Lettuche gathering place

[Kade Rivok]

Outside of Christianity (or, more generalized, religious beliefs), good is subjective.  It's better to describe it as something that they enjoy.

[Ally046]

Well, in today's society there is the idea to be considered of overall morality instead of a religious belief. The idea that we should we all work to help one another and better the universe one small decision at a time, that we might all live better and better. This overall morality can be used in place of religious guidance in a persons division of right and wrong, or good and bad.

However, this leads to the question of how the system of morality works, the driving forces, the "why". People have spread the idea since the beginnings of connected society, that it is somehow "right" to help others, and it "feels good". And, if you help others, that they may also help you in your times of need, and so is a system of animal like instinctual survival thinking. And I believe this is the first solid piece contributing to morality.

[Kade Rivok]

Once again, though, outside of religious beliefs, morality is nothing but a concept and is entirely subjective.  Just because one person thinks something is good (like helping somebody), that doesn't mean other people will think it's a good thing.  Or, perhaps they'll think that it's only acceptable under certain circumstances, or only with the right people.

It's all a game of make-believe that people play, and when different people have different ideas of what "right" is, then that is when conflicts occur.  Not only for that reason, of course, but it happens.  Why is it "right" to help someone?  Why does their life matter?  You can believe that it's right and that someone's life matters, but in the end it simply comes down to that just being what you think, not because it's actually so.  And, if morality is simply an act of survival, then that's even more of a joke.  It isn't moral, it's just beneficial. 

No, without Christianity, morality is just a lie people tell themselves.

In my opinion

[Booklover]

I once heard 'moral' described as anything that reduces suffering and 'immoral' described as anything that increases suffering. I don't think that that explanation is perfect – for example, if you thought that killing someone would overall decrease their suffering, that doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing to do (of course, when you take into account that it would cause suffering for their friends and relatives, then by those definitions in a lot of cases it would be considered morally wrong).

But in Christianity (as well as some other religions, but not all) the incentive to do good is to get into heaven. There's a whole philosophical debate on whether it counts as doing good when there's an ulterior motive. However, Christians (and people from other religions or no religion) will often do good things without ever considering that or anything relating to religion. Yet if that's still good, surely religion is unnecessary for that? People do good because they think it's the right thing to do, whether religious or not.

And is morality that different within religious beliefs? On almost every moral debate (the only real exceptions being ones that are considered morally wrong by practically everybody, whether religious or not) there are religious people on both sides. Conflicts occur within Christianity on moral issues, so what makes Christianity any different? Apart from being influenced by the Bible and what I mentioned earlier about different motives, there really isn't anything.

[Kade Rivok]

There's a big difference, but first, let me say that you don't do good works to get into Heaven.  That is something that so many people get confused on.  We can't do anything to get ourselves into heaven.  The reason Christians make a big deal out of it is because we are commanded to follow the commands given to us by God.  They don't get us into Heaven, but they are usually the signs of someone that is following Jesus.

Matthew 7:20 - Thus, you will recognize them by their fruits.

And now we get to my point.  In Christianity, morality is created by God and is given to us.  Morality is made up of hard and fast rules created by the maker of everything.  We may have a hard time understanding some of them, and an even harder time following some of them, but they are just as real as the computer I'm using to type this message.

Outside of Christianity (or religion in general, whatever), they aren't real.  They are amorphous thoughts and feelings and they change from person to person, specifically because they are nothing but a lightly defined concept.

[Flib Bigboat]

Well, in today's society there is the idea to be considered of overall morality instead of a religious belief. The idea that we should we all work to help one another and better the universe one small decision at a time, that we might all live better and better. This overall morality can be used in place of religious guidance in a persons division of right and wrong, or good and bad.

That might not really work out, though, because people tend to have different views of what is right and what is wrong.

[Ally046]

What do you mean it might not work out?

[Kade Rivok]

For instance, people can and do have differing ideas on what it means to better the universe.  Right or wrong, good or bad, it's all subjective.

Now, obviously, people can work together for the most part, otherwise we wouldn't have society, but that's because, in society, governments act as "gods", so to speak, and enforce what they believe should be the rules regarding what is right and what is wrong.  And because of their power, those that live under that government generally fall into line.

At that point, though, we start looking at the same problem on a macro level.  Different governments across the world with differing ideas on what is right and what is wrong, thus leading to contention and conflict.  And, like I said before, I'm very aware that conflicts don't just occur because of these ideas, but it does happen.

[Ally046]

Welcome to red wall abbey forum, where questions like this:

Why do you want to et meh?

Turn into full-out philosophical convos like dis:

Well, in today's society there is the idea to be considered of overall morality instead of a religious belief. The idea that we should we all work to help one another and better the universe one small decision at a time, that we might all live better and better. This overall morality can be used in place of religious guidance in a persons division of right and wrong, or good and bad.

