whos the best warrior in redwall good or bad

[rakkety tam]

Yes but if brian put him in a big batttle i would have liked him more sure he was a great tracker and one on one fighter but we still dont know if he would do good in a big battle.

[rakkety tam]

som1 post something plz

[Popcornman]

taggerung

[DanielofRedwall]

@RT, please don't double post and don't post if you have nothing worthwhile saying.

[rakkety tam]

oh crud i did double post stupid stupid stupid

[Redwall Musician]

I think in this situation it was alright to double post because it had been a long while since someone has.

1.  Double posting (posting two times in a row in the same topic) is strongly discouraged in most cases.  If you wish to add information, edit your original post.  The exceptions to this rule are: if the topic starter wishes to add information which would go unnoticed with an edit, or if a topic had been unused for a long time, and you wish to revive it, then you may double post.

[DanielofRedwall]

Sorry...

[Coobreedan]

Cluny thanks to his awesome tail.

[Plugg Firetail]

Badredd.You gotta love him.

[rakkety tam]

yep he is kindA funny 

[Plugg Firetail]

Also Razzid Wearat.He managed to kill a pike without getting hurt(unlike Cluny,who lost a eye)and was impaled by Martin's sword and didn't die.We see him think of great plans,stave off a rebellion countless times and owns his own castle/horde of vermin.

[James Gryphon]

From my understanding, Razzid Wearat used someone else as bait to distract the pike before he went in, like a coward would do, and then pounced on it while it was attacking someone else, while Cluny went up against his pike head to head, no tricks or cheating. Being a skilled backstabbing sneak isn't the same as being a great warrior or fighter -- it's not really any different from what that rebel shrew, Fenno, did in Marlfox, when he killed the Log-a-Log.

Before coming to Redwall Abbey, Cluny the Scourge was undefeated. He had built up a reputation as a bogeyman due to his many evil deeds. He had also never sustained significant injury doing all of this, by virtue of his great conditioning and skills. When he was injured campaigning against Redwall, all of his subordinates were still so afraid of him they didn't even consider a revolt.

Razzid Wearat, on the other hand, lost before the readers even see him -- before the story started, he had already been defeated by the Rogue Crew, and almost died as a result of it. Then, while he was recuperating, some random ferret began plotting rebellion, and actually won control of the horde.

Cluny recovered from his Martin-induced madness and successfully conquered the Abbey. This isn't any partial victory -- he has everyone tied up or in ##:1162. It then takes the largest good army ever assembled in one place, 1,000 Sparras, 500 shrews, and Matthias, who is the spitting image of Martin the Warrior, to sneak into Redwall, and attempt to rout Cluny's horde -- and even then, Matthias almost loses the fight against Cluny, in spite of having much better weaponry. The Scourge is finally defeated by what has become known as the cheapest trick in the saga, Matthias bringing down the Bell on top of him.

Contrariwise, Razzid did manage to break down the gate and enter the Abbey, but his vermin were then promptly slaughtered by the otters and hares lying in wait for him. Then, while he's running around trying to escape, he is killed when an inexperienced hogmaid with Martin's sword and a Cellarhog with a cudgel tag-team him.

Now, I admit that I have not had the privilege of getting to read The Rogue Crew yet, but it seems to me, from reading the plot description, that Razzid Wearat's reputation might be exaggerated, when compared against the great warlords in Redwall history.

[Lutra]

^ I would almost go so far as to say Razzid's reputation in Rogue Crew was as formidable as it was is because of stories told about him to make him seem undefeatable or one to be feared.  It also helped to have a unique ship and a crew that actually was pretty good at fighting.  These all contribute to his ability to defeat enemies, but he never does it single-handedly.

[Plugg Firetail]

while Cluny went up against his pike head to head, no tricks or cheating.

James,while Razzid used bait to catch the pike,we're not entirely sure Cluny didn't use bait either.

When he was injured campaigning against Redwall, all of his subordinates were still so afraid of him they didn't even consider a revolt.

Razzid Wearat, on the other hand, lost before the readers even see him -- before the story started, he had already been defeated by the Rogue Crew, and almost died as a result of it. Then, while he was recuperating, some random ferret began plotting rebellion, and actually won control of the horde.

