Who's the better (BLANK)?

[Ashleg]

Who's the better FATHER?
Swartt Sixclaw
- 1 (11.1%)
Feragho the Assassin
- 8 (88.9%)
Total Members Voted: 9


Feragho wins by a landslide. Or a cliffslide.
Now vote.

Sawney Rath was a very good dad, methinks. He was super good to Tagg.

[The Skarzs]

I liked Sawney. As far as we know, he was more interested in staying above the other vagabonds than trying to be evil, and while Tagg certainly didn't appreciate him much by the time he left, Sawney was always reasonable with him. He wanted to make him the perfect Taggerung, and he would have succeeded and probably made an awesome mentor to the Taggerung if it wasn't for those pesky otter genes. . .

[Ashleg]

Yeah, and Sawney wasn't biases towards Tagg at all for being an otter.

[The Skarzs]

An interesting relationship. It seems that vermin were almost more lenient towards good beasts than vice versa.

Someone chose Riggu. Why is that?

[Wylder Treejumper]

I think that's a bit of a tenuous position, Skarzs. Sawney hadn't any qualms about killing Deyna's father. Now, I do think Sawney came to care about Tagg, but the original intent was simply a bid to secure power for the Juskarath.


He's undoubtedly a much better father than Riggu Felis. However, Riggu Felis also had messed-up kids.

[Jetthebinturong]

That's not the point. Sawney didn't kill Deyna's father because he was an otter, he killed him because he was the father of the Taggerung and Sawney wanted the Taggerung. Vermin don't tend to discriminate between killing goodbeasts and other vermin, they're just destructive in general. The Juska clans less so than other vermin hordes in the series.

[Wylder Treejumper]

Right. And the woodlanders weren't destructive. Except to the vermin.


Because of, I don't know, maybe the fact that literally every single vermin except like two will try to murder your family and steal your stuff?

[Ashleg]

The Gnoffelins and Pygmy shrews and those squirrels in MTW (actual reoccurring groups save for one) as well as multiple hedgehogs, shrews, and voles throughout the series were equally destructive.

And I'm pretty sure there were instances in the Rogue Crew and other books where vermin are hunting a bird or sommat FOR FOOD, because, y'know, that's what they EAT and all, and Woodlanders stopped them because goodness forbid somebeast eat a chicken sandwhich.

Of course the bird helps them later an' whatnot. But they weren't friends prior. So in a way they're beating somebeast up for trying to not die--they just stole his food.

[Wylder Treejumper]

I, for one, can't ever recall any woodlander assaulting vermin for the sole reason that they were hunting birds. Criticize them, perhaps, but attack or interfere? I ran a cursory check through The Rogue Crew, and I saw no such event there. Cite me your example if I'm wrong, but I'm 95% sure that never happened.

As for the other woodlanders you mention, it is important to note that they were the exception to the rule. The pygmy shrews were slavers, and obnoxious, but they were hardly woodlanders in any proper sense of the word. The Gonfelins were not destructive; they stole things from vermin mostly, but had a sort of "thieves code of honor," if you will. Furthermore, it says they joined the Abbey and completely gave up thievery, as well. Finally, the Gawetrybe: let's just say I was totally in for them being devoured by the Warden, and leave it at that.

Other than those, I can only think of Yoofus Lightpaw, Tugga Bruster, some voles (who are really in a sort of grey area as being woodlanders or vermin), and Aggril and whoever that crazy bee lady was. Yoofus really should have been punished somehow, but he wasn't vicious. We know how Tugga Bruster ended up. The voles mostly were killed by vermin. The two hedgehogs were insane.

I fail to see any meaningful comparison between vermin who could basically be guaranteed murderers, and the occasional woodlander who might be unscrupulous or insane, but rarely murderous.

[Jetthebinturong]

I disagree. Most horde members in the books flee after their leaders are killed, which essentially proves that they're only in it out of fear of their leaders, the first book even specifically mentions that Cluny pressganged people into joining him, and when they refused, he destroyed their homes. However, in later books of the series, the woodlanders are okay with the wholesale slaughter of vermin.

[Wylder Treejumper]

True. But almost inevitably, you find that they simply create smaller raiding groups that, while they are less dangerous, are no less murderous. It's not that the vermin are only evil because they are being compelled to be evil, it is that they are cowardly. Their leaders are dead, so they see no use in continuing what is obviously a hopeless prospect of assaulting a superior force, and retreat. That's not a lack of viciousness, it's self-preservation. The only vermin that we ever see actually give up a life of villainy are those of Castle Marl. In fact, usually, when the hero lets vermin go, they usually come back and attack the hero (or someone the hero cares about). See numerous books for this. Off the top of my head, The Long Patrol is a good example.

Actually, I have a fanfic in production where the water rats of Castle Marl come to Redwall and face discrimination because of the fact that they are vermin, when they are in fact more peaceful than the Redwallers themselves. It's an interesting concept.

[Ashleg]

I swear the thing about the bird. Let me try to find that.

The Rogue Crew were also murderers. Just because they were only after vermin doesn't mean they weren't. They sing heckin' songs about it fer goodness' sake.

[Wylder Treejumper]

Well, if we agree on the premise that essentially all vermin are murderers, and note that this is an era with no judicial system, the Rogue Crew is essentially a group of vigilantes. Not that I like the Rogue Crew, their book was actually my least favorite of the whole series, but killing murderers is technically a form of extrajudicial justice. And singing songs about blood and death is rather reprehensible, but if their singing is what you take issue with, that's an entirely different issue.

[Ashleg]

I'm saying that they're no higher up than the vermin who do murder. And more are thieves than murderers. As you said there are a ton of Woodlander thieves.

As Jet said, most join/stay in hordes out of fear.

[Wylder Treejumper]

If I recall correctly, they began the Rogue Crew because vermin murdered their families. And, throughout the series, vermin have proven that often they steal, yes, but in concert with enslaving, torturing, and then murdering whoever they steal from. Rare indeed is a vermin who "just" steals.


I've already said, vermin join hordes because they think they can gain from their leader's conquest. They are held in line by that leader's discipline. When the leader goes, the vermin are defeated, and so they retreat, and create smaller raiding parties that nonetheless murder and kill whomever happens to fall into their path. This is seen throughout the series.