Recently I've been thinking a bit about the Redwall formula and the things that pertain to it; the good mice, squirrels, etc. and the evil rats, ferrets, foxes, the distinctly pseudo-medieval environment, the consistently vague, but ultimately balanced character size scale, and everything.
The reason for this is that I've had the idea of making my own piece of fan fiction that would stir some of this up, and it's occurred to me that with all the changes I have in mind, it might cease to be Redwall fan fiction and instead become something different -- Redwall-like, certainly, but ultimately a distinct form of literature.
To list off a few of the differences:
1) The Redwall world is basically Great Britain, with some overseas adventures thrown in (most notably the Monitors). My world is similar in principle, but starkly different in that it portrays North America. Thus, instead of wildcats, stoats, etc., you end up with some new animals like coyotes, skunks, and raccoons, for example. As drastic a difference as this might sound, though, it is probably the least important change.
2) The world is more advanced technologically. Just like how the Redwall series sometimes blurs the technological timeline (having knightly arming swords and Renaissance rapiers at the same time), my story probably will as well, but the characters are going to be in the "gun"' phase of development. Many will have only one or two shot weapons, some may rely on flintlocks or blunderbusses, and a few might have 19th-century six-shooters, but the overall change is going to mean that paw-to-paw combat isn't the end-all. The corsairs will still have their cutlasses, and most of the guns won't be exceptionally powerful (their real-life counterparts often weren't), but this will definitely influence the feel of things. I admit that the reason for this is partly experimental -- I remembered one person commenting that Redwall with guns probably wouldn't feel like Redwall, and I wanted to put that theory to the test.
3) There are fewer "good" species. Under my classification system, basically only pure herbivores and insectivores unreservedly qualify as 'good', meaning that some species (squirrels, otters, chipmunks) are shifted over to the new "grey" category. This has implications of its own, which I'll try to go into shortly. Something that's worth mentioning is that badgers, being omnivores and relatively frequent predators, classify in my system as a villainous species! To balance these inequalities out, I figured I would add dogs to the good side -- while it is true that they are carnivores, and are normally predators too, the domestic dog represents loyalty, protection, and the curbing of aggression to benefit society at large, things well-befitting heroes. Anyway, I have coyotes and plenty of other canines if I want villains.
4) As alluded to above, species are not necessarily black and white. I expect most of the villain species will stay villains -- after all, they're either carnivores or vermin, or both -- but there should be species that could go either way, and even 'good' races, while generally on the right side, may not be 100% with it like they are now. If Sheriff John the hound is investigating a murder, and the suspects are Mark the mouse, Riverblaze the otter, and Sawtooth the weasel, it shouldn't be completely obvious from the beginning who's responsible. The odds are still pretty good the weasel had been involved, but it still might have been the otter or even the mouse. The idea is to have good characters, more than good species.
5) I want to try to keep a more realistic size scale between the creatures, so that mice and shrews are tiny, followed by much larger rats, who in turn are dwarfed by hares/jackrabbits, who are smaller than dogs, and so on. The guns somewhat balance things out, but if a rat gets in a physical fight with a shrew, he should have a huge advantage. If a cougar is chasing a mouse-run train, it'd be roughly equivalent to a dragon pursuing a cart.
At what point, if any, do these changes make you think, "Nope, that's definitely not Redwall" -- and why?
Oh man! Now I want to read it!! ;D ;D
Seriously, James Gryphon, you should write this. It sounds like an interesting change. No, it's not really Redwall, but based on it.
This sounds like a great idea, and I can't wait to see how it turns out.
Now for your question: all of these would be big differences, but I believe the less of the "good" species idea and the grey characters is the biggest difference between your idea and Redwall. Redwall had a very strict formula in these terms, and breaking that formula is both different and extremely interesting. It would also make it more predictable then Redwall.
The guns would be cool, but make sure they aren't used too often. Nothing beats one-on-one combat with swords etc., in my opinion. Using guns could change this. Imagine how different the fight between Martin and Tsarmina would have been if Martin had a gun? One shot, she's dead.
Scaling the characters to size is a good idea, and will make it more "realistic".
