Gingivere Greeneyes

[MeadowR]

I believe they went off to live elsewhere (mainly north) in their dwindling numbers.

[Sanddunes]

All of you have a good point of not being many and there was a pretty large gap between Mossflower and Redwall history wise

[The Skarzs]

True.

I wonder if the cats in High Rhulain had any connection to Ungatt Trunn and Verduga.

[Ashleg]

I don't know if color has to do with anything, but Julius was orange and was related to Tsarmina.
Riggu was gray, and Trunn was brown.

[Sanddunes]

True.

I wonder if the cats in High Rhulain had any connection to Ungatt Trunn and Verduga.

They could be like their ancestors use to be part of their father's king at least the wildcats I think the feral cats were from farther south

[Grond]

I think it was mentioned that Brocktree was "in his prime". I don't know what age exactly that's supposed to be--but to me it always seemed like late 30s early 40s.

This would make sense. As at this age Brocktree could still be "in his prime", albeit at the later stages of it, but at the same time still have an adult son to leave in charge of Mossflower- as it is conceivable that he could have fathered Boar when he was like 20 or thereabouts. It could also explain why Stonepaw was an extremely old badger, as he might have fathered Brocktree in his late 30s or maybe even around 40. Which would mean he was in his late 70s or 80 at the time of the novel Lord Brocktree. Since Ungatt Trunn was about the same age as Lord Brocktree and Verduga was his younger brother- it would make sense that Verduga was around 10 years younger than Brocktree/Trunn and 10 years older than Boar. This would fit with Mossflower as in that book Verduga had atrophied and was in pretty poor shape (although it is unclear if this was due to old age or illness or being poisoned by Fortuna or a combination of all the above). It is probable that he was in his 70s in Mossflower while Boar was in his 60s. Boar was described in Mossflower as an old badger but he hadn't yet gotten to the stage of being infirm and could still physically function just fine so him being in his 60s would fit pretty well.

The only thing with Bella and also Cregga was that they were the 2 longest lived creatures in Redwall. So its not inconceivable that she was over a 100 by the time of Outcast of Redwall. Given the fact that she was in middle aged during the time of Mossflower and Gingivere was a young adult it could go both ways I guess as to Gingivere being alive at the time of Outcast of Redwall.

But it is strange how between Mossflower and Redwall there is no mention of wildcats in Mossflower despite the Gingivere line being alive and present in Mossflower during this time. Another factor is Gingivere and Sandoval, and even Tsarmina, were not "cannibals" or they did not eat mice or other woodlanders. While Julian at one point, earlier in his life, did eat mice. While he is never described as a cannibal, going by Redwall criteria he was- as the criteria for being a cannibal seems to be eating other "sentient" species. Hence why Gulo and his horde were described as cannibals. A wolverine of fox eating a hare, water rate, squirrel etc.. is not more "cannibalistic" than a cat eating a mouse would be. Julian was also not depicted as a wild cat but probably more akin to a feral cat so interbreeding between the two in Mossflower probably did take place at a pretty extensive scale. Furthermore, given all this it is also probable that Gingivere's descendants may not have been as benign as he was- hence why Redwallers might come to avoid them or even alternatively view them as a threat even.

[Ashleg]

Take the cannibalism with the cat thing as a grain of salt, that was before Brian decided to make his world how it was for the rest of the series.

[Maudie]

But why should we? Redwall was still a part of the series and just as canon as the other books. Why shouldn't Julian actually be a cannibal?

[Ashleg]

There are many reasons we should, mainly because of the out-of-place barn, the uncanny size difference, and oh, I don't know, because it wasn't treated like cannibalism as it would have been in one of the more developed books.

The most major one of all, though, is how the rest of the series disproves it by never having a similar sequence again. I believe there is a thread about this--many people feel the original is not canon as it was not originally intended to produce a series.

[a crumb]

All of that, yes.

Whenever cannibalism re-emerges in the series after the first book, it is seen as a particularly villainous, evil, and horrifying behavior. Even vermin who don't engage in it are shocked by it -it is very uncommon. In the first book, it is just an offhanded thing. The way things are. Nothing special. Just the nature of things for a cat. Very different from its conception when it re-emerges as a concept in its own right (which happens in Rakkety Tam, unless I'm forgetting something prior to that).

[Jukka the Sling]

I've thought many times that it would be cool to have a rewritten version of the first book, removing all the out-of-place elements.  The ones that really annoy me are the horse and cart and, yeah, the giant cannibal cat who lives out in Mossflower.

[Ashleg]

The cat thing annoyed me before I even read the other books.

The horse thing, ehhh, not until I realized that it was out of place. But in the first book itself it did not annoy me. But I can see how it would be annoying.

[a crumb]

I've thought many times that it would be cool to have a rewritten version of the first book, removing all the out-of-place elements.  The ones that really annoy me are the horse and cart and, yeah, the giant cannibal cat who lives out in Mossflower.

The random beaver is even better than the cannibal cat, imo. Like, that guy would've been useful in the fight against Cluny besides just producing a crossbow.

Though, having this conversation makes me realize how much I enjoyed Redwall's unique dynamics. There's something cool about the logistics, specifically. Where everyone was, about how hundreds of vermin could just somehow be found, beavers out nearby...the world was very alive. More full.

[Ashleg]

I'm the only one who does not remember a beaver.

[a crumb]

The Beaver

And the wiki actually notes he was described as "equally well-built beast" as Constance.