What if Rose had lived?

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

Due to increasing aggravation, this topic will be locked for the next 24 hours. After that, hopefully attitudes will cool and offtopicness will die off.

[Romsca]

It's unlocked now! 

[Dannflower Reguba]

lol, it was unlocked a LONG time ago.  ... I think.... No more off-topic posts please. You guys hate it when we do that, so do do it to us.

[Leatho Shellhound]

What if she lived and merried some one else?

[Dannflower Reguba]

What if she lived and merried some one else?

That would be the worst thing ever in Redwall.... Worse than Clkuny the Scourge.

[321tumbler]

She could have gotten amnesia (like alot of fanfics) and turned evil!

[Leatho Shellhound]

What about Aubretia, she looked like Rose.

[WoodenSpoon]

    Aubretia was Brome's descendant, a distant niece of Rose. That explains the resemblance. So umm... yeah.

  I am sorry that it's so long. It seems to be a trend in my posts... I try to keep them organized.

Coma Theory
   The possibility of Roses survival got me curious, so I pulled out my copy of Martin the Warrior and started rereading the part where she died. One thing that got my attention was that Rose wasn't buried at the end. Brome planned to take her body back to Noonvale, and bury her there. Martin left before they reached Noonvale. This lent some credence to the coma theory. What if, after they reached home, they discovered she wasn't dead. Perhaps she searched for Martin, but was never able to find him. (I believe some of you said that maybe she did find him. Then why didn't they get married? Why wasn't she ever mentioned in Redwall records? Just some things to consider.)

   I must play devil's advocate. In the epilogue, it states that Grumm planted a rose on Rose's grave. She was, indeed, buried in Noonvale. Now, you could argue that she died of another cause, not her head trauma. In that case, why would Aubretia deliberately present it as if Rose had been killed by Badrang?  The only reason I can think of is that there was some horrible tragedy that made it less painful to end the story there. Perhaps Rose suffered insanity because of her trauma, and ended her days a shadow of her former self.

   One more thought on the coma theory before I move on, what if Rose survived, unknown to all her loved ones? What if Brome and the others where attacked by some vermin  on their way home. They escape, but are forced to abandon Rose. A "dead mousers" isn't much interest to the savages, so they leave her and go off to attack someone else.

   Rose is found by a hermit who lives in the area. He treats her, and she eventually recovers conciseness. Here's the kicker, she remembers nothing. She starts a new life, helps to fend off the vermin tribe, and maybe even marries. Aside from brief flashes, her old life is forgotten. Her grave at Noonvale is nothing but a memorial.

  Of course, this theory is mere speculation. A little too out there to be given true credence. EDIT I am here referring to to my amnesia scenario, not the coma theory in general.

Book AU
    So much for trying to accommodate the book. Let's take things a step forward, and say that Rose was never hit against the wall. To prevent this, I am giving her an injury early on in the battle. Serious enough to get her out of the action, but not fatal. (Grumm may die because of this. I could be mistaken, but I believe that Rose was defending him when she received her injury. I know, I am heartless. I just prefer battles in which the good guys pay for their victory. War always has a price.)

  Oh! Question. If Rose survived, is there a chance Martin would've spared Badrang? I know he was a terrible vermin, but I've always hated the Redwall heroes vengeful streak. If Martin wasn't so stricken with grief, perhaps he could've seen his foe was beaten.

  Regardless, Rose and Martin return to Noonvale, and marry.

  A happy ending! Wonderful. Only... what happens to Mossflower?

  Some of you have claimed that even if Rose had survived, Martin could've traveled with her and reached Mossflower. I have one objection to this. What would Rose she loved Noonvale dearly, and I propose that she wouldn't leave it without a good reason. "What about being with Martin?" you may ask. "If he wanted to travel, wouldn't she go with him?"

    I disagree with the view that Martin is a wandering warrior, for reasons already stated by other users. However, even assuming he had an itchy travel foot, I think he'd be willing to give it up to stay in Noonvale with Rose. He didn't have the same love for travel that she did for her home. I like to think he would've become the chieftain of Noonvale.

Major Spoilers for Mossflower

   And now, the flip-side of the situation. Corim. Everyone seems to assume that if Martin hadn't shown up, Tsarmina would've won. I don't know about this. How crucial was Martin to Corim's victory? Now, I don't want to discredit Martin in any way, but I think they could've managed without him.  