I love the new species idea, with raccoons etc., and I was thinking about doing this myself at one stage.
Just a suggestion, maybe you could have towns, with farms and shops etc. A bit like what is briefly mentioned in "Redwall". This would make things interesting.
I can't wait to see how this ends up. Who knows, it may even be published one day! :)
Will Redwall Abbey, Mossflower Woods, Salamandastron ect be making an appearance? If not, I don't think it'd be any more Redwall than something like, say, Watershrimp Down. Haven't read any of that though, for the record.
I've always wanted a raccoon in one of the books- they're my favorite animal
Quote from: James Gryphon on September 06, 2011, 01:15:43 PM
At what point, if any, do these changes make you think, "Nope, that's definitely not Redwall" -- and why?
I have to say... all of the changes you listed above make me think, "Nope, that's definitely not Redwall". As for why, I think you already covered that in your analysis of the changes. They're "not Redwall" simply because these elements don't appear in any of the books.
Having said that, I really like the idea. It's Redwall-like in that you're using animals instead of humans, but it's a whole new, interesting world. I think you should write it anyway! I don't think it'd be Redwall fanfiction per se, but it would be Redwall
inspired fiction. I'm looking forward to reading it. :)
Ooh, this is interesting! I think the most un-Redwall thing in your list, James, is the guns instead of swords. Guns kinda take away the excitement, and you really don't need skill to fire a gun, like you need to fire an arrow.
Redwall (not the abbey) would sorta collapse if everyone used guns. It wouldn't be as exiting, like others said.
As far as the excitement factor:
That same thought crossed my mind, about swordfights maybe being more exciting, but then it struck me that the main element of excitement in the fight isn't necessarily the execution of it, but the build-up to it.
For instance, one of the best fights I can think of -- where the execution did matter -- was between Graypatch and Bigfang in Mariel of Redwall, where Graypatch is nearly overpowered by the younger rat's strength and aggressiveness, but is still able to win because of his superior experience. Yet that wouldn't be half as meaningful if you didn't already know the bad blood between the two, and all of the things that had been done up to that point. If their duel was the beginning of the book, it would still be good, but it wouldn't be as impressive as it is now. It's the emotions and the release of tension, from all of the previous conflict, that make that fight work out so well.
It's just like Christmas presents -- the excitement about getting them is almost always better than the actual experience of getting them.
Because of that, I'm not sure you really need to have a prolonged fight scene for it to work out well. In Westerns, it's always about who has the quickest draw -- and there's that element of tension that's brought on by knowing that, just maybe, the hero won't be able to beat the villain in bringing their gun out. It has about the same degree of action, packed into a much shorter space of time. ;)
Interesting. Very thoughtful, as usual. ;D
Quote from: Taggerung_of_Redwall on September 07, 2011, 05:24:51 PM
.....I don't think it'd be any more Redwall than something like, say, Watershrimp Down.
You mean "Watership Down". YEah, it shows you haven't read it! :D
I just didn't change it to the correct title after I posted it, I just let it be. I figured people would know what I was talking about.
*edit*
I don't get how the guns are the "biggest change". They strike me as perhaps the smallest change mentioned. Reconfiguring species alignment and implementing completely new ones and altering how they're presented with size comparison strikes me as much larger difference.
I'd say having a group of trained mice running around with sniper rifles, SMGs, and driving tanks and armored vehicles would not be very Redwall, at all. With the weaponry James Gryphon mentioned, it doesn't seem to me to be that far off, though it might depend on exactly which guns he uses. It depends how the weaponry is presented. If done in a certain way, I could imagine it might feel like Redwall, assuming other elements haven't been changed like adding magical flares and escaping ghouls.
Can't wait to read it! I have an old notebook of characters I gave to Brian (i have a copy of it) when I was littler. One of the characters was a skunk named Raoul... He was awesome 8) I still have the notebook
Quoteyou really don't need skill to fire a gun, like you need to fire an arrow.
