides. he was young, he is no authority on death yet.
And she doesn't have to appear in another book for her to be alive. And if you handle things right, you can keep the fabric of Jaques storylines whole and complete, yet still have Rose survive.... It's quite easy actually.

No you can't. ;)
Seriously, a stoat is as big as a small cat, and mice are smaller than your hand. (not mine. ;)) Even if Badrang was tired, he could still have killed her. She died.

Ok, what settles it for me is that Aubretia would've known if Rose had lived.  She was a descendant of Brome and was able to tell the whole story, so obviously if Rose had "woken up" she would've shared that with the Redwallers.  And also, what if she was in a coma that looked like death? She would've been buried alive and then died.  That's dark but its true.  They wouldn't have left her body sitting there.  If they believed her dead, she'd have been buried, and if she was magically alive, Aubretia would've known about it.

I believe fully that Jacques meant that her spirit would always be remembered, and nothing more.  Nitpicking about what caused her death or if she was in a coma or anything doesn't make sense in the canon and isn't really in the Redwall spirit, in my opinion.  I buy that her "spirit" is undying, because Martin is clearly still "alive" in that regard, but physically, she died. 

Quote from: danflorreguba on July 14, 2012, 04:27:13 AM

Quote from: Felldoh154 on July 14, 2012, 04:04:57 AM
Did you read the whole thing? Brome says his sister might be alive which means:
Hello?? She is dead!

Sorry I just like a good debate :)

Ahhh. But that's the thing. He didn't say outright that she was DEAD... And besides. he was young, he is no authority on death yet.
And she doesn't have to appear in another book for her to be alive. And if you handle things right, you can keep the fabric of Jaques storylines whole and complete, yet still have Rose survive.... It's quite easy actually.

Dude did you read it or not? Brome clearly states she is dead! And she is to be buried! Also every character says something about remembering her!! If you can't see that as death than you're not making a point, you're just being stubborn

Oh my gosh! Seriously!

@Flandor If you don't like this "Nitpicking" as you seem to call it. Than go somewhere else and post.

@Felldoh One, never said she was to be buried... and what does that matter anyway? TO BE BURUIED? And did you read what I said?

Quote"Ahhh. But that's the thing. He didn't say outright that she was DEAD... And besides. he was young, he is no authority on death yet."

I still stand on this, High and dry even after you come storming after me..... Why do you HAVE to try and force your syniscism on me? Or others that beleive this way?

Quote"Ahhh. But that's the thing. He didn't say outright that she was DEAD... And besides. he was young, he is no authority on death yet."

it didn't say outright that martin has purple fur, so is he purple furred?

That's taking things way out of cotext... And actually I think It says his fur is brown... Main characters appearances are usually described to the reader because these books were made for blind children.

they do say he has brown fur, but that implies (key word: implies) he doesn't have purple fur, it still never said he doesn't have purple fur, and creatures can have both purple fur and brown fur.  Sorry if that sounds mocking, but sometimes it's better to trust in implications rather than believe that an author will give the reader every single detail available.

Again, it's your own choice. If you want to imagine Martin having purple fur (which is taking things a little too far) then that is your choice... But that is a bit more insane than imagining that Rose lived.

I disagree, Martin definetly had purple fur and rose died :)

Quote from: Felldoh154 on July 14, 2012, 05:29:29 PM
I disagree, Martin definetly had purple fur and rose died :)

I agree

Oh ya, and brome was a werewolf hybrid

I thought that the t.v show was way cooler than the book, even though I liked the book. I'm editing this post so I don't cause controversy. I didn't like some of the changes that they made, and again, I enjoyed the book. Even though the book is way too sad to be in my top favorites anymore. To get back on the subject, I believe Rose died physically, but was still alive in spirit.

Quote from: danflorreguba on July 14, 2012, 05:18:46 PM
Again, it's your own choice. If you want to imagine Martin having purple fur (which is taking things a little too far) then that is your choice... But that is a bit more insane than imagining that Rose lived.

you are missing the point, i wasn't saying that he did, i was saying according to your argument martin has purple fur.

Heh heh, clever  ;D

I never once said anything that suggests that. You guys are tking my words WAY out of context and sensability, and until you grow up and put them back in context. I'm not even going to bother debating it.

Saying rose is alive takes it way out of context to ya know

again, i am not saying that he has purple fur, or that you come up with insane ideas, i am saying that your argument is incorrect because, as i stated, if not saying something happens make something happen, people could come up with insane theories like martin having purple fur. 

