Redwall over time sort of… decayed.

[WarriorMouse]

Is it just me, or did each successive book that came out become less and less... original? To me, the first three books were literary wonders, (especially for Jacques,) with fantastic narration, connectable characters, and original plot. But with each new book they became more of a formulaic, cut-and-paste plot. Am i the only one that thinks this, or are there others that stayed because of the incredible hook at the start?

[Sable]

For me, the first six books were the best; original, fascinating, heartbreaking. After that, though, I think things entered a decline. The Long Patrol was, in my opinion, the last good book in the series. Beyond that, things did, as you said, become formulaic. In addition, the quality of writing began to deteriorate. By the time Eulalia rolled around there were run-on sentences and too much repetition of the same idea within a page. The reading level went from young adult to third-grade.

So to answer your question, it's not just you.

[Blazemane]

To be honest, beyond the brilliant start Jacques had with Redwall itself (and maybe Mattimeo), it was his middle period that was the strongest for me. The Long Patrol, The Legend of Luke, Lord Brocktree and Taggerung (all written from 1997-2001) have a natural, powerful sense of emotion and conviction to them which makes me wonder if something was going on in Jacques' life at that point in such a way as to influence his writing. At the very least, he seems to have really found his stride into his own fictional world and explored the potential significance of certain ideas which had been there since the beginning of the series. Those last two are my first and second favorite books, so I find it fascinating that they were written back-to-back. For a while, Triss was even near the top of my list, and that was written right after Taggerung. But it's been a long time since I've read it, and I've noticed a lot of criticism for it on the forum, so I think I need to re-read (as for Marlfox, which came after The Long Patrol, it's been way too long since I read it).

But different people obviously like different kinds of things in their books. A lot of readers prefer to have as much room for interpretation in books as possible, and the earlier books do work on a more broad-stroke, epic scale which suggests all sorts of details the reader can be left to fill in. I guess what I'm trying to say is that they feel more like classics and legends. The work they have to introduce the details of the entire Redwall universe makes them more ambitious with the scope of their plots. The books in the middle become more closely controlled by the narrator and more intimate.

For me, too, though, from High Rhulain on, things feel tired. I like every Redwall book, and I want to be able to think that I can come back to these five again and read them with enjoyment. But for the first one, Tiria doesn't really get the opportunity to show her own initiative in the plot, and yet the most central part of the plot has to revolve around her. But Leatho Shellhound is awesome, and so is Mandoral Highpeak. Eulalia has a lot going for it, but after an entire series which hailed the badgers as heroes for their ability to stand up to evil, it felt jarring to watch Gorath being constantly discouraged from and scolded for his bloodwrath. And on that note, many things about character of the Tabura truly annoy me. Doomwyte handles its protagonists rather well, but it feels like the villains spend most of their time hiding in fear; it doesn't feel like much when they're defeated. The Sable Quean feels like the strongest of the last five to me. But for some reason I can't put my finger on yet, it still feels like there's something missing that's supposed to hold its strong elements together and doesn't quite. The Rogue Crew has to hold the weight of being the last book, so I don't know that I can even judge it fairly, but it feels like it has less direction than the rest of the books.

And yet again, there are plenty of people on this forum whose favorite entry is The Rogue Crew or High Rhulain (and there may be some whose favorite is Doomwyte, The Sable Quean or Eulalia, but I can't remember). And that's really cool! It means those books, for whatever we might not see in them, weren't written for nothing.

[Sable]

@Blazemane: I agree, Eulalia was a bit of a departure from tradition with the depiction of the Bloodwrath. In some of the earlier books, Bloodwrath is displayed as less than ideal. For example, in Salamandastron, Urthstripe's Bloodwrath prevents him from withdrawing from the Duel of Chieftains when Ferahgo calls in reinforcements; Rawnblade's slaughter of searats is described with fear by the hares; and of course, Cregga Rose Eyes is openly feared by her allies as well as her enemies. Eulalia goes a step further and turns the Bloodwrath from a dangerous inconvenience into something evil.

I think perhaps it was something Jacques was aiming for all along, using Cregga in particular as well as some of the others to advance it, but the rapid evolution in Eulalia was a little much.