You actually need a
lot of skill to shoot a gun. Have you ever read how to shoot a flintlock pistol. I have. It's 40 something steps. The bullets might fall out as your trying to load your rifle, and when its raining the ammunition might blow up in your face. Also guns at that time period were extremely inaccurate. You might have more of a chance surviving a shot than a arrow,seeing how arrows were almost always poison. Also guns cannot be used good at close range.
ok first of all THIS SOUNDS AWSOME! second of all this would have to take place somewhere north cause badgers in north america ARE ONLY ABOVE organ and ohio so this would have to either take place in canada or realy northern U.S.A also u could add like prcupines groundhogs or bobcats just a few suggestions but IT SOUNDS AWSOME WHEN DO U THINK U WILL HAVE LIKE THHE FIRST CHAPTER DONE CAUSE I WANNA READ IT
rakkety tam AKA balock AKA ben
Quote from: Taggerung_of_Redwall on September 07, 2011, 05:24:51 PM
I don't think it'd be any more Redwall than something like, say, Watershrimp Down.
Did you write Watershrimp on purpose? It's Watership Down, but you probably know that. I think the Watershrimp thing would make an excellent otter book ;D
@JG, The more I think about this, the more I say, 'No, this isn't Redwall, it's something completely different.' This is a world where mice cannot fight wildcats and win, slingotters can't go within a mile of wildcats with axes, and everything is awfully EVEN. :D
It's not that I don't like it, though. ;)
1 ---- You might want to check out the internet comic Inherit The Earth. Since this is set in North America, the animals are different. It might give you some ideas regarding characters.
2 ---- Again, the other comic has lost technology that can affect the world. The introduction of guns isn't too odd. You might want to consider how Japan first reacted to the modern weapon. It seems reasonable that the world wouldn't stagnate. It was something I also addressed in my Vermin Badger series.
3 ---- If you are going to change the lineup of characters, then the idea is a valid one. I liked your reasoning for the dogs.
4 ---- I'm also a great believer in the grey character. Nothing is pure good or evil. It is one of the biggest faults in the Redwall series. At least that is my personal feeling.
5 ---- Hope you're into art. The idea of having the various species represented in various heights could have some unexpected results. For example, how do you have a shrew fight a wolf? If you maintain a scale, the shrew could never reach the wolf with a paw-held weapon, or it would be too clumsy for the shorter character.
Quote from: James Gryphon on September 06, 2011, 01:15:43 PM
Recently I've been thinking a bit about the Redwall formula and the things that pertain to it; the good mice, squirrels, etc. and the evil rats, ferrets, foxes, the distinctly pseudo-medieval environment, the consistently vague, but ultimately balanced character size scale, and everything.
The reason for this is that I've had the idea of making my own piece of fan fiction that would stir some of this up, and it's occurred to me that with all the changes I have in mind, it might cease to be Redwall fan fiction and instead become something different -- Redwall-like, certainly, but ultimately a distinct form of literature.
To list off a few of the differences:
1) The Redwall world is basically Great Britain, with some overseas adventures thrown in (most notably the Monitors). My world is similar in principle, but starkly different in that it portrays North America. Thus, instead of wildcats, stoats, etc., you end up with some new animals like coyotes, skunks, and raccoons, for example. As drastic a difference as this might sound, though, it is probably the least important change.
2) The world is more advanced technologically. Just like how the Redwall series sometimes blurs the technological timeline (having knightly arming swords and Renaissance rapiers at the same time), my story probably will as well, but the characters are going to be in the "gun"' phase of development. Many will have only one or two shot weapons, some may rely on flintlocks or blunderbusses, and a few might have 19th-century six-shooters, but the overall change is going to mean that paw-to-paw combat isn't the end-all. The corsairs will still have their cutlasses, and most of the guns won't be exceptionally powerful (their real-life counterparts often weren't), but this will definitely influence the feel of things. I admit that the reason for this is partly experimental -- I remembered one person commenting that Redwall with guns probably wouldn't feel like Redwall, and I wanted to put that theory to the test.
