Bryony's Conclusion? (Outcast of Redwall; spoilers)

[Leatho Shellhound]

Well since Veil died he couldn't change, so Bryony lost all hope of making him a better beast.

[Ungatt Trunn]

Well since Veil died he couldn't change, so Bryony lost all hope of making him a better beast.

Well, yea. But that still dosen't mean that Veil had any good inside of him.

[Blazemane]

This whole issue still confuses me, too. But two quick thoughts:

1.) It's interesting to see how often Brian Jacques will present contrasting opinions right next to each other from separate, credible characters. So as much as I think Brian Jacques did like to write a rather clear-cut, black-and-white world, there were still these moments where he liked to leave the questions open for the reader.

This is one of the clearest examples, of course--and all the more fascinating since, as has been mentioned, both Bella and Bryony end up changing their (opposing) views here, (though, Taggerung_of_Redwall's idea that Bella was trying to get Bryony to admit her fullest feelings is making me think...). But then, for example, there's Martin's need to end Badrang's slavery contrasted with Urran Voh's pacifism. Urran Voh actually ends up being completely right about Rose, too. He was afraid the war would kill her, and that was exactly what happened.

But to speak even more directly about Brian Jacques leaving the question open, in the specific example of "was Veil good or not?" Brian Jacques does literally say in one of his Question and Answer sessions:

As to Veil and his final motives, I deliberately left that for the reader to decide. I have had many opinions and the jury is still out.

I could be reading this wrong, but it seems like, when he said "the jury is still out," he was still speaking for himself, too. He still wasn't sure.

So, Bryony's turnabout isn't a definitive statement about Veil's character--it's a reflection of her own character. But that, as I said, still confuses me. Why did she change her opinion? My guess for right now would be...

2.) I'm with Osu about Bryony needing Veil's death to come to the opinion she does in the end. To me, it seems like a sort of catharsis. His death shakes her, and she finally confronts everything. She wanted to defend him over and over again while he was alive. When it all finally comes to a head, and he dies, and he isn't really there to defend anymore, there may have been a lifetime of pent-up frustration for her to sort through.

And... maybe... I mean, this is a melodramatic thought and everything, but... in line with the idea of catharsis, what if Veil's sacrifice was too much for Bryony? I mean, what if, for Bryony, Veil's getting himself killed was the meanest thing he could do to her? Brian Jacques was a fan of opera, and there are these sorts of intense statements of love in that genre where people express separation as the ultimate state of torture.

Which leads to thought 2... er... part B. The last thing Bryony says to Veil is "Oh, Veil, my Veil! You saved me... Why?" If she really always believed he was always good, this shouldn't have confused her. So if this is confusion on her part, it would suggest that she knew deep down inside what kind of creature he was--this would point again to the idea that she needed his death to shock her into changing her opinion (or, rather, into realizing what she'd believed all along). But to me, "why?" is itself a really ambiguous question. She might instead be asking it out of pain. Which would instead point to the idea that Veil's death was the most painful way he had ever hurt her.

I'm starting to think it's more than one thing at once, which would also be fantastic characterization. Maybe Bryony doesn't even know everything she means in that moment of grief.

I'm obviously thinking out loud. I really wish I could have a clear cut opinion, but... this is fun, too.

[JangoCoolguy]

I chalk it up to lazy writing (as usual), but it's always bothered me.

Veil saved Bryony's life and she more or less threw him under the bus. What a *bleep*!

[Tam and Martin]

Bryony probably didn't want to believe that he was evil.

But the real question is: why did she belive that he was good deep down inside unlike everyone else?

Well she had known him probably better than anyone else so that would give a good point. She also may have realized it through other things.

What other things? For his whole life, Veil acted evily. There was never a good deed that he ever did. Whatever he did was always with evil intention.

Well, as I said, she knew him better and maybe he wasn't always evil.

But he acted evil for pretty much the whole book. If he even had some good, it surly would have shown sometime in his life before he died?

I haven't read the book in a while so who said he was evil his whole life?

[Ungatt Trunn]

Bryony probably didn't want to believe that he was evil.

But the real question is: why did she belive that he was good deep down inside unlike everyone else?

Well she had known him probably better than anyone else so that would give a good point. She also may have realized it through other things.

What other things? For his whole life, Veil acted evily. There was never a good deed that he ever did. Whatever he did was always with evil intention.

Well, as I said, she knew him better and maybe he wasn't always evil.

But he acted evil for pretty much the whole book. If he even had some good, it surly would have shown sometime in his life before he died?

I haven't read the book in a while so who said he was evil his whole life?

