Taggerung

[Tungro]

I want Deyna to be EVIL!!

Every
Villein
Is
Lemons!!!

I known right, that would have made the book so much better. To have him bad for the first two books and reformed in the last one

[Steelinghades]

I known right, that would have made the book so much better. To have him bad for the first two books and reformed in the last one

But then that wouldn't have been black and white enough for mister Jacques, never mind the fact It would have been a great redemption story. Because apparently children don't understand complex or grey characters, honestly I think Jacques underestimated children in that regard.

I for example was the kind of child that read the Malazan books. Although if you want a book series like redwall but a bit more grey I know of two, Welkins weasels and the Son of Mausgard.

[Ouroboros]

Was there really a need to resurrect a seven year old topic for this?

[The Skarzs]

Sure, why not?

I did like the idea of a "Taggerung"; kind of gives a "chosen warrior" to the vermin in contrast to the good guys. (I just got an idea for a fanfic. . .) The Taggerung is a legendary warrior of unmatched skill, speed, strength, and pretty much everything. Imagine if that title continued through more than one book, though it probably would have to be tweaked a bit to work.

Taggerung (Deyna?) did kind of annoy me a bit by not being at all like a vermin, despite being raised by them, but that's more of a personal problem.

[The Grey Coincidence]

Sure, why not?

I did like the idea of a "Taggerung"; kind of gives a "chosen warrior" to the vermin in contrast to the good guys. (I just got an idea for a fanfic. . .) The Taggerung is a legendary warrior of unmatched skill, speed, strength, and pretty much everything. Imagine if that title continued through more than one book, though it probably would have to be tweaked a bit to work.

Taggerung (Deyna?) did kind of annoy me a bit by not being at all like a vermin, despite being raised by them, but that's more of a personal problem.

Yeah, that contrast would have been very nice to see. As a contrast...
I didn't need him to be Cluny or Gulo- but honest, kind and decent? Really?

[Jetthebinturong]

Sure, why not?

I did like the idea of a "Taggerung"; kind of gives a "chosen warrior" to the vermin in contrast to the good guys. (I just got an idea for a fanfic. . .) The Taggerung is a legendary warrior of unmatched skill, speed, strength, and pretty much everything. Imagine if that title continued through more than one book, though it probably would have to be tweaked a bit to work.

Taggerung (Deyna?) did kind of annoy me a bit by not being at all like a vermin, despite being raised by them, but that's more of a personal problem.

That's not a personal problem, that's an objective flaw with the book. And the series in general.

[Tungro]

Keep in mind it was meant for young children who have very little concept of 'grey' characters

[Jetthebinturong]

No, that's something someone who doesn't understand children would say. "It's for kids!" isn't an excuse for LAZY WRITING. Also Redwall isn't aimed at young kids, it's aimed at fairly old kids in like the 10-13 range. And anyway kids care about a story that makes sense. Which is why Taggerung and Outcast kind of spectacularly fail. Because they lack any sense of logic beyond "he's good because he's good, and he's evil because he's evil."

[The Skarzs]

Mm. It makes for easy storytelling, but not so much good, believable world building.

[Steelinghades]

Keep in mind it was meant for young children who have very little concept of 'grey' characters

I mentioned this above, but, you are massively underestimating what children are capable of understanding.  The whole, children wouldn't understand it thing, only works as an excuse for very young children, I'm talking five or six which is coincidentally a bit young for the violence in Redwall.

I don't know if you guys have compared redwall to another popular younger/children's fantasy book, that being the Hobbit, but Redwall is a surprisingly violent book series.

