Vermin young?

[HeadInAnotherGalaxy]

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean.

Zat iz probably for ze better.

Oh great, a religious book?  Eugh.

Nay, it iznae a religiouz book. Zat'z juzt ze title. Ze ztory iz aboot ziz man vho iz goin' on ziz cruzade an' killin' mutantz becauze 'e believez zat humanz are creationz o' god, vhile mutantz are creationz o' ze devil; zae 'e believez it iz god'z vill for him tae kill mutantz. Ye zhould really read it. Ze endin' turnz oot tae be quite unexpectin'.

[Duxwing]

The good beasts would never kill the vermin young.

These are the same beasts that wiped out Cluny's horde to the last.  No prisoners?  They all fought to the death?  All too convenient.

Think back through the books, Duxwing. In the Outcast of Redwall, did they kill Veil? No they didn't! Yes, yes, I know that you're going to say, they didn't like him and they kicked him out. But wait, the abbey beasts did the same thing to Orkwil Prink! So its not just vermin who are "outlawed" from the Abbey.

Another thing, the abbey beasts spared the lives of the vermin several times. The slave band from the book Mattimeo comes to mind, The vermin army at the end of the book Taggerung, and many more.

I haven't read Taggerung; how large is the army?

Yes, the goodbeasts would never massacre, that would be totally uncharacteristic. I don't think that Brian Jacques would ever have even thought of such a thing, that would turn the goodies into baddies.

You may think that the goodies wouldn't do something like that, but just imagine yourself sitting in your house.  A literal horde of locusts explodes from the wall, ripping and tearing at your flesh.  Bravely you stand your ground and wipe them out with nothing more than your bare hands, your quick wits, and the fire in your belly.  After cleaning up, you go back to sitting.  A week passes.  Another horde comes, this time twice as big.  Laughing despairingly, you dig in by the couch and take them out.  Another week, another horde, another victory.  But this time you've had enough.  You buy twelve cans of Raid, a gas mask, and some rubber piping and fashion yourself a crude chemical warfare suit.  Stepping through the hole, you find a locust breeding pit.  Those locust larvae sure aren't hurting you now, but in just a week they'll be up and at you again.  Time to finish this freak-show for good.  Without a second thought, you open the valve on the rubber piping and unleash the Raid, wiping out hundreds instantly, thousands in a few minutes.  Peeking around, you see more.  Another huge blast of Raid, another ten thousand larvae squeal in pain and hiss as their life juices vaporize.  You stay in there for three hours until you've absolutely wiped out every last creature in your walls.  That sort of extermination is exactly what the Abbeybeasts would do with the vermin.  They wouldn't kill out of spite or hate, but self-preservation.

I can just imagine an elite death-squad roving through the burning vermin city, led by a masked slayer known as "The Verminator". 

-Duxwing

[Rusvul]

You can communicate with vermin young. You can't with locusts. There are other alternatives wih vermin.

[Leatho Shellhound]

These are the same beasts that wiped out Cluny's horde to the last.  No prisoners?  They all fought to the death?  All too convenient.

By that time the abbey beasts had been fighting Cluny's rats for a long, long time...at the end of which he (cluny) was going to enslave or kill them. Also the shrews don't take prisoners as far as I can remember. The shrews (It's been years since I read the book) were the main fighting force!

Also in the book Redwall, Matthias spared the life of one of Clunys vermin!

I haven't read Taggerung; how large is the army?

It was large, very very large!

You may think that the goodies wouldn't do something like that, but just imagine yourself sitting in your house.  A literal horde of locusts explodes from the wall, ripping and tearing at your flesh.  Bravely you stand your ground and wipe them out with nothing more than your bare hands, your quick wits, and the fire in your belly.  After cleaning up, you go back to sitting.  A week passes.  Another horde comes, this time twice as big.  Laughing despairingly, you dig in by the couch and take them out.  Another week, another horde, another victory.  But this time you've had enough.  You buy twelve cans of Raid, a gas mask, and some rubber piping and fashion yourself a crude chemical warfare suit.  Stepping through the hole, you find a locust breeding pit.  Those locust larvae sure aren't hurting you now, but in just a week they'll be up and at you again.  Time to finish this freak-show for good.  Without a second thought, you open the valve on the rubber piping and unleash the Raid, wiping out hundreds instantly, thousands in a few minutes.  Peeking around, you see more.  Another huge blast of Raid, another ten thousand larvae squeal in pain and hiss as their life juices vaporize.  You stay in there for three hours until you've absolutely wiped out every last creature in your walls.  That sort of extermination is exactly what the Abbeybeasts would do with the vermin.  They wouldn't kill out of spite or hate, but self-preservation.