I clearly remember Veil doing just evil for his whole life. And now, I have anither opinion:
Veil's death seemed to have some affect on Bryony's view on Veil. All of a sudden, she "relizes" that Veil had been bad all along. But isn't it weird that she all of a sudden Veil dies to protect her, the most good act of his whole life? I've seen several intresting idea's about this in this topic, but none seem to make the matter really clear. Bryony should have started to relize Veil's wickedness right before he died, but then have some justification of his character after he scarificed  himself to save another. But it seems to be just the oppasate: Bryony believes in him having some good until the very end, but after he dies heroicly, she relizes the wickedness that was always inside of him. No matter witch way you put it, it will never make complete seance.
Another thing: WAS Veil good deep inside at all? I'm surprised that this question hasn't been covered yet: Was Veil at least a little good? His whole life was spent just doing evil to everybody around him, but then, all of a sudden, risks his life (and loses it) to save Bryony. This might be looked at as a pretty lousy plot turn, but I think I might have the answer. And here it is: Was it the Redwaller's fault that Veil "was" wicked? First of all, lets look at what Veil did to save Bryony: this was obviously an act of selfless heroisum, no matter witch way you put it. He put his life on the line to make sure that Bryony wouldn't be hurt (killed is probably more acurate). Actions can speak more than words. So, can thismean that Veil was good some?
Of course, there can be an argument hat can be used to disprove what was said above: Veil acted evil his whole life at the abbey. He stole, lied, and even tried to poison someone. This can be used to say that Veil was completely evil, no matter what he did in the end (what if him saving Bryony's life was an acsident). Now, this leads to what I said above: was it the creatures at Redwall's fault?
From the moment he was first brought into Redwall, there's one thing about Veil that is inpossable to go unoticed: Veil was a vermin. And, of course, vermin are usually quite bad. Now, here's a question about this: what makes a vermin a vermin? Why can't, per say, an otter become a bad guy? Here's the answer: the lifestyle you were raised in. The creatures at Redwall (and any other place of good creatures) were raised into a place were peace was one of the main foundations of its beliefs. It also is based on the value that any creature of good heart may come in welcomed. But the lifestyle values are completly different when it comes to vermin: they are raised into a world were life is usually about survival. That is probably why allot of vermin (Swart Sixclaw, for example) become sopower hungry: most of there life is spent just surviving, so, when they get wiser and stronger, they set out to have the "best" life they cane have, almost always by using other creatures evily for there own selfish whims. That is why vermin are evil and why most other creature are good. And that probably what became the normal sterioype amongst, per say, Redwallers as to what vermin were on the inside: they are all evil. And thats probably how most of the Redwallers treated Veil as: a vermin. Now, see here that Veil was raised in a good home: a place were values were set upon peace and equilness between all (now, get this) good-considered creatures. Veil could have been raised in the way that all creatures are equil to each other. But, it seems that the whole thing about all good-considered are welcomed was acsepted as the thing at Redwall. Veil was a vermin as a species; but he wasn't a vermin at heart when he was just born. He could have been raised in a way that told him that you can be good. But just because he was a ferret, a vermin species, he was considered to have a vermin heart, whitch is, of course, evil. So, he was basicly treated by most as a vermin. He was probably bullied allot because he was a "vermin", and allot of the older Abbey dwellers probably didn't trust him because he was a vermin. So, even though Veil wasn't raised amoung vermin, he was treated and told, probably many times, that he was a vermin, this probably lead to him acting like a vermin at heart. But Bryony probably saw through the other Redwaller's belief. Vermin arn't bad at heart when first put into existence. But, the way they are raised in the vermin world makes them evil. Bryony must have belived that Veil could be good; but they way Veil was treated by the other Redwallers made him grow up making Veil feel evil and want to do evil. Now, of course, there is a difference bewtween being raised into evil and being told and treated that you are evil. The latter one isn't so perminant as to being evil; if you are just treated and raised as you grow up as a normal good guy, then you can be good. But thanks to the regular steriotype of vermin, Veil was treated and called a vermin. But it appears that some of the good treatment from Bryony really did have some affect on him. Finally, after being cast away from the creatures that treated him as a vermin and away from the common vermin sterotype, Veil probably relized towards the end of his life the meaning of being good. He probably relized this a little bit before he died: thats why he risked his life for Bryony, a very heroic and selfless act that no vermin would usually do. Veil did have some good inside of him thanks to Bryony; it was just that he wasen't really able to act good and didn't "want" to act good because of the views of the creatures around him. But after being away from those views, he finally relized what it really ment to be good, and his final act showed this. After showing all thses facts, there is one conclusion that is hard to disprove: Veil was good inside, he just didn't know until the end of his life.
This whole post might seem a little off-topic, but it really isn't. As I said at the beginning of my post, it will probably never be completly known why Bryony thought of Veil after he died was what it was. Bryony MIGHT have sort of "succomd" in the end to think Veil as evil. But if that is the case, it was probably a wrong view to change to.