While Razzid was defeated before the story began,He was hurt by trying to save his ship.I can also tell you that Cluny was defeated by a mining group.Razzid,on the other hand,was waist deep in seawater,fighting trained fighters.The reason Razzid let Braggio Ironhook(the ferret's name)take control was so Braggio could make a few interesting changes.We also never here of Cluny fighting anything like the Rogue Crew either.All we hear of him is causing landslides and eating pigs.

The Scourge is finally defeated by what has become known as the cheapest trick in the saga, Matthias bringing down the Bell on top of him.

Contrariwise, Razzid did manage to break down the gate and enter the Abbey, but his vermin were then promptly slaughtered by the otters and hares lying in wait for him. Then, while he's running around trying to escape, he is killed when an inexperienced hogmaid with Martin's sword and a Cellarhog with a cudgel tag-team him.

Actually Razzid was killed trying to get into Redwall,not escaping.Now when Tansy(the hedgehog) impaled him through the chest,amazingly,Razzid still lived!The reason he died was because of a concussion.While Cluny died because of a bell,Razzid was able to withstand Martin's sword maybe through the heart.

[James Gryphon]

James,while Razzid used bait to catch the pike,we're not entirely sure Cluny didn't use bait either.

But the fact is that we have no evidence that he did use bait.

He wore a black eyepatch; his eye had been torn out in battle with a pike.

Cluny had lost an eye.

The pike had lost its life!

If it had said, "his eye was torn out by a flailing pike, which he defeated by knocking another rat over to distract it, whereupon he jumped on it and tore into it from above", I would willingly admit that his credentials here are no better than Razzid's.

The fact is, though, that when I read "battle with a pike", I think of something like the Gloomer fighting Stormfin, not a one-sided sneak attack, and I'm willing to bet that that's what everyone else who has read the story thought too, when they first saw it.

So it comes down to the fact that Cluny may have won by a trick, but most likely he didn't, whereas we know for sure that Razzid Wearat did the equivalent of stabbing the pike in the back -- it shows up in the book. From the knowledge we have, I'm inclined to believe that Cluny did a better job.

I can also tell you that Cluny was defeated by a mining group.

Who walked away from that encounter in the end? Cluny's horde, or the miners?

Besides, the mine wasn't as poorly protected as the term "mining group" makes out:

The badgers and other creatures who owned the mine drove them out. Cluny returned by night, and with his band of rats gnawed away and undermined muchof the wooden shoring. This caused the mine to collapse the next day, killing the owners.

Note the reference to the owners -- the "badgers" and other creatures. Badgers, plural.

We're not talking just one badger here, which would be bad enough, since Constance alone inspired fear in all the hearts of the invaders. There was at least two, and possibly even more, since badgers are known to be strong diggers. If there were multiple badgers in those mines -- say, maybe as many as even four or five, I don't think I could discredit even Cluny for being initially repelled by that force.

Anyway, Cluny's record is a bit more distinguished than just "eating pigs":

I have gathered intelligence of other incidents: a farmhouse set alight,
later that same year ... piglets, an entire litter of them eaten alive by rats ... sickness and disease spread through livestock herds by Cluny's army. There was even a report brought to me two years ago by a town dog: an army of rats stampeded a herd of cows through a village, causing chaos and much destruction.

That said, I admit that we don't know as much about Cluny's background as I would personally like. However, the fact that we don't know whether he fought anything like the Rogue Crew doesn't change the fact that Razzid and his crew got demolished by them -- not just once, but twice.

Now when Tansy(the hedgehog) impaled him through the chest,amazingly,Razzid still lived!The reason he died was because of a concussion.While Cluny died because of a bell,Razzid was able to withstand Martin's sword maybe through the heart.

The hedgehog was Posybud; Tansy was the hedgehog in Pearls of Lutra and The Long Patrol.

Unfortunately, like I said, I haven't had the benefit of reading The Rogue Crew, but given that she was an inexperienced fighter, I don't think we can assume Posybud stabbed Razzid right through the heart -- particularly since, when someone is stabbed through the heart, they pretty much always die. Mother Mellus in The Bellmaker was killed by a searat knife when she fell on it and it got into her heart; if a knife through the heart can kill a badger, Martin's sword through the heart can definitely kill a Wearat or any other vermin species one cares to mention.

Finally, Cluny died because he was crushed by a bell. Real-life church bells can weigh tons and tons, so if we assume the Joseph Bell is of similar proportions, it would not be at all unreasonable to assume that it would easily kill someone underneath it.