I can just imagine an elite death-squad roving through the burning vermin city, led by a masked slayer known as "The Verminator".

-Duxwing

Were in the Redwall books is there a vermin city with ten thousand vermin young?

You can communicate with vermin young. You can't with locusts. There are other alternatives wih vermin.

Right you are.

[WoodlandWarrior]

If anything I'd picture the Redwallers adopting the vermin young and raising them in accordance with how the Abbey beasts were raised.  They would never slaughter the vermin young...never.

[Duxwing]

By that time the abbey beasts had been fighting Cluny's rats for a long, long time...at the end of which he (cluny) was going to enslave or kill them. Also the shrews don't take prisoners as far as I can remember. The shrews (It's been years since I read the book) were the main fighting force!

You're only furthering my point: the Shrews are goodies, but they take no prisoners.  Imagine them happening upon the source of all vermin, or even just one village.  There would be genocide.

Also in the book Redwall, Matthias spared the life of one of Clunys vermin!

One measly vermin.  What of all the rest, who likely would have surrendered after the losing half their number (most real medieval armies broke and ran after losing only a third)?  And furthermore, why didn't the Abbot call the shrews off?  He was commander in chief.

It was large, very very large!

Now by "spare," do you mean rout and not hunt down?

Where in the Redwall books is there a vermin city with ten thousand vermin young?

There isn't, and the point of this thread is explaining why.    My point is that Brian knew that the goodies would wipe out the baddies permanently if they could, and he didn't want to tell a genocide story or remove his principal antagonists.

You can communicate with vermin young. You can't with locusts. There are other alternatives wih vermin.

Right you are.

No, wrong you are.  Every attempt to raise vermin to be good ends in failure.  Vitch, for example, betrays Redwall to Slagar.  From this data we can induct that Brian intended vermin, as a race, to be categorically and incorrigibly evil.  Therefore, the analogy to locusts is accurate because vermin are evil by nature, not nurture or choice, leaving genocide as the only reasonable way to ensure peace.  I know that such a conclusion may upset those accustomed to wonderful, perfect heroes, but it is the inevitable unfortunate implication of racial absolutes and an object lesson in the evils of bigotry.  Moreover, you really do seem quite upset at the possibility that such unfortunate implications exist; beware the subtle temptations of emotion when reasoning, and you will prosper.

-Duxwing

[Blazemane]

((EDIT: Nevermind; carry on.  ))

[WoodlandWarrior]

I just don't picture Brian Jacques having his Abbey mice being capable of genocide Dux.  That is crazy.  It is not destroying people's images of the heroes he created...he  did create them that way.  He wanted his abbey beasts to be the shining examples of good.  Sure they could have flaws....but genocide and killing off thousands of vermin young....no way.

[Leatho Shellhound]

You're only furthering my point: the Shrews are goodies, but they take no prisoners.  Imagine them happening upon the source of all vermin, or even just one village.  There would be genocide.

We are mainly taking about the abbey beasts. There are lots of good beasts other than abbey creatures that would not take prisoners, rogue crew were even more blood thirsty for vermin blood, as well as Madd.

One measly vermin.  What of all the rest, who likely would have surrendered after the losing half their number (most real medieval armies broke and ran after losing only a third)?  And furthermore, why didn't the Abbot call the shrews off?  He was commander in chief.

Even though it was only one measly vermin, it proves my point that if the had to chose from saving a life or killing it. They would chose to save. And that vermin might have killed good beasts after that, it might have been better for him to have been slain. But they let him live!

