Veil's Personality

[Lutra]

Yup...another Veil topic.  This time, I'd like to look at Veil's personality.  It is said that a person is a product of the environment in which they were raised and grew up in.  A person is also shaped by the environment around them as they make decisions about their lives.  As such, if we apply both theories of how the environment affects the growth of an individual, then Veil as a character is flawed, given his story in Outcast of Redwall.

Mr. Jacques has said that the "good beasts will always be good, and the baddies will always be bad".  At least that is true until he created Veil Sixclaw--a character who tests this theory of Redwall speciesism.  Veil was found as a babe outside of Redwall and reared by the good folk of the abbey.  We can conclude through the story, that Veil has grown from a ferretbabe to a young adult, probably of the age of Matthias when he was introduced in Redwall.  All those seasons being raised by beasts of good nature, should in theory have rubbed off on Veil because that is the way of the abbey.  Veil did not see any alternative behaviors.  Yes, as a dibbun he may have been naughty (as all dibbuns are from time to time), but dibbuns mature through learning because the environment offers them no other option.  It is the way of the abbey.  With no alternative behaviors to witness in the abbey, why is it then that Veil is so evil?  "Baddies will always be baddies" doesn't provide much insight when behaviorists say otherwise given the circumstances that Veil has grown up in.  He should be good because he had no opportunity to learn any other ways from the "baddies" of the Redwall universe.

Mr. Jacques said "the jury is out" on whether Veil dies a goodbeas, saving Bryony and never gave a direct explanation on which it was meant to be.  I firmly say Veil dies a goodbeast, showing that despite the bad behavior, the environment in which he was raised does play an effect on the ending.  Had Veil not learned the mannerisms of the abbey, he wouldn't have cared about Bryony and her safety.  So it takes the whole novel for the good to shine through, that honestly should have always been present.

Veil is a tough cookie to crack on why the character was written the way he was.  It also makes him one of the most interesting characters in the entire series.

Thoughts?

[Redwallfan7]

I agree

[MatthiasMan]

Yeah, he was almost two faceted.

[Skipper]

Well it was clear he was alot like his fathr but i belive the only reason he saved Bryony is because his mother appeared to be kind before she died, but Veil was definately how I imagine Swarrt as a babe but slightly different because of the different places where they were brought up.

[Dannflower Reguba]

Too bad Veil didn't live so he could show he had turned good to all of those who think he was still evil BECAUSE he pushed Bryony..... How does that NOT prove he had a good heart in him in the end!!!??? ?? ?

[Lutra]

^ There'd be a good ferret within Redwall.....that can't happen.  The Redwall mice, squirrels, otters, and badgers would not have it so. [/sarcasm]

I would be willing to bet if you ask most Redwall fans about Veil, they would be in agreement that Veil died a good beast.  It still doesn't explain how I said in my first post that Veil wasn't "good" from the start given that is the only environment he'd have known.  Where did he pick up on the bad traits while living in the abbey walls? 

[psybox]

bad genetic material, i guess?  same reason taggerung wasn't a vermin. apples never fall far from the tree, as they say.

[Dannflower Reguba]

Veil had been exsposed to evil when he was VERY young, that's when a person (or creature) is MOST impressianable

[Flandor]

That is a good point.  If babies are not socialized properly or treated well this can affect them later in life.  Although we can't say for sure whether Bluefen was a good mother or not, we simply don't know.

[Dannflower Reguba]

She died, remember? Swart had some sway over how Veil grew up.

[Redwallfan7]

I know this has nothing to do with the discussion, but I really love the t.v show Once Upon a Time on ABC, because I like that both that and Redwall always have me asking questions. I like it when writers of media make you really think deeper about what's going on with the characters, it makes it more interesting.

[Dannflower Reguba]

Shouldn't that be a discusion about the T.V series?

[Redwallfan7]

What do you mean 

[Dannflower Reguba]

I know this has nothing to do with the discussion, but I really love the t.v show Once Upon a Time on ABC, because I like that both that and Redwall always have me asking questions. I like it when writers of media make you really think deeper about what's going on with the characters, it makes it more interesting.

That has absolutely NOTHING to do with this conversation.

[Redwallfan7]

Yeah I know that's why I said that same thing in the start