However, this leads to the question of how the system of morality works, the driving forces, the "why". People have spread the idea since the beginnings of connected society, that it is somehow "right" to help others, and it "feels good". And, if you help others, that they may also help you in your times of need, and so is a system of animal like instinctual survival thinking. And I believe this is the first solid piece contributing to morality.

Once again, though, outside of religious beliefs, morality is nothing but a concept and is entirely subjective.  Just because one person thinks something is good (like helping somebody), that doesn't mean other people will think it's a good thing.  Or, perhaps they'll think that it's only acceptable under certain circumstances, or only with the right people.

It's all a game of make-believe that people play, and when different people have different ideas of what "right" is, then that is when conflicts occur.  Not only for that reason, of course, but it happens.  Why is it "right" to help someone?  Why does their life matter?  You can believe that it's right and that someone's life matters, but in the end it simply comes down to that just being what you think, not because it's actually so.  And, if morality is simply an act of survival, then that's even more of a joke.  It isn't moral, it's just beneficial. 

No, without Christianity, morality is just a lie people tell themselves.

In my opinion

I once heard 'moral' described as anything that reduces suffering and 'immoral' described as anything that increases suffering. I don't think that that explanation is perfect – for example, if you thought that killing someone would overall decrease their suffering, that doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing to do (of course, when you take into account that it would cause suffering for their friends and relatives, then by those definitions in a lot of cases it would be considered morally wrong).

But in Christianity (as well as some other religions, but not all) the incentive to do good is to get into heaven. There's a whole philosophical debate on whether it counts as doing good when there's an ulterior motive. However, Christians (and people from other religions or no religion) will often do good things without ever considering that or anything relating to religion. Yet if that's still good, surely religion is unnecessary for that? People do good because they think it's the right thing to do, whether religious or not.

And is morality that different within religious beliefs? On almost every moral debate (the only real exceptions being ones that are considered morally wrong by practically everybody, whether religious or not) there are religious people on both sides. Conflicts occur within Christianity on moral issues, so what makes Christianity any different? Apart from being influenced by the Bible and what I mentioned earlier about different motives, there really isn't anything.

There's a big difference, but first, let me say that you don't do good works to get into Heaven.  That is something that so many people get confused on.  We can't do anything to get ourselves into heaven.  The reason Christians make a big deal out of it is because we are commanded to follow the commands given to us by God.  They don't get us into Heaven, but they are usually the signs of someone that is following Jesus.

Matthew 7:20 - Thus, you will recognize them by their fruits.

And now we get to my point.  In Christianity, morality is created by God and is given to us.  Morality is made up of hard and fast rules created by the maker of everything.  We may have a hard time understanding some of them, and an even harder time following some of them, but they are just as real as the computer I'm using to type this message.

Outside of Christianity (or religion in general, whatever), they aren't real.  They are amorphous thoughts and feelings and they change from person to person, specifically because they are nothing but a lightly defined concept.

[Kade Rivok]

It is pretty humorous that that is what spawned this discussion.

[Flib Bigboat]

  It was a wonderful and surprisingly logical discussion, though.

[Kade Rivok]

The best kind, really

[Booklover]

There's a big difference, but first, let me say that you don't do good works to get into Heaven.  That is something that so many people get confused on.  We can't do anything to get ourselves into heaven.  The reason Christians make a big deal out of it is because we are commanded to follow the commands given to us by God.  They don't get us into Heaven, but they are usually the signs of someone that is following Jesus.

Matthew 7:20 - Thus, you will recognize them by their fruits.

And now we get to my point.  In Christianity, morality is created by God and is given to us.  Morality is made up of hard and fast rules created by the maker of everything.  We may have a hard time understanding some of them, and an even harder time following some of them, but they are just as real as the computer I'm using to type this message.

Outside of Christianity (or religion in general, whatever), they aren't real.  They are amorphous thoughts and feelings and they change from person to person, specifically because they are nothing but a lightly defined concept.

About the difference or lack of such i was referring to conflicts over different ideas of 'right' and 'wrong' which happens within or between religions as well as outside of them.

Okay, I stand corrected (although I would also like to point out the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats does suggest that, although I do know that at other points (for example, when Jesus said 'I am the way, the truth and the life. No one gets to the Father except through me')). Yet that motivation is still, to an extent the reason.

On the subject of morality being given to us by God, many other religions would say something similar about theirs, and many non-Christians would say that the Bible is not the word of God. Hard and fast perhaps in that it's written down and is standardised across the world and will not change (the teachings of religious leaders can, however). I don't think that they should be followed blindly. There needs to be some understanding of them first, and the relevance to modern life, which may not always be instantly clear.