The abbot was almost dead! He died right after the battle! And the abbey beast were sick and mad at the vermin for taking their abbey (aswell as hurting their abbot) And they did let a large lot of them go as said in the book quote below. Another thing the sparrows were also in the fight.   And here is a quote from the book
      "Were all the horde slain? Did we take no prisoners at all?"
The badger shrugged wearily. "A lot of them tried to escape. We didn't stop them. They managed to unbar the main gate and ran out into the road. There were a big ginger cat and a white owl waiting for them. Hell's whiskers! I've never seen anything like it!"
     Basil Stag Hare limped up and threw Matthias a wobbly salute. "Squire Julian and Cap'n Snow. You can talk to them later on, young feller.

So they were going to take prisoners and or let them run. As it says there seemed to be a big number that ran from the abbey. But two non-abbey beasts killed them. And it sounds like The badger, Matthias, and Basil weren't to happy about it!

Now by "spare," do you mean rout and not hunt down?

Long patrol hares and abbey beasts had them out numbered and out matched. They let all of them go unharmed.

There isn't, and the point of this thread is explaining why.    My point is that Brian knew that the goodies would wipe out the baddies permanently if they could, and he didn't want to tell a genocide story or remove his principal antagonists.

They would make them move away, they did it with a hord of blood thirsty vermin, why not with babys!

No, wrong you are.  Every attempt to raise vermin to be good ends in failure.  Vitch, for example, betrays Redwall to Slagar.  From this data we can induct that Brian intended vermin, as a race, to be categorically and incorrigibly evil.  Therefore, the analogy to locusts is accurate because vermin are evil by nature, not nurture or choice, leaving genocide as the only reasonable way to ensure peace.  I know that such a conclusion may upset those accustomed to wonderful, perfect heroes, but it is the inevitable unfortunate implication of racial absolutes and an object lesson in the evils of bigotry.  Moreover, you really do seem quite upset at the possibility that such unfortunate implications exist; beware the subtle temptations of emotion when reasoning, and you will prosper.

-Duxwing

Vitch was working for slagar, he was sent there to spy! He would have been betraying slagar if he had become good and lived out his days at the abbey. He didn't even like going to the abbey.
     And you could talk to them. There were good vermin in the books. There was one that made boats, he became good!

-Leatho

[Romsca]

From this data we can induct that Brian intended vermin, as a race, to be categorically and incorrigibly evil.

What about Romsca, Blaggut, Badredd, Balefur, Grubbage, Bluefen, and Barranca? They seemed like good "vermin" to me! WHAT DID THEY DO? And what's wrong with there being MANY peaceful vermin, only they don't attack so they're never in the story?

[HeadInAnotherGalaxy]

You can communicate with vermin young. You can't with locusts. There are other alternatives wih vermin.

Actually, ye can communicate vith locuztz, but ze vay 'ov iz nae kenned yet.

From this data we can induct that Brian intended vermin, as a race, to be categorically and incorrigibly evil.

What about Romsca, Blaggut, Badredd, Balefur, Grubbage, Bluefen, and Barranca? They seemed like good "vermin" to me! WHAT DID THEY DO? And what's wrong with there being MANY peaceful vermin, only they don't attack so they're never in the story?

Ah zorta zink o' Romzca az a Darth Vader type o' vermin, vho at ze end turned oot tae be good.

Blaggut vaz vone o' ze vermin zat only joined 'ordez oot o' fear, zae 'e vaz a good beazt at 'eart.

Badredd an' Balefur vere nae good vermin.

Grubbage did turn oot tae be good, an' Bluefen zoundz like yer kind, gentle motherly type.

An' finally vith Barranca, ah'd zay 'e vaz ztill a vermin, but recognized ze tyranny o' Ublaz an' vaz againzt it.

[BadgerLordFiredrake]

Well, it seems that vermin always grow up with a tendency toward evil, as seen in Outcast of Redwall.  Interesting idea.

[Rusvul]

Darth Rom.

Dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun. Dun dun dun dun dun dun, dun dun dun. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun-dun-dun-dun, dun dun dun-dun-dun, dun dun, dun dun dun, dun dun dun...

[Redwaller]

Ah'd ezpecially reccomend "God Lovez, Man Killz".

Oh great, a religious book?  Eugh.

-Duxwing

If you have something against religion, please be careful with what you say, because that is kind of offending.

[BadgerLordFiredrake]

What does gagged mean?  ANyways, they didn't kill Veil or treat him like a vermin, but he became one anyways.