Villains that weren't really villains

[Tiria Wildlough]

What do you think about those characters that were kind of neutral, but played a part in the story? Like Bluefen, Veil's mother, and that old rat or whatever he was in Taggerung who kidnapped the Dibbuns that fell from the walltops.
Please leave your opinion if you have one.

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

We can't come close to judging, or discerning, whether or not minor villains were very bad or not. They did, as a fact, hang out with massive cruel murdering hordes, so my guess is they weren't that good.

And the water rat in Taggerung, forget his name right now, kidnapped and was about to murder two dibbuns when he was stopped by Vallug and Eefera. He was a very bad beast

[James Gryphon]

We can't come close to judging, or discerning, whether or not minor villains were very bad or not. They did, as a fact, hang out with massive cruel murdering hordes, so my guess is they weren't that good.

Remember that many major hordes, like Swartt Sixclaw's, prohibited deserters, and were arranged so as to kill such as might try to leave, so that a lot of the time, a minor villain didn't really have a choice whether to leave or not... if they wanted to desert they would be killed, simple as that. Judging them by their deeds is one thing, but in this case I'm not sure it's fair to consider their company.

The fact is that a decent part of the time, when we do get to see minor villains, they're relatively unimposing figures, like Lousewort and Sneezewort, and I'm not sure you could fairly call those sorts of characters "evil". A fair number of hordebeasts we can see are pretty well fifty-fifty; they may be evil, they may qualify as gray. Consider the case of Blacktooth and Splitnose in Mossflower, who, while definitely expressing villainous tendencies, also display a softer side.

I would almost say that labeling Bluefen as gray might be harsh, considering that we never actually see her say anything, and she seems to behave nicely enough from the little we see.

Besides, if Veil had any good in him, well, he sure didn't get it from Swartt, and if genetics had anything to do with it, it had to have come from somewhere.

At the same time, though, there are plenty of minor villains that really are just as violent and murderous as their leaders, such as the ones in "Mariel of Redwall" and "Pearls of Lutra". I think that those are mostly corsairs, which may indicate an interesting trend, if sea-going vermin are on average more violent and aggressive than their land-going counterparts.

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

I think that those are mostly corsairs, which may indicate an interesting trend, if sea-going vermin are on average more violent and aggressive than their land-going counterparts.

Probably all that seaweed grog. xD

Most villains that deserted showed the following traits: Hatred, madness, arrogance and vile conduct. Also, many escapers (such as in Outcast of Redwall), left behind some. Such an act shows contempt, leaving a comrade to almost certain death by the villain leader (in Outcast of Redwall, Swarrt Sixclaw).

In the case of Blacktooth and Splitnose, they showed their "softer side" when threatened with death by each other's hand. How is that a soft side, willing to slay your own friend? They did, afterall, kill each other. After a fashion, anyway. Splitnose regretted it, and could be argued to have died as a result of killing his friend in his regret, but those were independent events.

[Wydran Riverpaw]

What about Romsca? She was a vermin but she did end up saving the Abbot.

[Osu]

What about Romsca? She was a vermin but she did end up saving the Abbot.

I agree, Romsca was definitely grey. She wasn't a good guy by any means, but there was more than blackness in her, too.

Excuse my interruption, guys - please continue with your thread. I am enjoying this immensely.

[Icefire]

I've always found those villains who end up living peaceful lives interesting. For example, in the Bellmaker there was the rat named Blaggut who ended up killing his master and building boats and things for the Abbey. He may have started off evil, but he sure ended good.

[sabretache5611]

I've always found those villains who end up living peaceful lives interesting. For example, in the Bellmaker there was the rat named Blaggut who ended up killing his master and building boats and things for the Abbey. He may have started off evil, but he sure ended good.

Agreed.  There was also a rat in Triss named...ARGH can't remember, he was the deaf one who ended up helping the good guys in the end. 

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

Grubbage! I loved that guy!

[sabretache5611]

Grubbage! I loved that guy!

OH YEAH GRUBBAGE!!!! TY.  HE WAS SO FUNNY!!!  

[sabretache5611]

We can't come close to judging, or discerning, whether or not minor villains were very bad or not. They did, as a fact, hang out with massive cruel murdering hordes, so my guess is they weren't that good.

Remember that many major hordes, like Swartt Sixclaw's, prohibited deserters, and were arranged so as to kill such as might try to leave, so that a lot of the time, a minor villain didn't really have a choice whether to leave or not... if they wanted to desert they would be killed, simple as that. Judging them by their deeds is one thing, but in this case I'm not sure it's fair to consider their company.

The fact is that a decent part of the time, when we do get to see minor villains, they're relatively unimposing figures, like Lousewort and Sneezewort, and I'm not sure you could fairly call those sorts of characters "evil". A fair number of hordebeasts we can see are pretty well fifty-fifty; they may be evil, they may qualify as gray. Consider the case of Blacktooth and Splitnose in Mossflower, who, while definitely expressing villainous tendencies, also display a softer side.

I would almost say that labeling Bluefen as gray might be harsh, considering that we never actually see her say anything, and she seems to behave nicely enough from the little we see.

Besides, if Veil had any good in him, well, he sure didn't get it from Swartt, and if genetics had anything to do with it, it had to have come from somewhere.

At the same time, though, there are plenty of minor villains that really are just as violent and murderous as their leaders, such as the ones in "Mariel of Redwall" and "Pearls of Lutra". I think that those are mostly corsairs, which may indicate an interesting trend, if sea-going vermin are on average more violent and aggressive than their land-going counterparts.

agreed.  im guessing Veil's good parts came from Byrony's teaching, nurture is an important factor in deciding a person's personality.  and it is mentioned in the books that sea-going vermin are on average more violent and agressive than their land going counterparts.  wait...where does that put the Rapscallions then?

[Tiria Wildlough]

I like Grubbage too. 

[DanielofRedwall]

I really liked it how Romsca and Blaggut showed some... concern, I guess, for the "good" characters. They were awesome.

[sabretache5611]

I really liked it how Romsca and Blaggut showed some... concern, I guess, for the "good" characters. They were awesome.

indeed.  grubbage was merely a comic relief.  romsca and blaggut were more solid rounded characters who became grey in the end.  blaggut actually may be good by end of bellmaker

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

Blaggut was good all along, it was just never shown until it was at all possible it could be shown. There was no way for him to demosnatrte himself as good, and thus gray, until the end of The Bellmaker. Same for Romsca, and Grubbage.