I only just Realized this!

[clunylooney]

I only just realized this today. In Taggerung, the seer Grissoul says that whomever kills sawney rath's killer will become the new taggerung. She is implying Deyna is the killer but as readers of Taggerung know, the real killer of sawney rath was antigra. Grissoul then sends Gruven Zann off with a band of juska vermin and Juskazann is left alone for a while. Grissoul is a seer, and even though she means deyna, she states out loud that whoever kills sawney rath's killer will become the new taggerung. Later on in the book, Ruggan Bor takes over the Juskazann and kills antigra for trying to take him over. This means that Ruggan Bor is the new taggerung! The funny part is, he later kills gruven zann, thinking he was the taggerung. But he already was the taggerung! I'm sorry if everyone already knew this, but I don't see anybody talking about it and I only realized this today.

[Captain Tammo]

Oh hey that's kind of clever! It's been about a year since I last re-read Taggerung and I loved the tradition that the Juskazann put into their own kind of culture. Something like the Taggerung fits so well given the already warlike mentality of vermin in the series.

So then technically the Taggerung gene could have been passed down more vermin generations since we don't see Ruggan Bor die by the end. Thoughts?

[Sebias of Redwall]

Oh, wow! I never realized this!

So then technically the Taggerung gene could have been passed down more vermin generations since we don't see Ruggan Bor die by the end. Thoughts?

Huh. That's a cool idea.

[shisteer of nothing much]

I don't think being Taggerung is a gene. Sawney's father was Taggerung, but he wasn't. It didn't seem much of a surprise that he wasn't either.

[The Grey Coincidence]

I see it as more of a mystical thing as opposed to it being passed down by bloodline-but I think Tammo meant it more like... vermin X kills Ruggan Bor, and then is killed by vermin z etc etc. There are a number of interesting things I think are worth discussing if this is the right topic for it- is a Taggerung really a mystical warrior or is it more of a placebo? That *because* everyone expects them to be a warrior, and they get the best training and everything, that they end up as good as they are? Can any animal be born a Taggerung? Is it always a special birthmark that defines them? Are there still Taggerungs running around Mossflower?

[Kade Rivok]

Mmm, I don't think it was a placebo, per say.  Grissoul's predictions as a seer telling of Deyna were quite accurate, after all, which makes me think there was more to it than nothing.  As for the rest of your questions, the obvious (and lame) answer is that we don't have nearly enough information on the subject to be able to say one way or another.  Though, based off the fact that an otter could be the Taggerung, that implies that it doesn't have to be a vermin and could be any creature.

I only just realized this today. In Taggerung, the seer Grissoul says that whomever kills sawney rath's killer will become the new taggerung. She is implying Deyna is the killer but as readers of Taggerung know, the real killer of sawney rath was antigra. Grissoul then sends Gruven Zann off with a band of juska vermin and Juskazann is left alone for a while. Grissoul is a seer, and even though she means deyna, she states out loud that whoever kills sawney rath's killer will become the new taggerung. Later on in the book, Ruggan Bor takes over the Juskazann and kills antigra for trying to take him over. This means that Ruggan Bor is the new taggerung! The funny part is, he later kills gruven zann, thinking he was the taggerung. But he already was the taggerung! I'm sorry if everyone already knew this, but I don't see anybody talking about it and I only realized this today.

That's an interesting theory.  It's been a minute since I read Taggerung, so when Grissoul says that though, is that one of the times where she's making an actual prediction, or just saying something to make the Juska happy and keep the peace?  I don't think Ruggan could have been the Taggerung at that time, because Tagg/Deyna was still alive, and he was the Taggerung.  Unless there could be two Taggerungs, though, and I can't remember anything in the book that says one way or the other.

That being said, the Redwall wiki agrees with you and actually says the same thing, though I'm loathe to agree with it since we don't have nearly enough information to confirm.  *Shrugs.* That's just me, though 

[clunylooney]

I only just realized this today. In Taggerung, the seer Grissoul says that whomever kills sawney rath's killer will become the new taggerung. She is implying Deyna is the killer but as readers of Taggerung know, the real killer of sawney rath was antigra. Grissoul then sends Gruven Zann off with a band of juska vermin and Juskazann is left alone for a while. Grissoul is a seer, and even though she means deyna, she states out loud that whoever kills sawney rath's killer will become the new taggerung. Later on in the book, Ruggan Bor takes over the Juskazann and kills antigra for trying to take him over. This means that Ruggan Bor is the new taggerung! The funny part is, he later kills gruven zann, thinking he was the taggerung. But he already was the taggerung! I'm sorry if everyone already knew this, but I don't see anybody talking about it and I only realized this today.

That's an interesting theory.  It's been a minute since I read Taggerung, so when Grissoul says that though, is that one of the times where she's making an actual prediction, or just saying something to make the Juska happy and keep the peace?  I don't think Ruggan could have been the Taggerung at that time, because Tagg/Deyna was still alive, and he was the Taggerung.  Unless there could be two Taggerungs, though, and I can't remember anything in the book that says one way or the other.

That being said, the Redwall wiki agrees with you and actually says the same thing, though I'm loathe to agree with it since we don't have nearly enough information to confirm.  *Shrugs.* That's just me, though 

I think that even though Grissoul might have said that to please antigra, when seers make prophecies or things like that, they should be taken seriously.

[LordTBT]

Indeed. This is covered here: https://redwall.fandom.com/wiki/Taggerung

[Ripred the Gnawer]

Yeah, that's kinda cool to know!

[Flib Bigboat]

I see it as more of a mystical thing as opposed to it being passed down by bloodline-but I think Tammo meant it more like... vermin X kills Ruggan Bor, and then is killed by vermin z etc etc. There are a number of interesting things I think are worth discussing if this is the right topic for it- is a Taggerung really a mystical warrior or is it more of a placebo? That *because* everyone expects them to be a warrior, and they get the best training and everything, that they end up as good as they are? Can any animal be born a Taggerung? Is it always a special birthmark that defines them? Are there still Taggerungs running around Mossflower?

I think it's kinda like the vermin's version of a Redwall warrior.

[Ripred the Gnawer]

I was just wondering, could badger lords be Taggerungs?

[Booklover]

Yes. Any animal can, I think, though they seemed to tend to be vermin.