who would win?

[Leatho Shellhound]

Well I still vote for Dannflor, but it would, to me, be a tough fight.

[Rusvul]

Mokkan vanquished all his other siblings, or at least outsmarted them. And about my name being Rusvul, well, I started callin' meself that b'fore I read Marlfox, so, I named meself after me, not after yer father. I don't get what you mean about the mousebabe shattering invisibility, the dibbuns that pretended to be "Marmfloxes"? Or the "Mista Stickabee" scene? In the latter, he wasn't trying to be invisible. And, Janglur Swifteye spotted Ascrod and Vannan, Mokkan was far more masterful, and Dann is a little less observant. And, correct, Mokkan isn't anywhere near a wolverine. Far smarter, less savage, and a little less evil. I mean, at least he didn't EAT his foes. And, Mokkan conducts many 'Tactical Retreats', but also wins several fights, including outsmarting all his siblings and taking the throne. When I said he was fast, I didn't mean at running. In an all-out run, Dann would win. But, you strike at his face, and he's behind you with his axe at your throat. He only lost to the hedgehog maid because she fought ranged, by hurling chains. He would have won hand-to-hand against her.

[Tam and Martin]

The hogmaid was strong from working so she could kill Mokkan from long distance.

[Dannflower Reguba]

That doesn't change that his death was somewhat humiliating.

And no, I'm talking about when the mousebabe wanted to give his soup to the foxes that WERE hiding, not sure if Mokkan was there. When do they EVER compare stealth capabilities? Never, you saying that Mokkan's skill was better is mere blind guess. So when did Mokkan ever win a "fight?" All of his victories were against his own kind, and battles of the wits, so he can beat his siblings, big deal, he's still one of them. I'd like to see Mokkan even TRY to get behind Dannflor, you're acting as if he's your average layabout brawler, you're not going to just "get the drop" on him, especially with Martin's guidance (and that totally counts for this).

In short, we see Mokkan use his axe ONCE, and that's to threaten his brother, we see him run away countless times, we see him lose. His only advantage is his intellect, and Danflor's not stupid.

What mistakes does Dannflower make? He trips on his ALLIES spear, he runs before two different ARMIES, and that's  just about it. He knocks the living daylights out of a vermin leader, smashes a giant fishes skull inside out, frees the slaves.

What kind of comparison is that?

Also, you say "tactical" retreats. There's nothing tactical about running when you're about to lose everything! That's just plain retreat.

You do know I'm not getting aggressive right? I'm just counter stating arguments (er... "debates"  ), I know full-well that I can come across as rude quite easily.

[Rusvul]

Yes. I'm not wanting to be rude either. I enjoy debating, perhaps I have some shrew in me. Mokkan was the most skillful of the Marlfoxes at everything that we see, so it'd follow that he'd be more skillful at vanishing than the others. He lost because he was a villain, and that's the way Redwall works. In the end of the book, the villain dies. Mokkan would have three plans before the battle, and they wouldn't rely on him getting there first, or on each other. You say that all his victories are battles of wits... most of them are. Wit beats strength. Dann has plenty of both, but not as much guile as Mokkan. Not by a long shot. If the Marlfox siblings learned to stand together, and not try to kill each other, they'd have won the day against the Redwallers. So, if Dann is so sure to win, I'd like to see a scenario where he wins. Like, how they move and such.

[Shadowed One]

I think either Gulo or Razzid Wearat would win.

[Maudie]

Gulo The Savage would probably win.

[Dannflower Reguba]

Now I'm just plain out confused. I've got Rusvul talking about moving something or other, and two people who are completely off character! 

Mokkan lost because that's the way the WORLD works. The phrase, "Crime doesn't pay," is one of the truest statements ever made, in the end, it never works.

But that's a bunny trail. As far as Mokkan being better than all his siblings at everything, that's a bad (don't take this personally, it just is) extrapolation. His plans for the most part went awry, he only showed his quickness once (or maybe twice, it's been awhile). You don't know enough about him to say that he's better at everything, that's just a big assumption (one that doesn't fly very well Chemistry). I beg to differ on wit beats strength. If you're about to be crushed by something heavy, I'd much rather have the strength than the wit, wit won't save you. Point being that all is circumstantial. What Mokkan has is manipulation, and acting. We're talking an all out fight. Mokkan has proved himself to be at least somewhat of a coward, Dann places himself in the middle of everything, and shows multiple times that he's a force to be reckoned with, when does Mokkan ever show this trait? He doesn't. All talk, no fight.

Gotta love how no one else cares.  I'd be totally fine with this ending in a tie, but it's just plain blasphemous to say that Dann would lose without question. (where's the confidence in the Abbey CHAMPION gone!)

[Maudie]

Sorry, I got confused when someone said Gulo or Razzid Wearat, I thought it had changed.

My real opinion is that Dannflorr would win, he's one o' my favorite Abbey Warriors

[Tam and Martin]

Yes. I'm not wanting to be rude either. I enjoy debating, perhaps I have some shrew in me. Mokkan was the most skillful of the Marlfoxes at everything that we see, so it'd follow that he'd be more skillful at vanishing than the others. He lost because he was a villain, and that's the way Redwall works. In the end of the book, the villain dies. Mokkan would have three plans before the battle, and they wouldn't rely on him getting there first, or on each other. You say that all his victories are battles of wits... most of them are. Wit beats strength. Dann has plenty of both, but not as much guile as Mokkan. Not by a long shot. If the Marlfox siblings learned to stand together, and not try to kill each other, they'd have won the day against the Redwallers. So, if Dann is so sure to win, I'd like to see a scenario where he wins. Like, how they move and such.

T=Haha I do to. I came out a shrew on a 'What redwall animal are you" quiz 

[Rusvul]

Fair enough, Dann. Many of your points were valid. I relent. However, your quote about being crushed by something heavy, well, the point of wit is to not get to the point where you're definitely going to get crushed. If Dann and Mokkan were to play chess...

[Ungatt Trunn]

If Dann and Mokkan were to play chess...

Now that would be something to see!

[Dannflower Reguba]

After they both learned it first.    That requires more than wit, (I'm pretty good at Chess, I'd know) I'd like to see how that would turn out too as THAT I could see going either way.

[Rusvul]

More than wit, but certainly not strength "Rahh! I will crush your queen under my foot!!" "Um, sir? That's cheating."

[Shadowed One]

But since they are both armed, nobody would ever actually call them cheaters.