who would win?

[MeadowR]

As far as the books go, probably Martin, because he's bigged up throughout the series as this near super-warrior that they all look up to, so it would be weird for him to be beaten.

Thinking away from that, it would certainly be tough to call. 'Over a stream' sounds like a more comfortable placing for Tagg, but I can still see little nimble Martin holding his own.

[James Gryphon]

@Ashleg: Unfortunately I don't have a copy of Martin the Warrior handy to debate this point, but the Redwall wiki at least suggests that it was not as simple as "Badrang drops and cowers on the ground and Martin kills him". Someone can look the worse for wear, even much worse for wear, and still be in fighting form, which judging by the battle (with Badrang being 'everywhere at once', issuing orders), he was.

That said, when you suggest that Martin only beat Badrang because he was already injured, you're implicitly stating that Martin isn't even in Felldoh's league, since he beat Badrang easily. I'm not sure the book backs that up. Felldoh's great but I'd consider him a peer to Martin, like Ranguvar to Luke. I suspect Badrang would have lost to Martin at the beginning, before their respective adventures, given Martin's demonstrated fighting spirit and endurance, and Badrang being cowed by the exhibition of those traits.

We don't know a lot about Tsarmina's upbringing. But the woodlanders stated that it was Lord Greeneyes and his daughter that dealt with woodlander rebellions. I agree that from what we see in Mossflower it's not likely that she has much experience leading and maintaining an army (she generally just tells them to do what her father already taught them), but that doesn't mean she doesn't know how to fight herself. She had some training, given her ability to shoot a bow, and I suspect as the child of a great warlord, like Ungatt himself was ("son of King Mortspear"), she had skills beyond that.

As far as the wolverine thing goes, as I stated in an argument about this in the past, I'm not sure that Tam killing a wolverine is necessarily a greater feat than Martin's:

...we know that cats, of course, have amazingly quick reflexes when they're preying on things, so with that, and the "sidestep" quote I provided in the Matthias topic, I think it's safe to say that Tsarmina is as quick as Martin is -- which, considering her greater size, is definitely a point in her favor. Gulo obviously has a lot more physical resilience, but cats are possibly the most dangerous predators on Earth when it comes to killing small mammals, so the difference between her and Gulo, when it comes to killing smaller creatures, might be a little overrated. Martin's sword is capable of slicing either of them up equally well, so I suspect Gulo's toughness might not be as much of an advantage as Tsarmina's speed. I think his greater strength is almost a moot point, since both the wolverine and the wildcat are going to be much stronger than either the mouse or the squirrel. Comparing a wildcat and a wolverine over their ability to overpower prey mammals is just comparing "overkill" and "even more overkill."

With that in mind, although I agree a wildcat wouldn't fare well in a fight with a wolverine, Martin's sword negates the wolverine's physical toughness, so the wildcat might still be more lethal in a fight against a smaller mammal, because it's as agile as they are and the wolverine isn't.

At any rate, it's worth noting that Tam "got lucky". He didn't win on account of his great skill, strength or determination, he won because he had a certain spirit tell him to sharpen his shield. Martin in his fight didn't even have a shield, much less the advantage of his own ghostly spirit giving him advice.

[The Skarzs]

My choice goes to Tagg. He is bigger than Martin and obviously very well-trained, just like the mouse, but I think will gives him an edge is his overall balance of skills. Martin is definitely a good fighter, but Taggerung I believe was trained in more areas than just fighting, like balance and quick reactions.



What is the argument here?

[James Gryphon]

From how I read it the argument was over whether Martin's a good fighter or not.

The balance/versatility of skills arguments look pro-Tagg, I'm not denying that. I think Martin would do better in a fight to the death and/or on level ground than he would in this specific circumstance.

[The Skarzs]

Aye. Though it would be pretty close I think.

[Ashleg]

@James Gryphon
No, I'm serious, on page 365 of MTW, Badrang actually stops fighting and begs to be spared--and only then is he actually killed.
In the show, they changed that because it probably made Martin seem to be a little like a jerk.

[James Gryphon]

You sort of implied that there wasn't a fight at all, though, which isn't the case.

[Ashleg]

I never said that.
But I did imply that Badrang was weakened prior to the fight, both physically and mentally, which the book does touch on.

[Grond]

@Ashleg: Unfortunately I don't have a copy of Martin the Warrior handy to debate this point, but the Redwall wiki at least suggests that it was not as simple as "Badrang drops and cowers on the ground and Martin kills him". Someone can look the worse for wear, even much worse for wear, and still be in fighting form, which judging by the battle (with Badrang being 'everywhere at once', issuing orders), he was.

That said, when you suggest that Martin only beat Badrang because he was already injured, you're implicitly stating that Martin isn't even in Felldoh's league, since he beat Badrang easily. I'm not sure the book backs that up. Felldoh's great but I'd consider him a peer to Martin, like Ranguvar to Luke. I suspect Badrang would have lost to Martin at the beginning, before their respective adventures, given Martin's demonstrated fighting spirit and endurance, and Badrang being cowed by the exhibition of those traits.

We don't know a lot about Tsarmina's upbringing. But the woodlanders stated that it was Lord Greeneyes and his daughter that dealt with woodlander rebellions. I agree that from what we see in Mossflower it's not likely that she has much experience leading and maintaining an army (she generally just tells them to do what her father already taught them), but that doesn't mean she doesn't know how to fight herself. She had some training, given her ability to shoot a bow, and I suspect as the child of a great warlord, like Ungatt himself was ("son of King Mortspear"), she had skills beyond that.