[The Grey Coincidence]

Evil!Tagg and Brat!Tagg are both great ideas, but how about Guilty!Tagg?
It always irked me a little that this 'good guy' is more or less a psychopath. It's stated clearly in the books that he never loved Sawney (the guy who raised him- and I'd imagine love comes pretty easily to the 'good' woodlander). If he had to be kind and decent, then fine, let's put aside common sense for a little bit. Supposing his nature trumped nurture as is apparently the case in Taggerung- Tagg should have been averse to killing and actively be trying to dissuade the Juska from doing it, because he should have loved them. He grew up around all of them, was basically given the best of everything by Sawney aside from Gruven and Antigra (and perhaps Felch) none of them seemed particularly inimical towards him, and definitely weren't while he was still a kid (Sawney would have murdered them) - but doesn't really care about any of them 'because I'm an otter and they're all different species'.
Which doesn't make sense because Gonff as far as I'm concerned (that means I'm not a hundred percent sure) was more or less raised by the Stickles yet loves them like family as does basically every other woodland orphan raised inside Redwall Abbey.
So why is it that Tagg abandons everyone he's grown up with? Because of a dream? A dream somehow changes fifteen or do seasons of co-habitation?
And when he leaves he should have been more conflicted and at least *consider* turning back instead of just 'theyre a different species, I don't belong with them'.
Gosh, I made Deyna sound so racist here...

[The Skarzs]

Good points, though.

[The Grey Coincidence]

And it makes no sense when put next to Veil! Sure it's debatable whether or not Veil cared for Bryrony- but Bryrony- a mouse- definitely cared about Veil (love was there even if good parenting wasn't). Despite the fact that Veil wasn't particularly nice to her.
On the other paw, Sawney was nice to Deyna- at least from what we've seen of him anyways- but Deyna at most admired his leadership (occasionally) and didn't have any troubles walking out on him, whereas Byrony followed Veil to the very end.

[Sebias of Redwall]

And it makes no sense when put next to Veil! Sure it's debatable whether or not Veil cared for Bryrony- but Bryrony- a mouse- definitely cared about Veil (love was there even if good parenting wasn't). Despite the fact that Veil wasn't particularly nice to her.
On the other paw, Sawney was nice to Deyna- at least from what we've seen of him anyways- but Deyna at most admired his leadership (occasionally) and didn't have any troubles walking out on him, whereas Byrony followed Veil to the very end.

Great points.

Yeah, someone should write a fanfic with a vermin Taggerung.

[Kade Rivok]

Evil!Tagg and Brat!Tagg are both great ideas, but how about Guilty!Tagg?
It always irked me a little that this 'good guy' is more or less a psychopath. It's stated clearly in the books that he never loved Sawney (the guy who raised him- and I'd imagine love comes pretty easily to the 'good' woodlander). If he had to be kind and decent, then fine, let's put aside common sense for a little bit. Supposing his nature trumped nurture as is apparently the case in Taggerung- Tagg should have been averse to killing and actively be trying to dissuade the Juska from doing it, because he should have loved them. He grew up around all of them, was basically given the best of everything by Sawney aside from Gruven and Antigra (and perhaps Felch) none of them seemed particularly inimical towards him, and definitely weren't while he was still a kid (Sawney would have murdered them) - but doesn't really care about any of them 'because I'm an otter and they're all different species'.
Which doesn't make sense because Gonff as far as I'm concerned (that means I'm not a hundred percent sure) was more or less raised by the Stickles yet loves them like family as does basically every other woodland orphan raised inside Redwall Abbey.
So why is it that Tagg abandons everyone he's grown up with? Because of a dream? A dream somehow changes fifteen or do seasons of co-habitation?
And when he leaves he should have been more conflicted and at least *consider* turning back instead of just 'theyre a different species, I don't belong with them'.
Gosh, I made Deyna sound so racist here...

He doesn't not love them just because they're of a different species ya know.  He states that he doesn't agree with their ways, he never has.  The years he was growing up were relatively peaceful for the Juska, which is why the point had never been pressed as far as it did as when Tagg left.  As for not loving Sawney, it's the same thing.  He doesn't agree with his ways. 

You have to remember that the beasts in Redwall aren't human and therefore act under a different set of rules in-universe than we do.  The creatures in these stories have a morality inherent to them at birth.  Yes, in real life, even if a child was raised by a "bad" parent, he would still likely hold some love for them.  Here though, Tagg is raised by a vermin.  As a species of goodbeast, he inwardly knows that things aren't quite right.  In your example with Gonff, he's still being raised by a species of goodbeast so it makes sense that he would naturally love them.

Tagg's character is working within the set of rules that the Redwall universe (and the story) is governed by.  Saying he's a "psychopath" is a bit much.  He's simply acting as a goodbeast would.