Quote from: psybox on July 14, 2012, 04:04:05 PM
sometimes it's better to trust in implications rather than believe that an author will give the reader every single detail available.

Psybox is good at this :)

 :P
Rose not being dead is NOT taking things way out of context.

1. It is something that could EASILY happen (unlike a mouse having purple fur... You should check the holes in your own arguments before you go blasting others on theirs  :P)
2. There is ALOT of space for this to happen (again, Martin having purple fur is a really tight space to squeeze into)
3. Martin having Purple fur is creative too you know! If you dislike creativity and being optimistic, then the last thing you should be reading is Redwall!

You're missing the point, I know that purple fur is unreasonable.  however, if you assume something happens because it never said it didn't, then you could say almost anything and it would be true, including the fact that martin's fur is purple (which i think is widely agreed upon that it isn't). 

Your missing MY point. Roses' death ISN'T unreasonable. Simple as that.

an idea doesn't have to be unreasonable to be untrue, just as something doesn't have to be reasonable to be true.

Did you read the book? It clearly said rose died. The only reason he said martins fur was purple was to demonstrate how your arguments can be used to demonstrate things that are completely unreasonable.

If she didn't die then where the heck did she go haha?  Surely she would have a) found her way back to Noonvale b) found Martin or c) been mentioned in SOME other novel?  Even if your coma theory is true, then does it even matter if she was alive or dead?  She'd be as good as dead.

Pfff. I'm through trying to reason with you guys! None of you get it. You can all just go on with a lead weight were I can soar on the wing of an eagle.  :P

Hahaha. Ya know, I never gave much thought to if Rose really died or not. I guess I just accepted it. But now I find myself second-guessing.

Quote"Ahhh. But that's the thing. He didn't say outright that she was DEAD... And besides. he was young, he is no authority on death yet."

It dosn't matter if Brome was young, it would have been quite easy to tell if she was dead.Question, does it say wether they left Rose or did they bury her?

Here is an excerpt from my copy of Martin the Warrior(page 364):

"Snarling with pain and rage, he(Badrang) grabbed the mousemaid. Lifting her easily, he flung her savagely from him. Rose's head struck the wall heavily, and she slid down like a broken doll."

Well, it definetly seems like she died. Badrang lifted Rose easily, which suggests a big difference in size, weight, and strength. And Rose's head hit the wall heavily; a major injury. Still, the coma thing seems interesting. Rose is rather sturdy, and she might have made it. As for where she would go if she survived, well, we'll never know, since Brian Jacques's dead...it it would make a good fanfiction idea, in my opinion.

Quotehttp://www.fanfiction.net/s/3817978/1/A_Mask_and_a_Song

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3868656/1/Winters_Flowers

I did not write either of these!

I'll quote my post. These are the best fanfictions I could find that had to do with Rose surviving. I'm a fan of it in fanfictions, but I know that she did die.

She did die but it would have been cool if she lived

Well it's nice to see that not everyone screams bloody murder.

Quote from: Wisteria Wild Cat on July 15, 2012, 04:43:37 AM
Hahaha. Ya know, I never gave much thought to if Rose really died or not. I guess I just accepted it. But now I find myself second-guessing.

Quote from: Skyblade on July 15, 2012, 03:27:23 PM
Here is an excerpt from my copy of Martin the Warrior(page 364):

"Snarling with pain and rage, he(Badrang) grabbed the mousemaid. Lifting her easily, he flung her savagely from him. Rose's head struck the wall heavily, and she slid down like a broken doll."

Well, it definetly seems like she died. Badrang lifted Rose easily, which suggests a big difference in size, weight, and strength. And Rose's head hit the wall heavily; a major injury. Still, the coma thing seems interesting. Rose is rather sturdy, and she might have made it. As for where she would go if she survived, well, we'll never know, since Brian Jacques's dead...it it would make a good fanfiction idea, in my opinion.

Thank you for the much more toned down post. I have alot easiar of a time listening to you because you take multiple variables into consideration.

Thank you danflorreguba. I just don't like taking sides usually. Anyway, if Rose was alive that would be interesting.

@WONWILL thanks for the fanfiction lists

Ya I'm sorry I didn't look at both sides and shot your idea down so harshly, :(

Quote from: Skyblade on July 16, 2012, 01:49:10 AM
Thank you danflorreguba. I just don't like taking sides usually. Anyway, if Rose was alive that would be interesting.