[Starla1431]

A lot of people disliked Eulalia, I must be the only one who actually liked it. Also I don't know which books are consider newer or older. Either way all the books will have some flaws in it, though Mariel of Redwall, Redwall itself and High Rhulain are my least favorite.

[MeadowR]

I definitely noticed a slide in the originality of the books, though it would be perhaps unfair of me now to note any books in particular until I've read through them all again. After a notable gap of not buying any Redwall books, when I got The Sable Queen and Doomwyte I found I enjoyed them; the latter especially. This either shows to me that the books improved a little again, or that's just because I hadn't read any others in a while and had lost the expectation the older books had given for what these ones should be like. (Does that make sense?) So it also can depend which you've read first and how long you've left between reading the novels, as well, as to how one might see the quality.

I'd really like to go through all the books and reply here again with a more tested opinion. That's if I remember.

[Tam and Martin]

A lot of people disliked Eulalia, I must be the only one who actually liked it. Also I don't know which books are consider newer or older. Either way all the books will have some flaws in it, though Mariel of Redwall, Redwall itself and High Rhulain are my least favorite.

My sister really likes Eulalia though I am not much for it. Besides the Guosim and the villains. They were EPIC!

[Cornflower MM]

Eulalia! Was good, and it ranks about middle in my "Top-Ten Fabourite Redwall Books List" I don't really think Redwall decayed - Maybe he was just getting a little old. Who knows? But Redwall is Redwall, no matter if it's YA reading level or J reading level. (And if you don't know what I mean by "YA" and "J", you're in serious trouble and I don't see how you know what section you're in at the library)

[Sable]

@Cornflower: It seems to me that more people liked Eulalia than I thought. I thought it was a fine idea for a book, but the characters, especially the badgers, didn't seem as real to me as, say, Sunflash from Outcast of Redwall.

[Blazemane]

I think all of this positive response to Eulalia is awesome! Again, it shows that Brian Jacques' later books weren't written for nothing--if he hadn't written them, a lot of people would be left without some of their favorite parts of the series.

In fact, my wording "weren't written for nothing" shows my own bias. To those of you who really enjoy some of the later books, the idea of those books being "redeemed" isn't even a consideration. They are, quite simply, great books.

I feel happier now. I can say that the series loses some of its luster for me, but I can't at all say that the series objectively loses some of its luster.

@Blazemane: I agree, Eulalia was a bit of a departure from tradition with the depiction of the Bloodwrath. In some of the earlier books, Bloodwrath is displayed as less than ideal. For example, in Salamandastron, Urthstripe's Bloodwrath prevents him from withdrawing from the Duel of Chieftains when Ferahgo calls in reinforcements; Rawnblade's slaughter of searats is described with fear by the hares; and of course, Cregga Rose Eyes is openly feared by her allies as well as her enemies. Eulalia goes a step further and turns the Bloodwrath from a dangerous inconvenience into something evil.

I think perhaps it was something Jacques was aiming for all along, using Cregga in particular as well as some of the others to advance it, but the rapid evolution in Eulalia was a little much.

You're making a very good point. I wasn't keeping in mind that Cregga's bloodwrath wasn't idealized; it seemed a bit more like a character flaw. Which would mean that the writing about Gorath isn't a new idea--just a more heavily-stated, less ambiguous one.

But, yeah... it still hits me the wrong way. I'll have to give more thought to why.

Lastly, I think it's really interesting that you've pointed out Cregga's role in making the bloodwrath seem like a bad thing, because Cregga and Russano the Wise are the two characters who together tie the stories of The Long Patrol, Marlfox, Lord Brocktree (Russano tells the story in that book) and Taggerung together. Maybe it's yet another connection to add to the writing style Brian Jacques had during that middle period. Were his own opinions on battle-lust shifting, if so, why, and how might this, again, have been tied to whatever may have been going on in his life at the time?

I'm over-analyzing now, but this has got me really curious.