    In the first half of the book, Martin's actions were minimal. He did seem to inspire the woodlanders, including Ferdy and Coggs. (My sister suggested that if Martin never showed up, the young hedgehogs would never be captured. Does this mean that the woodlanders wouldn't have hired Chubb? And poor Gingivere...)

    In the end, he returns with a ship full of reinforcements. They use the ship to dam the river, TB makes catapult things, and the flooding is sped up.

   Of course, Bella wasn't exactly sitting on her paws before Martin came back. She had a plan, and a pretty good one. She was going to take the woodlanders and leave, waiting for Kotir to flood on it's own. Even if he never returned, they could've made it.

   Naturally, Martin's absence and Rose's survival could prompt any number of changes. Bella might decide to find her father herself. Gnoff could be killed if he stayed in Mossflower. Without his guidance, Redwall could fall if it was founded at all. It would unravel the whole book, the entire series.

    To top all that gobble-ly gook up, here are some basic plot ideas for a universe where Rose does survive. (Yes, I did remember the topic.)

   Martin stays in Noonvale. Corim loses Mossflower. Woodlanders stay as slaves under Tsarmina.
     
   Martin stays in Noonvale. Corim wins Mossflower by some other means. They need a new guy for their tapestry.
     
   Martin stays in Noonvale. Corim loses Mossflower. They escape, and travel south. They end up at Martin and Rose's doorstep.    
     
   There is a disaster at Noonvale, Rose and Martin are forced to lead their tribe north. They end up in  Mossflower Country. After a conflict with Kotir, they are taken in by Corim. Martin becomes one of its leaders.    

   ... Do I talk too much?

[Mattio]

no not at all great theroies but I have one question if Martin wasn't there Ferdy and Coggs might not have gotten captured so, they wouldn't meet Gingivere which ruins the choice of the woodlanders running away to Gingivere and Sandigomm's farm

[Dannflower Reguba]

lol, they wouldn't need to. 

BTW, I'm pretty sure they never mentioned how OLD Grumm was when he laid the Rose, so really that could have been YEARS later... A little out there, I know, but ... This death is just as much out there in my opinion.

[WoodenSpoon]

no not at all great theroies but I have one question if Martin wasn't there Ferdy and Coggs might not have gotten captured so, they wouldn't meet Gingivere which ruins the choice of the woodlanders running away to Gingivere and Sandigomm's farm

    Thanks, Mattio. Yes, that did occur to me. Still, they could've gone somewhere else. It would be a little tenser, since they wouldn't have certain sanctuary, but they are a hardy bunch. One thing, does anyone know any other valuable information the woodlanders would be deprived of if they didn't hire Chubb?

BTW, I'm pretty sure they never mentioned how OLD Grumm was when he laid the Rose, so really that could have been YEARS later... A little out there, I know, but ... This death is just as much out there in my opinion.

   I addressed that in my massive wall of text up there. My problem with that theory is the storytellers present it as if Rose had died from her wounds. Why wouldn't they say something like, "Miraculously, my great-great ect. aunt wasn't dead. She recovered, led a long life, then died. That's when Grumm placed the rose on her grave." instead of being so misleading?

   Obviously, the quote above is a paraphrase, but I still feel they would include that important detail, unless they had a reason to deceive the woodlanders, or were ignorant themselves. Why would they be ignorant? This implies their ancestors had a reason for clouding things up, which says nothing good for Rose.

    Dann, pardon my ignorance, but I am afraid I don't understand what you mean by "This death is just as much out there in my opinion."    Would you mind explaining? Sorry... I feel awkward.

[Leatho Shellhound]

I believe Laterose died by being throne against the wall and brakeing her neck. BJ kinda brought her back with Aubretia.

[Tam and Martin]

I wish they mentioned more about Aubretia.

[Dannflower Reguba]

OH MY GOSH YOU GUYS! I apologize for yelling, but this topic is called WHAT IF for a reason! Why can't we get this obvious point across! This is not for debate over whether or not she died, but discussing it after the assuption that she's ALIVE. Please cut out the off-topicness, if you're not going to post on topic, than don't post at all!

[rachel25]

http://[url=http://martinwouldhavenotgonetomossflowerandthewildcatwouldstillbealive >:(]martinwouldhavenotgonetomossflowerandthewildcatwouldstillbealive >:([/url]AND REDWALL WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN BUILT