What happens when people believe that they are unequivocally in the right and are unafraid of consequences (which religion is a common reason for, but not the only one), there are no limits to what they will do. This is, in my experience, both the best and worst parts of Christianity, and probably other religions as well. The best, because it means people will not be afraid to do what is (or what they believe) is right. The worst because it means people will use religion (or other strong beliefs) as an excuse to do evil. This happens at both a small level, with individual people, and at a wider level, with entire societies who will hold fast to a set of beliefs no matter what.

However, that does not mean that the alternative – a more flexible, adaptable set of beliefs, whether religiously influenced or not (though morality almost everywhere is influenced indirectly by religions which have shaped societies for centuries) is just 'a lie people tell themselves' or at least no more so than stricter morality. It's hard to say which is better (probably depends entirely on the exact morals or situation). Perhaps both of their strengths are also their flaws (respectively, having no limits and being flexible).

(I would write more, but I have to go now.)

[Ally046]

Oh?

[Kade Rivok]

Spoiler

There's a big difference, but first, let me say that you don't do good works to get into Heaven.  That is something that so many people get confused on.  We can't do anything to get ourselves into heaven.  The reason Christians make a big deal out of it is because we are commanded to follow the commands given to us by God.  They don't get us into Heaven, but they are usually the signs of someone that is following Jesus.

Matthew 7:20 - Thus, you will recognize them by their fruits.

And now we get to my point.  In Christianity, morality is created by God and is given to us.  Morality is made up of hard and fast rules created by the maker of everything.  We may have a hard time understanding some of them, and an even harder time following some of them, but they are just as real as the computer I'm using to type this message.

Outside of Christianity (or religion in general, whatever), they aren't real.  They are amorphous thoughts and feelings and they change from person to person, specifically because they are nothing but a lightly defined concept.

About the difference or lack of such i was referring to conflicts over different ideas of 'right' and 'wrong' which happens within or between religions as well as outside of them.

Okay, I stand corrected (although I would also like to point out the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats does suggest that, although I do know that at other points (for example, when Jesus said 'I am the way, the truth and the life. No one gets to the Father except through me')). Yet that motivation is still, to an extent the reason.

On the subject of morality being given to us by God, many other religions would say something similar about theirs, and many non-Christians would say that the Bible is not the word of God. Hard and fast perhaps in that it's written down and is standardised across the world and will not change (the teachings of religious leaders can, however). I don't think that they should be followed blindly. There needs to be some understanding of them first, and the relevance to modern life, which may not always be instantly clear.

What happens when people believe that they are unequivocally in the right and are unafraid of consequences (which religion is a common reason for, but not the only one), there are no limits to what they will do. This is, in my experience, both the best and worst parts of Christianity, and probably other religions as well. The best, because it means people will not be afraid to do what is (or what they believe) is right. The worst because it means people will use religion (or other strong beliefs) as an excuse to do evil. This happens at both a small level, with individual people, and at a wider level, with entire societies who will hold fast to a set of beliefs no matter what.

However, that does not mean that the alternative – a more flexible, adaptable set of beliefs, whether religiously influenced or not (though morality almost everywhere is influenced indirectly by religions which have shaped societies for centuries) is just 'a lie people tell themselves' or at least no more so than stricter morality. It's hard to say which is better (probably depends entirely on the exact morals or situation). Perhaps both of their strengths are also their flaws (respectively, having no limits and being flexible).

(I would write more, but I have to go now.)

[close]

We are given the Holy Spirit so that we may discern.  Part of that comes into play regarding that parable.  In multiple places in the Bible, it is stated that:

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

And to reiterate for the sake of my point:

Matthew 7:20 - Thus, you will recognize them by their fruits.

And so, with this truth in mind, you look at this parable.  The sheep are righteous and saved, as shown by their actions.  Their fruit.  The goats are not saved, as shown by the fruit they don't bare.  The actions don't save them, but they point towards the truth of whether the person is or isn't saved.  And, in the end, it is something only God knows.  The King, if you will.

Moving from there, I say hard and fast because, as a Christian, the word of God is hard and fast.  And the Bible is the word of God.  Examples of Christianity being misused in the past and present are exactly that, misuse.  And examples of people spreading hate and prejudice by using it as an excuse are the actions of those that most likely aren't actually followers of Christ.  We are given rules to follow, and we know that God will judge us in the end, but we aren't ordered to hate or attack or kill those that are in sin.  We are ordered to help them, to tell them the truth that is given to us by God so that they may be able to accept him.

That being said, any sort of power will inevitably lead to misuse, so it makes sense that it would happen here as well.

And to your point of following blindly, once again, the Holy Spirit was given to us so that we may discern these things.  So, I agree with your point that "There needs to be some understanding of them first, and the relevance to modern life, which may not always be instantly clear."  On the flipside though, after discernment occurs, we obey.

In the end, it isn't a matter of whether we consider it better or worse.  As a Christian, this simply is.  Anything else is people trying to create their own rules, their own morality.  And, honestly, if you aren't religious, that's all that you can do.