I know that this is a pretty long post, and will be a hard burden to those who want to respond to this but have to quote some of it but these are just my two cents on this whole matter. I hope you guys find it helpful!



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[The Shade]

Very interesting. And like Blazemane said, very fascinating how Bryony treats Veil's death, breaking her and making her at the same time by saving her. Btw great post Ungatt!  *Hands out cookies*

[Ungatt Trunn]

great post Ungatt!  *Hands out cookies*

Did you actually read the whole thing? JK

[Tam and Martin]

Very well done Ungatt!

[The Shade]

So, by all this discussion, I think Veil would do good to other one person; Bryony. She cared for him, they grew up together, and I think this factor caused Veil to act like he did, saving her life. If the Redwallers had cared for him in the same way, instead of assuming he would automatically turn evil, he might have cared for them also.

[Tam and Martin]

So, by all this discussion, I think Veil would do good to other one person; Bryony. She cared for him, they grew up together, and I think this factor caused Veil to act like he did, saving her life. If the Redwallers had cared for him in the same way, instead of assuming he would automatically turn evil, he might have cared for them also.

Agreed.

[Ungatt Trunn]

Very well done Ungatt!

Thanks! I think this sets the record for longest post on this Forum ever.
Here's an "epilogue" to my really long post above: I'm not trying to say that the creatures at Redwall are "bad"; but my previous post does cement down one thing: Nobody is perfect. In the Redwall series, BJ dosn't have the wise creature of Redwall ever really make mistakes. But The Outcast Of Redwall, if studied very closly, prevents them from becoming perfect. Pretty much  every creature at Redwall sadly succomed to the vedmin steriotype and treated Veil like one, which made him do evil. If you think about it, there's a good lesson that can be learned from Outcast: The hurt that comes from judging people who they are on the outside, but not for whats in there heart. But you have to look very closely to the story to see this lesson. Just goes to show how great a writer BJ was!

[Faiyloe]

I have something to add to Ungatt's very large post above.

When Outcast of Redwall took place it was soon after Redwall was made and Mossflower had recently been freed. the rules and morals of Redwall had been newly formed. The creatures living there where probably still used to hard living and keeping their guard up I'm sure a lot of them did not grow up in the abbey. I'm sure if Veil had come to the abbey latter on in in it's history he would have been treated with less suspicion.       

[Ungatt Trunn]

I have something to add to Ungatt's very large post above.

When Outcast of Redwall took place it was soon after Redwall was made and Mossflower had recently been freed. the rules and morals of Redwall had been newly formed. The creatures living there where probably still used to hard living and keeping their guard up I'm sure a lot of them did not grow up in the abbey. I'm sure if Veil had come to the abbey latter on in in it's history he would have been treated with less suspicion.       

Hey, I never thought if that....but also keep in mind that Outcast happened many seasons (or years) after Redwall was first build. Allot of the creatures from the previous book in the chronological order (Legend Of Luke) had long since died before Veil ever got there. Its possable that the only two creatures that were alive from the beginning of Redwall were Bella and Abbes Germain (I can't be sure on Germain, though...). But here's an alternitave idea that still fits yours, Faiyloe: even though Redwall was quite old in Outcast, it probably was still developing in means of residents. Probably only some of the creatures currently at Redwall at the current point of Outcast were probably half creature who had lived at Redwall there whole life and creatures who had come from a different land that had many wars and tyrants and stuff like that. So the creatures from other lands were probably not so trustful, so when Veil came along, they probably didn't trust him for his species. And, if you read my large post above, they made him want to do evil, and he did, which made the more trustful creatures not trust Veil eventually. Exept Bryony, of course...

[HeadInAnotherGalaxy]

An' juzt tae add ziz tae ze mix o' zoughtz...

Ze poizonin' zat Veil did vaz zummat zat vaz pretty common in vermin life. It vaz probably juzt zummat like ztealin' zome rationz from yer mate'z travellin' zack like ze 'arez an' goodbeaztz are alvayz daein'. In ozer vordz, for Veil, poizonin' vaz juzt like zecretly puttin' 'otroot pepper in yer mate'z dizh an', tae 'im, zeemed tae nae be zae bad.

O' courze, ziz 'ole zin' might 'ave juzt been zomebeazt'z crazy idea tae get a dizcuzzion goin' vhere everybeazt iz 'ard at vork tryin' tae figure oot vhy vot 'appened 'appened... *'int 'int*