3) There are fewer "good" species. Under my classification system, basically only pure herbivores and insectivores unreservedly qualify as 'good', meaning that some species (squirrels, otters, chipmunks) are shifted over to the new "grey" category. This has implications of its own, which I'll try to go into shortly. Something that's worth mentioning is that badgers, being omnivores and relatively frequent predators, classify in my system as a villainous species! To balance these inequalities out, I figured I would add dogs to the good side -- while it is true that they are carnivores, and are normally predators too, the domestic dog represents loyalty, protection, and the curbing of aggression to benefit society at large, things well-befitting heroes. Anyway, I have coyotes and plenty of other canines if I want villains.
4) As alluded to above, species are not necessarily black and white. I expect most of the villain species will stay villains -- after all, they're either carnivores or vermin, or both -- but there should be species that could go either way, and even 'good' races, while generally on the right side, may not be 100% with it like they are now. If Sheriff John the hound is investigating a murder, and the suspects are Mark the mouse, Riverblaze the otter, and Sawtooth the weasel, it shouldn't be completely obvious from the beginning who's responsible. The odds are still pretty good the weasel had been involved, but it still might have been the otter or even the mouse. The idea is to have good characters, more than good species.
5) I want to try to keep a more realistic size scale between the creatures, so that mice and shrews are tiny, followed by much larger rats, who in turn are dwarfed by hares/jackrabbits, who are smaller than dogs, and so on. The guns somewhat balance things out, but if a rat gets in a physical fight with a shrew, he should have a huge advantage. If a cougar is chasing a mouse-run train, it'd be roughly equivalent to a dragon pursuing a cart.
At what point, if any, do these changes make you think, "Nope, that's definitely not Redwall" -- and why?
I wouldn't really like the idea of it. It would seem too much like "talking animals come to town" or something. when you add a skunk, or something like that it makes it sound silly instead of a sensible turn in a book series. I do really like the idea of proportion, but maybe not so much at the same time. I think guns and more modern things would make it like water ship down.
I understand what you mean about how the animals would change in size but what if you just do eachone like a few inches biger or something it would give the same advantage thing you were talking aobut but as other people said the shrew would then have a chance against a wolf
Each one around the same size would be better. Guns might ruin it because they could shoot the Abbey or defend from it too easily.
Are you ever going to write this? It sounds amazing!!!!!
Quote from: Log-a-Log on September 08, 2011, 01:44:32 AM
I've always wanted a raccoon in one of the books- they're my favorite animal
a racoon lives near my apartment, I named it Morgan LaFitte, after the racoon swashbuckler in Pirate101 ;D
Certain Redwall characters could have actually had guns
Now I'm trying to imagine Pallum with a flintlock rifle XD!! Or, an otter rogue with a pair of pistols!!
I'm being serious here! There were several vermin leaders who were from somewhere east... Maybe the guns were just so bad and inaccurate they just stopped using them
I don't like the idea of guns in Redwall, and Brian also explained why he didn't want other species in because they aren't native to Britain.
Quote from: Romsca on January 11, 2013, 01:48:22 AM
I'm being serious here! There were several vermin leaders who were from somewhere east... Maybe the guns were just so bad and inaccurate they just stopped using them
I agree, but I enjoy making jokes about just about everything. Sorry if I offended you.
Quote from: Redwaller on January 11, 2013, 02:03:20 AM
I don't like the idea of guns in Redwall, and Brian also explained why he didn't want other species in because they aren't native to Britain.
In the original books, I'm glad there were no guns, and it makes sense to limit it to species that are from the same climate. However, in a Redwall-based fanfic, it's an interesting twist. It'd be bad if Brian Jaques did it, but a similar book with guns and different creatures is a great idea! (as long as it sticks to matchlocks, wheel locks, and flintlocks. after that, they were too accurate.)
Well, if you start introducing new species and new weapons, you can just start your own book serie! :-\
I like the changes you made! It's all about creating new boundaries! :D
I think it's a great idea!
Quote from: Skalrag of Marshank on September 10, 2011, 04:16:40 PM
Ooh, this is interesting! I think the most un-Redwall thing in your list, James, is the guns instead of swords. Guns kinda take away the excitement, and you really don't need skill to fire a gun, like you need to fire an arrow.
well, very true, but snipers are still necessary. Those guys take skill to the next level.