[Ungatt Trunn]

There was one "cut-and-paste" plotline that seemed to be repeated through a few of the books: the traditional quest. Allow me to explain: what usually happens with this type of story line is that one, two and once in a while three or so creatures go off on some quest. Some creature who is forbidden to go with the questers group follows them and is eventually found out, and becomes part of the questing team. As they go on, they face many dangers, but none of them ever really die while allot of the minor characters involved in that given situation do. They eventually reach there destination, and quickly raise an army (usually of any captive good guys) to defeat the bad guys. One of the original questers dies valiantly to add emotional effect. All the bad guys are defeated and the good guys are freed. Then most of the freed good guys and the original creatures return to Redwall (Where else?), and they seem to live happily ever after.
And while this is all happening, some bad guys come to Redwall (Where else?) and try to take it over. They almost succeed, but fail in the end, and sometimes go out rather embarrassingly easy. 
The first time that a plotline like this was used was in Mariel Of Redwall, one of the original six Redwall books. Though it may not be exactly the same as my description above (like some major good guy character dying), it is near the same. Now, I'm not saying that this is a bad plot: Mariel Of Redwall is still a great book, as are all the Redwall books. But I don't like how it seems like the same plotline is used in several Redwall books, just with different characters and events and such. Just compare Mariel Of Redwall to Loamhedge: if you think about it, they are almost identical to each other in the plotline. Other books like Marlfox are also like this. The fact that this plotline is used several times thorought the books makes it feel a little reparative and predictable. 
That's why I think that more diverse story's like The Long Patrol and Rakkety Tam are really great: in both stories, villains are attacking Redwall, but all questers stay within the bounds of Mossflower and are out to help Redwall more than anything else. Or they can be the other way around: in The Outcast Of Redwall, the main storyline is the whole Sunflash/Swartt/Veil thing. The main point of the story, the main outline that all the creatures are following is the Sunflash vs. Swartt thing. And Veil takes a big part in getting Redwall really involved in the story in a great way.
It was also pretty good when the Traditional Quest (I'll call it TQ for now on)would be changed around a bit: in Martin The Warrior, there are questers, they pick up a valuable addition to that group on the way, they face dangers (but the reasons for them surviving are really realistic), reach there destination and....raise a large army. This is quite similar to the TQ plotline: but it is changed around to be so unique, creative and ultimately amazing. Martin The Warrior, in my opinion, is the most well-written and overall best book in the Redwall series: the fact that it is REALLY  well-written can't be disputed. Even though Martin The Warrior follows the TQ plotline, it is still an amazing story and perhaps one of the best in the series. The problem with some of the other books with the TQ plotline is that they all feel "the same". They tend to be pretty predictable and not as interesting as the other books. That's a problem that I see happen allot in the later books; it feels a little like BJ had just ran out of outstanding ideas after a while and just used the TQ thing allot. books like Doomwyte were quite different and stand out as some of the best in the series: but it does look like there was some decay in plotline quality towards the end of the series.

[Rusvul]

Eulalia! Was good, and it ranks about middle in my "Top-Ten Fabourite Redwall Books List" I don't really think Redwall decayed - Maybe he was just getting a little old. Who knows? But Redwall is Redwall, no matter if it's YA reading level or J reading level. (And if you don't know what I mean by "YA" and "J", you're in serious trouble and I don't see how you know what section you're in at the library)

YA and J? Never heard of them in my life- And there was a period of about two years where I went to the library every week. Never been one for reading levels, as I've almost always surpassed the one I was expected to be at, but I think they're probably regional

I think the books did get a bit forumulaic... But what I have more of a problem with is the moral/ethical formula- If someone's a 'good' creature, they're almost unfailingly good. If they're a vermin, kill them on sight. Or else they'll kill you.

[Vilu Daskar]

I didn't think that they got bad.

[JangoCoolguy]

It's certainly not just you, WarriorMouse.

Many of the books made after 2001 or 2 are considered a downward spiral. To be brutally honest, I felt like Jacques ended up slipping into hackery. It actually pains me to say that, but the decline in quality as he kept cranking out tales is hard to overlook.

The really sad part is that at the end he and the series were getting their old spark back...

[The Skarzs]

I don't know, there were only a few books I found difficult to read for their poor content, one of which was the Rouge Crew, which I understand was unfinished at BJ's death . I have yet to re-read some books, so I'll need to pay closer attention next time.