@WONWILL thanks for the fanfiction lists

Yeah, the fictions are amazing. I'm working on the second right now.

Quote from: Felldoh154 on July 16, 2012, 02:20:14 AM
Ya I'm sorry I didn't look at both sides and shot your idea down so harshly, :(

If mistakes were grains of sand, the entire world would be a giant desert.  :)

(lol, I'd probably have the Sahara all to myself!  :D)

I'm sure I didn't make a mistake. Rose died. I already talked about how stoats are way bigger than mice, and Badrang was probably in a rage, which makes him stronger.
Also, even if Rose did survive, her parents wouldn't have let her follow Martin. I have to say I rather like the idea of Rose surviving and going off to find Martin against her parents' wishes, cause it would be a nice romantic fanfiction.
I heard of this person who was really nice, then got a brain disease, and when he recovered, he was still nice, but he would have these bad moments where he wasn't himself. It would be interesting if that happened to Rose.

Rose did die, our mistake was shooting the idea down, he is free to imagine it whatever way he likes

Yeah, true. Now I'm off to write that fanfiction. ;)

Ok

AHA! Proof! If you have the 'Tribes of Redwall Mice' and you turn to mouse heroes it says under Rose: Martin calls her 'the warrior who uses the voice instead of the sword', and after her death-' etc etc, proof, written by the author himself, can't be much clearer than that.

 Yes she did They Must of waited a few day's for some creatures to say goodbye and they buried her so I have to say She Died

too many people (on both sides, i might add) seem to be giving weak arguments, for example, Dannflor (the one who posted right above me), Comas can last for much more than a few days.  On the other side of the argument, believing something happens simply because they never stated that it didn't is a really weak argument. 

Quote from: psybox on July 28, 2012, 12:26:48 AM
too many people (on both sides, i might add) seem to be giving weak arguments, for example, Dannflor (the one who posted right above me), Comas can last for much more than a few days.  On the other side of the argument, believing something happens simply because they never stated that it didn't is a really weak argument. 

I believe the "she died" side has given strong enough arguments.  Read the whole thread.

Quote from: Skipper on July 27, 2012, 07:50:50 PM
AHA! Proof! If you have the 'Tribes of Redwall Mice' and you turn to mouse heroes it says under Rose: Martin calls her 'the warrior who uses the voice instead of the sword', and after her death-' etc etc, proof, written by the author himself, can't be much clearer than that.

I STILL stand that in the book MARTIN THE WARRIOR, it was never stated... "Tribes of Redwall Mice is a side book that I haven't even heard tell of, and refuse to use it as a factual source... Mods can you please either delete or lock this topic? I'm erasing the poll.

But Brian wrote the book so it is still proof, sorry if this seems rude to you but in my opinion it seems like your being quite stubborn and for some reason you can't bear to belive rose is dead.

The thing is, that's exactly it. Let him be stubborn and use his imagination.

Quote from: Skipper on July 29, 2012, 08:59:06 AM
But Brian wrote the book so it is still proof, sorry if this seems rude to you but in my opinion it seems like your being quite stubborn and for some reason you can't bear to belive rose is dead.

It's a good thing your saying that to me and not someone else because that SOUNDS really rude... I get your meaning though, but that still doesn't prove it in my perspective. I still wan't to see DIRECT proof. Not some exerpt from some weird book I know nothing about. And Authors make mistakes. He wouldn't have fudged this in Martin the Warrior... (Actually even there he could have)... But that would be an easy mistake to make in another book.

So you doubt Mr. Jacques knew what he was doing?  I think the "poof" you seek is in the other ball court, not yours, but you're still wishing you had the ball to make your play. ;)  I'm glad to see someone really trying to prove and state why their opinion is correct, but I feel you're losing your argument because there's too much evidence against what you think.

Besides this is a fiction book, not something like border control. ;)  No reason to lose sleep over it.

Can the mods please just throw this topic? I'm sick of it.

I don't know why you had to change the poll to a bunch of tongues. I don't know, but that seems pretty rude to me.
I'm sorry you got angry. But Lutra's right - there's too much evidence that Rose did die. If you're proved wrong, the best thing to do is not to lose your temper and get back at people. I'm not trying to tick you off.

In turn, I'm not trying to gt back at people, I just would appreciate if the mods would destroy this topic seeing as everyone besides me thinks along the less desirable path... That's pretty much sums up what we have figured out on here.

As you wish.