As far as the wolverine thing goes, as I stated in an argument about this in the past, I'm not sure that Tam killing a wolverine is necessarily a greater feat than Martin's:

...we know that cats, of course, have amazingly quick reflexes when they're preying on things, so with that, and the "sidestep" quote I provided in the Matthias topic, I think it's safe to say that Tsarmina is as quick as Martin is -- which, considering her greater size, is definitely a point in her favor. Gulo obviously has a lot more physical resilience, but cats are possibly the most dangerous predators on Earth when it comes to killing small mammals, so the difference between her and Gulo, when it comes to killing smaller creatures, might be a little overrated. Martin's sword is capable of slicing either of them up equally well, so I suspect Gulo's toughness might not be as much of an advantage as Tsarmina's speed. I think his greater strength is almost a moot point, since both the wolverine and the wildcat are going to be much stronger than either the mouse or the squirrel. Comparing a wildcat and a wolverine over their ability to overpower prey mammals is just comparing "overkill" and "even more overkill."

With that in mind, although I agree a wildcat wouldn't fare well in a fight with a wolverine, Martin's sword negates the wolverine's physical toughness, so the wildcat might still be more lethal in a fight against a smaller mammal, because it's as agile as they are and the wolverine isn't.

At any rate, it's worth noting that Tam "got lucky". He didn't win on account of his great skill, strength or determination, he won because he had a certain spirit tell him to sharpen his shield. Martin in his fight didn't even have a shield, much less the advantage of his own ghostly spirit giving him advice.

I wouldn't necessarily say that Tsarmina is an equally impressive opponent as Gulo or that Martin's sword would negate Gulo's toughness. If you look at the Martin and Tsarmina fight they both inflicted extensive damage against one another- the book states that prior to being driven into the lake Tsarmina's hide was open in more than a dozen places- those are numerous direct hits/slices/stabs from Martin's sword. Martin during the course of the fight was also severely injured in multiple places as it took him close to a month to recover. With the Gulo and Tam fight it seems both opponents were better at avoiding direct hits. Tam managed to dodge one of Gulo's kicks- which the book states would have gutted him. And Gulo only suffered a cut off claw, some fur being shaved off, and a pierced foot. These injuries all happened at the beginning of the fight while Gulo was posturing or trying to intimidate Tam. Another thing to note is that a glancing blow from Gulo's claws ripped open Tam's leg and might have even broken it to as it was in a splint after the fight. One important variable here is the amount of damage Gulo and Tsarmina can inflict. Tsarmina managed to get multiple direct hits on Martin even after she tore off his armour and he still lived to fight, while Tam was nearly crippled by a glancing blow from Gulo. A direct hit from Gulo would probably have been fatal for either Martin or Tam. Tam unlike Martin did not suffer a direct blow from his opponent. Another thing in Tam's favor is that he is a much more composed fighter than Martin. He managed to keep his emotions i.e. anger in check during the fight while Martin charged at Tsarmina blindly at the beginning which is what had allowed her to sidestep him and tear into his back. Also in terms of their opponents Gulo was mentally a far better fighter than Tsarmina- he remained basically "level-headed" throughout the fight and even asked for the claymore to use as assistance. He more or less remained "calm". Also wildcats panic when being bested in combat or being in a life threatening situation and thus stopped thinking clearly- i.e. how Tsarmina died because she started imagining Martin was a huge warrior and started backing into the lake. While the only wolverine to be in a life threatening or mortally wounded in the book- Askor remained fairly level headed and was thinking clearly while being pinned under the tree with a broken back. Panic didn't overtake him or make him hysterical which in a fight could be advantageous. So I would say wolverines have several advantages over wildcats in terms of being more formidable opponents and its not just their greater physical toughness.

[The Skarzs]

Very interesting post, Grond! Thanks for sharing.

[Captain Tammo]

So after some discussion, the victory goes to the Taggerung himself!

New matchup!

Mariel the Warrior from Mariel of Redwall!
Vs.
Triss the Warrior from Triss

It's a one-on-one battle of the [so-called] Sues! It takes place on flat ground with weapons of choice for both fighters

Who would win?!

[Ashleg]

I hate Triss, but I'll vote for her because Mariel's WOC is probably a rope.

[Captain Tammo]

I haven't read Mariel or Triss in a long time, but I feel like I don't want to underestimate Mariel and her gull-wacker. I feel like she showed herself to be pretty dangerous with it, even against enemies with swords and stuff.

[The Skarzs]

Which doesn't necessarily make a whole lot of sense. While the argument for a mace and chain may b made, the rope is. . . Well, rope, and not metal. It can and will be cut eventually.
Even if she has some reach, a competent fighter would do their best to fend off the weapon, and if theirs is a sword, the edge will cut into the rope.
And yes, Mariel may be able to wrap the rope around a weapon and take it from her opponent's grasp. That's a good strategy. However, this will also risk damage to her rope, as the edge of a sword will once again cut into it, possibly even more effectively.

With their normally used weapons, unless Mariel can effectively knock Triss out, I think the fight goes to the squirrel.

However, Mariel has used weapons other than the rope. In The Bellmaker, she used an axe. If she has access to a weapon with good reach like a spear or halberd, she may have a better chance.

[Captain Tammo]

I still think I'm going to go with Mariel on this one (personally, not as the verdict)!

You'd have to have a pretty sharp sword to cut through a stiff rope like the one I imagine Mariel having. Besides, the knot at the end is like a club. There are some angles that she can swing her rope that I imagine would be very difficult to block with a sword without getting tangled.

Then again, it's worth noting that once everything is tangled together, either one could pull their weapon and disarm the opponent at the same time!